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Themeparks, like Sandboxes, are actually a "Niche"....

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  • UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf  

     

    That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

    That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

    If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

     

    What YOU like does not define a market. You can love sandboxes and love to play EvE and Darkfall, but that does not change that by a massive majority the main market of MMOs right now is theme park.

    It's not about what I like, it's about profitability.

    Themepark MMOs, for the last 8 years, have been a one way ticket into financial failure. Meanwhile, sandbox MMOs have been the only MMOs in the last 8 years to steadily grow over time.

     Only one subscription based sandbox has grown, and that is EVE.  UO, who knows, but it sure isn't gaining subs.  MO and DF both have steadilly lost subs sinse their release, that's a fact. 

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    Niche (nich): "a distinct segment of a market."

     
     
     
     

     

    That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

    That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

    If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

    Since when is Darkfall growing?

    Since over the course of 3 years they've opened a second server, hired 30 more devs (more than doubling AV's staff) moved into a larger office building, and are relaunching an overhaul of the game for free?

    You don't do that when you're bleeding money.

     Not of that had anything to do with the game growing.  Thanks for demonstrating you have no idea how the business world works. The new server wasn't opened because the EU one ran out of room, it opened because NA players needed a server closer to them. Wrong. There were almost daily posts by people who said they werent going to buy the game until an NA server came out. Meanwhile the EU server had a long queue to get into it.

    The relaunch was directly related to the fact that the DF needed to many fixes to make it feasible to just patch and make an expansion, and so that they could attempt to draw in more players with a better game.  And you think a game that wasn't a success would have the money to pull that off in 2 years? Tasos even said as much. 

    Nice spin though, but your wrong. Learn to spell bud.

    So how do you explain the free overhaul? Or the 30 new developers? If Darkfall never grew, how did they afford the new office? The relaunch?

    Your story doesn't add up. Mine does.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf  

     

    That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

    That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

    If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

     

    What YOU like does not define a market. You can love sandboxes and love to play EvE and Darkfall, but that does not change that by a massive majority the main market of MMOs right now is theme park.

    It's not about what I like, it's about profitability.

    Themepark MMOs, for the last 8 years, have been a one way ticket into financial failure. Meanwhile, sandbox MMOs have been the only MMOs in the last 8 years to steadily grow over time.

     Only one subscription based sandbox has grown, and that is EVE.  UO, who knows, but it sure isn't gaining subs.  MO and DF both have steadilly lost subs sinse their release, that's a fact. 

    MO has because it's a joke. Darkfall has not. It has flucuated but has overall gone up.

  • UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    Niche (nich): "a distinct segment of a market."

     
     
     
     

     

    That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

    That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

    If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

    Since when is Darkfall growing?

    Since over the course of 3 years they've opened a second server, hired 30 more devs (more than doubling AV's staff) moved into a larger office building, and are relaunching an overhaul of the game for free?

    You don't do that when you're bleeding money.

     Not of that had anything to do with the game growing.  Thanks for demonstrating you have no idea how the business world works. The new server wasn't opened because the EU one ran out of room, it opened because NA players needed a server closer to them. Wrong. There were almost daily posts by people who said they werent going to buy the game until an NA server came out. Meanwhile the EU server had a long queue to get into it.

    The relaunch was directly related to the fact that the DF needed to many fixes to make it feasible to just patch and make an expansion, and so that they could attempt to draw in more players with a better game.  And you think a game that wasn't a success would have the money to pull that off in 2 years? Tasos even said as much. 

    Nice spin though, but your wrong. Learn to spell bud.

    So how do you explain the free overhaul? Or the 30 new developers? If Darkfall never grew, how did they afford the new office? The relaunch?

    Your story doesn't add up. Mine does.

     I only ran a succesfull small business for over a decade, and at an age when most guys are still trying to figure out how to talk to women.  I'm pretty sure I know EXACTLY how business works from the ground up.

    No your story doesn't add up because the guy in charge of the game has said the complete opposite of what you're saying.

    All of AV's money is got through defense contracts with Greece, learn a little bit about the company your cheerleading.    

  • SneakyRussianSneakyRussian ?????, SCPosts: 54Member
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    Niche (nich): "a distinct segment of a market."

     
     
     
     

     

    That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

    That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

    If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

    Since when is Darkfall growing?

    Since over the course of 3 years they've opened a second server, hired 30 more devs (more than doubling AV's staff) moved into a larger office building, and are relaunching an overhaul of the game for free?

    You don't do that when you're bleeding money.

     Not of that had anything to do with the game growing.  Thanks for demonstrating you have no idea how the business world works. The new server wasn't opened because the EU one ran out of room, it opened because NA players needed a server closer to them. Wrong. There were almost daily posts by people who said they werent going to buy the game until an NA server came out. Meanwhile the EU server had a long queue to get into it.

    The relaunch was directly related to the fact that the DF needed to many fixes to make it feasible to just patch and make an expansion, and so that they could attempt to draw in more players with a better game.  And you think a game that wasn't a success would have the money to pull that off in 2 years? Tasos even said as much. 

    Nice spin though, but your wrong. Learn to spell bud.

