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Feeling rapid decay of enthusiasm
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I think this was were and when I felt that DEs were just quest that you hopped in on whenever and get xp.
I think ANET made a very big mistake in design: they gave out the reward too early. RPGs traditionally have been about the evolution or journey of a character. Usually, this character starts small (an ordinary peasant or civilian) and the goal is to become a hero in the end. The story is layed out in a way to guide that character to becoming this. Mechanics-wise, levels are used to create and measure one's progression through that journey. For a level to be meaningful, there has to be some new reward for gaining it (a new ability, enhanced stats, etc). So the levels stop from feeling monotonous, the designer usually ups the scales with each level gain (e.g. you got this cool ability at level 1, well at level 10 you get this even cooler one!) What ANET basically did was remove this. In doing so, your character basically feels like it plateaus at level 5. All thats really left is the story (not its strongest suit) and the world to explore.
There's nothing wrong with that, but the game tries really hard to be an RPG...or at least tries to think it is one.
I'm starting to think ANET was trying to create a new genre, or simply overlooked the basic fundamentals about the one they were working in. In their effort to be different, they lost sight of those core components that, once removed, leaves the game as a mere reminder of something that we used to play.
It's been very hard to come to this conclusion, but I believe I have come to it honestly.
Guild Wars 2 makes the mistake of trying too hard to be different than WoW that it has forgotten how to be an RPG. Just throwing people together does not an MMORPG make.
Edit: this is all my opinion, of course. I am not trying to pass any of this on as fact.
It is a chain and it is dynamic. Once you push the centaurs to the end of the zone, they will keep trying to retake their lands, and if you fail they will get their camps back, but it doesnt 'magically reset' back to step 1 at any point. Its a system of constant attacks back and forth. When we got to the zone there had been noone there to defend it, so not only were the centaurs in their camps, but they were also in the human settlements. That is how the dynamic event chains work, there isnt a magical reset at any point, and most people in the level 1-80 rush only ever saw the first step of these events, since there were so many players that the failure conditions werent triggering.
Edit: What you probably missed was the massive centaur attacks on the camps. Its tough to defend against, but you most certainly can stop them from retaking the land. If you were off doing something else I guess it was easy for you to miss this.
What probably helps me is having a job...
What are you even doing on this site? Low tolerance for doing the same things over and over in a MMO hahahahaha.
Guild Wars 2 is probably the least repetitive MMO you can find, since you dont 'need' to grind. You can grind for appearance stuff, but by no means is it required. Also the ways to level is far more varied than any other MMO I have seen where it is 'repeat kill quests' or 'grind mobs in x area repeatedly'.
Eloquently stated.
Wow thanks.
nah,sorry mate there is no way on earth Gw2 even comes remotely close to overall quest and dungeon variety in The Secret World. No freakin' way on earth.
Well said. My sentiments exactly.
I found out for myself that GW2 is more MMO than RPG - it has RPG elements. Its the RPG aspect of the MMO that makes me want to log in everyday. A RPG has certain staples or principles that if removed it no longer functions as a RPG and becomes something different.
The funny thing is, the whole 'no constant spread of non-cosmetic rewards' thing is a reason stated for some people (Like me) as a reason to like the game.
I've also always said that some people won't like that, but some people will.
I still am enjoying the game.
Some people really need that kind of motivator to play a game though. For those people, GW2 is probably going to have less of a shelf life. (Though for MOST people, I'd say it's still probably worth the box price even if you end up not playing it for months on end).
So uh... hmm.
Guess I didn't really learn anything new here! Other than I'm right. That's kind of cool, being right and all. ... and since I am enjoying myself, and there are others who are, the people who said 'you need progression for an MMORPG' are wrong.
The people who also said it'd totally change how people play games were also wrong, because it's directed to a specific type of game player so far as long term MMORPG playing goes.
Only people in the middle, the people who were like 'Some people will like it, some won't.' were right in their predictions.
Go me. (Yes, this whole post is me patting myself on the back for being able to tell the future)
(edit: Also, I think a lot of people don't understand what makes an RPG an RPG. Power progression is nowhere in the name 'Role Playing Game'. It might be more accurate to say that it has become so closely entwined with computer RPGs that it is one of the defining function of COMPUTER RPGs. ... but many single player CRPGs don't even have progression that lasts as long as GW2 progression does. Does a single player RPG stop being an RPG after you get the best weapon and highest level? Does that mean it's safe to quit the game after that, and fighting the boss is merely something to do that isn't part of the RPG itself?
