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Because the idea of a game existing that doesn't cater specifically to "them" pisses a lot of people off, regardless of how many other games do.
Because the idea of a game existing that doesn't cater specifically to "them" pisses a lot of people off, regardless of how many other games do.
Isn't saying there should NOT be a PvE server the same thing?
I get the argument a gainst in for Darkfall just based on numbers alone. . but so many games people get all fiery when someone wants a PVE server. I know it takes the sheep away to farm but seriously.
Also for every PVE game I have played there has been a vocal minority screaming for a full PVP server even though those are rarely successful because the game was not designed for it.
For Darkfall I Used to wish there was a PvE only server because I wanted to explore and just play away. . after a few weeks I raelized how boring that would become and that one of the reasons I liked the game was beacause it had that element of danger.. same reason I love/hate MO.
I don't think it would work but I don't see the harm in having one either.. . does it destroy your game on the PvP server if the other does exist?
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
Originally posted by bunnyhopper Originally posted by snapfusion Originally posted by xpiher Originally posted by thinktank001 Originally posted by xpiher
Thinktank is spot on here Xpiher doesnt have the vision to see it. Yes it would work well.
Actually no, he is just about as far away from the reality of the situation as you could be.
Pretty much every single major mechanic has been built with ffa, looting pvp in mind. All of it. Simply turning off pvp/having it as an optional event would have a significant impact upon the economic set up, the territorial warfare mechanics, the crafting/gathering dynamics, i.e. all the major systems. It's like saying "oh let's turn off pvp in EVE" as though that wouldn't totally fuck up the economic/territory meta game.
Having them alter/rebuild all that just to appeal to a consumerbase that they are not actually aiming at in the first place? Makes zero sense.
Wrong again, having them adjust the game to accomodate half a million subs or more makes, perfect sense. Stop acting like this is an fing mona lisa. This is software code and software code is meant to be CHANGED.
Originally posted by mastersomrat I understand this is a PvP game. That said, the goal of any company should be to make money. If you're an EA or an Activision, then sure, "making money" is going to be your main goal and games are merely your chosen product. If you're an indie game developer with limited staff and resources seeking to fill an otherwise mostly neglected niche, and to produce a very specific kind of gameplay experience, your main goal should be to produce a solid and fun game for your target playerbase. Produce a good game, you earn loyal players and the money follows. If you do it right, like Eve Online early on, you gain a loyal player-base that grows over time. Also, I'm pretty sure it's AV who decides what their desired or required level of "success" is. They are the ones investing all the time, money and resources and taking all the risk to produce it after all. First, there is no harm in making at least one PvE server. It wouldn't hurt PvP players or PvP servers as they would be on another server all together. Secondly, if the Dev's found there was much interest in the PvE side, they could simply start creating content for it. If they find no or little interest, it's a simple matter of flipping a switch to shut it down. Simply a matter of flipping a switch and shutting it down, eh? Just like that? That simple? So, you don't figure there'd be things like... oh I don't know... 1) Time and resources required to re-engineer the game to rip out everything that's PvP specific (almost everything) so it works and makes sense in an entirely PvE setting? 2) Create enough PvE content to "fill the gaps" left by removing all the PvP-specific content that would otherwise occupy the players? 3) Re-balance all the gameplay, combat and everything around an all PvE-based system? 4) Additional expenses for hardware and bandwitdh necessary to host, run and support the PvE server? 5) How about the fact that they would have to re-allocate, or split the effort/time of an already small dev team between essentially two different games? They'd have to deal with on-going updates, maintenance, patches, balancing, etc.. on essentially two different versions of Darkfall: UW. But with all that, you think the matter is no more involved or complicated than "flipping a switch and shutting them down if the PvE servers aren't popular enough"? Wow. Didn't quite think that through, did you? Just to drive the point home further, here's a paragraph taken directly from their announcement for DF:UW: "With clan warfare at the heart of every design decision, Unholy Wars calls you to build towering bases of power, conquer rival clan cities, engage in epic land and naval battles and seize control over holdings and territories as you forge your empire. Our role and school system brings tactics and teamwork to epic clan warfare like never before, allowing you to choose between the flexibility of multiple specializations or the focus of just one. Become the sharpest skirmisher in your clan, unbeatable with bow and shadow, or train a number of roles, wielding steel and plate knee deep in battlefield blood one day, then scorching your enemies with elemental magecraft from the walls of your clan city the next." That says it all. Wurm Online when it first released was also a crafting / PvP game and was doing vary poorly. They made a PvE server and found more folks wanted the PvE side than PvP. They also found at time, people wanted to play the PvP side, so made it so that people could travel from one to the other. Best of both worlds. I've played Wurm. It's a cool concept and a neat game. But it's nowhere near what AV is trying to accomplish with DF1, or with DF:UW. I'm not saying "better" or "worse". I'm saying "different". Wurm Online is a slower-paced game that is mostly about "building stuff". PvP rules are simply tacked on top of that; they aren't core to what the game is about. This is why they can "easily" create a non-PvP server without breaking the game. In Darkfall, PvP is at the core of almost everything the game is about. You can't just "toggle off PvP" from a game whose design is built entirely around player conflict (PvP) and call it "PvE".
