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Come on already, we need a true mmo !!!

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  • rutaqrutaq somerville, MAPosts: 428Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    IMO hard has never included risk.  Hard is the chance of completing a task/the amount of effort it takes to complete the task, risk is what happens oif I fail the challenge.  It didn't change the nature of the challenge.  

    Now the risk may have changed the way I thought about the challenge, but it didn't actually change the challenge.

    I agree but the risk adds a special emotional element and also can be a gating factor.  Since repeated failures and carelessness in older games would de-level you, destroy your gear, debuff and severely weaken you for hours.  Players adept at failure were prevented from progressing without learning and becoming better.

     

    Risk prevents someone from winning by brute force lemming-ing their way through content by waiting for the RND gods to roll in their favor.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Calhoun619
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Calhoun619
    Originally posted by Quirhid
     

    Cool. I always make it clear what I post is of my own opinion. And the question I answered was How do YOU define "Hard" ? A group doing there job properly for the most part stays alive. The "hard" it seems you want it the hard that comes with pulling too many mobs and training most likely to zone.  Or trying to go deep into a dungeon alone. Dragons. Cazic Thule. Planes. Ever seen a monk/necro bite off more than they can chew or have a FD fail in a real bad spot?

    Pulling out of ruins in LoIO which if I remember right is a level 15+ zone could lead to the "hard" you seek.Im sure you havent because im assuming you werent gaming during EQ's earlier years. And with the average age of gamers I come across in MMO's nowadys you might have only been a few years out of diapers.

    Now you're just assuming things. But if you really must know, I rarely consider PvE to be hard. Not in the new MMOs or old - oh and I've played my share of the old ones, don't you worry. Playing with arcaic threat mechanics is not hard. And biting more than you can chew is just plain stupid.

    I am not impressed.

    So the tl:dr version of our conversation is no, youve never played EQ1 but you insist on telling me its not hard and you're too good at games anyways. We on the same page?

    I guess if impressing you was my goal I would be sad?

    Here let me help you: What you are using is called a "straw man argument" (wiki link included).

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,314Member Uncommon

    Your emotions should be subordinate to your reason.  Not the other way around.

    You can consciously choose to feel a certain way.  Yes some people require more training at this than others but virtually every human can do this. 

    This does not mean you turn into an emotionless zombie but it does mean that to let an event/person/circumstance dictate how you feel is IMO a reaction approave, a wrong approach,.

    But that could be a whole other topic :)

    I've never played any game anywhere where people would succeed just by continually attempting the same thing.  They succeeded by changing something, they learned something, they did something different, even if that was just to gain a few more levels or get a higher player to help them.  No one succeeds at anything JUST by multiple attempts.  They succeeded becausee they changed the variables.

     

    Risk prevents someone from winning by brute force lemming-ing their way through content by waiting for the RND gods to roll in their favor.

    IMO it doesn't do that at all.  The only thing that will let you succeed is changing the variables you can control.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by rutaq
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
     

    I agree but the risk adds a special emotional element and also can be a gating factor.  Since repeated failures and carelessness in older games would de-level you, destroy your gear, debuff and severely weaken you for hours.  Players adept at failure were prevented from progressing without learning and becoming better.

     

    Risk prevents someone from winning by brute force lemming-ing their way through content by waiting for the RND gods to roll in their favor.

    Yes but extreme punishment prevents me from learning through repetition and discovery. You know - the normal way.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • LeoghanLeoghan Herndon, VAPosts: 607Member

    No we don't need a "true" MMO, in fact we need fewer games developed to be the "one ring to rule them all" and more games developed to fit a niche and turn a tidy, but realistic profit. That breeds diversity and diversity breeds more options for players and that increase everyones chance of getting a game they enjoy.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member

    Even though I think the difficulty in EQ came mostly from being accepted by the community and not being an idiot when you encoutered issues, i.e. learn to help people, don't stress out, don't quit, be respectful.