I dunno. Progression has become one of the most common things shared between computer RPGs (There are pen and paper RPGs with little to no progression), but just because so many shooters nowadays have a weapon swapping button doesn't mean that a button that swaps weapons makes something an FPS.)
what a load of crap. My opinion.
Do not forget that in most rpgs that new spell you got was exactly the same as the old one, only more powerful version of it.
you get new abilities up to about 50 or so. The only difference is that you dont only get them from levelling, you get them from skill challenges. The story is better than any mmo (havent played SWTOR) but lets face it what other mmo give you 80+ missions that you can do on your own time.
your going to have to start naming games if you want any credibility with me.
I think ANET made a very big mistake in design: they gave out the reward too early. RPGs traditionally have been about the evolution or journey of a character. Usually, this character starts small (an ordinary peasant or civilian) and the goal is to become a hero in the end. The story is layed out in a way to guide that character to becoming this. Mechanics-wise, levels are used to create and measure one's progression through that journey. For a level to be meaningful, there has to be some new reward for gaining it (a new ability, enhanced stats, etc). So the levels stop from feeling monotonous, the designer usually ups the scales with each level gain (e.g. you got this cool ability at level 1, well at level 10 you get this even cooler one!) What ANET basically did was remove this. In doing so, your character basically feels like it plateaus at level 5. All thats really left is the story (not its strongest suit) and the world to explore.
There's nothing wrong with that, but the game tries really hard to be an RPG...or at least tries to think it is one.
I'm starting to think ANET was trying to create a new genre, or simply overlooked the basic fundamentals about the one they were working in. In their effort to be different, they lost sight of those core components that, once removed, leaves the game as a mere reminder of something that we used to play.
It's been very hard to come to this conclusion, but I believe I have come to it truthfully.
Guild Wars 2 makes the mistake of trying too hard to be different than WoW that it has forgotten how to be an RPG. Just throwing people together does not an MMORPG make.
Eloquently stated.
Wow thanks.
I think what you're referring to is the carrot and treadmill as main or maybe even sole motivators for gamers in an RPG or MMORPG. I think that's wrong in 2 ways. The first is the obvious one, namely that you're not done with character progression after L5: a lot of skills and traits you need to have like 50-70 levels under your belt to have obtained them all - although I agree that they should've made skillhunting go up to L80 and far beyond. The second is that RPG was all or mainly about stats and skills, and little beyond that. The WoW or Bartle's achiever-type line of gaming. Now, I don't know how other people played their RPG's, but I know that for me it was more than just gaining better and flashier skills and gear. From Zelda, to Final Fantasy 7 to Baldur's Gate 1 & 2 to Vampire the Masquerade, I played them for the story progression, the exploration in several ways (skill gaining is exploration/progression in just 1 way of the possible ones) and the gameplay.
Everyone's probably different, also what they found fun in their RPG's. But from what I see, GW2 did a great job in how it implemented those aspects, exploration of zones as well as quests is better imo than the static way in which you find it in other MMO's - although I agree that purely story quest wise, TSW did a better job than GW2. I agree though that the achiever-type of player in Bartle's model will have less of a carrot to chase after than in MMO's like WoW.Ive been playing RPGs since pen and paper D&D. Its not power progression, but role playing progression. The whole draw to the game was that you had a character you created (configured stats) and were able to experience its growth from a starting character to however you lead it. You controlled the actions. Dealt with the consequences.
When this was implemented in video games (Dragon Quest 1986 being one of the first console RPGs) they translated this growth into level progression. Growing from a lowly starting character into a hero that saved the world (based on your decision to raise your stats). These games loosely followed the D&D rule set. Strict classes. Alignment. etc.
Final Fantasy II (Japan) was the first console game I remember introducing the skill-based model which was more flexible. Though a poor implementation it was interesting to have a character use any weapon or spell which only got better through use.
What has changed is how RPGs have been impelemted. No longer are RPGs the staple stories we knew of the past (hero amnesiac who grows slowly over time). Today a First Person Shooter can be considered an RPG because it allows you to customize a character. This isn't a true RPG in my book but rather a FPS that has elements of an RPG.
