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Auction House: Death of Community
Myrdynn
Member RarePosts: 2,479
I have long been thinking of posting this, finally getting a little time to do so. While playing some games recently, TSW, GW2, SWtor, TERA, etc over the last year, it has dawned on me that the biggest community killer is the Auction House. Recently games (TSW and GW2) launched without a proper AH, and until they were put in place, people actually talked in the channels, making deals, helping people, selling mats etc. I actually made a couple acquaintances that were heavy crafters, who just were after all the supplies they could get their hands on, and I was willing to help em out. It was a good relationship. Then the AH was fixed, and since then I havent even talked to a single person in game. Before you say, well I should try making friends, there really is nothing in either TSW or GW2 that having friends makes beneficial. I dont need them to do anything in game, I dont need them to craft anything for me, etc.
Now long ago, the games we played didnt have Auction Houses, and they were very strong communities. Everyone on a server knew that if you wanted a Ubersword of Giant Slaying, that BobJohnson was the one that could craft it the best, or you could at least ask around and see if someone could hook you up. This built community, numerous times, a conversation would go something like. Hey I hear you can make me "item X', sure I can, but the mats are really tough to come by. But why dont we get a group together and go out on a hunting party to find them. You get your mats, you help me skill up one of my crafting skills, its a win/win. Friendships were formed, alliances were forged, etc.
Unfortunately with the have it all now crowd that play MMO's Auction Houses are an evil necessity. You collect your mats, sell them on the AH for X currency, then search for the item you want and bam, you got it, very short time, very EZ. But during this time, you have no interaction with another player whatsoever, hell you dont even know who made you your item. Items used to be imprinted with crafters as well, so that when someone says hey where did you get that sword you could inspect it and it would say made by "player X".
Anyways, I know I am going to likely be in the minority, but its something I have been thinking of for some time. I think a happy medium might be a game where an Auction House isnt really an AH, but a Job listing, for example you want "Sword X" you search the AH database of "who" can craft it, and it will give you a list with (online/offline) status's, where you then actually need to interact with a player, It might not be all that much different but at least its a step back in the right direction
Thoughts?
Comments
Oh your right Auction house in those two games is bad (GW2,TSW) but in WoW is very good idea
would you please be a little honest
I've played a lot of MMO's some with AH's at launch and some without. I remember EQ before there was a bazaar and I don't remember the addition of the bazaar changing the social aspect of the game.
If I remember correctly SWG launched with the market terminals or whatever they called them, I think that game probably had one of the best communities especially when it came to learning who was the best at crafting what and the like.
The reality is that community shaping is not just about one aspect. Heck I think the ability to tab out of game and look up things like quest guides or other game related things can have as big an impact on community, if not bigger, than an AH can.
think you missed the point, I am not saying how good or bad a specific auction house is, but how the Auction House in general is a community killer. WOW is in the same boat, RIFT as well.
true, but EQ was a group based game, you had to have others around to progress, that built community as well.
I thought SWG you set up your own market terminals at your own place, no idea, I never played it
I really, really don't know what to think (which should be more important).
Auction Houses are such an important convenience we have all grown extremely dependant of but they do in fact diminish community, especialy when you don't even know who you're making business with. Any kind of possible reputation here goes through the toilet along with the recent trend of removing any kind of meaningful "grind".
The same happens with Dungeon Finders and any other tool that automatizes something effectively replacing player interaction at previously basic social levels.
So I am pretty much split here, we seem to be accepting more and more convenience in themepark games and then when we see a game not featuring any, we call developers lazy for making us socialize to get what we want instead of clicking a few buttons.
I know it's convenience, but it simply does not work if we're considering the virtual world to be an immersive world... it's making me think about community as such an important factor for the longetivity of a MMO long-term appeal, but then we have the elephant in the room with its undisputed and unrivaled success.
I dont think AHs is the death of the communities. Soloquests and need/greed looting is far worse for the community than any trading post is.
I do however prefer player owned stores in games with a good crafting system. But a good crafting system also includes specifically designed items, just in looks and stats.
