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Sooo many skills/hotkeys at any given time...

gessekai332gessekai332 New York City, NYPosts: 854Member Uncommon

I dont know why people think that there are not that many hotkeys/skills in the game. Maybe its because they never weapon swap or only use one build the entire game? My main is an engineer, he has 5 weapon skills, heal, 3 toolbelt skills, 4 utility skills, elite skill, 2 of the utility skills gives me an entire new weapon skill bar(8 more skills), and the last utility skill has a second and third optional function after it is activated (fire a knockdown missle or explode to do damage). In total that is 24 skills with unique effects at my disposal during combat, while having to worry about dodging/action oriented combat. That is just with ONE build. And unlike other games which only have 1 or 2 cookie cutter builds per class, GW2 actually has many viable builds available for many different occasions ( zerg aoe build, support heal/condition build, single target spike dps,condition build, tank/defense build, etc). On top of that, the traits in this game provide VERY significant changes to skills, creating even more variation, unlike other games where you get insignificant effects like 0.5% more dmg for a skill for each trait point invested.

 

sorry guys, if you think guild wars 2 has too few skills, then you are playing it wrong (tm).       

Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)

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Comments

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    GW2 has plenty of actual skills my only gripe is I would like some sort of system like the utility skill system for the weapon skills.. It would be nice to be able to swap out differn't individual skills on weapons. Hopefully this is something they will add in the future

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • RandaynRandayn Sellersville, PAPosts: 883Member Uncommon

    My complaint has less to do with skills and more to do with ease of play.  the game is REALLY easy to play.  you don't need all the skills you are naming to beat any of the open world content....maybe dungeons, which leads me to my second complaint.

    It's great that you can have ANY viable build with ANY class, but then why have classes at all?  It's counter-intuitive.  If anyone can be anything at anytime, then why the need to differentiate?  which leads me to my third and final complaint,

    The ability to differentiate yourself as something others are not is a keystone feature in the MMO universe.  It's the pride factor.  I think GW2 made a mistake by removing this entirely.

    image
  • GaborikGaborik Roseville, MNPosts: 251Member

    Well I see people are still defending this game.  I am confused its been a month and the same people over and over and over and over come on here and feel the need to defend it.  Thats great you enjoy your game, the game I play I have over 30 action with 3 differnt builds, and they are far from cookie cutter.  So GW2 is not the 1st or the best game when it comes to actions/builds. 

     

    BTW how is GW2 doing on xfire I know that was one the fans HUGE selling points about how awesome the game is...I believe its now ranked 5th and has peaked. 

  • FionFion Montour Falls, NYPosts: 2,351Member

    Yea OP. Now you may understand why before release people thought there weren't very many skills in the game. How many 'only 5 attack skills?' threads did we see here. I tried and tried to show that it wasn't true but few people listened. So it's funny now that we get the reverse. :)

    As to swaping weapon skills around I really don't see how that would hurt anything, so long as those 5 skills are the same as they are now.

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  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Lol wow
  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Randayn

    My complaint has less to do with skills and more to do with ease of play.  the game is REALLY easy to play.  you don't need all the skills you are naming to beat any of the open world content....maybe dungeons, which leads me to my second complaint.

    It's great that you can have ANY viable build with ANY class, but then why have classes at all?  It's counter-intuitive.  If anyone can be anything at anytime, then why the need to differentiate?  which leads me to my third and final complaint,

    The ability to differentiate yourself as something others are not is a keystone feature in the MMO universe.  It's the pride factor.  I think GW2 made a mistake by removing this entirely.

    i found it changed vastly dependent on class.. for example my Ranger can easily take on a couple mobs 3 levels over my level. My elementalist gets destroyed in a similar situation unless I'm very carefull and very fast as doing the elemental swap.  Warrior same thing very simple to take on several mobs even a couple levels higher.. thief on the other hand had to be very carefull and use my abilities very wisely or i would eat dirt... so for me difficulty is really class dependent

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • RandaynRandayn Sellersville, PAPosts: 883Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Randayn

    My complaint has less to do with skills and more to do with ease of play.  the game is REALLY easy to play.  you don't need all the skills you are naming to beat any of the open world content....maybe dungeons, which leads me to my second complaint.

