Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

Trent Oster Thinks Fans Negativity and EA Drove Muzyka and Zeschuk from Bioware

123468

Comments

  • smh_alotsmh_alot Area 51Posts: 976Member
    Originally posted by SuperDonk

    ..And the more and more I communicate, the more it becomes evidant that people still blame BioWare for everything. (BioWare was sold in 2007 and ceased to exist, only by name)

     And now you're confusing me. Did EA fire every single dev who worked for Bioware before the purchase? Did the doctors have zero say in the developement of SWTOR? Please enlighten me.

     

    Well, I'm guessing that SuperDonk likened it to how when China took over Tibet, or how when the European nations took over North and South America in their expansions: the local population was still there, but it wasn't really their country and culture anymore, not really.

    Kinda like how with former big and legendary companies that EA took over, a lot of the devs stayed too after the take over, yet still a significant decline could be noticed starting from the same time as when EA took over.
  • SuperDonkSuperDonk Vancouver, WAPosts: 781Member Common
    Originally posted by smh_alot
    Originally posted by SuperDonk

    ..And the more and more I communicate, the more it becomes evidant that people still blame BioWare for everything. (BioWare was sold in 2007 and ceased to exist, only by name)

     And now you're confusing me. Did EA fire every single dev who worked for Bioware before the purchase? Did the doctors have zero say in the developement of SWTOR? Please enlighten me.

     

    Well, I'm guessing that SuperDonk likened it to how when China took over Tibet, or how when the European nations took over North and South America in their expansions: the local population was still there, but it wasn't really their country and culture anymore, not really.

     

    Kinda like how with former big and legendary companies that EA took over, a lot of the devs stayed too after the take over, yet still a significant decline could be noticed starting from the same time as when EA took over.

     Bad analogies are bad, smh indeed.

  • KarteliKarteli Providence, PAPosts: 2,646Member
    Originally posted by SuperDonk

    ..And the more and more I communicate, the more it becomes evidant that people still blame BioWare for everything. (BioWare was sold in 2007 and ceased to exist, only by name)

     And now you're confusing me. Did EA fire every single dev who worked for Bioware before the purchase? Did the doctors have zero say in the developement of SWTOR? Please enlighten me.

    I'm getting sleepy SuperD .. but to your question, I doubt every single person in a decision making position was laid off or fired.  But many of them did quit, and some were fired.  The high position spots are now all vacant, waiting to be filled by EA personell.  Gordon Walton, pioneer of the Hero Alpha Engine adoption is big on the list, he quit in 2011 and was the BioWare office General Manager.  Most people know about Stephen Reid (when he left, bye bye customer relations!) There were many others .. but there are still some left .. Olsen, Dickinson for instance. 

    Thats not saying much really, for those who remember the SWG NGE. :/

     

    Well and if you are talking about programmers, nobody really has names, but I don't recall seeing many bugs in BioWare games prior to 2007.  Same with Origin games too, just as an off example, prior to Origins acquisition to EA in 1992.  Origin used to Create Worlds .. Now  .. /cry EA creates craps and uses Origin as a trademark :(

    Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
    Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  • mxbxmxbx Honolu, HIPosts: 42Member

    The mistakes that were made are almost surely mistakes that came "from the top," because it's really the core concept of the game that's the problem; e.g., putting most of the money into voice acting and story elements while phoning in the actual gameplay.  

    On the other hand, Bioware's decision to emphasize story over gameplay was rational, because Bioware never has been very good at gameplay.  The problem is, mmos are all about gameplay

    Lucasarts just gave the IP to the wrong studio. 

  • SuperDonkSuperDonk Vancouver, WAPosts: 781Member Common
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by SuperDonk

    ..And the more and more I communicate, the more it becomes evidant that people still blame BioWare for everything. (BioWare was sold in 2007 and ceased to exist, only by name)

     And now you're confusing me. Did EA fire every single dev who worked for Bioware before the purchase? Did the doctors have zero say in the developement of SWTOR? Please enlighten me.