    Regardless, the hardest raids are still the ones from EQ, this zone was left unbeaten for a whole expansion, this zone is what made EQ guilds fold and move to WoW, this is the zone the WoW developers failed on and went on to develop WoW, this is the expansion Fires of Heaven failed on and quit. GOD, or Gates of Discord.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSdI18KHNYU

    To say EQ wans't hard is to say no MMO is hard, because I can't remember of any game where so many top guilds gave up and folded.

    Claiming EQ wasn't hard is saying MMO aren't hard in general, not a single MMO expansion will ever be as hard as GoD.

    I remember entering Tacvi and the first trash mob wiped our whole raid.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    To the OP...

     

    The majorrity of MMO players is actually very happy with things like dungeon finders, instance quests crossrealm interaction and such

     

     

    So dont say We need, but refer to me and my friends, or even the very lonely I.

     

    When do people like the OP start to realise they are currently a very small minority.

    If a majority of players are happy with these features, why do they leave most MMO's so quickly.

    What are they looking for to keep them playing for longer than 2-3 months?

     

    what MMo you talking about that had these features all in at launch?

    image

  • rutaqrutaq somerville, MAPosts: 428Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Leoghan

    No we don't need a "true" MMO, in fact we need fewer games developed to be the "one ring to rule them all" and more games developed to fit a niche and turn a tidy, but realistic profit. That breeds diversity and diversity breeds more options for players and that increase everyones chance of getting a game they enjoy.

    I whole heartedly agree.

    Let the niche MMO grow and cater to their own crowd, instead of forcing us to mix and be disapointed with all the compromises and broken promises.

  • YizleYizle Atlanta, GAPosts: 517Member
    Originally posted by delete5230
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    To the OP...

     

    The majorrity of MMO players is actually very happy with things like dungeon finders, instance quests crossrealm interaction and such

     

     

    So dont say We need, but refer to me and my friends, or even the very lonely I.

     

    When do people like the OP start to realise they are currently a very small minority.

    Well we have true mmo's and we have what we have now. Non social games, lots of features, people next to you but your playing alone. You know, the non-mmo's.

    Maybe you fall into the other than catagory that I was talking about.

    This is more for the mmo player, You know the Multi player type player. 

    Yeah this is about correct. Most MMORPGs are not MMO at all. Eve when I jump on it is and i just got dragged back into EQ2 F2P to see if its worth my attn. Yes I was bored enough to go back to EQ2. The new "MMOs" are just that bad. GW2 is so so.

  • YizleYizle Atlanta, GAPosts: 517Member
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    Even though I think the difficulty in EQ came mostly from being accepted by the community and not being an idiot when you encoutered issues, i.e. learn to help people, don't stress out, don't quit, be respectful.

    Regardless, the hardest raids are still the ones from EQ, this zone was left unbeaten for a whole expansion, this zone is what made EQ guilds fold and move to WoW, this is the zone the WoW developers failed on and went on to develop WoW, this is the expansion Fires of Heaven failed on and quit. GOD, or Gates of Discord.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSdI18KHNYU

    To say EQ wans't hard is to say no MMO is hard, because I can't remember of any game where so many top guilds gave up and folded.

    Claiming EQ wasn't hard is saying MMO aren't hard in general, not a single MMO expansion will ever be as hard as GoD.

    I remember entering Tacvi and the first trash mob wiped our whole raid.

    EQ raid zone idea of hard was just add hp and dmg to mob by factors of x100. Was just a numbers of game. IE this zone needed 50 players at it so this new one will need 200. That gets old too.

     

    Btw is there still going to be an EQ:Next or was that shelved? Anyone know

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,272Member Uncommon
    Plenty of mmos out there we need a well rounded mmorpg.
  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member
    Originally posted by Yizle

    Btw is there still going to be an EQ:Next or was that shelved? Anyone know

    yes, probably announcement at next fan faire I would dare to guess

  • f0dell54f0dell54 Des Moines, IAPosts: 329Member
    Originally posted by Kshahdoo

     


    Originally posted by Suraknar

    Originally posted by Fondel Darkfall Unholy Wars anyone?
    It is First person...

     

    I did not like it for an MMO experience...

    Not sure what they will change in DF 2, but...all I saw is features and features, and trying to appeal the illusion of being "elite"...which caters to younger players but not the ons that want to experience the old school gameplay, and want to build communities in a virtual world side to side with the action and dangers this world contains.