    So how do you explain the free overhaul? Or the 30 new developers? If Darkfall never grew, how did they afford the new office? The relaunch?

    Your story doesn't add up. Mine does.

     I only ran a succesfull small business for over a decade, and at an age when most guys are still trying to figure out how to talk to women.  I'm pretty sure I know EXACTLY how business works from the ground up.

    No your story doesn't add up because the guy in charge of the game has said the complete opposite of what you're saying.

    All of AV's money is got through defense contracts with Greece, learn a little bit about the company your cheerleading.    

    @Uhwop....DavisFlight's logic is fairly straight forward.

     

    What about your "experience" of running your own small business leads you to believe AV hasn't grown if they've hired 30 more developers etc etc?

  • AdamTMAdamTM Frankfurt Am MainPosts: 1,376Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    Niche (nich): "a distinct segment of a market."

     
     
     
     

     

    That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

    That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

    If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

    Since when is Darkfall growing?

    Since over the course of 3 years they've opened a second server, hired 30 more devs (more than doubling AV's staff) moved into a larger office building, and are relaunching an overhaul of the game for free?

    You don't do that when you're bleeding money.

    Eve is growing by 50k subs every 6 month in a linear fashion since its launch. It has currently ~350k subs (2012).

    At that rate, it will reach notability (2M subs, ~10% of the market) in 2028, when I can probably buy a real spaceship.

    Afaik, Darkfall has ~10k subs tops.

    Growing, maybe, significant any time soon? nope.

    Even if they would manage to double their subs every 3 years, they still wouldn't reach notability by the time everyone of us is dead.

    Steadily growing isn't doing them any good if there is a peak like WoW experienced in 2011.

    We can now say with confidence that the market for "classic" or "traditional" MMOs (both DF and WoW fall into this category) is roughly 22 Million (source: MMODATA.net), there just isn't more fresh subscriptions to be had, and the competition for subs is on.

    350k subs just isn't a large part of the cake. Even if you take all the major sandboxes together (EVE, Perpetuum, DF, MO, DS etc.) you get not more than maybe 500k.

    Since the competition is already been going on for a while and the growth of sanbox is essentially glacial, I don't see this as a large market to be tapped anytime soon.

    Also please don't forget that operating costs of MMOs don't scale as well as your revenue.

    image
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
     

    So how do you explain the free overhaul? Or the 30 new developers? If Darkfall never grew, how did they afford the new office? The relaunch?

    Your story doesn't add up. Mine does.

    They convinced some investors to throw money at them?

    Stranger things have happen. Alganon has an expansion coming too. How do you explain THAT?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    Themepark MMOs, for the last 8 years, have been a one way ticket into financial failure. Meanwhile, sandbox MMOs have been the only MMOs in the last 8 years to steadily grow over time.

    really?

    DDO is putting out a new expansion.

    LOTRO is still running.

    DCUO is adding content.

    wait .. wow just released an expansion.

    What financial failure?

  • UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SneakyRussian
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    Niche (nich): "a distinct segment of a market."

     
     
     
     

     

    That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

    That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

    If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

    Since when is Darkfall growing?

    Since over the course of 3 years they've opened a second server, hired 30 more devs (more than doubling AV's staff) moved into a larger office building, and are relaunching an overhaul of the game for free?

    You don't do that when you're bleeding money.

     Not of that had anything to do with the game growing.  Thanks for demonstrating you have no idea how the business world works. The new server wasn't opened because the EU one ran out of room, it opened because NA players needed a server closer to them. Wrong. There were almost daily posts by people who said they werent going to buy the game until an NA server came out. Meanwhile the EU server had a long queue to get into it.

    The relaunch was directly related to the fact that the DF needed to many fixes to make it feasible to just patch and make an expansion, and so that they could attempt to draw in more players with a better game.  And you think a game that wasn't a success would have the money to pull that off in 2 years? Tasos even said as much. 

    Nice spin though, but your wrong. Learn to spell bud.

    So how do you explain the free overhaul? Or the 30 new developers? If Darkfall never grew, how did they afford the new office? The relaunch?

    Your story doesn't add up. Mine does.

     I only ran a succesfull small business for over a decade, and at an age when most guys are still trying to figure out how to talk to women.  I'm pretty sure I know EXACTLY how business works from the ground up.

    No your story doesn't add up because the guy in charge of the game has said the complete opposite of what you're saying.

    All of AV's money is got through defense contracts with Greece, learn a little bit about the company your cheerleading.    

    @Uhwop....DavisFlight's logic is fairly straight forward.

     

    What about your "experience" of running your own small business leads you to believe AV hasn't grown if they've hired 30 more developers etc etc?

     AV has defense contracts with Greece, that's how they afford to do things with a game that isn't making them money.  No one redevelopes a game because it steadily grows, you do it when it's failing.  Their ability to do that has nothing at all to do with the game. 

    They do not just make games.   

  • AdamTMAdamTM Frankfurt Am MainPosts: 1,376Member
    Originally posted by SneakyRussian
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    Niche (nich): "a distinct segment of a market."

     
     
     
     

     

    That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

    That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

    If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

    Since when is Darkfall growing?

