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Anet has to do something about teleporting exploits

2

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  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    Originally posted by Phry
    Originally posted by JimmyYO
    No fail is worse then Diablo 3 using Client side system clock for it's online auctions, making gold duping mindlessly easy on a game that uses real life money. The economy in that game was destroyed from the first day on with that little mishap.

    which just highlights how dumb it is to use client side resources instead of server side, which would prevent these things from happening in the first place. Especially in a PVP orientated game, im pretty sure if CCP had done this kind of thing with Eve, it would be a dead game way before now, there isnt a future for client based MMO's, that much at least by now should have been obvious, because they always get hacked.image

    From our point of view it is stupid indeed but I imagine it costs alot less, mostly in being able to ofload their servers and put it on the client. And in a mostly B2P type of game it really does not matter because player retention is not all that important.

    Not saying I agree with it, just saying why they probably designed it the way they did.

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKPosts: 8,494Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin

    [mod edit]

     

     

    Well your link is wrong -  your Rift link goes to SWTOR video.

    So yeah show me one rift hacking video from like this year - hehe - all the Rift speed-hack videos are way old, before Trion put in new security measures - they have pretty sick in-game monitiring tools that would detect speed-hacking as they do their client positioning checks server side.

    Again - no point in getting into a finger pointing match - GW2 is still fresh, but Anet has to fix this crap like YESTEDAY.

    WvW, dungeons, gathering, the whole game is subject to teleporing hack exploits - FIX PLS!!

  • outfctrloutfctrl Jacksonville, FLPosts: 3,619Member

    Since this game is free to play, do you think they have the resources to implement all these security services that have been mentioned here?

    All those other mmo's have a steady stream of money coming in from subscriptions.  GW2 doesn't.

    image

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKPosts: 8,494Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by outfctrl

    Since this game is free to play, do you think they have the resources to implement all these security services that have been mentioned here?

    All those other mmo's have a steady stream of money coming in from subscriptions.  GW2 doesn't.

    It's B2P - F2P means the client is free, to play is free everything is free - last time I checked I paid ~$70 (with tax) for GW2 - that is NOT free.

    So they sold 2mil+ boxes - that's 120mil (I read that Anet gets $48 from every box sale) - so it's still a crap ton of money.

    Now we don't know what the DEV cost of GW2 was - I am thinking 100-150mil, we don't know what the operational costs are to run the game (including employee salaries, data center cost, etc...) 

    Add that all up - do they have enough money to code in some server-side checks? 

    No clue - but it should be a huge priority for them, as right now the hacks are ruining the game.

     

    Edit - I am going to make a guess that GW2 development cost around $150 million total, because NCSoft target sales were 3.1 million which at $48 per box comes out to $146mil - after that point I bet you every sale is profit.

     

  • sfc1971sfc1971 UtrechtPosts: 421Member
    Originally posted by Wendetta
    Originally posted by CallsignVega
    This game is client based, 

    Wow! Are you serious? I thought only crappy "indie" modders like Starvault would make core features of an MMO client side. I had no clue that ANet screwed the same pooch.

    Duh, I can't really believe anyone didn't know this. Where do you think subscription games spend those subscriptions? On expensive servers that have to be really fast since EVERYTHING has to go server side for calculation and feedback. GW2 saves on servers a lot by doing things client side, that is why the game is cheaper to run.

    You get what you pay for. Same with GM's. GM's want paying and your 50 bucks is not going to stretch very far when it comes to paying enough people to watch all servers and all players 24/7.

    Gold farming/bots etc are also a thing no MMO developer thinks about during development, see the evidence in every single MMO only adding an option to report a player specifically for gold spam AFTER launch. It is like every developer thinks, nah, gold spam? That won't happen to us. And then it does.

  • sfc1971sfc1971 UtrechtPosts: 421Member
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by outfctrl

    Since this game is free to play, do you think they have the resources to implement all these security services that have been mentioned here?

    All those other mmo's have a steady stream of money coming in from subscriptions.  GW2 doesn't.

     

     

    Edit - I am going to make a guess that GW2 development cost around $150 million total, because NCSoft target sales were 3.1 million which at $48 per box comes out to $146mil - after that point I bet you every sale is profit.

     

    Yeah, because servers don't need electricity, staff doesn't need salary. All costs of a MMO are the costs for initial development and that is it.

     

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,258Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scalpless

    In the betas, all movement was handled by the client. I guess some of that moved on to the full version. A bit stupid on their part, considering how often this stuff gets exploited.

    Another problem that would probably fix itself if people stopped buying gold.