    DF focusses on destroying communities not building them, it is first person and only the ones with the twitch skillz will prevail...brains, immagination, creativity, and most importantly sociability are secondary if not less, which means it does not appeal to old school players.

    ****

    Anyways, I agree with OP....the sentiment is mutual.

     

     

     


     

    Heh, another man who knows nothing of DF but pretends he knows everything...

    Caters to younger? Lol. There is almost no people in DF younger 20. Most are around 30. I myself am 45... Younger players don't play sandbox games because they take a lot of social skills - thing youngsters are bad in.

    And as to destroying community - lol ten times more. You can't play sandbox games without community. DF one is one of the best on MMO market.

    45 years old yet you sound like a teenager. I started playing UO when it first came out and I was 13 but as you know younger players don't play sandboxes. If all of the DF players are of your caliber I'll be steering clear of yet another title.

    Thanks for the heads up.

  • LeoghanLeoghan Herndon, VAPosts: 607Member
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Yizle

    Btw is there still going to be an EQ:Next or was that shelved? Anyone know

    yes, probably announcement at next fan faire I would dare to guess

    I'm curious to see what they have up their sleeves despite my SOE misgivings. EQ was my first forray into MMO's so it'll always have a soft spot in my heart. 

  • PresbytierPresbytier Phoenix, AZPosts: 424Member
    Originally posted by Leoghan

    No we don't need a "true" MMO, in fact we need fewer games developed to be the "one ring to rule them all" and more games developed to fit a niche and turn a tidy, but realistic profit. That breeds diversity and diversity breeds more options for players and that increase everyones chance of getting a game they enjoy.

    This is exactly it. Developers need to stop making the wildly shot in the dark one time only success of WoW as the standard they all shoot for. Make a game that someone wants to play and do it in a way that you can re-coup costs without sacraficing artistic integrity.

    "Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood
    "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson

  • PalebanePalebane Tucson, AZPosts: 3,225Member

    I agree with the OP. A couple things that have helped me get along in these times:  First, realize that people change. The kinds of people that play MMORPGs has also changed since they began. And last, there is always something to be said for the underdog.

     

    Some have already recommended Vanguard. Though I have not played the game, it seems to be as close as you are going to get to a traditional fantasy MMORPG. I would also recommend Second Life as an alternative if you are looking for something more social.

     

    For me, most of the difficulty has come in the social form. Not that its hard to be social, but its hard to be good at it, to be able to use it as a tool. Though I've heard Eve Online has served the political/economic market quite well in the past, social interaction is arguably the one thing that has been "dumbed down" the most in modern online games. It is avoided because it is challenging, not only in video games, but in Amercian society in general, in my opinion.

     

    Anyone that argues they want hard games with no consequence for failure would likely simply quit playing a game if it was too hard for them. That is the difference between someone who plays games for fun and those who play as a hobby.

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • KhurgKhurg Philadelphia, PAPosts: 47Member

    Yeah and no one will play it...even old school mmo players like myself feel that old school is best left in the past....

     

  • rutaqrutaq somerville, MAPosts: 428Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Khurg

    Yeah and no one will play it...even old school mmo players like myself feel that old school is best left in the past....

     

     

     

    I'd play it... old school players like myself wish for a return to the golden age of True MMOs and hope the new solo easy mode Adventurer Daycare games become a distant memory...

  • xDracxDrac HamburgPosts: 183Member
    Originally posted by rutaq
    Originally posted by Khurg

    Yeah and no one will play it...even old school mmo players like myself feel that old school is best left in the past....

     

     

     

    I'd play it... old school players like myself wish for a return to the golden age of True MMOs and hope the new solo easy mode Adventurer Daycare games become a distant memory...

    Completely agree.

    I find it really sad to see that MMO's nowadays only last for about 1-4 months til they get old and boring.

    Actually something I miss is the good old grind that took you time to accomplish something. If things are hard to accomplish and need a lot of effort to be done, the reward and sense of accomplishment will be even sweeter. 