    Since over the course of 3 years they've opened a second server, hired 30 more devs (more than doubling AV's staff) moved into a larger office building, and are relaunching an overhaul of the game for free?

    You don't do that when you're bleeding money.

     Not of that had anything to do with the game growing.  Thanks for demonstrating you have no idea how the business world works. The new server wasn't opened because the EU one ran out of room, it opened because NA players needed a server closer to them. Wrong. There were almost daily posts by people who said they werent going to buy the game until an NA server came out. Meanwhile the EU server had a long queue to get into it.

    The relaunch was directly related to the fact that the DF needed to many fixes to make it feasible to just patch and make an expansion, and so that they could attempt to draw in more players with a better game.  And you think a game that wasn't a success would have the money to pull that off in 2 years? Tasos even said as much. 

    Nice spin though, but your wrong. Learn to spell bud.

    So how do you explain the free overhaul? Or the 30 new developers? If Darkfall never grew, how did they afford the new office? The relaunch?

    Your story doesn't add up. Mine does.

     I only ran a succesfull small business for over a decade, and at an age when most guys are still trying to figure out how to talk to women.  I'm pretty sure I know EXACTLY how business works from the ground up.

    No your story doesn't add up because the guy in charge of the game has said the complete opposite of what you're saying.

    All of AV's money is got through defense contracts with Greece, learn a little bit about the company your cheerleading.    

    @Uhwop....DavisFlight's logic is fairly straight forward.

     

    What about your "experience" of running your own small business leads you to believe AV hasn't grown if they've hired 30 more developers etc etc?

    I dont have experience of business and shit, but I've heard about this Project Copernicus and that little company called Big Huge Games that released their game, got shitty sales then started "expanding" their business to make an MMO.

    Afaik everyone knows how that ended.

    image
  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    Niche (nich): "a distinct segment of a market."

     
     
     
     

     

    That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

    That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

    If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

    Since when is Darkfall growing?

    Since over the course of 3 years they've opened a second server, hired 30 more devs (more than doubling AV's staff) moved into a larger office building, and are relaunching an overhaul of the game for free?

    You don't do that when you're bleeding money.

     Not of that had anything to do with the game growing.  Thanks for demonstrating you have no idea how the business world works. The new server wasn't opened because the EU one ran out of room, it opened because NA players needed a server closer to them. Wrong. There were almost daily posts by people who said they werent going to buy the game until an NA server came out. Meanwhile the EU server had a long queue to get into it.

    The relaunch was directly related to the fact that the DF needed to many fixes to make it feasible to just patch and make an expansion, and so that they could attempt to draw in more players with a better game.  And you think a game that wasn't a success would have the money to pull that off in 2 years? Tasos even said as much. 

    Nice spin though, but your wrong. Learn to spell bud.

    So how do you explain the free overhaul? Or the 30 new developers? If Darkfall never grew, how did they afford the new office? The relaunch?

    Your story doesn't add up. Mine does.

     I only ran a succesfull small business for over a decade, and at an age when most guys are still trying to figure out how to talk to women.  I'm pretty sure I know EXACTLY how business works from the ground up.

    No your story doesn't add up because the guy in charge of the game has said the complete opposite of what you're saying.

    All of AV's money is got through defense contracts with Greece, learn a little bit about the company your cheerleading.    

    Haha wow, nice fiction there bud. The deals with the Greek defense happened in 2006, 3 years before Darkfall launched. It was a one time thing. Do you honestly believe the Greek MILITARY funded the office, the game, and the new developers?

    You honestly believe that, your fantastical story that has NO EVIDENCE, against what the devs have said themselves?

     

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by SneakyRussian
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    Niche (nich): "a distinct segment of a market."

     
     
     
     

     

    That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

    That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

    If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

    Since when is Darkfall growing?

    Since over the course of 3 years they've opened a second server, hired 30 more devs (more than doubling AV's staff) moved into a larger office building, and are relaunching an overhaul of the game for free?

    You don't do that when you're bleeding money.

     Not of that had anything to do with the game growing.  Thanks for demonstrating you have no idea how the business world works. The new server wasn't opened because the EU one ran out of room, it opened because NA players needed a server closer to them. Wrong. There were almost daily posts by people who said they werent going to buy the game until an NA server came out. Meanwhile the EU server had a long queue to get into it.

    The relaunch was directly related to the fact that the DF needed to many fixes to make it feasible to just patch and make an expansion, and so that they could attempt to draw in more players with a better game.  And you think a game that wasn't a success would have the money to pull that off in 2 years? Tasos even said as much. 

    Nice spin though, but your wrong. Learn to spell bud.

    So how do you explain the free overhaul? Or the 30 new developers? If Darkfall never grew, how did they afford the new office? The relaunch?

    Your story doesn't add up. Mine does.

     I only ran a succesfull small business for over a decade, and at an age when most guys are still trying to figure out how to talk to women.  I'm pretty sure I know EXACTLY how business works from the ground up.

    No your story doesn't add up because the guy in charge of the game has said the complete opposite of what you're saying.

    All of AV's money is got through defense contracts with Greece, learn a little bit about the company your cheerleading.    