    I'm getting sleepy SuperD .. but to your question, I doubt every single person in a decision making position was laid off or fired.  But many of them did quit, and some were fired.  Gordon Walton, pioneer of the Hero Alpha Engine adoption is big on the list, he quit in 2011 and was the BioWare office General Manager.  Most people know about Stephen Reid (when he left, bye bye customer relations!) There were many others .. but there are still some left .. Olsen, Dickinson for instance. 

    Thats not saying much really, for those who remember the SWG NGE. :/

     

    Well and if you are talking about programmers, nobody really has names, but I don't recall seeing many bugs in BioWare games prior to 2007.  Same with Origin games too, just as an off example, prior to Origins acquisition to EA in 1992.  Origin used to Create Worlds .. Now  .. /cry EA creates craps and uses Origin as a trademark :(

     Well good night then, I think I'm going to do the same. My point was that Bioware and the people who ran it both prior to the purchase and after still had a lot of say in the developement of SWTOR. EA turns everything to shit that they touch, but the good doctors are not blameless in this mess and neither are some of the other decision makers at what was formerly known as Bioware, may it rest in peace.

  • smh_alotsmh_alot Area 51Posts: 976Member
    Originally posted by SuperDonk

    Originally posted by smh_alot
    Originally posted by SuperDonk
    ..And the more and more I communicate, the more it becomes evidant that people still blame BioWare for everything. (BioWare was sold in 2007 and ceased to exist, only by name)

     And now you're confusing me. Did EA fire every single dev who worked for Bioware before the purchase? Did the doctors have zero say in the developement of SWTOR? Please enlighten me.

     

    Well, I'm guessing that SuperDonk likened it to how when China took over Tibet, or how when the European nations took over North and South America in their expansions: the local population was still there, but it wasn't really their country and culture anymore, not really.

     

    Kinda like how with former big and legendary companies that EA took over, a lot of the devs stayed too after the take over, yet still a significant decline could be noticed starting from the same time as when EA took over.

     Bad analogies are bad, smh indeed.

     

    Shrug. An analogy is just an analogy, don't make a big deal of it. Whether it's about countries, cultures or companies, when they get taken over you'll often see a culture shift and things run differently than when they were independent. Sometimes to a lesser, sometimes to a larger degree. Reading the last pages, in essence everyone's saying the same, only with different accents. Yes, EA has influence on how things run and are, and no, the BW leaders aren't completely without influence either. Now how much influence and power everyone concerned really had, that's up for debate. Truth usually lies somewhere in the middle.
  • smh_alotsmh_alot Area 51Posts: 976Member
    Originally posted by mxbx

    On the other hand, Bioware's decision to emphasize story over gameplay was rational, because Bioware never has been very good at gameplay.  The problem is, mmos are all about gameplay. Lucasarts just gave the IP to the wrong studio. 

     

    This is complete and utter nonsense. I've played BG to KOTOR to DA to ME, I had little problem with the gameplay in those games. In fact, they were games that managed to combine good story with fun gameplay. But hey, whatever, to each their own, I guess.
  • SuperDonkSuperDonk Vancouver, WAPosts: 781Member Common
    Originally posted by smh_alot
    Originally posted by SuperDonk
    Originally posted by smh_alot
    Originally posted by SuperDonk

    ..And the more and more I communicate, the more it becomes evidant that people still blame BioWare for everything. (BioWare was sold in 2007 and ceased to exist, only by name)

     And now you're confusing me. Did EA fire every single dev who worked for Bioware before the purchase? Did the doctors have zero say in the developement of SWTOR? Please enlighten me.

     

    Well, I'm guessing that SuperDonk likened it to how when China took over Tibet, or how when the European nations took over North and South America in their expansions: the local population was still there, but it wasn't really their country and culture anymore, not really.

     

    Kinda like how with former big and legendary companies that EA took over, a lot of the devs stayed too after the take over, yet still a significant decline could be noticed starting from the same time as when EA took over.

     Bad analogies are bad, smh indeed.

     

    Shrug. An analogy is just an analogy, don't make a big deal of it. Whether it's about countries, cultures or companies, when they get taken over you'll often see a culture shift and things run differently than when they were independent. Sometimes to a lesser, sometimes to a larger degree. Reading the last pages, in essence everyone's saying the same, only with different accents. Yes, EA has influence on how things run and are, and no, the BW leaders aren't completely without influence either. Now how much influence and power everyone concerned really had, that's up for debate. Truth usually lies somewhere in the middle.