    It's great that you can have ANY viable build with ANY class, but then why have classes at all?  It's counter-intuitive.  If anyone can be anything at anytime, then why the need to differentiate?  which leads me to my third and final complaint,

    The ability to differentiate yourself as something others are not is a keystone feature in the MMO universe.  It's the pride factor.  I think GW2 made a mistake by removing this entirely.

    i found it changed vastly dependent on class.. for example my Ranger can easily take on a couple mobs 3 levels over my level. My elementalist gets destroyed in a similar situation unless I'm very carefull and very fast as doing the elemental swap.  Warrior same thing very simple to take on several mobs even a couple levels higher.. thief on the other hand had to be very carefull and use my abilities very wisely or i would eat dirt... so for me difficulty is really class dependent

    Yeah, i didnt play every class, so my findings are only as good as the classes I played.  Played Warrior, Guard and Thief extensively.  Saw a difference in overall dps and how much damage they each took, but all seemed to be on par with ease of use. 

    image
  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Randayn
     

    Yeah, i didnt play every class, so my findings are only as good as the classes I played.  Played Warrior, Guard and Thief extensively.  Saw a difference in overall dps and how much damage they each took, but all seemed to be on par with ease of use. 

    if you want more of a challenge I suggest elementalist... so far has been most challenging class for me.... obviously ymmv

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • gessekai332gessekai332 New York City, NYPosts: 854Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Randayn

    My complaint has less to do with skills and more to do with ease of play.  the game is REALLY easy to play.  you don't need all the skills you are naming to beat any of the open world content....maybe dungeons, which leads me to my second complaint.

    It's great that you can have ANY viable build with ANY class, but then why have classes at all?  It's counter-intuitive.  If anyone can be anything at anytime, then why the need to differentiate?  which leads me to my third and final complaint,

    The ability to differentiate yourself as something others are not is a keystone feature in the MMO universe.  It's the pride factor.  I think GW2 made a mistake by removing this entirely.

    each class are slightly better in some roles than others and even though each can fulfill many different types of roles they all do it in a very unique way. guardian can "tank" with buffs and protective/reflective barriers. Thieves can "tank" by evading and stealth.  engineers can "tank" by CC and drinking short duration invulnerability potions. i guess the problem is that you dont really get to see these difference stand out unless you are doing particularly difficult content such as explorable dungeons or pvp.

    Originally posted by Gaborik

    Well I see people are still defending this game.  I am confused its been a month and the same people over and over and over and over come on here and feel the need to defend it.  Thats great you enjoy your game, the game I play I have over 30 action with 3 differnt builds, and they are far from cookie cutter.  So GW2 is not the 1st or the best game when it comes to actions/builds. 

     

    BTW how is GW2 doing on xfire I know that was one the fans HUGE selling points about how awesome the game is...I believe its now ranked 5th and has peaked. 

    What is wrong with defending a game i like in a forum dedicated to that game? Its not like I am going to your game's forum and defending GW2 or trolling them over there like what people from other games do. I am defending it because it is actually doing very well in game, the servers are still high capacity, the guild I am in is still full, most people playing are very happy with the game, but on the forums are filled with irritating troll posts spouting misleading or wrong information(and many of these posts are made by people who dont even play the game).

    Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)

  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    GW2 has plenty of actual skills my only gripe is I would like some sort of system like the utility skill system for the weapon skills.. It would be nice to be able to swap out differn't individual skills on weapons. Hopefully this is something they will add in the future

    I doubt it, I think they main reason they went for a system like this is for balance purposes. This game unlike many other mmos is built with pvp in mind from the get go. They have already stated they wanted to keep the amount of skills and skill combinations down in GW2 for balance and they removed the secondary class for the same reason. Im not seeing this ever happening.

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  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    GW2 has plenty of actual skills my only gripe is I would like some sort of system like the utility skill system for the weapon skills.. It would be nice to be able to swap out differn't individual skills on weapons. Hopefully this is something they will add in the future

    I doubt it, I think they main reason they went for a system like this is for balance purposes. This game unlike many other mmos is built with pvp in mind from the get go. They have already stated they wanted to keep the amount of skills and skill combinations down in GW2 for balance and they removed the secondary class for the same reason. Im not seeing this ever happening.

    well see i do expect they will add in new weapon types down the road though so that at least will give more options in that regard..  but yea more skills harder it is to balance things

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • RandaynRandayn Sellersville, PAPosts: 883Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gessekai332

    Originally posted by Randayn

    My complaint has less to do with skills and more to do with ease of play.  the game is REALLY easy to play.  you don't need all the skills you are naming to beat any of the open world content....maybe dungeons, which leads me to my second complaint.

