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Anet has to do something about teleporting exploits

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  • BetakodoBetakodo Poor land, FLPosts: 338Member
    Originally posted by botrytis

    Blizzard has around 7300 employess - http://www.qj.net/mmorpg/tutorials/blizzard-fires-600-employees.html

     

    EA has around 7700 also - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Arts

     

    A.Net has 250+ employees http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/ArenaNet

     

    There is a huge discrepency here in number of employees. A.Net will get to them - they did in GW1 and will in GW2.

    How many people in those first two companies actually touch the code? Arenanet is more of a programmer's company started by programmers, who then have the aid of NCSoft as the publisher. I sort of question how many GMs they have. Yeah, Anet  may be fixing it slowly, but they're probably more interested in rolling in the dough and making an expansion that they think will have as many buys as GW2.

    Client side in a MMO? I don't think even Korean F2P games do that anymore. Maybe  5 years back, but not now.

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Virginia, VAPosts: 2,131Member
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Originally posted by Amana
    Remember that posting videos or any links that show how to recreate an exploit are not allowed on here.

    damnit did I miss it?

    You didn't miss anything that you can't find easily in a Youtube search: name of MMO + speedhack.

     

    The point is that they all have them and continue to have them despite a naive belief by some fans that "MMO "X" has totally eliminated it."

     

    Anyone who has ever worked in anti-cheating (or anti-piracy) implementations can tell you that it's always a moving target: as soon as you implement a new method someone wil find a way around it--be it lag-exploits, packet sniffing or the hundreds of other ways to manipulate client/server interactions.

     

    As a matter of fact, calling something "hack-proof" is the surest way to have someone hack it quickly--it's like waving a red flag in front of the pirates and cheaters.

     

    This was my point above: There is no reason to bash GW2 in any way because cheaters are cheating. The quantity of teleporting bots has a lot more to do with the gold-farmer's market created by the game's popularity than anything Arenanet has done, is doing or will do to counteract it--at the moment at least, GW2 and WOW are far ahead of the MMO pack by a country mile when it comes to potential gold buying customers.

     

    But hey, start a topic about the skies being nice to look at in GW2 and there will be 20 posts in 5 minutes here telling us how Anet could have had 3D skies instead of painted 2D ones and that the reason they cheaped-out is that it's not a sub game...if it was a sub game they could afford to hire a proper sky team image

     

    Yet, Perfect World, the Korean F2P company) managed to stop speed hacking at latest in 2008 in their flagship "Perfect World" back then through presumebly server checks (which is why people other than the alledged speedhackers saw them walking normally). There are certain videos where people claim to have speed-hacked it, but they are either refering to private servers or don't note that when you travel sufficientely large distances, the new npcs and monsters wont load graphically until the "actual time required to reach there normally" has passed, which indicates that the server is keeping an eye on the position and traveling speed of the character. 

     

    Other Korean F2P games automatically "jumps" you back to your real position, if you travel too fast. Given that NCSoft is a Korean company, I expected better from them.

     

    To really prove that someone is teleport hacking or speed-hacking, you need to be the observer and not the actual person hacking, that way you can see whether they interact and move at accelerated speed or not. 

     

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by Betakodo
    Originally posted by botrytis

    Blizzard has around 7300 employess - http://www.qj.net/mmorpg/tutorials/blizzard-fires-600-employees.html

     

    EA has around 7700 also - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Arts

     

    A.Net has 250+ employees http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/ArenaNet

     

    There is a huge discrepency here in number of employees. A.Net will get to them - they did in GW1 and will in GW2.

    How many people in those first two companies actually touch the code? Arenanet is more of a programmer's company started by programmers, who then have the aid of NCSoft as the publisher. I sort of question how many GMs they have. Yeah, Anet  may be fixing it slowly, but they're probably more interested in rolling in the dough and making an expansion that they think will have as many buys as GW2.

    Client side in a MMO? I don't think even Korean F2P games do that anymore. Maybe  5 years back, but not now.