    From the mail I get it looks like it's a much better deal to buy from a gold farmer, like 10 times better. If buying gold is you thing (completely unacceptable in my book, Anet or farmer.)

     

    Plus, lets not pretend that all the farmers are on hacked accounts, so why not buy the gold from a cheaper source in a game that promotes buying gold?

  • SentimeSentime Chicago, ILPosts: 272Member

    Client side movement for real?!

    Staying out of any competative PvP in this game till they get a clue.

  • ScalplessScalpless SnowballvillePosts: 1,394Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by outfctrl

    Since this game is free to play, do you think they have the resources to implement all these security services that have been mentioned here?

    All those other mmo's have a steady stream of money coming in from subscriptions.  GW2 doesn't.

    It's B2P - F2P means the client is free, to play is free everything is free - last time I checked I paid ~$70 (with tax) for GW2 - that is NOT free.

    So they sold 2mil+ boxes - that's 120mil (I read that Anet gets $48 from every box sale) - so it's still a crap ton of money.

    Now we don't know what the DEV cost of GW2 was - I am thinking 100-150mil, we don't know what the operational costs are to run the game (including employee salaries, data center cost, etc...) 

    Add that all up - do they have enough money to code in some server-side checks? 

    No clue - but it should be a huge priority for them, as right now the hacks are ruining the game.

     

    Edit - I am going to make a guess that GW2 development cost around $150 million total, because NCSoft target sales were 3.1 million which at $48 per box comes out to $146mil - after that point I bet you every sale is profit.

    That would mean GW2 is one of the most expensive games ever made. It's not. It almost certainly cost less than 100 mil. Most guesstimates I've read are around 50 mil, but I wouldn't dismiss a higher cost. Anyway, I'm sure they've got more than enough money and those "it's F2P, so there'll be no support" comments have always been hard to take seriously, considering GW1's updates. GW1 was a much smaller-budget title, too.

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKPosts: 8,494Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scalpless

    That would mean GW2 is one of the most expensive games ever made. It's not. It almost certainly cost less than 100 mil. Most guesstimates I've read are around 50 mil, but I wouldn't dismiss a higher cost. Anyway, I'm sure they've got more than enough money and those "it's F2P, so there'll be no support" comments have always been hard to take seriously, considering GW1's updates. GW1 was a much smaller-budget title, too.

    Again - I have no clue what the actual dev cost for GW2 was - most AAA MMORPGs fall in the 40mil + category, but Warhammer online was over 100mil, SWTOR was 250mil+ (at launch I hear that they were actually closer to 300mil) - so 150mil is not out of the realm of possibility.

    Again I have no clue what the actual cost was - we'll probably never know.

    None of that should matter as far as this discussion - they MUST do something about the teleporting hacks.

  • EletherylEletheryl morenoPosts: 152Member
    Originally posted by DMKano

    We've seen bots teleport all over the place in youtube videos - tonight first time I've seen a player that was teleporting from node to node for insta gathering.

    This dude was able to jump at ANY point in the zone instantly - a buddy of mine was on the far north of the zone - I was in the south - this joker manged to pop from south to north and back in less than 10s - there are NO TELEPORTS nearby.

    I reported him - it's pretty disgusting that Anets server code has no checks for client side map point jumping. You'd think that it would be pretty easy to detect a client jumping across the entire zone without the use of teleports and back???

    Damn bots!

     

    GW2 could be a great game, sadly bots and hacks will kill it pretty fast, some servers pretty much have more bots than players atm. 

     

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by outfctrl

    Since this game is free to play, do you think they have the resources to implement all these security services that have been mentioned here?

    All those other mmo's have a steady stream of money coming in from subscriptions.  GW2 doesn't.

    Very poor argument. In Rift, there are many hacks and bots as in WoW (in fact some of the original WoW hacks can still be used in MoP but people forgot about them). It is in all the company's interest to get rid of hacking, the problem being as they rachet up security, hackers will find a way around it. It is a moving target. It should still be dealt with.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DMKano

    We've seen bots teleport all over the place in youtube videos - tonight first time I've seen a player that was teleporting from node to node for insta gathering.

    This dude was able to jump at ANY point in the zone instantly - a buddy of mine was on the far north of the zone - I was in the south - this joker manged to pop from south to north and back in less than 10s - there are NO TELEPORTS nearby.

    I reported him - it's pretty disgusting that Anets server code has no checks for client side map point jumping. You'd think that it would be pretty easy to detect a client jumping across the entire zone without the use of teleports and back???

    Damn bots!

    They are working on it. I'll have to see if I can find the statement, but they are pooling the information they are gathering on botters / hackers and planning to deal w/ them all at once, via a series of large bannings.