    It's great that you can have ANY viable build with ANY class, but then why have classes at all?  It's counter-intuitive.  If anyone can be anything at anytime, then why the need to differentiate?  which leads me to my third and final complaint,

    The ability to differentiate yourself as something others are not is a keystone feature in the MMO universe.  It's the pride factor.  I think GW2 made a mistake by removing this entirely.

    each class are slightly better in some roles than others and even though each can fulfill many different types of roles they all do it in a very unique way. guardian can "tank" with buffs and protective/reflective barriers. Thieves can "tank" by evading and stealth.  engineers can "tank" by CC and drinking short duration invulnerability potions. i guess the problem is that you dont really get to see these difference stand out unless you are doing particularly difficult content such as explorable dungeons or pvp.

    Originally posted by Gaborik

    Well I see people are still defending this game.  I am confused its been a month and the same people over and over and over and over come on here and feel the need to defend it.  Thats great you enjoy your game, the game I play I have over 30 action with 3 differnt builds, and they are far from cookie cutter.  So GW2 is not the 1st or the best game when it comes to actions/builds. 

     

    BTW how is GW2 doing on xfire I know that was one the fans HUGE selling points about how awesome the game is...I believe its now ranked 5th and has peaked. 

    What is wrong with defending a game i like in a forum dedicated to that game? Its not like I am going to your game's forum and defending GW2 or trolling them over there like what people from other games do. I am defending it because it is actually doing very well in game, the servers are still high capacity, the guild I am in is still full, most people playing are very happy with the game, but on the forums are filled with irritating troll posts spouting misleading or wrong information(and many of these posts are made by people who dont even play the game).

    The text in orange is something anyone on this forum should be in agreement with....don't see how O.P. is doing anything anyone can consider "wrong".  These kinds of post are what keep the forums alive adn kicking....no need to bash them

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  • RandaynRandayn Sellersville, PAPosts: 883Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Randayn
     

    Yeah, i didnt play every class, so my findings are only as good as the classes I played.  Played Warrior, Guard and Thief extensively.  Saw a difference in overall dps and how much damage they each took, but all seemed to be on par with ease of use. 

    if you want more of a challenge I suggest elementalist... so far has been most challenging class for me.... obviously ymmv

    I think I will try them...they look like alot of fun, but I'm not a big fan of caster classes

    image
  • GaborikGaborik Roseville, MNPosts: 251Member
    Originally posted by gessekai332

    I dont know why people think that there are not that many hotkeys/skills in the game. Maybe its because they never weapon swap or only use one build the entire game? My main is an engineer, he has 5 weapon skills, heal, 3 toolbelt skills, 4 utility skills, elite skill, 2 of the utility skills gives me an entire new weapon skill bar(8 more skills), and the last utility skill has a second and third optional function after it is activated (fire a knockdown missle or explode to do damage). In total that is 24 skills with unique effects at my disposal during combat, while having to worry about dodging/action oriented combat. That is just with ONE build. And unlike other games which only have 1 or 2 cookie cutter builds per class, GW2 actually has many viable builds available for many different occasions ( zerg aoe build, support heal/condition build, single target spike dps,condition build, tank/defense build, etc). On top of that, the traits in this game provide VERY significant changes to skills, creating even more variation, unlike other games where you get insignificant effects like 0.5% more dmg for a skill for each trait point invested.

     

    sorry guys, if you think guild wars 2 has too few skills, then you are playing it wrong (tm).       

    Thats fine but when the OP decided to try and bash other games is when his post became a fanboi thread. 

  • RandaynRandayn Sellersville, PAPosts: 883Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gaborik
    Originally posted by gessekai332

    I dont know why people think that there are not that many hotkeys/skills in the game. Maybe its because they never weapon swap or only use one build the entire game? My main is an engineer, he has 5 weapon skills, heal, 3 toolbelt skills, 4 utility skills, elite skill, 2 of the utility skills gives me an entire new weapon skill bar(8 more skills), and the last utility skill has a second and third optional function after it is activated (fire a knockdown missle or explode to do damage). In total that is 24 skills with unique effects at my disposal during combat, while having to worry about dodging/action oriented combat. That is just with ONE build. And unlike other games which only have 1 or 2 cookie cutter builds per class, GW2 actually has many viable builds available for many different occasions ( zerg aoe build, support heal/condition build, single target spike dps,condition build, tank/defense build, etc). On top of that, the traits in this game provide VERY significant changes to skills, creating even more variation, unlike other games where you get insignificant effects like 0.5% more dmg for a skill for each trait point invested.

