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All these changes are the results of active forum feedbacks from the players. We did not want games that takes too much time. We wanted progression more than anything else. We wanted them to change stuff and they did it. Now, you want them to revert back to what we considered things that didn't make sense back then? The only way for this to happen is to get everybody who wants this kind of MMO to make it themselves because investors will not waste valuable manpower and money just so this minority can have their fun.
Tens of millions play online games. This site only has a little over 1.8million registered members. How many gamers actually posted in this thread? I highly doubt this "true mmo" people are looking for will even hit the decent mmo success humbers.
If an old school EQ clone, retaining that classic game's core philosophies, came on Kickstarter or something I would throw a few quid it's way.
Sadly though it would be very niche. Too many want AAA production values with which clearly would be a minority market indie game and have very little tolerance for imperfections or gradual live development.
Originally posted by VesaviusIf an old school EQ clone, retaining that classic game's core philosophies, came on Kickstarter or something I would throw a few quid it's way.
Originally posted by smh_alot Originally posted by Vesavius If an old school EQ clone, retaining that classic game's core philosophies, came on Kickstarter or something I would throw a few quid it's way.
Originally posted by aesperus Originally posted by xDrac I think you are exaggerating a little, lol. I don't think he's "belitteling" or "insulting". And really now, what he wrote is true. There's so few new and hard oldschool MMO's these days it's ridiculous.
Ever stop to think that maybe there's a reason there's so few of them?
Most MMO players don't seem to realize (or care) just how massive an undertaking it is to create a new MMO. Not only the cost, but also the time investment, finding enough of the right type of talent, etc. It's extremely costly.
So how is it possible that every big MMO released in last 5 years was a quick cashgrab, clearly designed to hold players attention for no more than 2 months? What is the point of making MMORPGs like that, if it is such an enormous time and money investment?
It looks to me that it's not a time/money investment at all, it is just a marketing strategy to copy and sell the same crap to people over and over again, becouse there is much bigger probabilty that they will buy new crap, with new look and name, as opposed to subscribing to old crap, the one that they already know is crap and are sick of.
I actually am preatty sure that MMO developers make broken and unfinished games on purpouse, becouse, if they would ever make one great game, with no bugs and full of content, nobody would buy new MMOs for years, or they would need to make even better game than the old one, which would cost more time and money than making same old crappy game and would cause developer to actually make less money in the end.
It is something you could call "Collective Let's-not-raise-the-bar-and-sell-crap-instead Aggreament"
Originally posted by CalmOceans Originally posted by Quirhid
I have no idea what game that is, probably a PVP game where it's cool to look down on your guildies as inferior. Since that is what I see in most PVP games, you have to be better than the person next to you and you get ahead by pushing someone else down. You grief and destroy the fun of others and it's more about your standing within the community than the community itself.
This is why I don't play PVP, PVE requires mutual respect, and you would have never become a guild leader in EQ if you talked about your guildies saying "crack the whip".
People don't understand what was hard in EQ because they never played it, it was about much more than gameplay, it was about respecting others so you didn't get a bad name for yourself, it was about being able to lead a guild with 60 other players, willingness to listen to others and ability to communicate. All the cool kids thrive in PVP games since it's cool tolook up to someone who acts "boss" in a game, in PVE the people who thrive in those games tend to be moms and calmer individuals, since it's more about acceptance and respect than it is about rankings. Your game is very different, PVP games are solely about competition, not common interest, this is why they have the reputation and stigma attached to them and why so many people are starting to avoid them.
I don't know why you've build such a stereotype but I like what I do. I'm not on an egotrip. I'm not there to stroke my e-peen - not the rankings. I love the competition. I love the challenge. I love to master something. In the end I'm there to beat myself.
They wanted to win and they put me in charge. I was not a dictator. And I respect anyone who deserves respect. I didn't look down on anyone. And if you want success, sometimes you need to crack the whip if the situation calls for it. First you need people to focus on the right things instead of the wrong things - weed the bad habits and tactics. Then you plant a mindset and nurture it.
