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Originally posted by darkhalf357x Originally posted by fenistil Originally posted by Eir_S Originally posted by Random_mage Oh, and the need to actually learn a skill at a trainer is gone.
That sucks. They should be leaving the little things in, not removing them to make the game more accessible. What's next? Having a little pre-programmed golf cart to zip you around between quest hubs and quest objectives, and then turn them in for you when you're finished? At least they brought back world bosses.
There was some korean f2p game (forgot name, anyone can help?) that had auto-questing feature. Seriously it was in-build bot that would run for you in and from quest objective. Since mainstream mmorpg's borrow things from f2p korean ones then well - who knows? ;p
Anyway - mmorpg's (and some other game types as well) stripped themself from dozens of little things in order to streamline - that they became bore and snorefests.
LOL, thats almost all of them :-) The one I played was called Eden Eternal (pretty neat game as it allowed you to change to any class and level them up individually).
I have to admit I loved the feature. Get a quest. Select auto-route. And while my toon was on its way I would level up, read up on skills, speak to guildies, etc. Very efficient. Some of the problem I have with 'advanced' MMOs is sometimes I cant find the daym thing I am supposed to be questing for. Then I spend (waste) time looking. That's not fun for me.
Got grindy in the mid 30s, and game needed another downpour of love to elevate quality and flesh out its experience but was a fun nice-looking romp for an F2P title.
Heh talk about diffrent tastes.
I remember when I saw that I immedietaly decided to quit and stop playing.
Yeah it is effective and are most things done for streamlining. I don't play for effectiveness though, at least not mostly.For me one of best things of mmorpg's were that you had to look, find, figure out quests. Nowadays it is not possible since games are swamped in hundreads upon hundreads of short meaningless quests.
So arrows pointing / markers showing me exactly what I have to do are killing gameplay for me. Auto-bot is even worse. I don't have to say that I hated this "featue" with strenght of thousand suns. Was bit funny thoigh to realize there are games like that.
I mean why don't get rid out questing at all if it look like that? For me it is no point in playing something like this.
Of course I respect your preferences - just I think our tastes differ so much that I could not play your dream mmorpg.
Originally posted by expresso Originally posted by Random_mage Thats the point.. The 6 abilities. Classes that did multiply things all melded to one. Class distimction.. Gone
Lets stop pretending there was choice or uniqueness in the old system, there wasn't.
Oh there was choice, but unless you picked the right one, you had no chance of doing something. But thats problem in many games. A lot of choices, but something is always overpowered for that particular class, that you are not "allowed" to play anything else.
Played: Lineage 2,Guild Wars 1 and 2, Age of Conan, Ragnarok Online, LOTRO, World of Warcraft, League of Legends, EvE onlineTried: KAL Online, Face of Mankind, ROSE onlinePlaying: CS:GO
Originally posted by Tardcore Originally posted by WhiteLantern Originally posted by Random_mage Thats the point.. The 6 abilities. Classes that did multiply things all melded to one. Class distimction.. Gone
What's worse is that now the game goes as far as to tell you what your specs "optimal" rotation is and when you should be using which abilities.
I've never paid attention to my shot rotations before. Didn't care. Don't need to be "best". Now, everytime I do something that is not in my "optimal" rotation, I expect a popup window that says: "You're playing it wrong"(tm).
This is what comes of a company deciding to fix created content and game balance isssues by taking away the freedom of the player. "We're tired of having to do all that work so from now on you will only play how we tell you to play."
Remember the old days of Devs telling you strenghts and weaknesses of each class and which ones were better for newbs and which required more "skill" to play? Does no one want that anymore?
"Balance" is the bane of freedom-to-play.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
Yes there was. I did take the time to read each skill an made my choice. People who dont see the choices are those who go to a website to choose a pre-built for maximum dps or else and they think everybody else should do the same thing.
I agree somewhat...but I think they did away with a system that just wasnt the best anyway...at least not anymore. I know not all, but a majority of the dedicated players went for the best build for the spec and it was basically a cookie cutter model anyway. Yah you could change a few talents here and there, but the were pretty much meaningless anyway. I dont see the big deal unless you were really into experimenting and it made a huge difference to your playstyle, which I dont think it did....just my view. Yah its different, but look where we started, it was slowly heading to this anyway.