    Client side? Your characters are stored on their server. Most games are client/server - oops client/cloud-based (different name, same idea). Does anyon actually understand programming of games on this site? I wonder.......

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Phry
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by DMKano

    We've seen bots teleport all over the place in youtube videos - tonight first time I've seen a player that was teleporting from node to node for insta gathering.

    This dude was able to jump at ANY point in the zone instantly - a buddy of mine was on the far north of the zone - I was in the south - this joker manged to pop from south to north and back in less than 10s - there are NO TELEPORTS nearby.

    I reported him - it's pretty disgusting that Anets server code has no checks for client side map point jumping. You'd think that it would be pretty easy to detect a client jumping across the entire zone without the use of teleports and back???

    Damn bots!

    They are working on it. I'll have to see if I can find the statement, but they are pooling the information they are gathering on botters / hackers and planning to deal w/ them all at once, via a series of large bannings.

    The reason they are waiting to do this, is because hackers / botters can easily figure out what gave them away if you start banning them too quickly. By waiting a bit and dealing w/ them all at once, there's no derivable pattern for someone to look at and circumvent.

    thats right if they wait a while, they can take them by surprise, like. leap out from behind a bush just after they teleport to the node, and shout 'ahah caught you, you nasty teleporting hacking scoundrel'  ....  on the other hand, because its mostly client side, they probably can't tell who is doing what, never mind with whom..  i mean, unless they all decide to wear stripy clothing and wear a mask and carry a bag with swag on it.. image

    security, you get what you pay for.. and arenanets take on it, is that they have no choice but to rely on their players to not hack into their game. When online gaming first came out a decade or so ago, that kind of thing might have worked.. some.. but now, not a chance in hell. image

    Lol, not quite. The truth is botters & hackers are smart enough to keep track of how they are exploiting the system at any given time. If a company immediately bans a botter / hacker everytime someone sees one, then it's really easy for the hackers & botters to tell how they were caught. That's just a fact.

    As for Anet's 'lack of a response'. The games barely over a month old, and people are already forgetting that they've banned a few thousand of them.

    That doesn't stop botters from creating new accounts & trying again. Like they do. In every single popular MMORPG. Just because they are there, doesnt mean there's nothing being done about them. Anet has shown pleanty of ban hammers, and managed to lower the amount of hacked accounts quite significantly thus far.

    That's not to say that their security doesn't need work, but to say that they aren't actively working on it is a bit of an overreaction.

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKPosts: 8,553Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin

     

    Anyone who has ever worked in anti-cheating (or anti-piracy) implementations can tell you that it's always a moving target: as soon as you implement a new method someone wil find a way around it--be it lag-exploits, packet sniffing or the hundreds of other ways to manipulate client/server interactions.

    It is an always moving target - however there are ways of dealing with speed-hacks which are the oldest type of hack that were in games like UO and EQ 13 years ago! Even back then they had code that was flagging players that were moving faster than any in-game means possible and those players were flagged and banned. There is nothing you can do on the client side to "disguise" this - no matter how well you manipulate the packets as the server checks for delta in player positioning during gameplay - if it exceeds some given set of variables - you get flagged - again this is done 100% server side.

     

    This was my point above: There is no reason to bash GW2 in any way because cheaters are cheating. 

    So it's the hacker's fault for Anet not inculding server side checks for speed-hacks and teleports? 

    I think it's ok to give Anet some slack - GW2 is still very new, but hackers are going to rip your product to shreds if you make it easy for them to do so.