    @Uhwop....DavisFlight's logic is fairly straight forward.

     

    What about your "experience" of running your own small business leads you to believe AV hasn't grown if they've hired 30 more developers etc etc?

    I dont have experience of business and shit, but I've heard about this Project Copernicus and that little company called Big Huge Games that released their game, got shitty sales then started "expanding" their business to make an MMO.

    Afaik everyone knows how that ended.

    That's funny, because not only is that not even CLOSE to when happened with Project Copernicus, but it's not even remotely relavent to what's happening in Darkfall.

     

    37 Studios got funding from Rhode Island to make an MMO. They worked on the MMO for about 4-5 years. Another studio was developing a singleplayer RPG on their own. 37 Studios bought the singleplayer RPG studio and had them reskin the game so that it was in the same world/IP as the MMO they were making.

    The singleplayer game released and did really well.

    The MMO was delayed again. Finally, they just ran out of money.

     

    Darkfall on the other hand, was an MMO that was created on a budget of 1,000,000 dollars. They made a profit off of it so they reinvested it into their own company, to hire 30 more devs, get a bigger office, and overhaul the game. Now that they had the experience and staff to make the game how they always wanted, they could afford an overhaul. That could not have happened if Darkfall was a financial failure.

     

    Understand now?

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,853Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jaedor

    Why does every other gaming company look to WoW? Really simple: 9 million paying subscribers (at last press release). It doesn't matter if themeparks are a niche or not. What matters is cash flow and profitability.

    As long as WoW has the lion's share of paying subscribers for an mmo, every other game maker will want a piece

    of their action. You could substitute WoW for any other game that is equally successful.

     

    True and this idea was obviously shared by other developers and/or thier investors because we've gotten a handful of MMOs, similar to WoW's model, in the last year.

     

    What happened to them?

     

    Downsized and either swimming to F2P shores or struggling.  WoW's model only works for WoW.  Rift has successfully taken a small chunk or gained their own but each of the others (swtor, tera, tsw) have obviously not.  Not as much as they needed to get by anyway.  I'm not that they aren't good games it's just the model they follow draws a quick in and out reaction from a majority of the players.

     

    That's why I think, or agree with others of like mind, that the next wave of successful MMOs will be social sandbox titles that offer the full combat system you get now with tools to make you feel like part of the gameworld.  Does "successful" mean a gagillion subs? No but a good MMO should grow over time.

  • apocolusterapocoluster newport news, VAPosts: 1,321Member Uncommon

    People sure do like to argue  O.o

     

     

    *lol do i win teh obvious statement of the day*

    No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,310Member Uncommon

    I would bet Darkfall currently has less than 20k uses. It's number of subscribers IMO has not grown but shrunk tremendously over the years.

    It funded darkfall 2.0 by the few subscribers that are left, grants and by partnerships with InternetQ and Mgame.

    edit - and 38 studios spg kingdoms of amalur: reckoning did pretty bad.  Very polarized reviews.  Before the release Curt himself said this about their demo, "way more buggy than anything anyone should ever release," with wide-ranging glitches affecting even the simplest gameplay"

    Game sold less than 400,000 copies in U.S.

     

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    I would bet Darkfall currently has less than 20k uses. It's number of subscribers IMO has not grown but shrunk tremendously over the years.

    It funded darkfall 2.0 by the few subscribers that are left, grants and by partnerships with InternetQ and Mgame.

    edit - and 38 studios spg kingdoms of amalur: reckoning did pretty bad.  Very polarized reviews.  Before the release Curt himself said this about their demo, "way more buggy than anything anyone should ever release," with wide-ranging glitches affecting even the simplest gameplay"

    Game sold less than 400,000 copies in U.S.

     

    If Darkfall had shrunk over the years there wouldn't be a new server. And the "partnership" was just sealed this summer, so it offers no explanation on how the game or the new devs or new office was funded.

    As for Amalur, it sold about 2 million.

  • kaiser3282kaiser3282 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,690Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by SneakyRussian
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    Niche (nich): "a distinct segment of a market."

     
     
     
     

     

    That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

    That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

    If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

    Since when is Darkfall growing?

    Since over the course of 3 years they've opened a second server, hired 30 more devs (more than doubling AV's staff) moved into a larger office building, and are relaunching an overhaul of the game for free?

    You don't do that when you're bleeding money.

     Not of that had anything to do with the game growing.  Thanks for demonstrating you have no idea how the business world works. The new server wasn't opened because the EU one ran out of room, it opened because NA players needed a server closer to them. Wrong. There were almost daily posts by people who said they werent going to buy the game until an NA server came out. Meanwhile the EU server had a long queue to get into it.

    The relaunch was directly related to the fact that the DF needed to many fixes to make it feasible to just patch and make an expansion, and so that they could attempt to draw in more players with a better game.  And you think a game that wasn't a success would have the money to pull that off in 2 years? Tasos even said as much. 

    Nice spin though, but your wrong. Learn to spell bud.

    So how do you explain the free overhaul? Or the 30 new developers? If Darkfall never grew, how did they afford the new office? The relaunch?

