Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

How big is the permadeath ultra hate is? PART 2

2

Comments

  • madazzmadazz A town, ONPosts: 1,564Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Starpower
    Originally posted by exdeathbr

    Usually when talking about permadeath here, permadeath haters complain alot about permadeath, no matter what pemadeath system another user propose.

     

    Nobody here complains about permadeath when brought up. When people dislike a feature they will tell you they don't like it and most likely, avoid the game that has said feature. That's hardly the same as complaining. That's just avoiding something you dislike.

     

    People only complain about things they have to deal with in one shape or another. Permadeath isn't one of them. It's one of those things you can easily avoid

    What forums have you been on? There are some that deal with it as you suggest, but overall I disagree. Look up any thread on open world PvP and read the complaints. 

    Also, you aren't forced to deal with anything. If the game has something you don't like, don't play it. Simple as that. Too bad most don't see it that way.

  • madazzmadazz A town, ONPosts: 1,564Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BrotherD

    If you want to try permadeath just go try 'Realm of the Mad God' and see if you like it. Personally I don't. You get tired of permadeath pretty fast.

    I don't have a problem with servers with permadeath for those that want it. But I think it is a minority which is why hardly any MMO's have it.

    I agree 100%. Not my thing either. Maybe in quick little games or something, but not in an MMO where I want to invest into it.

  • dinamsdinams Muriae, VAPosts: 1,362Member

    I would only play such a game if the people died on real life too when they die in-game

    why?

    because it would stop "I will kill you for lulz"

    "It has potential"
    -Second most used phrase on existence
    "It sucks"
    -Most used phrase on existence

  • gandalesgandales Pembroke Pines, FLPosts: 464Member

    Ironically, the main problem with permadeath would be those who does not have a life. Can you really kill them?

     

    Jokes aside, for permadeath to be bearable you will need to take care of many inequalities between players:

     

    1) Time. Those with more time will level faster and kill those who play less.

    2) PKs needs to be controlled, meaning that your world should react to PKs by put killers in jail or some price on their heads.

    3) No chance of unexpected lags and differential delays depending on client-server distance.

     

    If not, I don't think it would be possible to get enough players to justify the feature.

     

     

  • MalcanisMalcanis LondonPosts: 3,191Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    I think you are building up an imaginary opposition to your point of view. People just don't care playing permadeath games. There's no hate.

    Then it's difficult to explain some of the reactions to the news that World Of Darkness will have a form of permadeath - including your own, if I recall correctly.

     

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/344929/World-of-Darkness-will-have-permadeath-per-CCP.html

    http://www.mmorpg.com/mobile/forums.cfm?ismb=1&threadId=345302

    "Posts: 3190 Joined: 1/28/05
    Elite Member Quirhid 

    Ugh permadeath... say goodbye to PvP because this game will hardly have any. Gank-tastic."

     

    Give me liberty or give me lasers

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Malcanis
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    I think you are building up an imaginary opposition to your point of view. People just don't care playing permadeath games. There's no hate.

    Then it's difficult to explain some of the reactions to the news that World Of Darkness will have a form of permadeath - including your own, if I recall correctly.

     

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/344929/World-of-Darkness-will-have-permadeath-per-CCP.html

    http://www.mmorpg.com/mobile/forums.cfm?ismb=1&threadId=345302

    "Posts: 3190 Joined: 1/28/05
    Elite Member Quirhid 

    Ugh permadeath... say goodbye to PvP because this game will hardly have any. Gank-tastic."

     

    That's ultra hate?

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • exdeathbrexdeathbr colatinaPosts: 137Member Common
    Originally posted by Halc4

    I find it kind of funny how you start off saying "Sometimes they even compare it with the guy that like permadeath system deleting his char (in a normal mmorpg game withouth permadeath) ." then you go on to make your new poll idea where the game is 100% the same, just you essentially are forced to delete your character on one server. So the only difference is that everyone else has to start over if they die too. To me, that's essentially the same thing. You only dislike the idea of deleting your own character on a 'normal' non-permadeath game because everybody else isn't forced into doing it too. Really this is no different than being on a permadeath server with a group of more aggressive players who are less prone to be cautious and more likely to attack you on sight.