    Take Lineage II for example. It took you ridiculously long to hit max level. A lot, looot of grind was included but this and other elements of the game kept you playing for a very long time. I spent over six years playing this game and it will always remain dear to my heart.

    Another thing I miss is stuff like "Heroes" in Lineage II or "Race Leaders" and "Race/Chip Wars" in RF Online.

    Why do developers not pick up great and awesome concepts like that? Nowadays MMO content is all the same and it's truly boring as sh!t.

    Lineage 3 - www.lineage3-online.com
    Web & Graphic Design - www.xdrac.com

  • delete5230delete5230 Posts: 2,947Member Uncommon

    Again.  Who asked for easy ?....5 year olds ?

    Blizzard made WoW for 5 year olds, and now we all have to play ALL mmo's at a 5 year old level.....Thanks Blizzard for starting the downfall of your own game and all other mmos for the past three years !!!!!

  • GraeyGraey Jacksonville, FLPosts: 218Member
    Originally posted by Spiider

    I bet others have said it already but I'll say it again:

    Hard mmo = niche market = limited player base = limited profits (if any at all)

    Easy (dumbified) mmo = everyone can play (hi WOW)  = large player base (houswifes, grandmaas, just aboute anyone else) = huge profits

     

    Get it?

    Hard games (niche market) = Salem, Xsyon, EVE...

    Easy games (wide market) = WOW, GW2, SWTOR

    I know some will sream in pain now about me saying that GW2 and WOW are easy games but the truth does hurt when you live in denial.

    This is why era of hard games is a goner until some indie studio makes one which will be swallowed by large studios like EA. EA is to gaming world what Don King is to boxing or Jay Z to music industry. A good businessman and a destroyer of anything nice in it. Boxing is crap, music is crap and so is mmo gaming.

    Curious. What do you consider hard? Basically everyone on this particular topic has a slightly different definition. Perhaps we should all come to a consensus on what constitues hard. So that then we might branch out and decide what is good and not good for the genre.

     

    I've been keeping my eye on Salem...from your pov what do you consider hard about it?

     

    For everyone else, in the context of the post are we considering hard going back to the old ways when you didn't have the capabilities to do the things in MMO's that you can now? Or are there certain things that you want in an MMO. Taking an example of the OP post...forced grouping.

     

    Forced Grouping is not really hard its just what's necessary in certain games to advance. There is a problem to forced grouping however. People with different play styles will not progress as much as everyone else. I'll take FF11 as an example. I was a monk in that game...just could not get into any other class. only got to what level 55 because they have of course certain roles that people want. So now with most of the content blocked to me I"m screwed. Someone might say well roll a different job...I'd ask why when monk is the class I want to play.

     

    I can see your point OP. However no game is hard you just want a game to be a certain way and that is cool. I do really hate when people say they want a game to be a certain way then turn around and say in comparison to other "care bear" games. It's just so mean and it doesn't lead to a credible discussion (not saying you said it just something I hate). I can basically play any game out there and its not hard at all. I'm neither casual nor hard core. I just play until I get what I want. If its D3 and I want a piece of armor, if its amassed wealth in Eve..though I've never played. If I want it I can do it...all it is is "Time".

    Time is the only thing that can be loosely equated to being hard and of course there is no such thing as hard in MMOs. Deaths and corpse runs...time, xp gring...time. Raids and Dungeon runs...you practice the mechanics...time. You are just learning a pattern and repeating the pattern semi-flawlessly which of course takes practice which guess what...is time.

     

    So there really in my opinion is no hard content just time based content used to lock you out in order to gain more time in order to gain more money.

    So when I read your post what I see is. You want certain things taken out which will kind of force people to take the time out to socialize more. No dungeon que means someone has to chat for dungeons...takes time and thusly to speed it up you form a like minded guild.

    Mobs that require 3-6 people to kill...mob has a lot of xp, you need a proper tank and healer, dps as well. You form a like minded guild in order to progress...is time and socializing.

     

    Nothing wrong with it just don't call it hard. Oh yeah I do agree in that respect. It would be nice to have a really neat guild in GW2 for example. Doesn't seem like there is a real need for them however I'm curious where Anet will take the game in the future. Of course I am still having fun and I will continue to do so because for me GW2 is about exploration and I hope they capitalize on that.