    Your story doesn't add up. Mine does.

     I only ran a succesfull small business for over a decade, and at an age when most guys are still trying to figure out how to talk to women.  I'm pretty sure I know EXACTLY how business works from the ground up.

    No your story doesn't add up because the guy in charge of the game has said the complete opposite of what you're saying.

    All of AV's money is got through defense contracts with Greece, learn a little bit about the company your cheerleading.    

    @Uhwop....DavisFlight's logic is fairly straight forward.

     

    What about your "experience" of running your own small business leads you to believe AV hasn't grown if they've hired 30 more developers etc etc?

    I dont have experience of business and shit, but I've heard about this Project Copernicus and that little company called Big Huge Games that released their game, got shitty sales then started "expanding" their business to make an MMO.

    Afaik everyone knows how that ended.

    That's funny, because not only is that not even CLOSE to when happened with Project Copernicus, but it's not even remotely relavent to what's happening in Darkfall.

     

    37 Studios got funding from Rhode Island to make an MMO. They worked on the MMO for about 4-5 years. Another studio was developing a singleplayer RPG on their own. 37 Studios bought the singleplayer RPG studio and had them reskin the game so that it was in the same world/IP as the MMO they were making.

    The singleplayer game released and did really well.

    The MMO was delayed again. Finally, they just ran out of money.

     

    Darkfall on the other hand, was an MMO that was created on a budget of 1,000,000 dollars. They made a profit off of it so they reinvested it into their own company, to hire 30 more devs, get a bigger office, and overhaul the game. Now that they had the experience and staff to make the game how they always wanted, they could afford an overhaul. That could not have happened if Darkfall was a financial failure.

     

    Understand now?

    Its amusing watching this argument. Try reading things properly before going off on rants. Nobody said DF was a "financial failure", they simply said the game isnt growing. Which it isnt. In fact the population shrunk dramatically from the 1st year it was out. If you ever actually played the game, that much is obvious.

    If the game was doing well and growing, they wouldnt be completely overhauling the game while admitting they fell short on a lot of things with DF and have learned from those mistakes. They know DF isnt growing, and it wont grow without the overhaul theyre doing on it. If they were happy with it, and the game was growing, it wouldnt make much sense to redo the whole thing would it?

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    I would bet Darkfall currently has less than 20k uses. It's number of subscribers IMO has not grown but shrunk tremendously over the years.

    It funded darkfall 2.0 by the few subscribers that are left, grants and by partnerships with InternetQ and Mgame.

    edit - and 38 studios spg kingdoms of amalur: reckoning did pretty bad.  Very polarized reviews.  Before the release Curt himself said this about their demo, "way more buggy than anything anyone should ever release," with wide-ranging glitches affecting even the simplest gameplay"

    Game sold less than 400,000 copies in U.S.

     

    If Darkfall had shrunk over the years there wouldn't be a new server. And the "partnership" was just sealed this summer, so it offers no explanation on how the game or the new devs or new office was funded.

    As for Amalur, it sold about 2 million.

    For once Davies and I do agree, but facts will do that :). Amalur sold more like 2 million copies. Problem was they hoped for more and they also were planning on getting by with a second round of investment from Rhode Island. When RI delayed the extra funding and they didn't pull in enough from Amalur, they ran empty and shut down.

     

    It does highlight how much money you can get in investments (there were private investors and Curt put millions of his own in as well) by making something sound good and sound like it will pay back large dividends but in reality you can't make it come true.

     

     

    As far as a new server, you can't base growth on that. Many MMOs in the past have tried the new server to get an influx of players, a strategy that almost never works out well even though on forums you always hear the "If they did a new server I'd come back" lines. So a new server is not definitive proof of a growing population.

     

    You also can't use an expansion pack or new funding to show that a game is growing. There have been plenty of companies that got new funding a couple times and still shut down. That's the risk in venture capital, you have to guess if you think the company can really pull off what they're saying they can. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. There is also the infamous AC2 expansion where they announced the shut down very soon after.

     

     

    All of that is fairly moot anyway. Let's just go with that Darkfall is growing. It still has less than 50k subs which puts it as a tiny drop in the bucket of MMOs and does nothing to show that there is a great demand for FFA PvP or sandbox. It also still leaves sandbox game in the small minority of the MMO market.

  • GrumpyMel2GrumpyMel2 Catskills, NYPosts: 1,832Member

    Well I think it's fair to say what most of us would consider the traditional MMO (as opposed to something like Farmville) is pretty niche when compared to the number of people who go online for some form of entertainment. If that's not true now, it's only very recently that it has changed.

    I'd also say that it's somewhat evident that no matter how large the particular segment of that niche the traditional themepark occupies...it's having a very difficult time supporting the large number of products that are currently vying for that market.

    I also think that if new games want a decent chance to do well today, they are going to have to branch out and try to reach new markets or markets that are currently underserved by the existing offerings. For my book, one of those segments would include "sandboxes" which currently have very few quality offerings available. YMMV.

     

     

  • Johnie-MarzJohnie-Marz La Puente, CAPosts: 865Member
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    I would bet Darkfall currently has less than 20k uses. It's number of subscribers IMO has not grown but shrunk tremendously over the years.