The perfect system for me would be something like this: I walk into a player owned smithy. There a hired NPC will take orders and tell us what orders can be made and whats not. It would also allow me to see that the smith have the mats to the shield I want ready and give me an estimate (if I want to have something really specific I will leave a message and the smith will contact me) of the price based on parameters the smith have put up (work price + mat price).
I want a shield with my guildmark or personal mark on so I include that in the order, but I dont want any specific custom skin so I leave that part to the smith.
The game would take my money and give it to the smith when he complete my order, but there should also be a time limit (a day for express, 3 days for normal).
And I should of course also be able to browse what the smith have premade.
But we really need an NPC to take the orders, a player smith just cant and shouldnt stay in his store all the time but I should go to the store and not just mail him, otherwise we could just have an AH.
But here we are talking about a game with crafting based gear. In games like Wow crafted gear sucks and stores with looted gear takes too long time to browse so in many of those cases the AH still have a function.
Dude, know your MMO's and your MMO history. AH is old and have been there in one form or another since the early MMO's. SWG, EVE and AO all have/had more extensive AH and player based vendor systems than any of the mordern themepark MMO's have. None of these games have any problem with 'Death of Community'. They have/had some of the strongest communities that I have seen. So no AH, LFG-systems etc. is not the cause of bad in-game communities.
Currently playing: AoC, RIFT, Champions Online, DDO, LORTO, STO and Tribes: Ascend
Have Played: TSW, SWG, AO, EVE, WOW, EQ, EQ2, SW:TOR, GW,CoH, DCUO, RotMG, WAR,
Interesting conjecture. I have never thought of it. Usually the idea is the Dungeon finder has killed community.
You could be right to a degree. I have found that for every problem that gets solved a new one is created. Giving players and AH creates a way to sell goods even when they player is off line. But it takes away the necessity of having to chat.
Yeah SWG's system had some of these elements. Of course some of the cooler NPC's and such came along after the in crafting and gear got nerfed big time.
As a slightly related aside I'm on the fence about gear in games, there is part of me that would rather just see gear be the visual side of things while you level up the statistical side of whatever gear you "wear". If a system like this could be created that still allowed for meaningful crafted gear, but put the power of the statistics behind the gear in the hands of the player I'd be hooked.
Back on subject, even in games with AH's and no player run shops I find myself seeking out specific crafters for orders, maybe that's just a hold over from my earlier MMO experiences, but it generally works out for me.
While removal of AH would not fit games like WoW or Swtor also because big percentage of their playerbase are not interested in economy, crafting, communiuty and are almost purely combat oriented - and removal of AH would mean for them incovenience taking their time off combat and instances.
I personally I am sick of things like AH and games with design like that. While they are technically mmorpg, for me they are nit anymore - I realized recently that games like WoW, GW2 or Swtor are so far away from original mmorpg concept that for me they are just diffrent type / genre of game.
After all if I want to play an single player crpg - I don't go and start playing God of War or Diablo since they are diffrent genre and offer diffrent type of gameplay even if there are some small similarities.
Is LordDarkittyDarkdark's "Chainmail of Infusion" better than XxAlucardxX's "Chainmail of Infusion"? Are the stats any different? Does one give more AC than the other? Is one more durable than the other?
Does LadyNightShade's basic backpack wear out any faster than FatL33tz's basic backpack? Does it hold any more items?
How does a player become a "better craftsman" than any other player? I just don't understand what people mean by this turn of phrase.
As to the OP:
I am not a market player. I would NOT buy or sell anything to any other player if it were not for the AH. Personally, I find it ultra-boring to stand in one spot and broadcast over and over to everyone and their dogs what I want to buy or sell. I've never dreamed about working on Wall Street.
When EQ came out with the bazaar, I often wondered if people actually made secondary accounts solely to sell their items, or if they just went to "shop mode" when they went afk. I would not miss not having an AH. I would just go back to selling to vendors.
I don't know if the AH is a cause or a symptom of today's more closed off community. I find it hard to point at any one thing and say, "This is why the community is dieing."