     

    In the permadeath server the player is not forced to delete if he dies, because he can't do it, his char is automaticaly deleted by the game when a player dies on permadeath server.

    Also some ways why pérmadeath server and deleting your char when you die are different things:

    Gameplay A: Npcs are attacking your city, you and your friends are defenting it.

    You delete your char when you die: All your friends will be able to respawn to help your to defend your city.

    Permadeath:People start again when they die and so you would have less reinforcements.

     

    Gameplay B: A sandbox game that is like ultima online. You have a friend that is a very good blacksmith.

    You delete your char when you die: This blacksmith guy will be able to help people again.

    Permadeath: The world will lose a very good blacksmith, this guy will not be able to help you.

     

    Originally posted by Halc4

    I'm not totally against permadeath games existing, but I still voted no, because you're ignoring the effect having a permadeath server at all would have on the overall game design. Permadeath and non-permadeath gameplay really don't mix all that well in the long run, one has to suffer to make the other interesting. Or maybe you recognize this, and this is why you don't want to just delete your character on a game without permadeath.

    I never said anything about how the gameplay would be (other than saying that the game will have one server with permadeath and another without it), if its needed for you just assume that the gameplay will not be changed because of fact the game has permadeath. I mean if that is needed to make the permadeath part exist, we only have this choice (because the other one would mean [as in your vote] having no permadeath server to start it).

     

    Originally posted by Halc4

    All that aside, the people who don't want any permadeath game to be made ever realize that there's a finite number of resources in the world. There aren't an infinite number of game developers, so for every permadeath game made, essentially one less game of another style isn't made. This is why people often want only games(or movies, or TV shows) they like to be made and want all others to fail so they're less likely to make similar in the future, and more likely to make what said person enjoys. It's actually fairly rampant on these forums... And yeah, it's a rather self-centered view point, but it's rather logical in its own way.

    You talk like if almost every game was made with permadeath, and if some permadeath games were good.

     

    Originally posted by gandales

    Jokes aside, for permadeath to be bearable you will need to take care of many inequalities between players:

     

    1) Time. Those with more time will level faster and kill those who play less.

    2) PKs needs to be controlled, meaning that your world should react to PKs by put killers in jail or some price on their heads.

    3) No chance of unexpected lags and differential delays depending on client-server distance..
     

    You are assuming things, I never said this game would have or not pvp .

     

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    WARNING: do not play the drinking game where you take a drink everytime the OP says "permadeath".... you will die.
  • ThrennieThrennie LeedsPosts: 107Member
    While it's not for me I don't see why they should not create perma death servers alongside RP and PvP/PvE. After all I believe that's what they did with EQ1.
  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    Originally posted by Thrennie
    While it's not for me I don't see why they should not create perma death servers alongside RP and PvP/PvE. After all I believe that's what they did with EQ1.

    The truth of it is the servers would be dead and it would be a drain of resources, that is why.

     

    Some people think they want permadeath, but when they've spent 60 hours getting all that they have and then lose it all in an instant, needing to start over... they will quit. It also leads to more boring gameplay. Why would you ever take risks if the result could be losing everything? You wouldn't. You would spend your time leveling slower by killing lower level mobs to make sure you never even come sloe to dying. That will also cause people to get bored and quit.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,680Member Uncommon

    I read this thread and your previous thread, and I haven't really seen answers to the questions you should ask regarding any mechanic you are looking to design:

    Since this is a consequence or result of player action, what is the fun factor or entertainment value of it for the player?

    What is the game issue this is designed to solve?

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • exdeathbrexdeathbr colatinaPosts: 137Member Common
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by Thrennie
    While it's not for me I don't see why they should not create perma death servers alongside RP and PvP/PvE. After all I believe that's what they did with EQ1.

    The truth of it is the servers would be dead and it would be a drain of resources, that is why.

     

    Some people think they want permadeath, but when they've spent 60 hours getting all that they have and then lose it all in an instant, needing to start over... they will quit. It also leads to more boring gameplay. Why would you ever take risks if the result could be losing everything? You wouldn't. You would spend your time leveling slower by killing lower level mobs to make sure you never even come sloe to dying. That will also cause people to get bored and quit.

    When you play a permadeath game, you already know from the start you can lose everything, when you die. If you can't take it you dont play the game.

    If you think you can take it, but after dying for the first time see that you can't, you say to yourself  "sorry but permadeath is too much for me, I will play another game"

    The ones that will really play the game will not be angry, because they know from the start the game is like that, and if they are still playing its because they know they can handle it.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,680Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by exdeathbr
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by Thrennie
    While it's not for me I don't see why they should not create perma death servers alongside RP and PvP/PvE. After all I believe that's what they did with EQ1.

    The truth of it is the servers would be dead and it would be a drain of resources, that is why.

     

    Some people think they want permadeath, but when they've spent 60 hours getting all that they have and then lose it all in an instant, needing to start over... they will quit. It also leads to more boring gameplay. Why would you ever take risks if the result could be losing everything? You wouldn't. You would spend your time leveling slower by killing lower level mobs to make sure you never even come sloe to dying. That will also cause people to get bored and quit.

    When you play a permadeath game, you already know from the start you can lose everything, when you die. If you can't take it you dont play the game.

    If you think you can take it, but after dying for the first time see that you can't, you say to yourself  "sorry but permadeath is too much for me, I will play another game"

    The ones that will really play the game will not be angry, because they know from the start the game is like that, and if they are still playing its because they know they can handle it.

    Be sure to build for that size audience.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • erictlewiserictlewis Cottondale, ALPosts: 3,026Member Uncommon

    I read the main thread and had to go what the heck.  I finially figured out what he meant but honestly if you want folks to participate in your thread, learn to write English, or get a grammer/spell checker op.  I don't normally complain but heck that entire thread sentance did not even make since.

    As far as permadeath, I already play that game, it is called life and one day bam.  No thanks don't need it in games I play to escape reality.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Optional permadeath works in D3. I don't see why it should not work in other games.

    Sure, i will never play it .. but there are those who will.

  • Zipp_23Zipp_23 PraguePosts: 25Member

    There are games based on PD - like DayZ (not a game, just a mod.. I know) and it has its fans (I play it too, and I enjoy it)

    Also optional PD in D2/3 is a cool thing for me. Its a bigger challenge, you must play a different style (you kinda have to balance all your stats, you cant play just a pure "glass cannon" with no HP). I like it. BUT there is one big issue in D3 - your char CAN and most likely WILL sooner or later die coz of a lag spike or something like that. So IMO optional PD is a good thing, but not when you need to be constantly connected to net.

    Coz when you play HC char in D3, you kinda count with fact that your char will die. But loosing your char coz of a net connection can realy piss you off.

  • StonesDKStonesDK SomewherePosts: 1,805Member
    Originally posted by madazz
    Originally posted by Starpower
    Originally posted by exdeathbr

    Usually when talking about permadeath here, permadeath haters complain alot about permadeath, no matter what pemadeath system another user propose.

     

    Nobody here complains about permadeath when brought up. When people dislike a feature they will tell you they don't like it and most likely, avoid the game that has said feature. That's hardly the same as complaining. That's just avoiding something you dislike.

     

    People only complain about things they have to deal with in one shape or another. Permadeath isn't one of them. It's one of those things you can easily avoid

    What forums have you been on? There are some that deal with it as you suggest, but overall I disagree. Look up any thread on open world PvP and read the complaints. 

    Also, you aren't forced to deal with anything. If the game has something you don't like, don't play it. Simple as that. Too bad most don't see it that way.

    That's a whole other issue isn't it? Not really about permadeath but more about 'argh!!! this shiny isn't made specifically for me like all games should' mentality, which I don't get either. You can pretty much extend those same whiners to any gamefeature that they disagree on.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Zipp_23

    There are games based on PD - like DayZ (not a game, just a mod.. I know) and it has its fans (I play it too, and I enjoy it)

    Also optional PD in D2/3 is a cool thing for me. Its a bigger challenge, you must play a different style (you kinda have to balance all your stats, you cant play just a pure "glass cannon" with no HP). I like it. BUT there is one big issue in D3 - your char CAN and most likely WILL sooner or later die coz of a lag spike or something like that. So IMO optional PD is a good thing, but not when you need to be constantly connected to net.

    Coz when you play HC char in D3, you kinda count with fact that your char will die. But loosing your char coz of a net connection can realy piss you off.

    One more comment about D3 HC char (note that i do NOT play HC). While it sounds like it is easy to die, there are many people make it to high level.

    I just check on diabloprogress.com. The highest person make it to paragon level 89. There seems to be a lot make it to at least L60.

    I suppose you have to play very very carefully.

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    Originally posted by exdeathbr
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by Thrennie
    While it's not for me I don't see why they should not create perma death servers alongside RP and PvP/PvE. After all I believe that's what they did with EQ1.

    The truth of it is the servers would be dead and it would be a drain of resources, that is why.

     

    Some people think they want permadeath, but when they've spent 60 hours getting all that they have and then lose it all in an instant, needing to start over... they will quit. It also leads to more boring gameplay. Why would you ever take risks if the result could be losing everything? You wouldn't. You would spend your time leveling slower by killing lower level mobs to make sure you never even come sloe to dying. That will also cause people to get bored and quit.

    When you play a permadeath game, you already know from the start you can lose everything, when you die. If you can't take it you dont play the game.

    If you think you can take it, but after dying for the first time see that you can't, you say to yourself  "sorry but permadeath is too much for me, I will play another game"

    The ones that will really play the game will not be angry, because they know from the start the game is like that, and if they are still playing its because they know they can handle it.

    You first statement and second contradict.

     

    The fact is most people who THINK they like this system will end up hating it. Gamers always think certain things sound great and should be implemented and then hate it when they run into it.

     

    So the fact is that the server will start with a less than full population. As people realize how frustrating the system is they will quit and go to the option without permadeath and the server will die off.

     

     

    There is also the fact that when there is an easier option at all, more people gravitate to it. If you made an MMO where on one server the quest NPCs had highlights, the spots were marked on a map, you got detailed dungeon maps etc etc with all the hand holding tools and then made a server where there wasn't a single hand holding tool. People would flock to the hand holding. Yet if you created the same game and didn't give the option of hand holding, the servers would be far more full than the non-handholding servers were with the option.

     

    So just by having the option to play the same game without permadeath lowers the amount of people who will play with it.

  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Chicago, ILPosts: 2,238Member Uncommon

    I don't think asking "how can we make death more 'painful'" is the right question to ask.

    I think the question we should be asking is, "how can we make death more interesting?"  We never seem to ask that question, but it seems to me that this is the question some are trying to answer with "permadeath."

    Because permadeath, all other things being equal, is just plain boring--and not only that--but I would argue it takes out any and every opportunity to make death interesting.

    I liken it to a dungeon with a "perma lockout timer."  In other words, you can only do the dungeon once, and if you die, exit, or get booted out, your character won't be allowed in to reenter the dungeon.  Ever.

    How does a perma-lockout timer make raiding more interesting?  It doesn't, really.  It increases the stakes, of course, but does raising the stakes, in this case, make raiding better?  I would argue that if raiding isn't better before perma-lockout timers, it won't be better afterwords and--if anything--will only make raiding worse.

    And I imagine it would be the same thing with permadeath, but even more extreme.  Because, honestly, what is permadeath other than a simplistic attempt to mess with something that is pretty boring as it is?

    See, I don't think anyone here would have a problem with harsh--perhaps extremely harsh--death penalties, but it would have to be interesting.  Does a resurrection require a special ceremony?  Player crafted goods?  A special quest?  A combination of all of the above?  If so, then death facilitates a minigame that gets people involved.

    But permadeath?  It answers the question of "how do we make death interesting?" by refusing to even ask the question.

    __________________________
    "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
    --Arcken

    "...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
    --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

    "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
    --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  • StonesDKStonesDK SomewherePosts: 1,805Member

    Permadeath could work as a mainstream feature, but the progression system would have to be tweaked to accomodate it so it doesn't feel punishing.