Here's an idea. Contact AV. Tell them you'd love to play DF:UW, but only on a PvE server. Ask them what their expenses would be to implement such an idea, for initial development and then to get it off the ground, including the first month or two's sub fees. Then propose starting a Kickstarter campaign to raise funds for it. See if they'll get on board with such an idea.
If they are, then get everyone interested to donate to the Kickstarter fund. If you reach the required amount, then you will have proven that
A) There's sufficient player interest to make it worth their while
You're willing to actually invest in such an idea, such is your interest and desire to play the game.
C) AV will actually have enough money to make it happen.
If you're that keen on seeing it happen, then certainly donating the cost of a game box shouldn't dissuade you?
Even if they don't go for it, you've at least made yourself heard beyond posting haphazard suggestions on a message forum, no?
Originally posted by CcDohl Originally posted by 123443211234 Originally posted by CcDohl Originally posted by TangentPoint Originally posted by Hancakes Originally posted by googie23 its a great way to bring alot of new players into the darkfall world and when they are ready they can come to the PvP server and start a new character. never make an option to transfer from PvE to PvP.
If you dont like Mexican food, dont go to a Mexican restaurant and ask them to make you spaghetti.
There are a 1000 carebear games out there, why do you people insist on trying to change the few PVP ones?
Because the idea that others might enjoy something they don't might shake their confidence that their preferences are "the right ones". This is why you see people citing numbers or popularity of a given playstyle so much. "More people agree with me, so I'm right and you're wrong. So there!".
It's the whole "stop liking what I don't like" mindest in action.
That someone enjoys a game and finds it worth their time and money should be all the justification they need. For many, sadly, it isn't.
People who enjoy FFA PvP should absolutely have a game - even several - that they can play and enjoy. People who are "offended" by the idea just need to suck it up and go play a game they enjoy.
If you're looking for a great steak, you don't go to a Vegan restaurant. You go to a steakhouse. if you're looking for a solid PvE experience, you go to a PvE-centric MMO, not a FFA PvP one.
I'd like to see Darkfall: Unholy Wars succeed and wish AV all the best in pulling it off. I'd like to see Mortal Online somehow turn it around and succeed. I like that Eve Online is out there, alive and kickin' all these years later. There are people who enjoy those games, and it's great that they have those options. It doesn't have to be "Darkfall or Mortal or Eve". There should be plenty of room for everyone.
I still don't see the problem with a PVE server though. Assuming that the server is separate, with zero chance for crossover characters, and assuming that it makes money and brings more people to the games, it wouldn't harm any aspect of the currently existing game, and could work to improve it with the money that comes in from the new subscribers.
The only way a PVE server could be a negative is if it fails to bring enough people to support itself. That could affect the quality of the game, but the existance of the PVE server itself has zero effect on a pvp player's experience.