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I have to agree with the OP on this one. In the early days of SWG, crafters could have their own merchants or vendors in their houses, but we had to know the guy and know what he was crafting, otherwise we didn't even know where to find a house with a vendor in it (of course it was also possible to explore a planet and try all houses hoping to find a vendor). There was a bazaar but there was a price limit on it so it was more profitable for a crafter to have his own vendors or interact directly with a potential buyer and more efficient for all players to know them. Then came the "personal vendors location" on the bazaar and the social aspect of crafting and commerce took a big hit.
I don't say that having a auction house is good or not, I'm just staying with the OP about how it affect social. For some, interacting directly with a crafter is the best or more fun way to do buisness, for others, it's the fast and practical side of the auction house.
I think some might be taking 'Auction House' as 'central trading system' and missing the point. I agree, an auction house really cuts down on interaction. Buy/Sell Orders, the ability to contact notable sellers directly and the ability for sellers to advertise their wares (not /trade) contribute far more to interaction between buyer and seller than most AH's do.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm pro Auction House and anti shops. AH forces people to compete and bring their prices down (minus the gold seller influence). I don't know you or the 10000 other people playing. How am I going to know if you're honest? Just as much chance to get screwed. Shops are always more expensive than an AH. When I am the one crafting there are to many peeps who need for me to get to know each one. This is NOT a good way to socialize. It's a good way to get shafted. On the same note, I think AH should have a three digit limit so no one can sell anything for more than $999. This would keep out the ridiculous priced items that no one but gold buyers can afford.
Why are you people constantly obsessing over socializing in games? You sound like homemaker wives who buzz a dude's ear off and he just wants to relax, eat his pizza, watch sports and go to bed. If you want to talk so much join a quilting club not an mmo.
Some examples from previous games:
SWG - some resources were only available in certain areas. Some crafters could create things that others simple couldn't because they neither knew how nor had the materials to do so.
UO - having shops in prime locations. Regularly stocking good. Offering a selection of specific goods. For example, I'd regularly get my spears and krysses from Krom Flaa. I had easy access to his shop, he was always stocked with weapons, and his weapons were always GM quality with the option of deadly poisoned or regular.
EVE - location, stock and also ability to ship goods. Some crafters just build things to put on the market. Some take special orders. Depending on the blueprints they have and their efficiency, some crafters can build goods faster or for less materials. Some have freighters and an escort team so that if someone orders a fleet of battleships they can not only fill the order at a decent price but also ship it to the desired destination (usually at a nice price per jump to get there).
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I wouldn't call it an obsession but what's the point of playing a MMO game (btw the 2 M's means MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER) if you don't interact with others? When i don't want to socialize, i play games like Skyrim or Fallout but when I get into a MMO game, especialy a MMORPG, it's because I want to interact with more than NPCs.
In most sandbox games there are usually secondary skills that do affect wear/durability.
In UO a lot of that stuff was patched in later, and has to do with arms lore if memory serves.
Mortal took up to 3 characters just to make weapons/armor
In Darkfall it was Trueforge, and before the recent skill increase only dedicated crafters had a high Trueforge which made that 20k weapon up to 4 times as durable
I'm guessing mister Quirky hasn't played any sandbox titles before
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
Everything from new moons to space aliens to the decay of modern society to b-net kiddies causes the 'death of community'.
The very speculation itself is growing tiresome at this point. Find a new cell phone tower to watchfully guard against.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Regarding the OP, you really need a reason to get rid of the AH. If items don't degrade and aren't craftable then there's really no reason NOT to have an auction house. The items in question will either be hoarded, given away, or sold as vendor trash anyway.
You could never get rid of an AH in a mainstream themepark in the same way that you will never get rid of fast food in a suburb, nor should you. It just fits the genre
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
The association of mainstream themepark and auction house is incorrect. It is static items databases that makes the AH useful. While static items are common to most themepark-focused MMOs, they are not specific to them. As the craftable content becomes more diverse or dynamic, the AH system becomes less useful as a trade center.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I think a big part of this is crafters and I think having drops and rewards more resource based would be fantastic. It would create a codependency which sounds bad but I think is a great thing for an MMORPG.