Originally posted by WhiteLantern Originally posted by Random_mage Thats the point.. The 6 abilities. Classes that did multiply things all melded to one. Class distimction.. Gone
I guess Blizz wants more people to be able to raid lol
No one can deny the system is therefore dumbed down. Honestly when I was playing WoW I enjoyed looking at the trees and being able to allocate points. Every level up seemed worth something.
In any event I am a long way away from WoW now. Remarkable but true. In fact,, I find it hard to believe that after all the MMOs I played to the hilt I am now faced with none that have my interest.
All of my focus is currently trying to find the 87 Bazillion Guns in Borderlands 2 lol.
Originally posted by JeroKane Originally posted by Eir_S Originally posted by Random_mage Oh, and the need to actually learn a skill at a trainer is gone.
They removed melee from my hunter! /facepalm
Seriously tho... I am getting so fed up with Blizzard changing things that DO NOT need changing!!
They wouldn't have to if hunters didn't ninja everything claiming it was a hunter weapon. But if someone rolls on that epic Bow, the hunters cry foul!
Originally posted by Azzataky Originally posted by expresso Originally posted by Random_mage Thats the point.. The 6 abilities. Classes that did multiply things all melded to one. Class distimction.. Gone
I cant agree, with you. Here an example about vanilla wow: I was a rogue and i was spec combat cause i liked having 2 swords and fighting like a blade dancer.
Now if im rember correctly, almost all my rogue guildmate was going for dagger and assassination. They ask me: why you dont re-spec like us, you will do more dps in raid, i said because i dont like the style you play, sneak and backstab is not for me, i prefer frienzy style with sword.The subjec was closed. Did someone force me to change no.
You know, just because you have access to spells instead of training for them on your talent builds doesn't mean you HAVE to use them. If you want to be different, just remove the skill you don't want to use from your hotbar.
If you want to be "different", then be different. It's your "CHOICE". Stop crying and just play the game like you want to. The only person forcing you to play a certain way is YOU.
Originally posted by Silok Originally posted by Azzataky Originally posted by expresso Originally posted by Random_mage Thats the point.. The 6 abilities. Classes that did multiply things all melded to one. Class distimction.. Gone
I was also combat from the beginning when barely any were. Loved playing like a berserker. The funny thing is, people started realizing I did more damage than them and started changing to combat. My build still differed a bit and while they had the agreed upon "optimal" build, I still did more dps.
I remember later on, we had like 6 rogues in guild with similar gear, all with different builds, and all our dps was comparable. There definitely was choice.
I wouldn't mind the pre cata talent trees, plus the new mop 6 skill choices. Go for more customization, not less. Probably why eq and daoc are still my favorite. They had secondary progression, customization (although the first customization didn't have much going on, the 2nd more than made up for it.)
Adding more character customization seems to make the game more immersive, spice it up. Brings out the RPG in MMORPG. Removing choices, even if minor ones from before, simplifies the game too much, waters it down, making it less immersive, less important what you do, and how you do it.
Damn it does sound like they are removing any research or thought you would need to put into your character. RPG elements be damned. I'm glad I quit at the start of Cata because these changes would have forced me to quit (not to mention the ultra kiddie imagery).
Sidenote: This game is turning into the complete opposite of TSW. Can you imagine your normal MoP WoW player thrown into TSW and told to make their own build. I don't think they could quit quick enough lol.
Edit: Not saying that making a build in TSW is all that difficult but it does require a small bit of thought and patience.
I'm leveling a monk. I broke down and bout the dam thing if for nothing than to kill a month.Frankly, I think the OP is going a bit overboard. Yes, he has some legitimate criticism. But in the end, I think WoW just saved everyone the time it takes to go over to Elitist Jerks, copy the build and plug it in talent for talent, half the time without even thinking about the reasoning. Yep, EJ figured it out, good enough for me. Now just give me my rotation macros. Because that's all it really was. You either had a cookie cutter spec, or you were kicked from teams.
Yeah, I used to love theory crafting and being in control over my talent choices and rotations and such, but really, did you ever really have it? No.
A lot of what OP is complaining about isn't new. It's how WoW has always been played. Blizz just took it away from the stupid people.