There are several problems which have been discussed in detail apparently you people pushing for a PVE server lack reading comprehension. Here are the top three reasons:
1. Core mechanics of DF are ffa pvp THE ENTIRE GAME IS DESIGNED AROUND PVP. (I know its hard for you carebears to imagine but DF is designed around conflict, they would have to change the entire game to make a pve server.
2. Aventurine is a very very small company, they do not have the resources to cater to pve players. (It would take a great deal of time and effort to maintain a pve server, thus taking away from their ability to maintain the pvp server, thus ruining the game)
3.Aventurine is making a game that THEY WANT TO PLAY. This means they do not care about millions of subs and world wide fame, they care about.....making a game they want to play.
Okay, fair enough. Obviously it would be a business decision that they would make. However, I don't see how it could be a bad thing if it brings in more players and money for the company. The only people who would be mad are the troglodytes who get angry over other people playing games a certain way. You're not a troglodyte, are you?
If it started to divert resouces away from AV's original vision then it would negitively affect the people who want DFO to remain fairly pure in design concept.
Games:Currently playing:NothingWill play: Darkfall: Unholy WarsPast games:Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher DuminousXpiher's GW2GW 1 - Xpiher DuminousDarkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retiredAoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retiredWarhammer - Xpiher
Originally posted by snapfusion Originally posted by 123443211234 NO Everything in Darkfall revolves around pvp and the ability to be killed at any time. A pve only server would be an entirely different game. Although the pve in Darkfall is better, harder, and more interesting than any other mmo I've ever played it will never come close to preparing someone for a pvp encounter. (i.e. your get comfortable and transfer comment)
NO really? Why because you would be tempted to play on it? Why in the hell do YOU care what people do with their own time? You dont like, dont play on it.
DF needs more subs and more money than their full loot PvP servers could ever produce. They need this revenue to bring REGULAR updates to the game. Something we never saw in the original DF.
A PvE / no loot PvP server for DFUW would quadruple their sub base the revenue base and the amount of conent.
you sir are off ur meds.... u counter his point that THIS IS A PVP GAME , and u want a PVE game (that will never happen ) ---and u tell him to " dont play it if u dont like it" ..LMFAO , sorry but this is the best post i have seen in this entire 14 page arguement -----u just said what EVERYONE is saying about this veing a PVP game and dont play it if u dont like it., and u reply back with the same thing ..but to support ur reason for a PVE server ... HAHAHAHAH
kettle meet pot .
Originally posted by snapfusion Originally posted by bunnyhopper Originally posted by snapfusion Originally posted by xpiher Originally posted by thinktank001 Originally posted by xpiher
Which part is "wrong again" exactly? Try put up specific, valid counterpoints and I might take you a bit more seriously.
"Hurr it's code it can be changedz", is a piss poor argument.
Changing the fundamentals of the game takes alot of time and hence a significant portion of money. Given we are talking about a small, indie company and given we are talking about a company which has expressed zero interest in deviating from their core pvp principles, the idea of whacking in pve servers is simply ludicrous. Even before you consider the subsequent support and development concerns of running essentially two game variants.
Some people need to start to grasp the fact that not every single game out there needs to be tailored to their needs. Is there scope for a quality pve sandbox? Sounds like crap to me but yes. Now should that be done via butchering Darkfall, a game centred on ffa, full loot pvp? Nope, that should be as clear as day to anyone with a modicum of common sense.
Maybe you should spend time petitioning Blizzard to make skill based, sandbox, pve servers for WoW. After all it's only code not the fing Mona Lisa. Moreoever they have a larger team and more money to make it happen. Quick get on the WoW forums and get asking, go, go, go!!!!