    It funded darkfall 2.0 by the few subscribers that are left, grants and by partnerships with InternetQ and Mgame.

    edit - and 38 studios spg kingdoms of amalur: reckoning did pretty bad.  Very polarized reviews.  Before the release Curt himself said this about their demo, "way more buggy than anything anyone should ever release," with wide-ranging glitches affecting even the simplest gameplay"

    Game sold less than 400,000 copies in U.S.

     

    If Darkfall had shrunk over the years there wouldn't be a new server. And the "partnership" was just sealed this summer, so it offers no explanation on how the game or the new devs or new office was funded.

    As for Amalur, it sold about 2 million.

    For once Davies and I do agree, but facts will do that :). Amalur sold more like 2 million copies. Problem was they hoped for more and they also were planning on getting by with a second round of investment from Rhode Island. When RI delayed the extra funding and they didn't pull in enough from Amalur, they ran empty and shut down.

     

    It does highlight how much money you can get in investments (there were private investors and Curt put millions of his own in as well) by making something sound good and sound like it will pay back large dividends but in reality you can't make it come true.

     

     

    As far as a new server, you can't base growth on that. Many MMOs in the past have tried the new server to get an influx of players, a strategy that almost never works out well even though on forums you always hear the "If they did a new server I'd come back" lines. So a new server is not definitive proof of a growing population.

     

    You also can't use an expansion pack or new funding to show that a game is growing. There have been plenty of companies that got new funding a couple times and still shut down. That's the risk in venture capital, you have to guess if you think the company can really pull off what they're saying they can. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. There is also the infamous AC2 expansion where they announced the shut down very soon after.

     

     

    All of that is fairly moot anyway. Let's just go with that Darkfall is growing. It still has less than 50k subs which puts it as a tiny drop in the bucket of MMOs and does nothing to show that there is a great demand for FFA PvP or sandbox. It also still leaves sandbox game in the small minority of the MMO market.

    Well, yeah. The fact his example of a failed themepark MMO has more subscribers than his example of a successful Sandbox is why company's are making themeparks.  Even a failed themepark is more successfull than a Successful Sandbox.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,310Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    I would bet Darkfall currently has less than 20k uses. It's number of subscribers IMO has not grown but shrunk tremendously over the years.

    It funded darkfall 2.0 by the few subscribers that are left, grants and by partnerships with InternetQ and Mgame.

    edit - and 38 studios spg kingdoms of amalur: reckoning did pretty bad.  Very polarized reviews.  Before the release Curt himself said this about their demo, "way more buggy than anything anyone should ever release," with wide-ranging glitches affecting even the simplest gameplay"

    Game sold less than 400,000 copies in U.S.

     

    If Darkfall had shrunk over the years there wouldn't be a new server. And the "partnership" was just sealed this summer, so it offers no explanation on how the game or the new devs or new office was funded.

    As for Amalur, it sold about 2 million.

    Um no. Sorry.  The partnership with InternetQ basically gives Aventurine money for Darkfall. Aventurine then provides/improves InternetQ software and somehow helps with their mobile phone gaming. That is how they are funding, that and the partnership for Mgame and the few subscribers that are left.

    I've never seen a source that said Amalur sold anywhere close to 2 million.  If you have please post it.

    http://www.joystiq.com/2012/03/09/kingdoms-of-amalur-reckoning-sold-330-000-in-the-us-last-month/

    Darkfall has 2 servers Europe and NA.  They opened up the 2nd because they needed it.  They had 150K subsribers and did have 500,000 people trying.  Thats why they had a 2nd server, they needed it.

    Today there is signficantly less people playing.  They really don't need two servers today. 

    edit - I did find a link that said Amalur sold 1.22 million.  But needed 3 million to break even.

    http://www.joystiq.com/2012/05/24/kingdoms-of-amalur-reckoning-had-to-sell-3m-just-to-break-even/

    http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2012/05/28/kingdoms-of-alumar-dev-closed/1


     

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • PresbytierPresbytier Phoenix, AZPosts: 424Member
    Here is the bottom line: all data, like most things in life, is highly subjective. I know people who can make numbers dance for them. THe fact is if Themepark MMOs really where niche than Studios would not be spend as much as they do in order to make them. I agree that the market is saturated with stale copy-cat games, but to this is an issue with all genres of games right now. It is not a unique problem with MMOs. Studios are spending more than ever making just one game, so in turn they make fewer and stick to safer bets(like your yearly CoD or Assasins Creed games).

    "Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood
    "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by Johnie-Marz
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    I would bet Darkfall currently has less than 20k uses. It's number of subscribers IMO has not grown but shrunk tremendously over the years.

    It funded darkfall 2.0 by the few subscribers that are left, grants and by partnerships with InternetQ and Mgame.

    edit - and 38 studios spg kingdoms of amalur: reckoning did pretty bad.  Very polarized reviews.  Before the release Curt himself said this about their demo, "way more buggy than anything anyone should ever release," with wide-ranging glitches affecting even the simplest gameplay"

    Game sold less than 400,000 copies in U.S.