But then again, that's all you can really expect from this game. I think I'll get my money's worth, But I doubt I'll have the sub for more than the single month
It does feel dumbed down. I was trying to get away from that phrase, but it's a great way to explain it. Yes, it also feels like we are all progressing to raid status. Every ret paladin plays the same. I don't like that. if I want to stand back and cast exorsism, then let me do that (and have my talents reflect extra damage for that skill). now each class has 3 different trees, but each tree is just like anyone else that picks that class/tree combo. It's just dissappointing.
The comment of the game becoming more like an action game is almost dead on. By removing class depth, you are left with.. an action game, where there is an absolute way to do something. Yes, prior to this change, there was an absolute or optimal way to build your character, but you had the option to NOT build the raid level character. Not all of us raid, but now we are told you have to build your character the same. The guy who made the reference to the choice for a ret paladin on which speed buff to get is a great example. We are we choosing WHICH buff to get, instead of DO you even WANT a speed buff... That's whats wrong. We are all shoe horned into the same way to play, regardless of which way WE want to play.
Again.. it's fine, I'm sure some will come try it out. I'm not going to make a grand prediction of THIS WILL END THE GAME.. With the opening of the chineese market, it will bring a lot of money in.
Oh, and the itemization of WoW now (no relic/wand/bow slot).. I really have no problems with this, except for the being disarmed on my hunter, now do I get disarmed and will then be forced to melee barehanded, or has the disarm ability been removed?
Currently playing Real Life..
For all your stalking needs..http://www.plurk.com/Random_
Oh yes, you are right, there were some classes which could do more builds, but usualy there was one which was "best" and wanted. But I sadly did't play WoW at vanilla, just BC for a while and mostly in Wotlk which was horrible, at least I hated end game. Leveling was fun. I liked my priest. But not many people wanted pvp heal in dungeon, or dps priest, so I had to respec for pve heal talent build. I miss healing and true support class in GW 2. Felt in love with support till Lineage 2 and my prophet and swordsinger. :P
Originally posted by GeezerGamer I'm leveling a monk. I broke down and bout the dam thing if for nothing than to kill a month. Frankly, I think the OP is going a bit overboard. Yes, he has some legitimate criticism. But in the end, I think WoW just saved everyone the time it takes to go over to Elitist Jerks, copy the build and plug it in talent for talent, half the time without even thinking about the reasoning. Yep, EJ figured it out, good enough for me. Now just give me my rotation macros. Because that's all it really was. You either had a cookie cutter spec, or you were kicked from teams. Yeah, I used to love theory crafting and being in control over my talent choices and rotations and such, but really, did you ever really have it? No. A lot of what OP is complaining about isn't new. It's how WoW has always been played. Blizz just took it away from the stupid people. But then again, that's all you can really expect from this game. I think I'll get my money's worth, But I doubt I'll have the sub for more than the single month
What server you on Geez?
I am going to break down and buy this damn thing as well- I have not played since WOTLK came out (bought it but was not happy and hated Death Kniights)- If I have to play a damn theme park (since that seems to be the only things being made decently) it might as well be WOW. =/
Anyhow I ask because based on your posts you seem like someone who has similar tastes and feelings like myself. I was on Lightninghoof (pretty sure that was the servers name) and am going to be resubbing here this evening.
I'm a unique and beautiful snowflake.
I think that pretty much nails it on the head. Blizz is basically responding to what the community was already doing. Blizz is funneling people towards builds that won't get you kicked from teams.
That said, I still think there will be "optimal" or preferred builds teams will want.
Current: NonePlayed: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WARTried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, WakfuFuture: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
Originally posted by Mike-McQueen Couldn't play this even if I got it for free.
I think you summed up my own feelings for the last few years regarding WOW.
Problem is, since leaving WOW nothing has "grabbed me" for very long and I have pissed a ton of money away on things which were very sub par. I hate Theme Parks to begin with but right now there isnt anything being well made outside of them parks (IMHO) and I am bored =/
So... If you cant beat em'- Join 'em lolz
Originally posted by stringboi I agree somewhat...but I think they did away with a system that just wasnt the best anyway...at least not anymore. I know not all, but a majority of the dedicated players went for the best build for the spec and it was basically a cookie cutter model anyway. Yah you could change a few talents here and there, but the were pretty much meaningless anyway. I dont see the big deal unless you were really into experimenting and it made a huge difference to your playstyle, which I dont think it did....just my view. Yah its different, but look where we started, it was slowly heading to this anyway.