     

     

  • GraeyGraey Jacksonville, FLPosts: 218Member
    Originally posted by rutaq
    Originally posted by Khurg

    Yeah and no one will play it...even old school mmo players like myself feel that old school is best left in the past....

     

     

     

    I'd play it... old school players like myself wish for a return to the golden age of True MMOs and hope the new solo easy mode Adventurer Daycare games become a distant memory...

    What is easy mode adventure daycare games in comparison to past MMO's? As one poster stated they are just advanced forms of what most people claimed they wanted in the past...and MMO's are not hard. Let's get past this concept. MMO's are time based. All things in MMO's are designed to waste time and only time.

    The grinding for xp while there imo should be a significant grind for xp was only there to make it last to get money, lock you out so it takes a bit more time to level.

    It would be nice to have a level grind and a sub grind. so for instance if you are leveling from 1-2...at 1.5 perhaps a skill would unlock or something. AA's are kind of an example of this but thats after level cap. I would say make leveling long but find something to put in the half way mark to keep people interested.

  • rutaqrutaq somerville, MAPosts: 428Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Graey
    Originally posted by rutaq
    Originally posted by Khurg

    Yeah and no one will play it...even old school mmo players like myself feel that old school is best left in the past....

     

     

     

    I'd play it... old school players like myself wish for a return to the golden age of True MMOs and hope the new solo easy mode Adventurer Daycare games become a distant memory...

    What is easy mode adventure daycare games in comparison to past MMO's? As one poster stated they are just advanced forms of what most people claimed they wanted in the past...and MMO's are not hard. Let's get past this concept. MMO's are time based. All things in MMO's are designed to waste time and only time.

     

     

          Your observation about "Time" being the only thing MMO challenge is based on is a bit simplistic but I see what you are saying.   To be successful in an old school forced grouping MMO, the "Time" requirement forced you develop your Patience, Thinking skills, Social skills and required a level of dedication to see things through.

     

    The same  Hard = Time observation can be applied to anything really.   Lets take a Real Life accomplishment that is generally considered "hard"....

     

    1)  Getting your PHD, learning skills, logic skills, dedication.   Done....

    2)  Running a Marathon,  Physical exertion until your body changes to accommodate the level of activity, dedication.  Done...

    3)  Being a Mom for a big family, organization skills, logic skills, lots and lots and lots of dedication.   Done...

     

    At the end of the day many old school fans want an MMO that is HARD,  something that requires patience, dedication, logical thinking, coordination and social skills.   The current MMOs that I tease as Adeventure's Daycare are designed to require very little of anything,  little patience, little dedication, little logical thinking, little organization and Most importantly little dedication.

     

  • SpiiderSpiider BinzPosts: 474Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rutaq

     

    At the end of the day many old school fans want an MMO that is HARD,  something that requires patience, dedication, logical thinking, coordination and social skills.   The current MMOs that I tease as Adeventure's Daycare are designed to require very little of anything,  little patience, little dedication, little logical thinking, little organization and Most importantly little dedication.

     

    This. If you don't get it you are not really a hard core gamer but a casual one.

    No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.

  • rutaqrutaq somerville, MAPosts: 428Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Spiider
    Originally posted by rutaq

     

    At the end of the day many old school fans want an MMO that is HARD,  something that requires patience, dedication, logical thinking, coordination and social skills.   The current MMOs that I tease as Adeventure's Daycare are designed to require very little of anything,  little patience, little dedication, little logical thinking, little organization and Most importantly little dedication.

     

    This. If you don't get it you are not really a hard core gamer but a casual one.

     Just to put my spin on the "hard core gamer"..   

     

    It isn't some elitist badge of honor, it is simply someone that requires "more" to have fun.   The cool part about the "more", is that is builds a foundation for complexity, variety, challenge which fosters interdependance which can feed into building a Community.

     

                                                Community

                                           Interdependance

                               Complexity, Variety, Challenge

                       more time,   more patience,   more thinking

                  more social,   more organziation, more dedication  

     

     

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