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Themeparks, like Sandboxes, are actually a "Niche"....

FadedbombFadedbomb Aiken, SCPosts: 2,081Member

Niche (nich): "a distinct segment of a market."

 

It's been stated several times recently by large statistical institutions that the "suspected" MMO population is roughly around 50-60million total. Of which, World of Warcraft currently only controls roughly 17% of that market. Additionally, it has been shown that World of Warcraft's subscription numbers only are truly affected by OTHER Themepark titles. Where as MMOs that are not themeparks remain almost entirely unaffected save for the small portion that a "omni" gamers that essentially will play almost any product on the market given specific conditions (ie: price vs reward).
 
 
Why do people think WoW is the market itself? Is it simply the numbers alone that they aren't taking into account, or is it something more? I know people who simply won't play games like WoW just from principle alone after having had games such as EQ, DAOC, Shadowbane, UO, and SWG so I know why those specific members of the community act the way they do.
 
 
At the end of it, I'm just thankful most developers are waking up to the fact that Themeparks are no longer the "prime target" for everyone to shoot for.
 
From what I've seen it looks like GW2 might replace WoW in the next couple years as "The" Master Themepark. However, keep in mind that GW2, like WoW, is only responsible for the Themepark Niche. It doesn't mean by any stretch of the imagination that GW2 will threaten the release of future Sand-based titles.
 
 
Just some morning cents that were rattling around :P.
 
 
 

The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

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Comments

  • AdamTMAdamTM Frankfurt Am MainPosts: 1,376Member

    You can claim everything to be a "niche" if you chose your population right.

    Windows is a niche on the software market. On the OS market? Not so much.

     

    PS: id like some citation on the 60 million MMO players, because that seems inflated like x3 unless the "statistics" take Farmville or LoL as an MMO.

     

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  • FadedbombFadedbomb Aiken, SCPosts: 2,081Member
    Originally posted by AdamTM

    You can claim everything to be a "niche" if you chose your population right.

    Windows is a niche on the software market. On the OS market? Not so much.

     

    PS: id like some citation on the 60 million MMO players, because that seems inflated like x3 unless the "statistics" take Farmville or LoL as an MMO.

     

    Citation given, i'll try to find more that I was reading last month if you need. However, that one is fairly acceptable.

     

    Also, "Niche" does not mean "small" or "unpopular". A niche merely refers to something being a "piece" rather than the majority market holder.

     

    Windows isn't a Niche for OS, but for the Mobile Platform it most certainly is given that Windows owns more than 70% of the Operating System market.

    The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
    Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  • FadedbombFadedbomb Aiken, SCPosts: 2,081Member
    I also forgot to mention that said 50million are respective to the United States alone, and is not a reflection of WorldWide MMO audience.

    The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
    Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  • AdamTMAdamTM Frankfurt Am MainPosts: 1,376Member
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb
    Originally posted by AdamTM

    You can claim everything to be a "niche" if you chose your population right.

    Windows is a niche on the software market. On the OS market? Not so much.

     

    PS: id like some citation on the 60 million MMO players, because that seems inflated like x3 unless the "statistics" take Farmville or LoL as an MMO.

     

    Citation given, i'll try to find more that I was reading last month if you need. However, that one is fairly acceptable.

     

    Also, "Niche" does not mean "small" or "unpopular". A niche merely refers to something being a "piece" rather than the majority market holder.

     

    Windows isn't a Niche for OS, but for the Mobile Platform it most certainly is given that Windows owns more than 70% of the Operating System market.

    Read the source:

    "Many newcomers, drawn in by free-to-play games, are also signing up for triple A paid MMO games like Diablo 3"

    I can not take that seriously, because lumping D3 and WoW into the same market and/or category is just not applicable (else Blizz would create competition to their own game, which would be retardedly stupid).

    Unfortunately the source requires me to subscribe to see all their data and what games were used to collect on population, but if their classifying D3 as an MMO, they might as well Farmville, Minecraft or DayZ.

    This is completely unreliable bunk.

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  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    Windows isn't a Niche for OS

    It isn't?  They hold just a piece (albeit a very large piece) of the OS market, either phones or computers.

    Wasn't that the reasoning you were just trying to apply to theme parks?

    (see: Redefinition Game.  When your definition is expanded so broadly that in includes (basically) everything, it becomes semantically meaningless.)

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb
    Originally posted by AdamTM

    You can claim everything to be a "niche" if you chose your population right.

    Windows is a niche on the software market. On the OS market? Not so much.

     

    PS: id like some citation on the 60 million MMO players, because that seems inflated like x3 unless the "statistics" take Farmville or LoL as an MMO.

     

    Citation given, i'll try to find more that I was reading last month if you need. However, that one is fairly acceptable.

     

    Also, "Niche" does not mean "small" or "unpopular". A niche merely refers to something being a "piece" rather than the majority market holder.

     

    Windows isn't a Niche for OS, but for the Mobile Platform it most certainly is given that Windows owns more than 70% of the Operating System market.