     

    If Darkfall had shrunk over the years there wouldn't be a new server. And the "partnership" was just sealed this summer, so it offers no explanation on how the game or the new devs or new office was funded.

    As for Amalur, it sold about 2 million.

    For once Davies and I do agree, but facts will do that :). Amalur sold more like 2 million copies. Problem was they hoped for more and they also were planning on getting by with a second round of investment from Rhode Island. When RI delayed the extra funding and they didn't pull in enough from Amalur, they ran empty and shut down.

     

    It does highlight how much money you can get in investments (there were private investors and Curt put millions of his own in as well) by making something sound good and sound like it will pay back large dividends but in reality you can't make it come true.

     

     

    As far as a new server, you can't base growth on that. Many MMOs in the past have tried the new server to get an influx of players, a strategy that almost never works out well even though on forums you always hear the "If they did a new server I'd come back" lines. So a new server is not definitive proof of a growing population.

     

    You also can't use an expansion pack or new funding to show that a game is growing. There have been plenty of companies that got new funding a couple times and still shut down. That's the risk in venture capital, you have to guess if you think the company can really pull off what they're saying they can. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. There is also the infamous AC2 expansion where they announced the shut down very soon after.

     

     

    All of that is fairly moot anyway. Let's just go with that Darkfall is growing. It still has less than 50k subs which puts it as a tiny drop in the bucket of MMOs and does nothing to show that there is a great demand for FFA PvP or sandbox. It also still leaves sandbox game in the small minority of the MMO market.

    Well, yeah. The fact his example of a failed themepark MMO has more subscribers than his example of a successful Sandbox is why company's are making themeparks.  Even a failed themepark is more successfull than a Successful Sandbox.

    That's just absolute lunacy. So you're telling me... that a game where 80% of the players drop off within a month, a game where half the development staff is fired, a game where two of the publishing partners go bankrupt, and game that HAS to stay open for the barest chance that the dev company might break even eventually....

    is a more successful, financially beneficial business goal/design, than a game that starts small with a realistic budget, and grows steadily over time?

     

    Yeah, I'm sure tons of devs choose to be bankrupt and unemployed over having a small group of dedicated fans.

     

    (and if you didn't get the hint, I was referencing AoC and SWTOR)

  • AdamTMAdamTM Frankfurt Am MainPosts: 1,376Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by SneakyRussian
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    Niche (nich): "a distinct segment of a market."

     
     
     
     

     

    That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

    That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

    If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

    Since when is Darkfall growing?

    Since over the course of 3 years they've opened a second server, hired 30 more devs (more than doubling AV's staff) moved into a larger office building, and are relaunching an overhaul of the game for free?

    You don't do that when you're bleeding money.

     Not of that had anything to do with the game growing.  Thanks for demonstrating you have no idea how the business world works. The new server wasn't opened because the EU one ran out of room, it opened because NA players needed a server closer to them. Wrong. There were almost daily posts by people who said they werent going to buy the game until an NA server came out. Meanwhile the EU server had a long queue to get into it.

    The relaunch was directly related to the fact that the DF needed to many fixes to make it feasible to just patch and make an expansion, and so that they could attempt to draw in more players with a better game.  And you think a game that wasn't a success would have the money to pull that off in 2 years? Tasos even said as much. 

    Nice spin though, but your wrong. Learn to spell bud.

    So how do you explain the free overhaul? Or the 30 new developers? If Darkfall never grew, how did they afford the new office? The relaunch?

    Your story doesn't add up. Mine does.

     I only ran a succesfull small business for over a decade, and at an age when most guys are still trying to figure out how to talk to women.  I'm pretty sure I know EXACTLY how business works from the ground up.

    No your story doesn't add up because the guy in charge of the game has said the complete opposite of what you're saying.

    All of AV's money is got through defense contracts with Greece, learn a little bit about the company your cheerleading.    

    @Uhwop....DavisFlight's logic is fairly straight forward.

     

    What about your "experience" of running your own small business leads you to believe AV hasn't grown if they've hired 30 more developers etc etc?

    I dont have experience of business and shit, but I've heard about this Project Copernicus and that little company called Big Huge Games that released their game, got shitty sales then started "expanding" their business to make an MMO.

    Afaik everyone knows how that ended.

    That's funny, because not only is that not even CLOSE to when happened with Project Copernicus, but it's not even remotely relavent to what's happening in Darkfall.

     

    37 Studios got funding from Rhode Island to make an MMO. They worked on the MMO for about 4-5 years. Another studio was developing a singleplayer RPG on their own. 37 Studios bought the singleplayer RPG studio and had them reskin the game so that it was in the same world/IP as the MMO they were making.

    The singleplayer game released and did really well.

    The MMO was delayed again. Finally, they just ran out of money.

     

    Darkfall on the other hand, was an MMO that was created on a budget of 1,000,000 dollars. They made a profit off of it so they reinvested it into their own company, to hire 30 more devs, get a bigger office, and overhaul the game. Now that they had the experience and staff to make the game how they always wanted, they could afford an overhaul. That could not have happened if Darkfall was a financial failure.

     

    Understand now?