The length of an RPG (or even a game considered to have RPG elements) is difficult to define depending on how many secondary systems are included. Skyrim is a perfect example. It could easily last for however long you would like to play. Obviously in the long run it cannot compete with an MMO which are typically updated over time. But Skyrim comes close with its DLC updates. It also depends on the player. A RPG is over when you feel you have accomplished whatever goal you have set for yourself. Which could be the difference between a completionist and someone who wants to reach max level. Like GW2, Skyrim truly 'begins' after you complete the main storyline which is purposely quick.
Lets not confuse getting a better weapon with character progression. The former is an aspect for the latter. A weapon doesn't grow the character does.
Another thing I noticed is that most 'standard' RPGs (for lack of a better term) are played at a slow pace which presents a certain style. GW2 speeds that 'style' up to be on par with action-based titles. While playing GW2 slowly is an option of the player, I would say the gameplay style lends itself more to action which is some (perhaps small ways) takes away from the RPG feeling.
RPGs at their core are about conflict (internal or external), and how you as a character fit within in it and deal with it. GW2 focuses more on the action (the execution of the conflict) than it does the consequence of the character performing it.
As said before GW2 is a quality game that some will like, and others will not depending on where you sit on this argument. The question I am seeing is if ANet meant to overlook the RPG portion of the MMO? Future expansions will tell. Im willing to hang out to see.
I can see where you are coming from, and propably many agree with you, it's the most traditional RPG way which I have enjoyed many times too, but there's also a lot of people who have been saying for ages that they would love to start playing the game at lvl1 instead of waiting for max level to start playing. GW2 should be pretty good choise for them. Saying that end-game starts at lvl1 would be a bit strange statement if you had to play to max level just to unlock your gameplay tools.
Then we can ask what RPG is to every individual? To me there's plenty of different kinds, but one of the best RPG's I've ever played is the Mass Effect series even with the recent fails, and none of the games in the trilogy really had anykind of in-depth character development.
Having said that, I wouldnt mind more meaningful character unlocks towards the end of the leveling, perhaps more elite abilities to choose from every 5 levels or so, but it certainly is not a requirement for me.
I like being able to swap between the engineer kits early on, I'm not sure if I would like the system better if I would unlock grenade kit at lvl50, elixir gun at lvl60 while enjoying flame thrower at closer to max level and not being able to use supply drop before max level at all.
You bring up some interesting points. Character progression is personal so there is never really any one/right way to do it. The main culprit is that the progression carries no weight thus no achievement. Level 80 is the same as level 1 (give or take). That will be tough for certain gamers to accept.
RPGs are more than stats and skills. You need a reason to reach to progress those stats and skills. Its about story. Its about conflict. Its about consequence of your (build) decisions and can you survive. There is much more non-concrete aspects to RPGs than just stats and skills.
Funny you should bring up WOW because I dont really consider it an RPG. I take it you never played EverQuest? That was a great (standard) example of an MMORPG. Notice how its different from WOW. (Or WOW from today as I never played vanilla WOW only post-Cata). Zelda is not an RPG but an action RPG (an action based puzzle game that had RPG elements). Notice how if you compare Zelda to say Final Fantasy III or Dragon Quest V the gameplay style is completely different. The latter are true RPGs. I have personal love/hate feelings for Final Fantasy VII. On one side it removed the exploratory aspect and focused more on telling a specific story. On the other side it exposed millions of gamers to RPGs I'd been playing for nearly a decade prior. That cant be all bad ;-) Baldurs gate was a dungeon crawler with RPG elements. But my point is those titles dont represent true/standard/classic RPGs to me.
Exploration is PHENOMENAL in GW2. I simply cant get enough of the vistas. But there are other aspects of RPGs that are missing (perhaps on purpose) that I believe many other gamers agree with. Again, this isn't about if GW2 is good or not. Its great. This is about a (common) reason why some may not find it as exciting and engaging as others.
As I have learned from experience, all MMOs change over time. If its for better or worse will remain to be seen.
Ill be watching...
Exactly. I will say GW2 is a *particular* type of MMO(RPG) for a specific gaming audience. Thus some people will simply not enjoy GW2 over the long run. Not that we matter to the success of the game anyway ;-)
I'm still waiting for *my* 'GW2' game... that caters to the things I like in an RPG.
Im still curious what GW2 will evolve into over the years. Who knows, they may put that 'stuff' back in one day :-)
Really, really well said.
Even though my Warrior is lvl 79 I'm behind on my Personal Story. I only recently got inducted into The Vigil. I changed my Armor to match Vigil colors. I received no new gear upgrades whatsoever.
