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Is it too early to call GW2 a flop?

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  • dariuszpdariuszp PrzeworskPosts: 182Member
    Originally posted by mxbx
    The fact is, this is just another in a long line of flops that's failing to live up to the hype.  Does anyone seriously deny that ArenaNet is spiking their sales numbers?  And let's not forget: it failed as F2P right out of the gate, where ToR and many other games managed to run P2P for at least a few months.  How can the ArenaNet fanbois call ToR a failure and GW2 a success when ToR managed to hold subs for months? 

    You understand that TOR didn't hold people right ? They come and go just like me and my friends (they ALL played TOR and now we all play GW2. Difference is that we stop playing TOR after less than a month and we were bored after 1-2 weeks while we still play GW2 and have a blast wasting noobs in PVP).

    They are moving to F2P because came is too weak to pay sub for it. And it was failing fast because not so long ago Bioware said many times that F2P is "no go" and they are not even think about it at this point. And BAM!, they are going F2P because sub base went sh**. 

    So why we cal GW2 a success ? Because it sell like hell, it's fun like hell, it's group oriented, it upgraded many things from MMO genre (or borrow good parts) and it's still fun. Except class story TOR is inferior to GW2 in EVERY aspect. Only advantage tor have is dialogue system from ME and only that. Because story itself is also inferior because GW2 stories branch and change while in TOR it's linear like the whole game.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
    Originally posted by bcbully From a financial stand point it probably isn't, depending on how much profit they were looking to make. It would be interesting to see what last quarter's report projected.   From a personal stand point it tops my list of flops, if I go by play time.. This is the shortest time I've played an mmo.
    There is no such thing as "financial flop vs perosnal flop"

    Flop is ALWAYS considered on a financial/popularity perspective.

    Personal is just called opinions/dislikes/disappointments, because you may be in the minority of the total buyer that don't like it and stop playing, especially considering the sample size of you out of 2 million people.

    You can't take a quantitive word and use it as a qualitive word - because if you do so you are intentionally distorting it's meaning just to falsify your opinion as fact. 


    lol

    These forums are amazing sometimes.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,278Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
    Originally posted by bcbully

    From a financial stand point it probably isn't, depending on how much profit they were looking to make. It would be interesting to see what last quarter's report projected.

     

    From a personal stand point it tops my list of flops, if I go by play time.. This is the shortest time I've played an mmo.

    There is no such thing as "financial flop vs perosnal flop"

    Flop is ALWAYS considered on a financial/popularity perspective.

    Personal is just called opinions/dislikes/disappointments, because you may be in the minority of the total buyer that don't like it and stop playing, especially considering the sample size of you out of 2 million people.

    You can't take a quantitive word and use it as a qualitive word - because if you do so you are intentionally distorting it's meaning just to falsify your opinion as fact. 

  • DjildjameshDjildjamesh maasdijkPosts: 406Member Uncommon

    GW2 was not disigned to be a lasting MMO  (Meaning you buy it, play for 1-5 months - > put away)  < ArenaNet's own words.

    THAT'S why they gave it a BTP modell and that's why there isn't any raiding modell in game.

     

    Too many of you seem to forget that. GW1 was made with that same ideal (and that wasn't even an MMO).

    This game is a huge succes and the numbers show.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,278Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Djildjamesh

    GW2 was not disigned to be a lasting MMO  (Meaning you buy it, play for 1-5 months - > put away)  < ArenaNet's own words.

    THAT'S why they gave it a BTP modell and that's why there isn't any raiding modell in game.

     

    Too many of you seem to forget that. GW1 was made with that same ideal (and that wasn't even an MMO).

    This game is a huge succes and the numbers show.

    Could you show me this quote from anet please?

  • ValkaernValkaern OxfordPosts: 512Member

    You could, but why would you? They were happily surprised with their sales figures, which, as I recall , exceeded their initial expectations. 

    The servers are all active, even levelling alts finds us playing with large crowds of people, every single one of these seem to point towards the exact opposite of a flop.

    Actually, typing this out after having been in game just kind of makes me chuckle - maybe impressions from those eager for it to fail with opinions informed primarily by these forums and no real facts could lead you to such a poor conclusion, but it certainly seems far from the case.

    I'd wait until player populations were noticably declining, rather than seemingly increasing - although, then you'd want to change the title to 'Is it too early to say population's declining?' as 'flop' would imply it wasn't successful - which is a conclusion only the least informed troll would even pretend to arrive at after news of its successful launch was all but inescapable. And I'm sure that's not your goal, right?;)

  • IndromeIndrome NortheimPosts: 292Member

    I don't understand what you people want from threads like this. What - if anything - do you intend to learn here / accomplish with this?