     I can agree with this post, I just thought you were trying to take my arguement in a direction that was unnecessary. Most things are not black and white, they are various shades of grey. The Doctors might be upset about the backlash SWTOR and other Bioware games received over the last couple of years, but they are not victims in all of this.

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,926Member Uncommon
    Sure you can put some blame on them, but I bet much of the problems come from EA. Typically if a game has issues, its the publisher at fault not the developer. Developers who make their game wanting it to be good will typically do what they can to make it the best as possible and willing to take risks, publishers just want the money and in the end, they don't care what they game is so long as it makes them money, and if it means making it something that cashes in initially and is forgotten the next day, they really couldn't care.
  • nightsoftnightsoft Wrentham, MAPosts: 15Member

    I can't say why they left. I can say, however, they were warned....clearly warned during beta. Many MANY times.

     

    For one reason or another they ignored those warnings at thier own peril. If they left the company because they released a game that didn't stand up to the addictive quality their prior products had then they made the right choice.

    As I Bioware game and a AAA MMO it was, in my opinion, a complete and utter failure. It just doesn't have any meat past the VO and sound.

    It's AoC/STO/Warhammer good. It's not WoW/EVE/GW2 good. It needed to be the latter for it to have a chance to hold subs.

    At any rate I think the industry is better off. Thier glory days are obviously behind them.

  • NBlitzNBlitz ZwollePosts: 1,904Member

    "Far and away I expect their decision to leave was mostly based around the failure of  The Old Republic. People underestimate just how much was riding on SWTOR being a smash success for both EA and Bioware. It was likely the most expensive game ever produced and marketed, and was supposed to propel EA to dethrone Activision/Blizzard’s World of Warcraft, or at least pose it serious competition. It has not, and likely will not, if current figures are any indication."

     

    "Some fans may still enjoy it, but their numbers are dwindling and they’re not nearly enough to make the game the hit it was supposed to be."

    Expectations were high, perhaps too high. They went all in, gambled and lost. 

     

    "But for that game to fail to live up to expectations? It might actually crush you."

    What I don't get is, how many people were working on this one title? Not a single soul could come up with half the complaints that the customers came up with in a matter of hours of gameplay?

    That they decided to leave, I get it. I totally get it. Try putting yourself in their positions. It seems impossible to me for them to have been oblivious about how good/bad their own game was.

    Something else was going on...we might never find out until perhaps some time has passed and a documentary is made about this massively failed project titled Titanic SWTOR: Death of a Dream

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member

    As someone who enjoyed the games they made for decades (NWN, BG series in particular) it is sad they've left.

    But then again, gaming communities are just some of the most awful ones out there so it isn't surprising.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • gervaise1gervaise1 .Posts: 2,084Member Uncommon

    EA is one of four EA divisions  - and the only thing above those divisions is EA board (and shareholders).

    When independent Bioware will have been driven by the need to "make a profit" - borrowing money from banks if necessary. And whilst people say that if they, Bioware, were independent of EA they would have been able to spend an extra year or two years polishing SWTOR that probably wouldn't have been the case. Employees like to get paid!

    As heads of one of the four divisions the two docs will have had significant input into the running of EA including things like internal borrowing and profit targets. In that sense "EA" replaced whatever bankers "independent Bioware" used. 

    And as such whatever success or failure might be attributed to SWTOR it sits fair and square with "EA" / "EA Bioware". And for all intents and purposes the two are the same. 

    And to be clear EA Bioware is a bigger beast than Bioware; the two docs role having expanded way beyond simply running a single studio.

    And EA are "in trouble" as far as shareholders are concerned; hence the fall in the share price. And when that happens people start to look for board changes. Whether they are in trouble or not doesn't matter, until EA stop using the markets to raise funds (via bonds) they need to deliver a certain level of success. It all turns into pressure that filters down the corporate structure. Doesn't surprise me that the two docs left; just add then to the pile of Zynga directors that are leaving!