Oh and at people using the argument "They should want to make money". Er they do, but they don't want to completely destroy the vision of the game thay they want to make, just to squeeze out some extra dollars. For all their faults, thank God we still have companies in the genre that think like that.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Darkfall is the type of game that only ever wants to have 1 server. Its just like Eve online that has 1 server for the entire world, but sadly Darkfall is also half a FPS game, and pings higher than 200+ do not allow for a fluid gaming experience. So Darkfall has two servers, one for EU and NA (they are thinking about one more for Ocianic)
The main reason though as to why there will never be a PVE server, is because Darkfall is a Conquest game. Where players are supposed to fight for holdings (Citys and Hamlets). This would not be possible on a PVE server, I guess there could be a trading city feature added but why bother really? Darkfall has a very lack luster PVE experience also, and is really just a nessacery evil, to at the end of the day, PVP.
Originally posted by snapfusion You can never convince someone who only enjoys PvE that someone is cable of looking at the same game enviornment from a different perspective. To these guys PvP is a gank fest, something only done to grief carebears and noobs. I think its funny as hell to hear these PvE centric types tell other people how to play a game. These people are incapable of experiencing any emotion in a game unless they are either completely safe or know that their actions lack consequences or bearing upon the world. PvP stimulates no emotion or feelings by itself. There are millions of people that that find great pleasure out of exploring a game world, developing a character and farm materials for no other purpose but to engage other players or raze a city. Like many people said all over this thread, non loot scheduled territorial wars between clans and players would work horribly in a mostly PvE version of DF ,and be a total flop. As in opening mulitple servers for NA and then closing them again. It would also go against the whole philosophy behind DF and divert the devs' limited time and resources to something they never intended to do, something the target audience don't want. Much better if those crying for a PvE sandbox go pester some other forums, because a PvE server in DF will never happen. Live with it.
You had some typos there, I fixed them and added some stufff just to make it clearer.
Originally posted by googie23 its a great way to bring alot of new players into the darkfall world and when they are ready they can come to the PvP server and start a new character. never make an option to transfer from PvE to PvP.
NO NO NO and NO
Darkfall is a hardcore PVP full loot open world game, its not suppose to be an easy mode PVE game.
If you dont like what Darkfall is then dont play..
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Well stated. It's amazing how people think it's as simple as just "turning off PvP" and "voila" PvE server, with absolutely no thought or consideration for the cost in man-hours, hardware, bandwidth, etc. to produce and maintain it. It certainly explains how they can so easily use arguments like "they just flick a switch and turn it off" or "it's not the f'ing Mona Lisa" - both of those being equally ridiculous and uninformed assertions if one has even the absolute most basic understanding of programming and how complicated it can be to balance and interweave multiple complex systems into one big functioning whole.
I also agree that the "they need/want/should want to make money!" is a ridiculous and, again, poorly thought through argument. We're talking about a developer who went headlong into a genre where FFA PvP with full looting is a small niche, and invested the time and money into creating one anyway. They knew the risks and they knew the limited potential from the time they draw their first line of concept art. They aren't in this "for the money". They're in this to create a specific kind of game that they want to play, and that they know there are others who want to as well.
It's like telling someone opening an independent, "mom and pop" pizzeria that they "should want to make money, and the best way to do that is to open a location for one of the well-known chains instead, like Pizza Hut or Papa John's. After all more people know and like the pizza chains than would probably like their own recipe". The people opening mom and pop pizzerias aren't doing it "for the money", they're doing it for the love of owning their own pizzeria, selling their own unique recipes, from their own hand-made menus, in their own place, with their own decor and style and ambiance. The idea is that enough people like it and they earn enough customers to keep them in business, and continue doing what they love doing.
As you explained (and I touched on earlier), AV would essentially be running two different MMORPGs at that point, and having to give each version equal attention specific to its gameplay style, else they run the risk of one side claiming the other is being favored and they're being neglected. An already small team of about 30 people would have the task of doing for essentially two MMOs, what much bigger companies struggle to do with just one.
As I suggested, people could approach AV with the proposition of starting up a Kickstarter fund to generate the money required to create and launch a PvE server. Let those who are truly committed to the idea - and don't just want AV to take on 100% of the risk and cost on something that has no guarantee of being worth it in the end - put their money where their mouth is and show how dedicated they are to seeing it happen. Take some of the risk on themselves. And it'snot even like it's a "real" risk. Kickstarter doesn't take your money unless/until the goal is reached. It would be a symbolic gesture up to that point.