    And YES! it's too early. My god, it's been less than two months!

    And on what basis would one even call GW2 a flop? WvWvW is still fraggin' overbooked and active as it's ever been. Personally, I haven'T noticed any significant decline in population per zone (even the low LvL zones are still packed with DE-zergs). And apart from the meta-issues (inflation, accounts being hacked, botting/scamming/goldselling) the core gameplay is very much bug-free.

    Considering in SWToR I was crash-disconnected every few half hours in the beginning I'd call GW2 ... "efficiently resilient" if anything.

    image

  • RavingRabbidRavingRabbid Virginia beach, VAPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon
    It's a flop for me in a sense in that I rarely play anymore due to its repetitive and shallow gameplay. It's not a flop I believe in a financial sense or that it still has a decent player base still ATM. Time will tell. 

    All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care.
    Playing: SWTOR, ESO, WOT, and Marvel Heroes

  • jondifooljondifool cphPosts: 1,114Member
    Originally posted by mxbx
    The fact is, this is just another in a long line of flops that's failing to live up to the hype.  Does anyone seriously deny that ArenaNet is spiking their sales numbers?  And let's not forget: it failed as F2P right out of the gate, where ToR and many other games managed to run P2P for at least a few months.  How can the ArenaNet fanbois call ToR a failure and GW2 a success when ToR managed to hold subs for months? 

    No its not to early to call GW2 a flop. Its to LATE.

    When something has proven itself a success, its is to late to argue its a flop.

    And OP trying to invent arguments out of the blue, like claiming that ArenaNet is lying about sales numbers, is the best prove there is that there is no real foundation to call it anything but a success.

     

    read how to create a succesfull mmo before posting about GW2. And read tao of ArenaNet before talking about innovation in GW2

  • XasapisXasapis VolosPosts: 5,561Member Uncommon

    I think it comes down to expectation from their developers and the monetary model.

    If GW2 was a subscription game, that 2M boxes sold would mean little if the game had only retained 500.000 the first month and diminishing the second and onwards.

    Or to put it backwards, if SW:TOR didn't have a subscription, with the 2M boxes sold, it would be considered a massive success, regardless of the amount of people currently playing it.

     

    Basically people think that retention is very relevant in a subsciption based game when measuring success or failure, but irrelevant in a game that is based solely on box sales and a cash shop.

  • ExcessionExcession NottinghamPosts: 367Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bcbully

    From a financial stand point it probably isn't, depending on how much profit they were looking to make. It would be interesting to see what last quarter's report projected.

     

    From a personal stand point it tops my list of flops, if I go by play time.. This is the shortest time I've played an mmo. 

    Even shorter than your TSW play time?

    Considering you were hyping TSW and trolling GW2 threads before they both launched, surely TSW is a bigger flop for you than GW2.

     

    A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.

  • arctarusarctarus nilPosts: 2,570Member Uncommon
    For a b2p game, guess you will have to depend on the servers status, if pops start dropping, and a few rounds of merges happen, than yap, its starting to flop. It doesn't hold my attention, and like some posters here, its the shortest time I spend in a mmo.

    RIP Orc Choppa

  • papaz1papaz1 BrommaPosts: 27Member

    I don't quite understand, why would you call it a flop?

    - Lots of boxes sold - check

    - Great reviews and reception - check

    - Doing well on xfire - check

     

    Add to that no subscription + Anet adding ladders/ranking soon.

     

    What were you expecting?

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,000Member Uncommon

    It depends on how you define "flop". If you assumed it to beat Wow in players worldwide the first month and keep all players for many years then yes.

    But remember that ANETs goal was 3 million copies sold this year. More than that makes the game no flop no matter what you personally think. It sold 2 million copies in 2 weeks and is still selling pretty well, in fact most of my game stores had it sold out almost the entire month.

    So I think it will get the estimated sales it had and calling something that made the goal a flop is just stupid.

    Then again, it might fail to reach the goal, it is still hard to say.

    But you shouldnt really compare a B2P MMO with a P2P or F2P game. They have different goals. P2P just want to keep you playing forever and therefore add more and more grind to keep you going. F2P focus on selling as much items as they can, they dont really care how long you play, just how much stuff you buy. B2P want you to buy the boxes and expansions. If you play a month or or a year doesnt really matter as long as you get the next expansion and play for a while after it is out.

    I played GW1 on and off for 5 years, bought all expansions.I assume I will do the same with GW2. Of course I will alternate it with other games and take breaks, probably some longer but I will buy the expansions and I have really fun when I play.

    I also played EQ2 for 5 years but there I often felt forced to log in, both because I payed for it and to keep my gear updated instead of just logging in whgen I enjoyed it.