    And here is a link for the latest problem that includes a comment about investors not being prepared to overlook the return on investment on a AAA game in order to gain market share - different AAA game but the primciple is the same. And EA do not publish that many titles these days either! 

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/178493/EA_drops_the_ball_with_NBA_Live_cancellation.php

  • erictlewiserictlewis Cottondale, ALPosts: 3,026Member Uncommon

    A few months ago I listed in on the board meeting.  One investor asked why he should continue giving EA his money, they ran the because we are ea by that one.  Right after that another investor asked if Richeo or however you spell the ceo's name was going to step down,  ea said that Richeo had their full support.

    Not even the investors are happy at this point, it is just not gamers.

  • BardusBardus Cornet, ALPosts: 460Member
    Someone at Forbes must of lost their ass on EA stocks. Forbes is constantly posting negative articles on TOR when Forbes has nothing in the world to do with games LOL.

    image

  • JonokuJonoku Cool, PAPosts: 645Member
    Originally posted by jerlot65
    Originally posted by Sevenstar61

    Link

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2012/09/28/trent-oster-thinks-fans-negativity-and-ea-drove-muzyka-and-zeschuk-from-bioware/

     

    I would say I am not surprised that they would want to quit because of fan negativity. SWTOR "fans" venom could kill every body.

    If that were true. the only thing proven is MMO fans are the crappiest fans for anything.  Problem with the cry babys, they dont know technical limitations, they have no patience, and all want something different,

    All of us mmo fans are 90 years old, of course we have no patience, our time on earth is running out!!!

    Looking at: The Repopulation
    Preordering: None
    Playing: Random Games

  • OG_ZorvanOG_Zorvan Fresno, CAPosts: 615Member

    I have no sympathy for the Dr.s, at all.

    They knew what they were getting into with EA.

    They made a bet that money was greater than their integrity. They lost.

     

    Edit: And Trent Oster and people like the OP blaming the fans is just one more common symptom of EAware's failure: passing the buck.

    "It's not our/their fault!! It's the fans!"

     

    EA CEO John Riccitiello's on future microtransactions: "When you are six hours into playing Battlefield and you run out of ammo in your clip, and we ask you for a dollar to reload, you're really not very price sensitive at that point in time...We're not gouging, but we're charging."

  • tiefighter25tiefighter25 Winchester, MAPosts: 937Member
    Originally posted by OG_Zorvan

    I have no sympathy for the Dr.s, at all.

    They knew what they were getting into with EA.

    They made a bet that money was greater than their integrity. They lost.

     

    Edit: And Trent Oster and people like the OP blaming the fans is just one more common symptom of EAware's failure: passing the buck.

    "It's not our/their fault!! It's the fans!"

     

    I do read a lot of "Stabbed in the back" statements on the SWTOR forums.

    A partital list of their usual suspects are: Hardcore Raiders, quick level cappers, casuals, SWG fans, PVP'ers, MMO "locusts", anyone who liked WoW, anyone who likes Guild Wars, sandbox enthusists, probable paid competitiors posting in their forums, the economy, the receent demise of pay to play, EA, the Media, 2 million impatient former subscribers, chronic  complainers, haters, people who don't like to role alts,  space-barers, people who chose the wrong server to play on, SWTOR forum moderators for being too lenient, Reddit, 4chan, here,  etc.

    The remaining SWTOR official forum community is honestly the most vitriolic fanbase I can recall coming across.

  • grimalgrimal Stamford, CTPosts: 2,874Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Grim:

    Critics are easily pleased by a prior reputation and a brown paper bag full of readies, hence swtor and d3 reviews

    I was trying to make the point that you guys remembering SWG as this great game are looking at it through rose colored glasses.

    The version of the game everyone remembers so fondly (pre CU) lasted 2 years.  Even during that time, the game didn't have a huge following.  There were the dedicated fans, like there are for any MMO, but it was not this revered game you all keep trying to make it out to be.

    None of my friends liked it (I was an MMO player at that time).  I remember participating in Beta 3 and thought it was terrible (I still have the CDs if anyone doubts this).

    Post NGE, the game was a ghosttown. Nearly everyone on these boards wished the game's demise and now suddenly it's gone and a vocal few are calling for it's resurrection?  Please.