Somehow I doubt people are that committed to the premise though. They'll happily make every suggestion they can think up, as long as they're not the ones paying for it.
Darkfall is a PvP MMO. Leave it alone.
If spineless jellyfish like me want PvE only content .... then look elsewhere at other MMOs. If it gets changed that radically (PvE only content) then it will get ruined.
Darkfall is a MMO for people that like to PvP... don't change it.
(There... now the village idiot (me) has spoken his insane ramblings and now this question can be put to rest and the thread closed.)
Originally posted by Z3R01 If they made a pve server no one would be left playing on the pvp shards. Same thing happened with UO. Believe it or not most people prefer to not get ganked while farming materials and skills.
This is true.
I don't care either way, but I would say a stronger PvE model would be easily achieved with DF. There's a large sandbox following that enjoy the world / social building aspects of sandbox PvE. I would expect a larger player base would be interested in a PvE server and/or expanded PvE aspects to a PvP server.
From a business perspective, it would make sense as they could use additional PvE player base to fund PvP + PvE functionality.
Originally posted by rmk70 Originally posted by Z3R01 If they made a pve server no one would be left playing on the pvp shards. Same thing happened with UO. Believe it or not most people prefer to not get ganked while farming materials and skills.
So, AV should make the game they aren't interested in making. Then, maybe if they do well enough and make enough money above and beyond supporting the PvE version alone, they can reward themselves by making the game they actually wanted to make to begin with.
Yeah.. that's perfectly logical. Do some of you people even think through these suggestions before you make them? Honestly.
I feel like I'm witnessing the equivalent of a bunch of people standing outside a vegetarian restaurant trying to argue/haggle/plead with the owners to expand their restaurant to include a meat menu. "Seriously, maybe you could just make the meat-serving version of the restaurant first, and then use those funds to create the vegetarian menu you actually wanted to offer in the first place. That is the most sound business advice you will ever get and you'd be a fool not to agree!".
Maybe people looking for a sandbox experience sans PvP could go play Wurm Online, or A Tale In The Desert instead? It's actually a much more rational suggestion than the one you just put forth.
Attempting to use "Business Perspective" on a MMO usually tends to result in a broken product. Real Life examples far too numerous to list here.
It is considered "OK" to "swap customers" in the retail business world.... if they changed Darkfall by adding a PvE only server that is what the Devs would be doing. it is NOT "OK" to change a MMO product and drive away many of it's Player customers just to get the bigger group of Player customers.
I don't even play Darkfall and I know it's the wrong thing to do. Why? Because I have respect for the Players that DO play Darkfall NOW.
Originally posted by Gardavsshade Originally posted by rmk70 Originally posted by Z3R01 If they made a pve server no one would be left playing on the pvp shards. Same thing happened with UO. Believe it or not most people prefer to not get ganked while farming materials and skills.
Yeah, just ask SOE how selling out their existing playerbase in hopes of attracting a bigger one worked out for them.
That got real ugly real fast. And SOE actually had the funds to withstand the backlash. A small indie company like AV wouldn't.
Originally posted by TangentPoint Originally posted by Gardavsshade Originally posted by rmk70 Originally posted by Z3R01 If they made a pve server no one would be left playing on the pvp shards. Same thing happened with UO. Believe it or not most people prefer to not get ganked while farming materials and skills.
To me it's not about whether the MMO Publisher does or doesn't have the funds to survive the backlash...
It's about whether it's right or wrong from the perspective of the Player's themselves.... who ultimately fund the MMO ironically.
When a MMO Publisher offers a MMO for sale.... they are not selling a product... they are BUYING the loyalties of Player customers. I get the impression most MMO Publishers lose sight of that little tid bit.
Todays standards extreme hardcore PvE server with CRZ and dungeon finder tools in DF PvE server.
What kind of game could it be.
It will automatically throw players to areas wheres someone PvEing and it forces you to group with them and PvE with them no matter what they do.
If somebody kills some monster,monster wont die ,you can kill it also(somehow,next Blizzards invention) ,like gathering in GW2.