    If DF really cost 1 Million USD to create, there is no way in hell they got their money back AND made a profit from it in 3 years and with ~10k subs (the current extremely generous estimate that is going around at the DF forum)

    Just none.

    It would barely cover the innitial investment + server and infrastructure upkeep, as well as paying developers, and support staff for 3 years.

    Staffing 10 people for 3 years at 2000$/month (a very low estimate) is 720,000$ alone (and according to LinkedIn there are ~60 people employed).

    Unless they are paying their staff in bannanas or ramen there is no way in hell this game is profitable in any sense of the word. The company is obviously getting funding from other sources than DF, stop imagining otherwise.

    image
  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by SneakyRussian
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    Niche (nich): "a distinct segment of a market."

     
     
     
     

     

    That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

    That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

    If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

    Since when is Darkfall growing?

    Since over the course of 3 years they've opened a second server, hired 30 more devs (more than doubling AV's staff) moved into a larger office building, and are relaunching an overhaul of the game for free?

    You don't do that when you're bleeding money.

     Not of that had anything to do with the game growing.  Thanks for demonstrating you have no idea how the business world works. The new server wasn't opened because the EU one ran out of room, it opened because NA players needed a server closer to them. Wrong. There were almost daily posts by people who said they werent going to buy the game until an NA server came out. Meanwhile the EU server had a long queue to get into it.

    The relaunch was directly related to the fact that the DF needed to many fixes to make it feasible to just patch and make an expansion, and so that they could attempt to draw in more players with a better game.  And you think a game that wasn't a success would have the money to pull that off in 2 years? Tasos even said as much. 

    Nice spin though, but your wrong. Learn to spell bud.

    So how do you explain the free overhaul? Or the 30 new developers? If Darkfall never grew, how did they afford the new office? The relaunch?

    Your story doesn't add up. Mine does.

     I only ran a succesfull small business for over a decade, and at an age when most guys are still trying to figure out how to talk to women.  I'm pretty sure I know EXACTLY how business works from the ground up.

    No your story doesn't add up because the guy in charge of the game has said the complete opposite of what you're saying.

    All of AV's money is got through defense contracts with Greece, learn a little bit about the company your cheerleading.    

    @Uhwop....DavisFlight's logic is fairly straight forward.

     

    What about your "experience" of running your own small business leads you to believe AV hasn't grown if they've hired 30 more developers etc etc?

    I dont have experience of business and shit, but I've heard about this Project Copernicus and that little company called Big Huge Games that released their game, got shitty sales then started "expanding" their business to make an MMO.

    Afaik everyone knows how that ended.

    That's funny, because not only is that not even CLOSE to when happened with Project Copernicus, but it's not even remotely relavent to what's happening in Darkfall.

     

    37 Studios got funding from Rhode Island to make an MMO. They worked on the MMO for about 4-5 years. Another studio was developing a singleplayer RPG on their own. 37 Studios bought the singleplayer RPG studio and had them reskin the game so that it was in the same world/IP as the MMO they were making.

    The singleplayer game released and did really well.

    The MMO was delayed again. Finally, they just ran out of money.

     

    Darkfall on the other hand, was an MMO that was created on a budget of 1,000,000 dollars. They made a profit off of it so they reinvested it into their own company, to hire 30 more devs, get a bigger office, and overhaul the game. Now that they had the experience and staff to make the game how they always wanted, they could afford an overhaul. That could not have happened if Darkfall was a financial failure.

     

    Understand now?

    If DF really cost 1 Million USD to create, there is no way in hell they got their money back AND made a profit from it in 3 years and with ~10k subs (the current extremely generous estimate that is going around at the DF forum)

    Just none.

    It would barely cover the innitial investment + server and infrastructure upkeep, as well as paying developers, and support staff for 3 years.

    Staffing 10 people for 3 years at 2000$/month (a very low estimate) is 720,000$ alone (and according to LinkedIn there are ~60 people employed).

    Unless they are paying their staff in bannanas or ramen there is no way in hell this game is profitable in any sense of the word. The company is obviously getting funding from other sources than DF, stop imagining otherwise.

    It never fails to amaze me how some people turn into total conspiracy kooks whenever Darkfall is mentioned. First they couldn't accept the fact that the game existed. Then they couldn't accept the fact that any game could manage 10k people on one server with no instances AND real time FPS cmobat. Now they can't accept that the game was profitable.

    First off, the game sold incredibly well, at 50 dollars a pop + monthly fee, on TWO servers, that at one point were full and had queues (which means that at least 30k people had to be on each server.

    Second, when Darkfall launched, they had 20 devs. They now have 50+. They got more developers from the PROFIT they made from Darkfall.

    People keep really close tabs on Aventurine, almost all their financial partnerships have been documented by the community. I've been involved with Darkfall for 5 years and I can tell you right now, they hired 30 new developers, moved into a bigger office, set up a second server, released 70 patches and 3 free expansions, and are about to release a total overhaul of the game. And now you're saying they not only did this without making any profit at all, but they managed to convince other publishers and partners to throw money at them?

    You're delusional. Simple fact, Darkfall AND Aventurine expanded, because they were successful to some degree.

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