     

    sorry guys, if you think guild wars 2 has too few skills, then you are playing it wrong (tm).       

    Thats fine but when the OP decided to try and bash other games is when his post became a fanboi thread. 

    Go on the TSW forums....you'll see my fanboi threads there....I come to GW2 to try and figure out a way to enjoy GW2....Ive bashed GW2 a million times, but that doesnt mean Im gonna tell someone else their post is irrelevant...I beg people to post so that I have something to read and react to.  Discussion is the basic point of a forum.  

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  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,925Member Uncommon

    Its actually very simple. Not only are there 9 keys max at once, but many are very situational and very rarely used. Add in that the 1 key is an auto attack, you only got 8 buttons you really use. Of those buttons if your using the same weapon 5 are ALWAYS going to be the same. Utility wise with 2 level 80s, I virtually find only a select few skills really good to use, so typically its the same skills with maybe 1 unility swapped out in place (mesmer for example I use teleport but swap in for a cleanse/debuffing field for group play).

    Its not a bad thing really, you don't need a vast amount of keys to make it 'challenging' though GW2 is very very very very very easy if your playing certain classes. Swapping weapons really isn't as 'glorious' as people make it to be. You will use 2 keys from one weapon often times and swap to another to use one or two more.

    You hit level 30, you experienced what combat will be like for the rest of the game. Sure, some traits do alter it a little (mesmer clone on dodge being one I personally have a lot of use with) but they aren't that massive changes, just more insentive to do other things like dodge more often outside of escaping attacks at times. 

    Its just a very simple skill system in this game with a relatively steep learning curve. Once people figure out what skills are just not worth it and what is good, its a very easy game to play. Without dodge, combat would be elementary level difficulty on most classes. 

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Randayn
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Randayn
     

    Yeah, i didnt play every class, so my findings are only as good as the classes I played.  Played Warrior, Guard and Thief extensively.  Saw a difference in overall dps and how much damage they each took, but all seemed to be on par with ease of use. 

    if you want more of a challenge I suggest elementalist... so far has been most challenging class for me.... obviously ymmv

    I think I will try them...they look like alot of fun, but I'm not a big fan of caster classes

    give dagger/dagger a shot seems ot be favorite among people I know who aren't caster fans

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • RandaynRandayn Sellersville, PAPosts: 883Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Randayn
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Randayn
     

    Yeah, i didnt play every class, so my findings are only as good as the classes I played.  Played Warrior, Guard and Thief extensively.  Saw a difference in overall dps and how much damage they each took, but all seemed to be on par with ease of use. 

    if you want more of a challenge I suggest elementalist... so far has been most challenging class for me.... obviously ymmv

    I think I will try them...they look like alot of fun, but I'm not a big fan of caster classes

    give dagger/dagger a shot seems ot be favorite among people I know who aren't caster fans

    cool, thanks, will definitely give it a go

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  • TeknoBugTeknoBug Calgary, ABPosts: 2,156Member

    I have exactly 12 keybinds for specials in GW2, in Aion, WoW, SWTOR, etc. I had 42-46... soooooo many?


    The part where skill comes into play is having only 3 utility plus an elite slot and 24/3 to choose from for the correct situation, I can't use the same choices in both pve and pvp, a set of utility choices may work in pve but in pvp I change the utilities that works better against players (different choices in world vs world and structure pvp). Same goes for events and dungeons.

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  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Purutzil

    Its actually very simple. Not only are there 9 keys max at once, but many are very situational and very rarely used. Add in that the 1 key is an auto attack, you only got 8 buttons you really use. Of those buttons if your using the same weapon 5 are ALWAYS going to be the same. Utility wise with 2 level 80s, I virtually find only a select few skills really good to use, so typically its the same skills with maybe 1 unility swapped out in place (mesmer for example I use teleport but swap in for a cleanse/debuffing field for group play).

    Its not a bad thing really, you don't need a vast amount of keys to make it 'challenging' though GW2 is very very very very very easy if your playing certain classes. Swapping weapons really isn't as 'glorious' as people make it to be. You will use 2 keys from one weapon often times and swap to another to use one or two more.

    You hit level 30, you experienced what combat will be like for the rest of the game. Sure, some traits do alter it a little (mesmer clone on dodge being one I personally have a lot of use with) but they aren't that massive changes, just more insentive to do other things like dodge more often outside of escaping attacks at times. 

    Its just a very simple skill system in this game with a relatively steep learning curve. Once people figure out what skills are just not worth it and what is good, its a very easy game to play. Without dodge, combat would be elementary level difficulty on most classes. 

    how is that much differn't from any other MMO? most MMOs playstyle doesn't really change much you get couple more abilites here and there and some talents or whatever to boost or enhance skills you already have but overall it's more or less very similar in how you play. Also if you want a class with more complex system where you need to constantly swap sets(elements) play elementalist

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • RandaynRandayn Sellersville, PAPosts: 883Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TeknoBug

    I have exactly 12 keybinds for specials in GW2, in Aion, WoW, SWTOR, etc. I had 42-46... soooooo many?

    but how many of the 42-46 were for pots, pre-fight buffs, mounts and other things like that?

     

    Aion had the simplest and slowest combat....WoW and Swtor weren't too far behind....they are basic and stupid simple.  I wouldn't go as far as to say GW2 (or GW1) for that matter were that simple.

    TSW only has 7 skill slots and 7 passives, but you can rest assured that it's 10x more complicated than Aion, WoW, SWTOR and Hello Kitty put together.  

     

    Again, the point isn't how many skills do you have in your arsenal, it's how many do you need to succeed....

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  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Randayn
    Originally posted by TeknoBug

    I have exactly 12 keybinds for specials in GW2, in Aion, WoW, SWTOR, etc. I had 42-46... soooooo many?

    but how many of the 42-46 were for pots, pre-fight buffs, mounts and other things like that?

     

    Aion had the simplest and slowest combat....WoW and Swtor weren't too far behind....they are basic and stupid simple.  I wouldn't go as far as to say GW2 (or GW1) for that matter were that simple.

    TSW only has 7 skill slots and 7 passives, but you can rest assured that it's 10x more complicated than Aion, WoW, SWTOR and Hello Kitty put together.  

     

    Again, the point isn't how many skills do you have in your arsenal, it's how many do you need to succeed....

    to me that's the big thing in many of those games you have 40 hotbar abilities and many had 5+ min cooldowns or even 10 min or higher.. in GW2 I constantly use all my abilities save maybe 1 or 2 situational ones.

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • IsawaIsawa Middle 0 Nowhere, ORPosts: 1,051Member
    Originally posted by Randayn
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Randayn
    Originally posted by Aerowyn

    if you want more of a challenge I suggest elementalist... so far has been most challenging class for me.... obviously ymmv

    I think I will try them...they look like alot of fun, but I'm not a big fan of caster classes

    give dagger/dagger a shot seems ot be favorite among people I know who aren't caster fans

    cool, thanks, will definitely give it a go

    Haha dagger/dagger seems to be my most often defeated state while playing that class :) Mesmer and elementalist are much tougher to play than my main guardian, can actually see the benefit of your dodges and defensive skills when playing these two.

  • YakkinYakkin irvine, CAPosts: 919Member

    Do you know what bugs me? People who act like having hundred of abilities available to you somehow means the game is super complex and deep, and that it needs more skill to play, even IF roughly 1/3 of those skills are skills that are only used in the early stages of the game and is totally useless at the later stages, another 1/3 are basically clones of each other, and the last 1/3 is the only part you ever use, and even then you only use about 2-5 of those abilities most of the time.

    How does more somehow equal better or more deep, is what I'm asking.

  • RandaynRandayn Sellersville, PAPosts: 883Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Eluldor
    Originally posted by Randayn
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Randayn
    Originally posted by Aerowyn

    if you want more of a challenge I suggest elementalist... so far has been most challenging class for me.... obviously ymmv

    I think I will try them...they look like alot of fun, but I'm not a big fan of caster classes

    give dagger/dagger a shot seems ot be favorite among people I know who aren't caster fans

    cool, thanks, will definitely give it a go

    Haha dagger/dagger seems to be my most often defeated state while playing that class :) Mesmer and elementalist are much tougher to play than my main guardian, can actually see the benefit of your dodges and defensive skills when playing these two.

    I'm siked to try it.  After going from level 1-80 as a tank specced sword and shield Guardian in Age of Conan (dont ask me why I did that....stupid me)....it's hard to find a good challenge

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