     

    Furthermore I also believe there's a way to actually make wanting to start over almost desired, if the gameplay gives you a unique experience every time worth discovering. But to pull those things off, the way MMOs are approached in development would have to be turned upside down and revised.

     

    You would essentially have to sacrifice the fear of dying which is what permadeath advocates play for. Then the hardcore playerbase would complain how their beloved feature has been WoWified and cry about the feature becoming mainstream.

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    All those saying have a permadeath server  can it seems only imagine their own game with permadeath. A game with permadeath or meaningful PvP for that matter needs to built from the ground up with that in mind, not tacked on to a server of some random gear grind themepark.
  • busdriverbusdriver nyPosts: 859Member
    Originally posted by RefMinor
    All those saying have a permadeath server  can it seems only imagine their own game with permadeath. A game with permadeath or meaningful PvP for that matter needs to built from the ground up with that in mind, not tacked on to a server of some random gear grind themepark.

    Ditto.

    OP's idea of a tacked on PD server is a really crappy idea.

     

  • Zipp_23Zipp_23 PraguePosts: 25Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Zipp_23

    There are games based on PD - like DayZ (not a game, just a mod.. I know) and it has its fans (I play it too, and I enjoy it)

    Also optional PD in D2/3 is a cool thing for me. Its a bigger challenge, you must play a different style (you kinda have to balance all your stats, you cant play just a pure "glass cannon" with no HP). I like it. BUT there is one big issue in D3 - your char CAN and most likely WILL sooner or later die coz of a lag spike or something like that. So IMO optional PD is a good thing, but not when you need to be constantly connected to net.

    Coz when you play HC char in D3, you kinda count with fact that your char will die. But loosing your char coz of a net connection can realy piss you off.

    One more comment about D3 HC char (note that i do NOT play HC). While it sounds like it is easy to die, there are many people make it to high level.

    I just check on diabloprogress.com. The highest person make it to paragon level 89. There seems to be a lot make it to at least L60.

    I suppose you have to play very very carefully.

    Yes, I agree that you have to play very carefully :) Also I think that it is possible to get your char to very high level. But you need a bit of luck too. I remember when there was a lag spike on US server (before patch with paragon levels) that actualy killed few thousands HC chars in a few seconds :D. I bet many keyboards were broken in the very same time :D

  • exdeathbrexdeathbr colatinaPosts: 137Member Common
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

    You first statement and second contradict.

     

    The fact is most people who THINK they like this system will end up hating it. Gamers always think certain things sound great and should be implemented and then hate it when they run into it.

     

    So the fact is that the server will start with a less than full population. As people realize how frustrating the system is they will quit and go to the option without permadeath and the server will die off.

     

     

    There is also the fact that when there is an easier option at all, more people gravitate to it. If you made an MMO where on one server the quest NPCs had highlights, the spots were marked on a map, you got detailed dungeon maps etc etc with all the hand holding tools and then made a server where there wasn't a single hand holding tool. People would flock to the hand holding. Yet if you created the same game and didn't give the option of hand holding, the servers would be far more full than the non-handholding servers were with the option.

     

    So just by having the option to play the same game without permadeath lowers the amount of people who will play with it.

    The lack of people on the permadeath server compared with the other one is not a problem. Also, in theory if this is a needed things to make the server exist (so, people not "ban" it), well thats the only thing that can be made.

    Also, if most players that join the permadeath server think they can handle it, but see they can't and they leave, this is not a problem. I mean in theory this is a good thing, at least they tried the game.

     

    Originally posted by busdriver
    Originally posted by RefMinor
    All those saying have a permadeath server  can it seems only imagine their own game with permadeath. A game with permadeath or meaningful PvP for that matter needs to built from the ground up with that in mind, not tacked on to a server of some random gear grind themepark.

    Ditto.

    OP's idea of a tacked on PD server is a really crappy idea.

     

    But some would like this idea (permadeath in a grind game),  some would love the idea even if was just WOW with permadeath (without any gameplay other than that being changed).

    So those guys would have a server to play and( with that idea I am posting here) would not influence other players that hate permadeath with their souls.

2
Sign In or Register to comment.