    But, no. I dont think GW2 flopped. But we wont know anything for sure until january.

  • MukeMuke BredaPosts: 2,172Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mxbx
    The fact is, this is just another in a long line of flops that's failing to live up to the hype.  Proof please, facts, not personal opinions
    Does anyone seriously deny that ArenaNet is spiking their sales numbers?  Again, show facts, proof where you got that information
    And let's not forget: it failed as F2P right out of the gate, Facts? Figures? Sale figures?
    where ToR and many other games managed to run P2P for at least a few months. that worked out great, didn't it?
    How can the ArenaNet fanbois unbiased OP? call ToR a failure and GW2 a success when ToR managed to hold subs for months? You see a succesful game when you notice a $300M budget, years of hyping, saying you go head to head with Blizzard, get negative response from the community after release + you do server closures/mergers starting within 5 months after release!

     

    Again, a disgruntled player, creating a thread asking a question yet is too eager to let his personal opinion run wild on him and make the decision for you.

    This time a player from SWTOR bashing at a MMO that has absolutely nothing to do with GW2, different genre, absolute nobody (just a paying customer frustrated by seeing less & less population) making conclusions on made-up facts.

    It's not Arenanet's fault that Swtor is dying a horrible death.You should whine about Bioware, not Arenanet because they did it right.

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,000Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Muke
    Originally posted by mxbx
    The fact is, this is just another in a long line of flops that's failing to live up to the hype.  Proof please, facts, not personal opinions
    Does anyone seriously deny that ArenaNet is spiking their sales numbers?  Again, show facts, proof where you got that information
    And let's not forget: it failed as F2P right out of the gate, Facts? Figures? Sale figures?
    where ToR and many other games managed to run P2P for at least a few months. that worked out great, didn't it?
    How can the ArenaNet fanbois unbiased OP? call ToR a failure and GW2 a success when ToR managed to hold subs for months? You see a succesful game when you notice a $300M budget, years of hyping, saying you go head to head with Blizzard, get negative response from the community after release + you do server closures/mergers starting within 5 months after release!

    Again, a disgruntled player, creating a thread asking a question yet is too eager to let his personal opinion run wild on him and make the decision for you.

    This time a player from SWTOR bashing at a MMO that has absolutely nothing to do with GW2, different genre, absolute nobody (just a paying customer frustrated by seeing less & less population) making conclusions on made-up facts.

    It's not Arenanet's fault that Swtor is dying a horrible death.You should whine about Bioware, not Arenanet because they did it right.

    Well, it do make sense that sales have spiked as he say. You usually sell more of a game the first week than any other week. But GW2 dont need to keep those numbers up, it just need to sell a few thousand games every week to do great.

    But you are also wrong, there have never been any proof of TOR costing $300M, someone just trolled it a long time ago and people assume it for a fact ever since. Fact is that it costed more than GTA IV to make ($120M), how much more is something EA keeps secret but it is likely half of what the rumor say.

  • CallsignVegaCallsignVega Chicago, ILPosts: 235Member Uncommon
    Just because GW2 sold two million copies doesn't mean it's a good game. People go in droves to see the worst movies ever made...
  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,000Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CallsignVega
    Just because GW2 sold two million copies doesn't mean it's a good game. People go in droves to see the worst movies ever made...

    Yes, but that has what to do with the topic? 

  • MukeMuke BredaPosts: 2,172Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by Muke
    Originally posted by mxbx
    The fact is, this is just another in a long line of flops that's failing to live up to the hype.  Proof please, facts, not personal opinions
    Does anyone seriously deny that ArenaNet is spiking their sales numbers?  Again, show facts, proof where you got that information
    And let's not forget: it failed as F2P right out of the gate, Facts? Figures? Sale figures?
    where ToR and many other games managed to run P2P for at least a few months. that worked out great, didn't it?
    How can the ArenaNet fanbois unbiased OP? call ToR a failure and GW2 a success when ToR managed to hold subs for months? You see a succesful game when you notice a $300M budget, years of hyping, saying you go head to head with Blizzard, get negative response from the community after release + you do server closures/mergers starting within 5 months after release!

    Again, a disgruntled player, creating a thread asking a question yet is too eager to let his personal opinion run wild on him and make the decision for you.

    This time a player from SWTOR bashing at a MMO that has absolutely nothing to do with GW2, different genre, absolute nobody (just a paying customer frustrated by seeing less & less population) making conclusions on made-up facts.

    It's not Arenanet's fault that Swtor is dying a horrible death.You should whine about Bioware, not Arenanet because they did it right.