I think the main issue I have with the changes concern the timing and mixed messages Blizzard has sent.
Up until MoP players who weren't into Raiding or PvP complained at how little "Endgame" content there was for them. Blizzard responded by adding Scenarios and 50 Daily Quests from a pool of 300.
So now that they have finally added content for "non-optimal" players... they take away the ability for anybody to create soloing or hybrid specs.
I think the changes are far better for balancing the Raiding and PvP portions of the game and will have little-to-no impact on how people play there. For the others... this kinda sucks.
The funny thing is that I actually liked the idea of the talent trees in WoW...being that you had the option to play one class in a multitude of different ways based on how you specced. And there was an element of exploration and discovery where it was exciting when you found a spec that really worked well.
The problem was that a few "optimal" builds emerged, and you basically were railroaded into one of the optimal builds. This reduced potentially thousands of talent combinations to like...3 viable ones. Now I'm not saying that every talent combo should be viable or optimal...it would just be nice if there were more viable options than there wound up being.
I haven't played MoP, but from what you guys are saying, it sounds like Blizzard just said "F it" to the problem of trying to make several talent builds viable and dumbed everything down to the point where you can ONLY select the optimal builds...yeah not very fun in my book.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Originally posted by Parasitenoir Yeah but then I ask you this. How many builds did you play that wernt - researched and spec'd as cookie cutter or for top DPS in PVE or PVP. I mean before yes you had more stuff to click on, but even then everyone was just running the same builds. TO maximize dps that was all. People were not playing it as an RPG, people just min/max because of the competitive edge that wow gives with world first raids and the RBGS and Arena. Now with the new talents, you do not have to worry about the Min/Maxing aspect of the game. You can with gems i guess but that is also up to the player. Now with the abilites everyone can be a little different and not worry about min/max but what 6 abiliites best suit my playstyel and let me do what I want to do. Also the hunter thing - that does suck - u cant have melee weaps and a bow ne more. Really lame.
im happy they got rid of melee wep's....i used to see some really really sad hunter's that would actually melee instead of using their bow....now they have no choice but a bigger problem ive seen now is that 90% of hunters in dungeons will keep "growl" turned on for their pets...and no matter how much me (when im tanking) or the tank (when im healing/dps'ing) ask they never turn it off...theres a reason they got the nickname huntard lol xD
There have been many changes over the years. Pretty much everyone of them has simplified and dumbed down the game. I really enjoyed the game a few years back and I quit because some of the changes they made back then changed the game enough for me to leave.
I really enjoyed the class quest's. I enjoyed getting keyed for dungeons and raids. I enjoyed getting spanked in the original Scholomance. I loved the ideaI of having to visit the forge in Lower Blackrock to forge dark iron. To visit the alchemy lab in Scholomance. All this attention to detail just made an awesome and adventuresome game for me. It's all a matter of taste for what we enjoy and dont enjoy.
I hope that one day someone will make an MMORPG that gives me that kind of "magic" that WoW gave to me back then. If someone ever does I hope they expand on what makes their game special and not dumb it down.
World of Warcraft for better or worse is not the same game that it used to be.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Originally posted by Mike-McQueen Wouldn't play this even if I got it for free.
Oh man, and here I was about to pay for the game and all expansions and a year sub for you. Oh well...darn.
Originally posted by Creslin321 Originally posted by Tardcore Originally posted by WhiteLantern Originally posted by Random_mage Thats the point.. The 6 abilities. Classes that did multiply things all melded to one. Class distimction.. Gone
When I subbed to Rift the 1st time. It was because of the Soul System. I read it and thought. Nice, I can build a character to fit any play style I want. And for the 1st 49 levels, It was, I was thrilled. I could experiment not just with optimizing my build but altering entire builds altogether. Yeah, then the level 50 cookie cutter specs came out. That actually was a game breaker for me, I left the game. I eventually came back because there was nothing better and ultimately found a reason to enjoy the game beyond builds. But in the end, as complicated a build system as Rift has, in the end, it's no better than what MoP currently offers.