If you to try attack other player you start phasing where you fight against clone of that player,mm too PvPish ,if someone gets attacked by NPC then AI takes control and you must watch how your character heals and helps other player who is PvEing.
Some ways how to dumb down DF.
I don't care much about DF, but I hope they never cave into the MMOMob which floats its demands from game to game. For once in this era, an indie dev who is quite sucessful for what they are trying to do does not toss in its vision to seek the mass. They aren't selling out...not to big business nor to the angry homeless crowd.
Some of you are criticizing DF for doing exact what you criticized the bigger devs of not doing... creating and playing a game to their desire.
Originally posted by snapfusion
What a ridiculous argument.
Sofware code is meant to be changed only to the effect of doing its intended job as efficiently and consistently as possible, by fixing bugs, optimizing code, etc. Once the code is doing what it's designed to on a satisfactory level, "to spec", then the idea is to not change it. Specific bits of code can remain unchanged for years so long as it's doing what it's intended to.
This is why there's "code freeze" in software development. This is what Beta testing is intended to represent - the software is feature complete, all assets are in place, and now it's being tested for bugs or other issues in order to get it to "gold" status.
The point of software code is to change it as little as possible, and only when absolutely necessary.
To say "AV should change DF:UW to be more PvE instead of PvP because code is meant to be changed" is a pretty damn weak argument.
One flaw I see in a lot of the arguments is the assumption that DF would automatically get more subscriptions if they had a PvE shard. It doesn't necessarily follow that DF would get more subscriptions. The thing is, if they did have a PvE shard, they would have to get enough new subscriptions that both the PvE and PvP shards would feel at least as populated as the PvP shards are now. If it didn't work, they would be killing the game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
PVE in Darkfall was never a strong point.. sure it has some of the best AI out there... they attack, run away, dodge ranged attacks, go get mates, range attack you, close into melee and usually a combination of them all.. but still the game was not designed around PVE and anyone playing the game just for PVE would probally find a very very empty world and get bored really fast..
The main thing about darkfall is that you would PVE but you where always on edge as you know any second you could get jumped by a real player and maybe loose everything you have looted.. its a rush and without that rush and the PVP that brings Darkfall would be a very boring world...
I don't think you players understand it very much. A pure PvP game does work in its own way but when you have both you have a larger community and it creates more fun. You need to have PvE in all PvP games no matter what. If the game was all PvP than it would just be a FPS, which this game is not. It is supposed to simulate living in a harsh environment where the rules are be who you would like.
Think about how it was when the US became a country. There was plenty of places that allowed you to go and live but it was dangerous because there could be savages or bad people that would hurt you or take advantage of you. As you got closer to the larger communities there were laws and such. It all cannot be like the wild, you need to take a break somewhere.
Personally I enjoy the game as a red player, but that does not mean I will shut out the PvE community. They provide me with so much more than just my kill death ratio. Don't think of it as taking over your world, think of it as adding in a governed town that you can manipulate and take advantage of.
Come check out what I have to say on my blog http://civilgamer.com
Also check out http;//agonasylum.com for Darkfall player trading and stories forums
I would love to see a PVE server.. Not sure why so many are addamently against it, since there would most likely be an option for players to move over to PVP if they wanted to.
Is it because the PVP community fears most will jump at the chance to go PVE is the option was open reducing the population on the PVP servers, or is ti because they need those noobs to hunt down to satsify something they get by doing so?
I enjoyed the world in DF1, liked to explore fight the PVE monsters etc, but got tired of bunny hoping gankers who preyed on the noobs, or those of us less thitchy fingured that would get killed over and over again.
I heard the "go play another game" rant but the real fact is, if there was a PVE server, more players would jump in and and many would eventually end up trying the PVP side as well, thus increasing the population which is the biggest issue currently and could quickly become the new big issue as yet again many wil try the game if stuck in PVP only, play a month or 2 and then leave.
My perosnal thoughts as a player of MMO's since way back with the Isle of Kesma on Compuserve