    I prefer something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niche_market

    "... the subset of the market on which a specific product is focusing. So the market niche defines the specific product features aimed at satisfying specific market needs, as well as the price range, production quality and the demographics that is intended to impact. It is also a small market segment."

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  • AdamTMAdamTM Frankfurt Am MainPosts: 1,376Member
    Edit complete delete

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  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member

    I'm so tired of the 50-60 million US MMO gamers number which is highly flawed to begin with.

     

    First that means that 1 out of every 6 people in the U.S. play an MMO. Take out the babies/kids so young that they couldn't play any type of MMO or video game in general. Take out the elderly, almost none of which play any type of video game. Take out the poor who don't have internet access or even a computer and you end up with numbers where 1 out of every 3 or 2 people play MMOs. That alone should tell people how ridiculous the concept is.

     

    Now let's look at the fact that to make this number interesting they are very liberal with their terminology and include games like LoL into the MMO category.

     

    Finally, they base this off of ACCOUNTS and ESTIMATIONS. So they look at how many accounts are playing several popular MMOs (and games like LoL) and then apply estimation math to how many other MMOs there are. They don't account for how many people setup multiple accounts.

     

    So no, there are not 50-60 million US MMO gamers or even close to that.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

    I'm so tired of the 50-60 million US MMO gamers number which is highly flawed to begin with.

     

    First that means that 1 out of every 6 people in the U.S. play an MMO. Take out the babies/kids so young that they couldn't play any type of MMO or video game in general. Take out the elderly, almost none of which play any type of video game. Take out the poor who don't have internet access or even a computer and you end up with numbers where 1 out of every 3 or 2 people play MMOs. That alone should tell people how ridiculous the concept is.

     

    Now let's look at the fact that to make this number interesting they are very liberal with their terminology and include games like LoL into the MMO category.

     

    Finally, they base this off of ACCOUNTS and ESTIMATIONS. So they look at how many accounts are playing several popular MMOs (and games like LoL) and then apply estimation math to how many other MMOs there are. They don't account for how many people setup multiple accounts.

     

    So no, there are not 50-60 million US MMO gamers or even close to that.

    And i am so sick of people treating their uninformed OPINIONS as facts.

    http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/57989/MMO-Market-Report-Shows-30-Growth

    And I quote:

    "Around 47.5 million Americans play MMOs and although 90% of these play free-to-play games"

    "53% of males between 16 and 25 play MMO games versus 81% for consoles"

    "52% of MMO gamers are older than 25"

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Gosh .. does the OP know the concept of "common usage"? Not every single word is used by the strict dictionary defintion.

     

  • AusareAusare adamstown, MDPosts: 850Member
    Carebear does not mean someone that does not like PvE it was a cartoon bear.  Gay means happy.  Themepark is a play you go to not a game.  Sandbox is something you play in filled with...sand.  So what is your point.  The word like many words has been taken and used for a new meaning.  This thread and all like it complaining about how niche is now being used is pointless.
  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member

    I always found it funny when people say that hardcore MMOs or sandboxes or sandparks are "niche" and not worth the investment, but we've seen time and time again that themeparks aren't either.

    Old, hardcore MMOs managed not only to have higher subs for longer than just about any themepark game in the last 7 years, but that was back when the audience was much smaller and the competition was much more varied.

    So, next time someone says "It's not worth millions to make a hardcore game!" let's remember all the themepark failures that didn't even manage to top DAoC back in dial up days.

  • AusareAusare adamstown, MDPosts: 850Member
    What competition?
  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by Ausare
    What competition?

    The dozens of MMOs that were out at the time, but all getting enough press coverage to be in direct competition with one another. There were no smaller markets to go after. Every MMO that got released was directly pitted against the already established front runners, and the target audience group was smaller. Less subs to go around.

     

    And even still, those old MMOs managed to heavy healthy, varied games. Pre WoW, you had about 5 front runner MMOs, each vastly unique from one another, serving a different purpose.

    Now you have one front runner, and a bunch of crippled copy cats failing to even stick around longer than a month.

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    Niche (nich): "a distinct segment of a market."

     
     
     

    You picked quite possibly the worst dictionary defnition possible.

     

    World English Dictionary: ( modifier ) relating to or aimed at a small specialized group or market

     

    That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    Niche (nich): "a distinct segment of a market."

     
     
     
     

     

    That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

    That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

    If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

  • UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Gosh .. does the OP know the concept of "common usage"? Not every single word is used by the strict dictionary defintion.

     

    Literal definition in this case is a "specialized market". 

    When someone using the word correctly, like say the maker of a sandbox MMO or FFA/ Full loot PvP mmo refers to their game as niche, it's because it falls into the literal definition and not common usage.  The definition didn't change through common usage, that's not even what common usage means.  Common usage measn that a word is used frequently enough in place of another world that it takes on literal definition and becomes acceptable.  Irregardless would techinically mean to literally not not regard something, but through common use it actually means the same thing as regardless and can be used in place of regardless as an improper word. 

    It just so happens that a specialized market also tends to be a smaller market, but the word niche doesn't actually refer to a smaller market. 