I felt a nice sense of accomplishment and character progression. GW2 works for me.
If you want to call it that, fine. But when I bring this up, I am thinking about RPGs specifically. CRPGS are based on their pnp counterparts. Even if you go back to one of the original CRPGs, The Bard's Tale, characters advanced through levels and this was the climb, the progression your character travelled through.
With CRPGs, the possibility for roleplay is diminished compared to the tabletop. That being understood, CRPGs have tried to alleviate that fundamental missing ingredient by becoming more complex in their design. No longer were they limited by single dice rolls, but they could use multiple complex computer mathematical equations and calculations behind the scenes to complicate the encounter, thus trying to create the illusion of roleplay.
The "carrot on the stick" as often used to describe the WoW or themepark treadmill is not what I am talking about. I am not talking about the endless cycle of repeating raid instances for that chance to get that ever elusive gear. No, I am going back to character progression...the process of your character's journey.
Any RPG that can call itself an RPG has this feature.
At L5 in GW2, for all intensive purposes, you have unlocked most of your character's core features. Call it anything you want but those skill points and their uses for the utility skills or what have you are insignificant compared to those initial palpable weapon skills.
Personally, I would have preferred if they took out levels 8-80 and just stretched out 1-7. Make each of the weapon skills dependent on gaining those levels as well. I'm not asking to recycle old abilities with new stats...no, just focus on the 1-7 journey and cut out the rest. That to me, would have been an infinitely better game.
I'm tired fo false progression in MMOs. You seem to like it. But one thing is GW2 does have quest progression in the form of DEs. If you start the chain yourself (requires talking to a NPC sometimes) you can be doing DEs back to back to back that tell an intresting story and can take more than an hour to complete.
Your personal story is also character progression. Maybe you should try to do your level 50 PS, it shouldn't be still bugged
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
Thank you :-)
...and EverQuest works for me.
What I love about MMORPGs today is (abundance of) choice.
Sure, why not start with the grandaddy of them all: ADnD.
The difference is that in other MMO's, there seems to be a reason to "kill x mobs." It may not be the most realistic reason, but it's still some kind of story slowly builds on itself. GW2 has plenty of stuff to do, sure, but I always feel like I'm doing it for the sake of doing it. It's basically just opening the map up, and looking for unfilled hearts. Run to them and do whatever task pops up (usually "kill x mobs" or "interact with x objects") and then get some experience. I don't even have to talk to anyone; I just get the credit and move on.
So although there is a lot of different stuff to do in the game, all of it lacks any meaningful context, making it feel literally like a grind.
It's just my opinion though, I'm not trying to dog on the game. I feel the same way about most asian MMO's, and recognize it's just not my preference. There are pleanty of MMO's, however, that have enough of an actual story to keep me going.
You make me like charity
I agree, darkhalf357x - I've also been playing since the good old pen&paper days, and I'm still really enjoying GW2. I don't have any of the decay of enthusiasm that Elikal talks about (not yet at least).
Actually I've been very surprised to like GW2, as I come from a raiding background in other games, but I find myself very involved in the lore and the world (and the exploration) much more than I have in other MMOs. It's very immersive, I find. Also, I'm just now starting to really love the difficulty of the dungeons, so that's helped a lot lately. Give me a little of that raid feeling.
Well said. I agree. But if we look back to ADnD, level progression was in there. True, it wasn't as quite as profound in MMOs because...well...you had that incredible ROLEPLAY which is pretty much non existent in the computer side of things.
Sure, you can try and roleplay, but unless you've been in a room of smelly guys after numerous hours really going off in directions you didn't think possible eight hours earlier, then you might not know what I mean.
So, roleplay took a back seat and character progession became first and foremost. I think for the most part people were fine with that. But this move AWAY from that to a more "explorer" type game doesn't feel quite right to me. It looks like an RPG, smells like an RPG, but it isnt? Huh? My mind kind of gets confused while playing it. But I think thats it.
And yes, interesting to see if they can implement it more in the game. Not sure how they would do that without fully reworking the classes.
you watch this video by any chance? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTF9T4oQ480&feature=g-all-u
you seem to be missing out on the main meat of GW2 content and probably why you don't see the context of quests.. hearts are only a guide and shouldn't be looked at as the meat of GW2 questing unless you want them to be that is.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg