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So they remove the "grind" for 2.0?

redman875redman875 illinois, ILPosts: 230Member

Does anyone else get the feeling that this is just going to be a battle arena game. 

Im a firm beliver that eventhough a lot of hardcore pvpers stated the grind as the reason for the current games lack of overwhelming populairity...every time theyve reduced grind population remained the same.  Even now with its retarded 20x XP.

My belief remains that the grind was never the issue, despite many who stayed wanted to macro to maxed out and play the game like an arena battleground game.

 

Does the new versions lack of progression make anyone else feel less excited?  Or have we reached the point where gamers just want to log on, select their character as fully progressed and just pvp...like a MOBA kind of...is progression dead in mmorpgs?

 

Im just so sick of mmorpgs where im at "endgame" in a month of casual play or less.  Darkfalls insane progression, despite gains were fractional, was the real motive that kept me comming back all these years.

I guess im oldschool, i consider grind as farming worthless mobs for fractional gains because there is nothing else to do and the only reward is my fractional XP....i dont consider doing stuff a lot grind, i know the definition changed on grind to include anything that requiers effort.

I really am not interested in a full loot MOBA type game, i am very interested in a good full loot sandbox MMORPG with a decent progression built in.  Just seems like every game out there feels the need to make things easier and quicker.  Really hope EoC doesnt take this approach...thats the only sandbox out there that may fit what im looking for and its a very long ways off...if it ever makes it that long...

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Comments

  • DAS1337DAS1337 Parma, OHPosts: 2,404Member

    That's because it's never really been about the grind.  It's the hacking and exploiting that caused a huge gap between veterans and new players.  It's a jack of all trades system that allowed it in the first place.  However, they couldn't completely fix it without a wipe.  Well, now their hands were forced into just that.

     

    There are a ton of aspects about the game that are going to be fixed, along with the GUI/UI and graphics upgrades.  I think they will see a significant boost in population compared to the original game.  I wish one of the fixes was streamlining the combat perspective, but that doesn't change my opinion.

  • HancakesHancakes flint, MIPosts: 1,045Member
    There's no place for a lenghty grind in a PvP centric game. 
  • redman875redman875 illinois, ILPosts: 230Member

    Yeah its kind of ironic that the same crowd that more or less chased away all the pve players at launch by locking down all the starter spawns the moved on to exploit and hack the game.

    This is the same crowd that wanted the grind removed, and im sure, would be perfectly fine with removing stats and skil levels all together.

    This game had a really fantastic pve progression element to it, despite it being hardcore in terms of time required.  The "gap" between new players and vets should never be a complaint in a mmorpg...its a fact of life with these games...or at least use to be.

    Also the "gap" was in terms of fractional advantages.  A lot of the players who did leave because of this gap, or bitched about it being the reason they couldnt compete, have found out recently that they still suck even after the 20x XP got them to where they thought they could stomp people skill wise.

    Its a rude awakening but the game ran off a very fractional gain progression.  So much more of this game was having good mastery of the gui and good FPS skills.  

     

    Yes though, i fully agree on your comments about people exploiting and hacking that really wrecked the game.  While i agree that many aspects that are current problems will be fixed...i find myself so very dissapointed that there wont be an epic progression in 2.0...it really was the only thing that kept me going all these years...no other game does this since no other game had the balls to include such a long progression.

    Also..whats the point of fixing all this stuff if your just going to be maxed out in a month...at least in my eyes.  Im not asking for the games origional 1.5 years heavy play to max, they increased XP i think 2 or 3 times and added medatation for offline skill gains...that was still fine...just the themepark timeframe to max level...i hate it.

  • redman875redman875 illinois, ILPosts: 230Member
    Originally posted by Hancakes
    There's no place for a lenghty grind in a PvP centric game. 

    This about sums up what wrecked the first DF...i just hope this mindset doesnt wreck the second one...

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,276Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by redman875

      The "gap" between new players and vets should never be a complaint in a mmorpg...its a fact of life with these games...or at least use to be.

     

    Sig worthy.

  • thinktank001thinktank001 oasisPosts: 2,027Member Uncommon
    I kind of understood their statements that the grind is still there if you want to master all the skills.   However, the " PvP viable " grind is gone, since there is now a limit to the number of skills a players has available at anytime.
  • ForumPvPForumPvP KingstownPosts: 871Member

    If Dungeon Master had 20x exp 20x faster character progression  ,would it be 20 times better game? or 100 times faster.

    I didnt know that DF is going to do something like that,hey mister our game is 20 times better now.

     

     

    Let's internet

  • HancakesHancakes flint, MIPosts: 1,045Member
    Originally posted by redman875

    Also..whats the point of fixing all this stuff if your just going to be maxed out in a month...at least in my eyes.  Im not asking for the games origional 1.5 years heavy play to max, they increased XP i think 2 or 3 times and added medatation for offline skill gains...that was still fine...just the themepark timeframe to max level...i hate it.

    But there's no skill in grinding, a macro or trained chimp can do it.  The people I've played with since UO are competitive PvP players and want to be on an even footing within a reasonable amount of time.  (UO/SB) 

    Games should be fun, not feel like a job.

    I'll never understand people like you

  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,118Member Uncommon
    I didn't like the game because I hated the UI and the action style combat.

    image
  • HancakesHancakes flint, MIPosts: 1,045Member
    Originally posted by redman875
    Originally posted by Hancakes
    There's no place for a lenghty grind in a PvP centric game. 

    This about sums up what wrecked the first DF...i just hope this mindset doesnt wreck the second one...

    And how exaclty did that wreck Darkfall?   You mean wrecked for you?

    Do you think new players want to be slaughtered for 1.5 years or whatever masochistic grind you prefer?

    Long grinds in PVE centric games are fine as the "gap" doesnt directly impact other players.

     

  • kaiser3282kaiser3282 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,690Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by redman875

    Its a rude awakening but the game ran off a very fractional gain progression.  So much more of this game was having good mastery of the gui and good FPS skills.  

    You say that, yet here you are creating a thread complaining that you dont have progression. If so much of it was mastery of the GUI and FPS skill then progression, or lack of it,  shouldnt matter.

    BTW they said less of a grind. They didnt say they are removing it.

    Also Hancakes is right, and youre just whining for the sake of whining if you think thats what ruined DF1. Grinding for hundreds of hours on end against PvE mobs (or macroing for days at a time) is not what a PvP game should be about. Its about fighting eachother, not avoiding fighting eachother until youve grinded enough skill points to feel youre ready to compete.

  • HotjazzHotjazz BalsfjordPosts: 742Member
    Originally posted by redman875

    This is the same crowd that wanted the grind removed, and im sure, would be perfectly fine with removing stats and skil levels all together.

    Ohh you mean the same crowd that play the full-loot mmo DayZ. Do you know  one million different players have played that full-loot mmo with no stat and skill level? How many of you grinders, macroers and exploiters are left in Darkfall these days?

    If I have to macro or swim against a wall for weeks ever again, then Darkfall UW can burn in hell.

    I know a game you can grind NPCs all day, and you can even get epic purple panda gear. Let those who want a full-loot pvp mmo have Darkfall, after all that`s all they got.

  • HancakesHancakes flint, MIPosts: 1,045Member
    Originally posted by Hotjazz
    Originally posted by redman875

    This is the same crowd that wanted the grind removed, and im sure, would be perfectly fine with removing stats and skil levels all together.

     

    If I have to macro or swim against a wall for weeks ever again, then Darkfall UW can burn in hell.

     

    image 

  • king0fmarsking0fmars eagle, WIPosts: 43Member
    How do you go from the grind is not the problem to having a grind in the solution? The logical conclusion is that the overwhelming grind was one of many problems contributing to the early death of darkfall. Character progression is important but the learning curve in darkfall is a sort of natural grind and throwing in a mind numbing amount of repetitive task on top of it all is not necessary.
  • KatlaOdindottirKatlaOdindottir essexPosts: 144Member
    Originally posted by king0fmars
    How do you go from the grind is not the problem to having a grind in the solution? The logical conclusion is that the overwhelming grind was one of many problems contributing to the early death of darkfall. Character progression is important but the learning curve in darkfall is a sort of natural grind and throwing in a mind numbing amount of repetitive task on top of it all is not necessary.

    As of right now in DF1 the grind is non exsistant, takes a week to max a char, i hope thye making it a little harder at least in UW but not to the extreme of DF1 launch.

    www.daneslaw.com

    @GamerKurisu

    Awaiting Darkfall Unholy Wars

  • RealbigdealRealbigdeal Vimont, QCPosts: 1,625Member
    Originally posted by mrcjevans
    Originally posted by king0fmars
    How do you go from the grind is not the problem to having a grind in the solution? The logical conclusion is that the overwhelming grind was one of many problems contributing to the early death of darkfall. Character progression is important but the learning curve in darkfall is a sort of natural grind and throwing in a mind numbing amount of repetitive task on top of it all is not necessary.

    As of right now in DF1 the grind is non exsistant, takes a week to max a char, i hope thye making it a little harder at least in UW but not to the extreme of DF1 launch.

    There is a difference between the good and the bad vets.

    The good vets are maximazed characters with the perfect player skills. They can be unstoppable and most of them got the potential to become the best of the best in the server. This means,the possibility to win a tournament. These vets do not need to be maxed in order to kill any maxed unknown players. Vets believe that practicing often is the true progression, not grinding for ever.

    The bad vets are vets who never spend time dueling. They only spend time grinding cuz they thought their lack of character progression is/was the reason they could not kill a player in a fair fight. These player leave once they become maxed and once they find out that all that work changed nothing cuz they still cannot win a fair fight against anyone. The bad vets believe that progressing without end will automatically turn them into winners. Yet, they still play just like 2 years ago, when they 1st log in the game.

     

    Now, the GRIND.

    The grind is there to keep players interested before they find out how bad the game is or anything of the above, find out that they are not getting better as they keep progressing. In the mind of the gimp, if he grinds enough, he might be able to still kill 50% who are still ranked below him. Problem with DF, Level means absulutely nothing if you are not average. A maxed player in DF1 if not good, can still get kill in 5-10 hits only and it has been proved so many times.

     

    In conclusion, without the grind, the newbs will quickly see the truth, what the game is about and their destiny starts there. They will be able to chose quickly to leave or to stay and face the real difficulty of the game, the end game.

    C:\Users\FF\Desktop\spin move.gif

  • king0fmarsking0fmars eagle, WIPosts: 43Member
    Originally posted by Realbigdeal

    There is a difference between the good and the bad vets.

    The good vets are maximazed characters with the perfect player skills. They can be unstoppable and most of them got the potential to become the best of the best in the server. This means,the possibility to win a tournament. These vets do not need to be maxed in order to kill any maxed unknown players. Vets believe that practicing often is the true progression, not grinding for ever.

    The bad vets are vets who never spend time dueling. They only spend time grinding cuz they thought their lack of character progression is/was the reason they could not kill a player in a fair fight. These player leave once they become maxed and once they find out that all that work changed nothing cuz they still cannot win a fair fight against anyone. The bad vets believe that progressing without end will automatically turn them into winners. Yet, they still play just like 2 years ago, when they 1st log in the game.

     

    Now, the GRIND.

    The grind is there to keep players interested before they find out how bad the game is or anything of the above, find out that they are not getting better as they keep progressing. In the mind of the gimp, if he grinds enough, he might be able to still kill 50% who are still ranked below him. Problem with DF, Level means absulutely nothing if you are not average. A maxed player in DF1 if not good, can still get kill in 5-10 hits only and it has been proved so many times.

     

    In conclusion, without the grind, the newbs will quickly see the truth, what the game is about and their destiny starts there. They will be able to chose quickly to leave or to stay and face the real difficulty of the game, the end game.

    The difference in darkfall is that player skill is not the end all factor in this game. In fact it only a small fraction of what pvp is about. Having strong social skills and a lot of friends with you all the time can be enough to win a lot in darkfall and that has also been proven many times.

     

  • HancakesHancakes flint, MIPosts: 1,045Member
    Originally posted by Realbigdeal
    Originally posted by mrcjevans
    Originally posted by king0fmars
    How do you go from the grind is not the problem to having a grind in the solution? The logical conclusion is that the overwhelming grind was one of many problems contributing to the early death of darkfall. Character progression is important but the learning curve in darkfall is a sort of natural grind and throwing in a mind numbing amount of repetitive task on top of it all is not necessary.

    As of right now in DF1 the grind is non exsistant, takes a week to max a char, i hope thye making it a little harder at least in UW but not to the extreme of DF1 launch.

    There is a difference between the good and the bad vets.

    The good vets are maximazed characters with the perfect player skills. 

    Most of the skilled players left DF within the first 3 months.   DF turned into the old "big fish in a little pond"  and Im sure most "good" vets are fearing a wipe and a return of real talent.

  • xpiherxpiher Indianapolis, INPosts: 3,311Member

    The grind was the main issue with DFO at launch. After 6months in, it was the lack of viabile build diversity. Things have been un balanced from the begining which is what lead people to maxing out everything in order to min-max damage. If each play style was viable, palyers would have easily gone into roles rather than being jack of all trades and master of all build that eventually took the game over. 

    Character Progression isn't necessary to make a good MMORPG, at least not with levels/tiers of power. Hopefully, AV can figure out a way to strike a proper balance with it. 

    image
    Games:
    Currently playing:Nothing
    Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
    Past games:
    Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
    Xpiher's GW2
    GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
    Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
    AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
    Warhammer - Xpiher

  • IAmMMOIAmMMO LondonPosts: 1,332Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DAS1337

    That's because it's never really been about the grind.  It's the hacking and exploiting that caused a huge gap between veterans and new players.  It's a jack of all trades system that allowed it in the first place.  However, they couldn't completely fix it without a wipe.  Well, now their hands were forced into just that.

     

    There are a ton of aspects about the game that are going to be fixed, along with the GUI/UI and graphics upgrades.  I think they will see a significant boost in population compared to the original game.  I wish one of the fixes was streamlining the combat perspective, but that doesn't change my opinion.

    "Players can switch between roles, skills, spells, and ability boosters on the fly." 

    Taken from the DF UW website. Being able to change on the fly is making people jack of all trades. Unless they made a mistake and still have the timer to put on armour as is in DF1.0, but then why say on the fly?

  • NatrisNatris BrnoPosts: 38Member

    IMO the grind to get all available skills will not significantly lowered, just the role system will allow some roles (like warrior and skirmisher) to be fast to max and in general every role will be faster to max than the "max it all" hybrid everyone had to be in DF1.

  • KrulosKrulos CopenhagenPosts: 68Member
    There will also be grind in specializing your role.  
  • king0fmarsking0fmars eagle, WIPosts: 43Member
    Originally posted by Hancakes

    Most of the skilled players left DF within the first 3 months.   DF turned into the old "big fish in a little pond"  and Im sure most "good" vets are fearing a wipe and a return of real talent.

    This is cute. The big fish in the little pond have been big fish for 4 years. The real darkfall vets, who have been playing the game are going to have a huge advantage over all the "old schoolers". Good luck to you at release but I'm sure most of your kind will have some excuse blaming the game after you get trashed by real darkfall vets.

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member

    If it makes you feel better OP you can numlock swim into a bridge for hours on end for your own pleasure.

     

    There will be grinds in Unholy Wars, there is zero doubt about that. They do though seem to be looking at reducing the amount of time it takes to get pvp viable by reducing the "no cap, max everything to compete" problem via the inclusion of spec roles.

    Which is a good thing.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • HancakesHancakes flint, MIPosts: 1,045Member
    Originally posted by king0fmars
    Originally posted by Hancakes

    Most of the skilled players left DF within the first 3 months.   DF turned into the old "big fish in a little pond"  and Im sure most "good" vets are fearing a wipe and a return of real talent.

    This is cute. The big fish in the little pond have been big fish for 4 years. The real darkfall vets, who have been playing the game are going to have a huge advantage over all the "old schoolers".

     So it now takes four years to master DF?  (talk about slow learners)image

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