    Well, it do make sense that sales have spiked as he say. You usually sell more of a game the first week than any other week. But GW2 dont need to keep those numbers up, it just need to sell a few thousand games every week to do great.

    But you are also wrong, there have never been any proof of TOR costing $300M, someone just trolled it a long time ago and people assume it for a fact ever since. Fact is that it costed more than GTA IV to make ($120M), how much more is something EA keeps secret but it is likely half of what the rumor say.

    I stand corrected about that 300M then.

    Still:

    I would like to see facts that gw2 is already dying.

    GW2 is just released, I see full servers, whenever I get swtor mails I see 'servers closing/merging, original owners jumping ship', I log in, empty servers, lacking content when playing....

    I like swtor personally, so I would like to know where the OP got his facts from, because obviously he's some sort of medium.

     

     

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,818Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Xasapis

    I think it comes down to expectation from their developers and the monetary model.

    If GW2 was a subscription game, that 2M boxes sold would mean little if the game had only retained 500.000 the first month and diminishing the second and onwards.

    Or to put it backwards, if SW:TOR didn't have a subscription, with the 2M boxes sold, it would be considered a massive success, regardless of the amount of people currently playing it.

     

    Basically people think that retention is very relevant in a subsciption based game when measuring success or failure, but irrelevant in a game that is based solely on box sales and a cash shop.

    No.

    SW:TOR $150-300M budget - So to just recoup investment of $150M they would need to sell 3M copies and that would be with them grabbing all the money from a sale. So more like 5 or 6 million sales.

    GW2: $50M tops and I doubt NCSoft would spend even that. 2M sales for Anet generated over $100M with a significant portion of direct digital sales.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • ZigZagsZigZags Modesto, CAPosts: 328Member
    I would say so in the sense that its not the WoW killer that all the fanbois wanted it to be. Fact is, GW2 doesn't offer anythign new that other games already do better.

    Now: Skyrim
    Later: ?
    Played: M59, UO, EQ, Runescape, DAOC, SB, EQ2, WoW, EVE, Darkfall, AoC, FFXI, FFXIV, WAR, SWTOR
    BOYCOTTING: EA/BioWare/Origin/SOE

  • XasapisXasapis VolosPosts: 5,561Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Xasapis

    I think it comes down to expectation from their developers and the monetary model.

    If GW2 was a subscription game, that 2M boxes sold would mean little if the game had only retained 500.000 the first month and diminishing the second and onwards.

    Or to put it backwards, if SW:TOR didn't have a subscription, with the 2M boxes sold, it would be considered a massive success, regardless of the amount of people currently playing it.

     

    Basically people think that retention is very relevant in a subsciption based game when measuring success or failure, but irrelevant in a game that is based solely on box sales and a cash shop.

    No.

    SW:TOR $150-300M budget - So to just recoup investment of $150M they would need to sell 3M copies and that would be with them grabbing all the money from a sale. So more like 5 or 6 million sales.

    GW2: $50M tops and I doubt NCSoft would spend even that. 2M sales for Anet generated over $100M with a significant portion of direct digital sales.

    You are arguing numbers, I'm arguing mentality. Assuming numbers were equal (which will never be), don't you think that the subscription model will always be considered a flop due to retention, regardless of units sold? Even if the developers recoup their original investment with just the original box price?

  • ShorunShorun ViennaPosts: 248Member Uncommon

    GW2 just isn't a flop. They certainly sold enough copies to make profit.

  • ZigZagsZigZags Modesto, CAPosts: 328Member
    Originally posted by Shorun

    GW2 just isn't a flop. They certainly sold enough copies to make profit.

    I dont think thats what the OP is saying. It flopped because it didnt live up the its SUPER DUPER MMO OF THE FUTURE expectations..

     

    SWTOR made a profit...but I think everyone here would agree it was the biggest failure/let down in MMO history.

    Now: Skyrim
    Later: ?
    Played: M59, UO, EQ, Runescape, DAOC, SB, EQ2, WoW, EVE, Darkfall, AoC, FFXI, FFXIV, WAR, SWTOR
    BOYCOTTING: EA/BioWare/Origin/SOE

  • YakkinYakkin irvine, CAPosts: 919Member

    If you are asking about whether it was a flop in terms of living up to expectations of the masses as a whole, I cannot say, because the masses are too diverse in their expectations for me to tell something like that.

    If you are asking about whether it was a flop for those who expected the second coming, then I would answer "maybe, depending on how satisfied they were."

    If you are asking about whether it flopped for people who hated/disliked the game, then it's an obvious yes/most likely, although once again, it depends on how much they expected it to fail.

    If you are asking me whether it's a flop, I would say no. I enjoyed the game for what it is, and thus it is not a flop in my eyes.

This discussion has been closed.