How can you say its not about common interest when everyone on board is trying their best to make the group succeed? And afterwards while some quit under my leadership, more people said they it was awesome: That they've never experienced games like that. I like to think I made a positive impact overall... sparked few competitive PvPers.
All the clans and guilds I've been involved have been very close, and often we've played games past the one we bumped into each other. Now say that is not about respecting others, social or whatever skewed stereotype you're trying to fit me into.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by SimonVDH Originally posted by aesperus Originally posted by xDrac I think you are exaggerating a little, lol. I don't think he's "belitteling" or "insulting". And really now, what he wrote is true. There's so few new and hard oldschool MMO's these days it's ridiculous.
...because it is worth it? Why else?
Originally posted by Kyleran Originally posted by Lord.Bachus To the OP... The majorrity of MMO players is actually very happy with things like dungeon finders, instance quests crossrealm interaction and such So dont say We need, but refer to me and my friends, or even the very lonely I. When do people like the OP start to realise they are currently a very small minority.
If a majority of players are happy with these features, why do they leave most MMO's so quickly.
What are they looking for to keep them playing for longer than 2-3 months?
They aren't leaving because of the features. They are leaving because the gameplay or content is lacking. Study up on causation and correlation.
You make me like charity
Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by xDrac Originally posted by Quirhid
You wrote that and still managed to squeeze in few insinuations and derogatory terms. Your whole post is belittling, insulting.
The problem for you and posters like you, is your hostile attitude and your overflowing bitterness and disdain. How the hell do you expect people to respond to that? What kind of image does that create of old-school players? Social and friendly my ass...
I think you are exaggerating a little, lol. I don't think he's "belitteling" or "insulting".
And really now, what he wrote is true. There's so few new and hard oldschool MMO's these days it's ridiculous.
First, old school MMOs were not hard. They did not require more skill, just more time. Second, the whole notion that there is a type of "true MMO" out there is belittling.
I don't think I am exaggerating. There's too much to pick up from that one post alone. It is absolutely oozing with hate.
Not another person begging for "group dependant MMO". No thanks. I won't play it.
But we do need to return to the sandbox games. I'm sick to death of the pvp and themepark focused games.
Originally posted by Moirae Not another person begging for "group dependant MMO". No thanks. I won't play it. But we do need to return to the sandbox games. I'm sick to death of the pvp and themepark focused games.
What is the point of an mmo if you can eaily solo the content? Why not just play a single person rpg, for that sort of play style it would be a massively superior product, at leat if you pick a good one.
Originally posted by KingGator Originally posted by Moirae Not another person begging for "group dependant MMO". No thanks. I won't play it. But we do need to return to the sandbox games. I'm sick to death of the pvp and themepark focused games.
Did I say somewhere that I wanted it to be easy? Or that I wanted it all to be solo? Nope, I didn't. Even EQ wasn't "group only", you know. And that game was hard core dedication.
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus To the OP... The majorrity of MMO players is actually very happy with things like dungeon finders, instance quests crossrealm interaction and such
No, WoW fans and Diablo fans are happy with those features.
Core MMORPG fans, the type of people that enjoy virtual worlds, socializing, and, well, MMORPGs, see those features as the antithesis of the genre.
Originally posted by Fondel Darkfall Unholy Wars anyone?
Yup, this, Vanguard, and Planetside 2 seem to be the best choices for classic MMOs in the near future.
Raph Koster of SWG (and other games) design fame said in a recent video that MMOs, in the mold of what they originally were, are no longer being made. And haven't been.
He called what is being made these days "SPG games in shared space" (or words to that effect).
And I strongly agree.
What is lacking are things like player interdependency, social hubs/functions, real functioning economies, and allowing for multiple playstyles.
That is what most of these "1-month wonders" that MMO makers are putting out have been sorely lacking.
Thing is, for the person looking for a good, well made sandbox-ish game (and who doesn't like EvE), there is nothing out there.
And there is very little hope either, on the horizon we have DF whatever, made by the same clowns that put out the first one as a buggy, exploit riddled mess, and Archage, which if it ever comes out in the West will have a cash shop, and that is something that has no real place in a sandbox MMO.
So, no, there is not a whole lot out there for people looking for that.
Yeah, we need a true MMO. A game that translates the great experience of pen and paper into a computer game. So far have nothing been even close (and only a few with UO in the lead did even try).
But difficulty is not what makes a true MMO, even if I prefer more than what we seen in games lately.
Originally posted by Loke666 Yeah, we need a true MMO. A game that translates the great experience of pen and paper into a computer game. So far have nothing been even close (and only a few with UO in the lead did even try). But difficulty is not what makes a true MMO, even if I prefer more than what we seen in games lately.
I'd love to see something that brings that pnp feel to a graphical MMO. I'm starting to think it isn't going to happen though. While I don't kid myself, I am probably going to give Neverwinter a shot just to see what the community can do with the ugc tools, if ever a community was destine to make something interesting it was the NW players.
there "were" alot of good MMO's out there but as always the creators get greedy and ruin the game by releasing content that we dont need.
For example of some good MMO's ruined by company gettign greedy..
Rohan BloodFued: YNk came out with Epic weapons and litteraly killed the game.
Grand Fantasia: They made fortification increase without increasing the dificulty of make the mobs stronger therefore all u need is a little cash and you can solo the whole game and no need for a healer or tank.
Luminary Rise of goonzu: not much i can say bout this game. it was a social political game that was ruined by the players itself.
i mean i can go on and on but, there is never gona be one game that not gonna get ruined by a greedy company wanting more money. there are other way of getting more moeny with out ruining the game. examples:
level cap increase
NEW CLASSES!! <<---- dont see much of this anymore..
Oh my, if only I had the funds, I'd give you your MMO. It would have a massive world. It would take real time weeks to cross on foot. So most people, unless they become adventurous would rarely go beyond the confines of where they started in the game. That is not a bad thing. There would be plenty to do within the area you start within the game. There would be no classes. No levels. It would be skill based(limited of course). Stats based(limited here as well). Your stats and skills would define what you can and cannot do. A player with low str is not going to be wearing platemail and weilding a huge arse sword for instance. I think I would take the basic game of Mount and Blade(keep the combat and archery as is for the most part) and then make a hybrid online persistent world based on a medieval setting. There would be quest of sorts - but nothing like we see in todays MMO's. Your actions would have an impact. For intance...
Let's say you are part of a growing village. It requires resources to stay healthy. You as a player can do a number of things to help keep the village healthy - either by being a farmer - or by hunting - maybe fishing. As long as you do your part and provide to the health of the village - it'll grow and become stronger. You may have to fight off brigands from time to time. Maybe even go on caravan duty to protect a cities caravan from bandits. Maybe wolves are raiding farms and killing livestock. You as a player would need to go hunt them down. There would be endless possibilites for you the player to partake of. Who knows...you might even one day live long enough to see your village become a city and that city beome the capitol of a kingdom and you it's King or Queen. How cool would that be?
So my game would be like Mount and Blade - crossed with Age of Empires - and Skyrim, but be an MMORPG through and through.
Dragnon - Guildmaster - Albion Central Bank in Albion Online
"We DO need. A somewhat hard mmo. One that relays on the guy next to you having a hard time soloing too. A game that joining a guild means something, and helps the players progress as a team. Make a friend that you click with?....Add him to your friends list....It's all about survival in a hard world."
Don't we already have Darkfall for this? I mean seriously...No sorry. I'm being semi sarcastic. Well Shadowbane wasn't really sandbox-ish (was it?) but I wish .. really wish that it went open source specifically to sort this kind of dilemma. Won't happen though. Actually something did happen. Wait what? Like every MMO...
Look... To me it doesn't matter which old school title we came from. It's not the game mechanics. It's not the rulesets, level/map/world design, skill trees, class stats' modifiers bla bla bla. It's the players. New or old. Warped expectations. That's all and that's the fucking problem.
F2P. P2P. Don't matter. Waste bandwidth for gigabytes of the installer. Set game + forum accs. Waste time from char/class customizations. Go out look at NPCs, maybe look at global chat and then figured "OK maybe I'll solo this 1st 20..". Or maybe 1 time paid for an acc, waste time + bandwidth again for the installer. Rinse. Repeat. Oh? It's good? OK I'll pay for next month again.
For example the previously mega "Why can't I solo in a MMO?" debacle. It's simple. Right intention. Wrong genre. Grey wanted to be seen in black or white. Went for about hundreds of pages that thread iirc.
Newer generation of MMO players are primed, optimized and desensitized in a Twitter-rage, iChat, Whatsapp, Facebook environs and thinks that a 10Mb bigger file to their phones'or tablets' Dungeon Hunter 3 installation is an unnecessary addition w/o even making the effort to read changelogs or comprehend why. It's socializing in acronyms and abbreviations. It's not even a proper verbal exchange with correct spellings. We have kids right now who can't even form proper sentences to hang onto their dear lives on manual essays. This phenom irks the older player base while the young uns are just too plugged in and out to even be bothered. Older players should have naturally exercised just enough years-forged patience nonetheless...but the lot of us choose to ridicule, isolate and/or just ignore the community factor.
This is now. Progress we like it or not will always be a moving target. MMO publishers' idea/symbol of a community stat are the sales stat. Smaller/indie devs maybe. Overall everyone, their paid girlfriends and expenses need to be well funded. Preferably long term.
When you try to get into something with proportionate positive:negative ratio whilst lacking control over the negative, it will be negative.
You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!
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Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy? :P
I agree OP, and that's why I'm 99% sure I'm going to buy the new Darkfall release.
Who f**king cares if my gear get taken, I want an MMO that doesn't feel like someone is holding my hand the whole way.
Originally posted by ZigZags I think what the OP needs is to give the new Darkfall a chance once it comes out. That was one of the hardest MMOs I played since UO
Thank you for your concern for the us that would like mmo's back Zig.
However I would like to back myself up a bit by saying that both I and many of us would like harder, not full hard. Just something that works better with a community. A game that is risky to leave that safe haven of a city town or outpost. An mmo that can be played solo when your just not in that kind of mood to talk chat or group every minute of play. But one that AS YOU LOG IN FRIENDS ARE ALREADY ASKING IF YOU CAN HEAL TANK OR DPS, or simply play together because your not selfish.
An mmo where you know the environment, all the fun features because you know all that already. BUT your logging on to be part of, feel needed. Like UO, EQ, EQ2,Vanguard,Vanella WoW,EvE,D&D Online, LOTRO. I'm absolutely sure there is a full market for games like this, They just need to be made better by 2012 standards, AND VERY IMPORTANT NEVER GO F2P. This kills the communities too. Who is Paying ?...Who is not ?...Who is gimped because they never paid a cent....How can someone really trying to progress know who they are trying to play with.
What would be nice :
I'm sorry, I don't think a single voice could be of any help to developers, BUT if mmorpg.com could set up some sort of voting system, and pass there findings on to developers, they may take some advice.....BECAUSE DEVELOPERS ARE ACTING ON THERE OWN IN MAKING EASY MODE. They think everyone loves WoW's easy mode !!!
Have to run off to work now, I'm late...........
Originally posted by Scot We could try and sort the funding out on Kickstarter, only need 20 million dollars, about 16 million pounds, easy.
this >>> http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/09/project-eternitys-all-star-effort-to-revive-the-classic-pc-rpg/ ~ Arcanum I want that back soooo bad. But this is OT. And if even with them street cred, they got as of now $2,168,211 pledged of $1,100,000 goal it doesn't seem that easy. I would have thought it's double that by now.