     

  • TeknoBugTeknoBug Calgary, ABPosts: 2,156Member


    Originally posted by botrytis

    Originally posted by Betakodo

    Originally posted by botrytis Blizzard has around 7300 employess - http://www.qj.net/mmorpg/tutorials/blizzard-fires-600-employees.html   EA has around 7700 also - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Arts   A.Net has 250+ employees http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/ArenaNet   There is a huge discrepency here in number of employees. A.Net will get to them - they did in GW1 and will in GW2.
    How many people in those first two companies actually touch the code? Arenanet is more of a programmer's company started by programmers, who then have the aid of NCSoft as the publisher. I sort of question how many GMs they have. Yeah, Anet  may be fixing it slowly, but they're probably more interested in rolling in the dough and making an expansion that they think will have as many buys as GW2. Client side in a MMO? I don't think even Korean F2P games do that anymore. Maybe  5 years back, but not now.
    Client side? Your characters are stored on their server. Most games are client/server - oops client/cloud-based (different name, same idea). Does anyon actually understand programming of games on this site? I wonder.......
    Oh you're talking about data storage, the actual gameplay activity you do with your character is client side. Most games are developed with client side detection these days, in Battlefield 3 there is a hack where you can stand in the spawn and swing your knife and kill someone at the other side of the map with it- THAT's client side, regardless of your character/profile/stats being stored on the servers.


    I have no idea why devs choose to create games with client side in mind, 10 years ago 99% of games were server side and now that hacks are more advanced, client side games are just so much easier to hack than server side games.

    image
    image

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,616Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by Iselin

     

    Anyone who has ever worked in anti-cheating (or anti-piracy) implementations can tell you that it's always a moving target: as soon as you implement a new method someone wil find a way around it--be it lag-exploits, packet sniffing or the hundreds of other ways to manipulate client/server interactions.

    It is an always moving target - however there are ways of dealing with speed-hacks which are the oldest type of hack that were in games like UO and EQ 13 years ago! Even back then they had code that was flagging players that were moving faster than any in-game means possible and those players were flagged and banned. There is nothing you can do on the client side to "disguise" this - no matter how well you manipulate the packets as the server checks for delta in player positioning during gameplay - if it exceeds some given set of variables - you get flagged - again this is done 100% server side.

     

    This was my point above: There is no reason to bash GW2 in any way because cheaters are cheating. 

    So it's the hacker's fault for Anet not inculding server side checks for speed-hacks and teleports? 

    I think it's ok to give Anet some slack - GW2 is still very new, but hackers are going to rip your product to shreds if you make it easy for them to do so.

     

    The fact that speed hacks and other cheats were around 13 years ago is irrelevant. Do you suppose they're using the same methods and code from 1999? Somehow I doubt it.

     

    GW2 also has the added complication of having several abilities that are teleports of varying ranges for many classes. For example, the guardian's Judge's intervention is a 1200 range TP on a 25s CD. So TP by itself is not a hack...doing it more often than every 25s or having no blue fire graphics at the destination could be hacks.

     

    Like I said, if Anet gives us all free chocolate chip cookies many people in this forum will complain about it being dark chocolate chips and not enough of them.

     

    Botting and hacks exist here just like they do in all MMOs and no one in this thread knows what Anet has done, is doing or will be doing about it. Nor do you know what detection is already in the game. Despite seeing a lot of botting, I have yet to see the same name back again the next day. Could be they are being detected and banned for all we know. It's not smart for MMO companies to share too much info about how they catch the cheaters is it?

     

    And BTW, it IS the hacker's fault. You don't blame the bank for getting robbed do you? I'm betting you don't work in victim support services...

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Virginia, VAPosts: 2,131Member
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by DMKano
    (...)

    (...)

    And BTW, it IS the hacker's fault. You don't blame the bank for getting robbed do you? I'm betting you don't work in victim support services...

    Actually, you do that if the security of the bank has not been as good as it is expected to be. It is precisely such scandals that can force heads to roll due to pressure from public opinion.

     

     

    Edit:

    In fact, a similar situation happened in Norway in connection to the terrorism act by Breivik.  Although the highest ranked police chief did not commit the terrorist act, the critique against how he handled the situation was large enough to make him resign.  Here is a Swedish article about it: http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article15270626.ab.

     

    Edit2: In conclusion: while the hackers are certainly to blame, that doesn't mean Arenanet is automatically free from blame; both can actually be blamed.

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by Betakodo
    Originally posted by botrytis

    Blizzard has around 7300 employess - http://www.qj.net/mmorpg/tutorials/blizzard-fires-600-employees.html

     

    EA has around 7700 also - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Arts

     

    A.Net has 250+ employees http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/ArenaNet

     

    There is a huge discrepency here in number of employees. A.Net will get to them - they did in GW1 and will in GW2.

    How many people in those first two companies actually touch the code? Arenanet is more of a programmer's company started by programmers, who then have the aid of NCSoft as the publisher. I sort of question how many GMs they have. Yeah, Anet  may be fixing it slowly, but they're probably more interested in rolling in the dough and making an expansion that they think will have as many buys as GW2.

    Client side in a MMO? I don't think even Korean F2P games do that anymore. Maybe  5 years back, but not now.

    Client side? Your characters are stored on their server. Most games are client/server - oops client/cloud-based (different name, same idea). Does anyon actually understand programming of games on this site? I wonder.......

    Someone else already addressed your post, but to make sure...

     

    I think most people are understanding game development more than you. When you code you can determine what the client decides and what the server decides. You can create a game where the client tells the server where it is or a game where the server tells the client where it is (the client simply tells the server that it is hitting a direction key and the server determines how far the client moved etc.). The more you let the client decide, the easier it is to hack. That is what people are referring to when they say the game is client side.

     

    Ideally with an MMO pretty much all the client would do is update the graphics and send which keys are pressed to the server. That way the server can make sure the client doesn't move further than possible and it makes it much harder to hack since the server can simply throw away packets that are timed as too old or in the future. However, it appears ANet has put more on the client side than is ideal and that allows easy hacks.

     

    The problem with having everything on the server can be user experience. If the client does not guess at where the server will allow it to be, the movement could become very jerky as it waits to be told it is now in a new position and rushes to update. If the server allows the client to predict where it will be to some degree to smooth that jerkiness out, when the client predicts wrong due to lag etc. the player could experience warping as the client finds out it hasn't made it as far as it predicted.

     

    So most companies try to find a good balance between the client/server mix and depending on how much they allow the client to control in order to make the user experience better, the more they open themselves up to hacks they have to now create work arounds to shut down.

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKPosts: 8,553Member Uncommon

    Today alone I've reported 42 bots - all doing the same thing teleporting and mindlessly killing anything nearby.

    How long does it take for Anet to actually "look into the issue" - this is getting quite ridiculous.

    There are MORE BOTS than players in many zones now - Houston we have a problem.

  • KingJigglyKingJiggly Simpsonville, SCPosts: 777Member
    I just hope it gets fixed. I trust Anet to do what they can to accomplish this. Look, if runescape can do it, then I am sure Anet can. :P
  • JackdogJackdog Charleston, SCPosts: 6,344Member
    I have not seen any of the speedhacks or teleporting being used. There is a group of about 9 clones on Isle of Jantir twice now within a week that I wish Arenanet woulkd get around to banning. Reported them twice now in the last 5 days. Other than that the botting seems to be getting better and I am down to about 1 gold seller spam a day now

    I miss DAoC

  • rykim86rykim86 winnipeg, MBPosts: 236Member

    My huge beef with it in WvW.

    Not going to point out servers, as it's usually just a couple guilds doing it from what I saw.  It really is the only reason why my WvW groupie of 30+ get manhandled by 15 of them.

  • WendettaWendetta WellingtonPosts: 30Member
    Originally posted by Scalpless
    Originally posted by Wendetta
    Originally posted by Scalpless

    In the betas, all movement was handled by the client. I guess some of that moved on to the full version. A bit stupid on their part, considering how often this stuff gets exploited.

    And since it wasnt refuted by anyone else, I was ASKING the question as to whether its true. Read, next time.

    And MO failed because of its client side detections (among other things), so no arguing that.

    We don't know, which is why I wrote "I guess". ANet's response to movement speed hacks during the beta weekends was that movement was client based in beta, but would be server-based post-release. However, for a hack like this to be even possible, at least some movement-related things must be handled client side, probably to make combat smoother. I don't think all or most of it is, because that would be weird and amateurish.

    I see, it would make sense if something carried over from beta by which client side responses could have been exploited on live, but I would like to know what was the reason they implemented such a poor form of game mechanics (not just on live but in beta too) in the first place. Was it a cost cutting measure (like the other poster mentioned and which I too think might be the culprit) or is because of ameturish experience in the field of development (face it these guys have created like what...ONE game before this)?

     

    But just so someone puts it out there, for ALL the zealous posts that were flooding the forums about GW2 (vaguely remember a thread called Tao of GW2, nice cultist reference there), I did not read ONE post about this game having any core game mechanics being handled client side. Albeit I wasnt following the game like a nut who treated this game like a new religion, so I may have missed out a lot of info, but even if there was a post mentioning this then it was droned out by thousands of fanatical posts that hyped this game up to the high heavens...Came as a shock, that the "INNOVATION" station in the MMO journey of mankind (paraphrasing it here) stooped down to use something as redundant of client side detections. 10/10 on innovating the wheel...what a load of BS!

     

    The only type of games that use client side detection on core features should be Single Player games, and NOT MMOs, IMHO.

    Proud Member of the A.F-D-A. [Anti Fanboy-Defense-Army]Association for a Better Tomorrow or [A.F-D-A.]AfaBT, in short.

  • WendettaWendetta WellingtonPosts: 30Member
    [mod edit]

    You post, linking "how to cheat" vidoes from xxx game which is by NO WAY related to GW2 or the current GW2 developers (unless you are instigating that GW2 stole game code from said games...) reeks of gross immaturity and lack of foresight. Not to mention its in direct violation of forums rules, as the mod has reminded you by now. So, tell me how does the 2012 release game that was supposed to be the "game-changer" (pun intended) fail so miserably to combat player end exploitation? How does ANet not prepare ANY safeguards other than taking a post-effect approach on the issue with bans only? Ive seen some special people say that GW1 was high on bots and ANet came down hard on them, etc etc so why were they NOT prepared to come down hard on GW2 bots from the get-go? Too bad all they thought of was innovating the trinity while ignoring security, yea?

    Proud Member of the A.F-D-A. [Anti Fanboy-Defense-Army]Association for a Better Tomorrow or [A.F-D-A.]AfaBT, in short.

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKPosts: 8,553Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin

     

    And BTW, it IS the hacker's fault. You don't blame the bank for getting robbed do you? I'm betting you don't work in victim support services...

    Hackers are a problem - but when Anet screws up like they did here they are also part of the problem.

    if the bank put all their cash out on the sidewalk, instead the vault - you wouldn't say they also were responsible?

  • just1opinionjust1opinion Kansas City, MOPosts: 4,844Member
    [mod edit]

    President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

  • ByntBynt Atlanta, GAPosts: 35Member

    Does anyone have a ETA or guess when the teleporting hack to port to anywhere in a zone will be fixed? 

    This morning, while standing at a tower lord, about 15 min after we took it, I was trying to figure out how to upgrade it.  While standing there a very interesting thing happened, about 20 people all instantly teleported right on top of the tower lord, killed him, then disappeared again.  This is a rough estimate on the number of players that I could count.  The door never went down and they never ran by me and I was standing at the upgrade merchant.  So they teleported in, capped it, then teleported out.  This is terrible for the game as WvWvW is now not worth playing for me after witnesssing this sort of cheating/exploiting.  I can only imagine that worse things like radar and other problems are going on as well and just not getting as much attention because of this atrocity.

    Anyone have a guess on when this will be fixed or if it will ever be fixed?  I can't PvE now cause of Diminishing Return caps and now I can't WvW/PvP because of cheating, so was curious what peoples opinions are about when the fixes are coming, thanks in advance.

    Yes, I took screenshots and submited to ANET.

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