    WoW isn't niche, and neither are themepark MMO's because neither are actually specialized.  You can't even make the case that a themepark is specializing in the MMO market because they're the standard model.  A standard model can not be specialized, by it's very nature of being standard or commonly used.

    MMO's can not be argued as being niche because they're actually common place product today.  A common place product by it's very nature is not specializing. 

    Archage will be a niche MMO for the fact that it'll exist within a market as a hybrid themepark/ sandbox mmo.  Even if it got 20 million players it would still be niche because it's specializing in a model that is not standard in the genre. 

    If the themepark/ sandbox hybrid model were to ever become the standard model in which the magority of MMO's are developed it would cease to be a niche; at that time themeparks would actually be considered a niche. 

  • AdamTMAdamTM Frankfurt Am MainPosts: 1,376Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    Niche (nich): "a distinct segment of a market."

     
     
     
     

     

    That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

    That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

    If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

    Since when is Darkfall growing?

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  • JaedorJaedor Denver, COPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon

    Why does every other gaming company look to WoW? Really simple: 9 million paying subscribers (at last press release). It doesn't matter if themeparks are a niche or not. What matters is cash flow and profitability.

    As long as WoW has the lion's share of paying subscribers for an mmo, every other game maker will want a piece of their action. You could substitute WoW for any other game that is equally successful.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    Niche (nich): "a distinct segment of a market."

     
     
     
     

     

    That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

    That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

    If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

    Since when is Darkfall growing?

    Since over the course of 3 years they've opened a second server, hired 30 more devs (more than doubling AV's staff) moved into a larger office building, and are relaunching an overhaul of the game for free?

    You don't do that when you're bleeding money.

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf  

     

    That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

    That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

    If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

    For starters by cutting out part of my post and leaving in the part I quoted you distorted my post immediately, nicely done.

     

    The success of a product or products does not define the market as a whole. 10 new theme parks could be released and all fail, but if 1) the majority of MMO gamers are in theme park MMOs (as they currently are and have been for years) then that is the main market and 2) If for every sandbox MMO that is released 10 theme park MMOs get released  then you can see where the market focus is in companies.

     

    Eve is a successful sandbox, but arguable the only successful one that exists and has existed for years. Darkfall has a tiny amount of players compared to any major MMO, it truly matters not in defining the market and is a great definition of niche market by being a FFA PvP world.

     

    What YOU like does not define a market. You can love sandboxes and love to play EvE and Darkfall, but that does not change that by a massive majority the main market of MMOs right now is theme park.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by Jaedor

    Why does every other gaming company look to WoW? Really simple: 9 million paying subscribers (at last press release). It doesn't matter if themeparks are a niche or not. What matters is cash flow and profitability.

    As long as WoW has the lion's share of paying subscribers for an mmo, every other game maker will want a piece of their action. You could substitute WoW for any other game that is equally successful.

    That doesn't change the fact that that's the more moronic business scheme of all time and has literally never worked in 8 years.

    Not only that, but those numbers are NOT accurate sub numbers. Not even close.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf  

     

    That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

    That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

    If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

     

    What YOU like does not define a market. You can love sandboxes and love to play EvE and Darkfall, but that does not change that by a massive majority the main market of MMOs right now is theme park.

    It's not about what I like, it's about profitability.

    Themepark MMOs, for the last 8 years, have been a one way ticket into financial failure. Meanwhile, sandbox MMOs have been the only MMOs in the last 8 years to steadily grow over time.

  • UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    Niche (nich): "a distinct segment of a market."

     
     
     
     

     

    That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

    That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

    If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

    Since when is Darkfall growing?

    Since over the course of 3 years they've opened a second server, hired 30 more devs (more than doubling AV's staff) moved into a larger office building, and are relaunching an overhaul of the game for free?

    You don't do that when you're bleeding money.

     Not of that had anything to do with the game growing.  The new server wasn't opened because the EU one ran out of room, it opened because NA players needed a server closer to them. 

    The relaunch was directly related to the fact that the DF needed to many fixes to make it feasible to just patch and make an expansion, and so that they could attempt to draw in more players with a better game.  Tasos even said as much. 

    Nice spin though, but your wrong. 

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf  

     

    That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

    That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

    If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

     

    What YOU like does not define a market. You can love sandboxes and love to play EvE and Darkfall, but that does not change that by a massive majority the main market of MMOs right now is theme park.

    It's not about what I like, it's about profitability.

    Themepark MMOs, for the last 8 years, have been a one way ticket into financial failure. Meanwhile, sandbox MMOs have been the only MMOs in the last 8 years to steadily grow over time.

    Your random picking of part of a post while leaving the whole post that it quoted in is fascinating.

     

    You need to look up what markets mean. You hate theme parks, we get it. But until there are more games/players involved in sandbox MMOs vs theme park MMOs then theme parks remain as the main market in MMOs. There is no arguing that, there is no opinion on that. That is how it works.

     

    You can also have the main market overcrowded, which is what many people feel the theme park MMO market is, but again it doesn't make it not the main market.

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