    Aside from it's sandbox features (which needed a full population for it to work) and the SW license, the game severely lacked.  It was bug-ridden, there was no specific time-period within the game...you saw stuff leftover from the clone wars to seeing items past EP 4-6...made no sense.  They added annoying little themeparks (rebel themepark, etc) but these were all poorly done.  There was no Galactic War or sense of War going on...you could be a rebel and sit right next to an Imperial and unless you flagged yourself on-duty, nothing happened.

    Animations were broken...I love the immediately fall-down sprite when you were killed.

    Once the population left from the game, it was an empty sandbox...devoid of anything to do.

    The game shut down for a reason: NO ONE PLAYED IT nor LIKED IT FOR YEARS.  You trying to paint a different picture from the actual reality is desperate at best.

    I played the game only because it was the SW universe, but it was not this great MMORPG you are all making it out to be.

    /rant_off

  • grimalgrimal Stamford, CTPosts: 2,874Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tamanous

    Seems to me SWTOR is the opposite of a critical darling. It would have to have had climbed in sales after release to be called that. Now I have said nothing about that matter really but SWTOR seems to me to be the farthest thing from a critical darling. In fact I would say Turbine's DDO and Lotro are critical darlings. They have maintained a level of players and have seem critical increases over time. SWTOR will always be known for not living up to expectations. The bar was set far too high (due to hype and more importantly cost) to ever be called a critical darling.

    Point to me one of the Major Reviewers not giving this game a high score.

    PC Gamer gave TOR a 93 (or close).  SWG was repeatedly termed "coaster of the year" by that game (meaning it's CD was of no use other than a drink coaster).

  • grimalgrimal Stamford, CTPosts: 2,874Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tamanous

    There were elements to the game that were amazing but the game itself was terrible. Far far too many players are remembering it though rose-coloured glasses. I would absolutely love to see some of the mechanics implemented into other mmo's but SWG as a whole could not support itself. Long before the NGE the game was a ghost town only played by a small core playerbase. It certainly needed to have many core elements reworked to make it a success but sadly the oportunity was squandered with an attempt to turn it into a Wow clone.

    Exactly.  Unless the person was a hardcore SW fan, chances are they didn't play the game.  The only people I knew that played were made up of this crowd.

  • grimalgrimal Stamford, CTPosts: 2,874Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by superniceguy

    SOE makes mistakes, and they tend let people pull their strings a bit much, but Smedley is a decent guy (although makes poor business decsions which gives SOE the bad rep) - when new games gets releases, by competitors, he always wishes them well, unlike EA who wants the games "to rot to the core"

    Smedley is a decent guy?  Since when?  Since he admitted the NGE was a mistake?  Before that, the hatred for this guy on these boards was beyond anything EA has conjured since.

  • grimalgrimal Stamford, CTPosts: 2,874Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TarotMage

    Pff - blaming the fans for Muzyka & Zeschuk's departure is like blaming the iceberg for the Titanic disaster.

     

    Any smart businessman would have first done their research regarding EA's long and ugly history with game companies, followed by a  long pro/con debate, and finally an even longer debate. Maybe it's me but I just get a visual of EA pushing piles of money towards the good doctors, which then cues the classic eyes-turn-into-dollar-signs cartoon cliche' (insert sound of ringng cash register or the first five notes of "We're In The Money" here.)

     

    Face it - partnering with EA is pretty much like spending your first night in prison with your three cellmates. The end result is pretty much the same.

     

     

    Yes, hindsight is great, but we don't know the reasons why Bioware allowed themselves to be bought out by EA.  I'm sure there's a lot more to the story than simply greed on BW's part.

  • grimalgrimal Stamford, CTPosts: 2,874Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sevenstar61

     

    If you would put all your heart into creation of something that you thought was great  and after you finished it everybody would hate and bash the project you spent several years on, would you not like to quit and never touch anything connected to it?

    I would. Especially if I would have enough money to not worry what I will put into my mouth tomorrow :)

    Absolutely.  The "gamers" have been downright disgusting in their attitude.  People need to remember, there are real people behind all of this.

Sign In or Register to comment.