    The reason they are waiting to do this, is because hackers / botters can easily figure out what gave them away if you start banning them too quickly. By waiting a bit and dealing w/ them all at once, there's no derivable pattern for someone to look at and circumvent.

  • halflife25halflife25 Toronto, ONPosts: 737Member
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by outfctrl

    Since this game is free to play, do you think they have the resources to implement all these security services that have been mentioned here?

    All those other mmo's have a steady stream of money coming in from subscriptions.  GW2 doesn't.

    Very poor argument. In Rift, there are many hacks and bots as in WoW (in fact some of the original WoW hacks can still be used in MoP but people forgot about them). It is in all the company's interest to get rid of hacking, the problem being as they rachet up security, hackers will find a way around it. It is a moving target. It should still be dealt with.

    Good you give us some links to some information regarding these 'many' hacks and bots? i haven't read or heard about it. You are the first person to say that RIFT has many hacks and bots.

  • EletherylEletheryl morenoPosts: 152Member
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by DMKano

    We've seen bots teleport all over the place in youtube videos - tonight first time I've seen a player that was teleporting from node to node for insta gathering.

    This dude was able to jump at ANY point in the zone instantly - a buddy of mine was on the far north of the zone - I was in the south - this joker manged to pop from south to north and back in less than 10s - there are NO TELEPORTS nearby.

    I reported him - it's pretty disgusting that Anets server code has no checks for client side map point jumping. You'd think that it would be pretty easy to detect a client jumping across the entire zone without the use of teleports and back???

    Damn bots!

    They are working on it. I'll have to see if I can find the statement, but they are pooling the information they are gathering on botters / hackers and planning to deal w/ them all at once, via a series of large bannings.

    The reason they are waiting to do this, is because hackers / botters can easily figure out what gave them away if you start banning them too quickly. By waiting a bit and dealing w/ them all at once, there's no derivable pattern for someone to look at and circumvent.

    We know about this since beta, do you really believe that anet is doing something?

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    I think those using teleporting exploits are just playing it wrong.
  • AmanaAmana New York, NYPosts: 2,527Moderator Uncommon
    Remember that posting videos or any links that show how to recreate an exploit are not allowed on here.

    To give feedback on moderation, contact community@mmorpg.com

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member

    Blizzard has around 7300 employess - http://www.qj.net/mmorpg/tutorials/blizzard-fires-600-employees.html

     

    EA has around 7700 also - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Arts

     

    A.Net has 250+ employees http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/ArenaNet

     

    There is a huge discrepency here in number of employees. A.Net will get to them - they did in GW1 and will in GW2.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,288Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by DMKano

    We've seen bots teleport all over the place in youtube videos - tonight first time I've seen a player that was teleporting from node to node for insta gathering.

    This dude was able to jump at ANY point in the zone instantly - a buddy of mine was on the far north of the zone - I was in the south - this joker manged to pop from south to north and back in less than 10s - there are NO TELEPORTS nearby.

    I reported him - it's pretty disgusting that Anets server code has no checks for client side map point jumping. You'd think that it would be pretty easy to detect a client jumping across the entire zone without the use of teleports and back???

    Damn bots!

    They are working on it. I'll have to see if I can find the statement, but they are pooling the information they are gathering on botters / hackers and planning to deal w/ them all at once, via a series of large bannings.

    The reason they are waiting to do this, is because hackers / botters can easily figure out what gave them away if you start banning them too quickly. By waiting a bit and dealing w/ them all at once, there's no derivable pattern for someone to look at and circumvent.

    thats right if they wait a while, they can take them by surprise, like. leap out from behind a bush just after they teleport to the node, and shout 'ahah caught you, you nasty teleporting hacking scoundrel'  ....  on the other hand, because its mostly client side, they probably can't tell who is doing what, never mind with whom..  i mean, unless they all decide to wear stripy clothing and wear a mask and carry a bag with swag on it.. image

    security, you get what you pay for.. and arenanets take on it, is that they have no choice but to rely on their players to not hack into their game. When online gaming first came out a decade or so ago, that kind of thing might have worked.. some.. but now, not a chance in hell. image

  • outfctrloutfctrl Jacksonville, FLPosts: 3,619Member
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by outfctrl

    Since this game is free to play, do you think they have the resources to implement all these security services that have been mentioned here?

    All those other mmo's have a steady stream of money coming in from subscriptions.  GW2 doesn't.

    It's B2P - F2P means the client is free, to play is free everything is free - last time I checked I paid ~$70 (with tax) for GW2 - that is NOT free.

    So they sold 2mil+ boxes - that's 120mil (I read that Anet gets $48 from every box sale) - so it's still a crap ton of money.

    Now we don't know what the DEV cost of GW2 was - I am thinking 100-150mil, we don't know what the operational costs are to run the game (including employee salaries, data center cost, etc...) 

    Add that all up - do they have enough money to code in some server-side checks? 

    No clue - but it should be a huge priority for them, as right now the hacks are ruining the game.

     

    Edit - I am going to make a guess that GW2 development cost around $150 million total, because NCSoft target sales were 3.1 million which at $48 per box comes out to $146mil - after that point I bet you every sale is profit.

     

    My bad, you are correct.  I was thinking subscription costs.  Yes, you do pay for the game, but then that is it. No more revenue, unless you buy from the cash shop and only then, most of the stuff is temporary.

    My Son bought some cool looking armor for his warrior, but when he out levels it, it's gone.

    image

  • EletherylEletheryl morenoPosts: 152Member
    Originally posted by botrytis

    Blizzard has around 7300 employess - http://www.qj.net/mmorpg/tutorials/blizzard-fires-600-employees.html

     

    EA has around 7700 also - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Arts

     

    A.Net has 250+ employees http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/ArenaNet

     

    There is a huge discrepency here in number of employees. A.Net will get to them - they did in GW1 and will in GW2.

    GW1 was 100% instanced. they are losing the battle on gw2, sadly it will kill the game if they dont do something fast

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,258Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by botrytis

    Blizzard has around 7300 employess - http://www.qj.net/mmorpg/tutorials/blizzard-fires-600-employees.html

     

    EA has around 7700 also - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Arts

     

    A.Net has 250+ employees http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/ArenaNet

     

    There is a huge discrepency here in number of employees. A.Net will get to them - they did in GW1 and will in GW2.

    Apples and oranges. EA, Acti/Blizz, and NCsoft would be more on point.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,606Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Originally posted by Amana
    Remember that posting videos or any links that show how to recreate an exploit are not allowed on here.

    damnit did I miss it?

    You didn't miss anything that you can't find easily in a Youtube search: name of MMO + speedhack.

     

    The point is that they all have them and continue to have them despite a naive belief by some fans that "MMO "X" has totally eliminated it."

     

    Anyone who has ever worked in anti-cheating (or anti-piracy) implementations can tell you that it's always a moving target: as soon as you implement a new method someone wil find a way around it--be it lag-exploits, packet sniffing or the hundreds of other ways to manipulate client/server interactions.

     

    As a matter of fact, calling something "hack-proof" is the surest way to have someone hack it quickly--it's like waving a red flag in front of the pirates and cheaters.

     

    This was my point above: There is no reason to bash GW2 in any way because cheaters are cheating. The quantity of teleporting bots has a lot more to do with the gold-farmer's market created by the game's popularity than anything Arenanet has done, is doing or will do to counteract it--at the moment at least, GW2 and WOW are far ahead of the MMO pack by a country mile when it comes to potential gold buying customers.

     

    But hey, start a topic about the skies being nice to look at in GW2 and there will be 20 posts in 5 minutes here telling us how Anet could have had 3D skies instead of painted 2D ones and that the reason they cheaped-out is that it's not a sub game...if it was a sub game they could afford to hire a proper sky team image

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Virginia, VAPosts: 2,131Member
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Originally posted by Scalpless

    In the betas, all movement was handled by the client. I guess some of that moved on to the full version. A bit stupid on their part, considering how often this stuff gets exploited.

    Another problem that would probably fix itself if people stopped buying gold.

    From the mail I get it looks like it's a much better deal to buy from a gold farmer, like 10 times better. If buying gold is you thing (completely unacceptable in my book, Anet or farmer.)

     

    Plus, lets not pretend that all the farmers are on hacked accounts, so why not buy the gold from a cheaper source in a game that promotes buying gold?

    This is a problem, specially if the gold-buyers think that every hacked account is just the fault of the user, because then there is no real reason for why they wouldn't want to buy gold through 3rd party sources other than that Arenanet's has better security and is more convenient. If the gold sellers can sufficiently undercut Arenanet's prices, that may be a risk and inconvenience worth taking for those potential gold-buyers.

     

    If buying gold (practically) from the developers is okay and endorsed by developers, why would it be bad to buy gold from other "legit" players?  "Because the devs has written in their rules that it is bad" is not a sufficient reason. 

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,606Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Amana
    Remember that posting videos or any links that show how to recreate an exploit are not allowed on here.

    Woops. Didn't know that. I am now a wiser man.

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