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[Column] General: If Guild Wars 2 Changed Everything, What’s Next?

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Comments

  • dageezadageeza london, KYPosts: 578Member
    Originally posted by Caldrin

    open world sandbox games end of...

     

     

    Themepark has been dead for me for ages.. GW2 did not bring anything new, sure it did thigns a tiny bit different but its the same old thing..

     

    Instead of quest hubs with numerous quests to do, you get a map with 10-20 heart quests.. oh wow how amazing and different is that.. instead of interacting with NPCs you now just get the quest when your near the heart.. wow thanks..

    So called dynamic events are not really that dynamic and are just basically heart quests that are not active al lthe time.. this has been done before...

    at the end of the day people like GW2 and fair enough im happy for them but to be it really didnt bring anything good to themepark mmorpgs..

     

     

    Anyway has i stated at the start..

     

    Openworld sandbox MMOs should be the future.. im not saying that they have to be full loot hardcore PVP games (some should be of course).. but its quite clear that themeparks are boring as hell and most people want somthing different..

    A sandbox is merely a themepark in which the devs have made the unfortunate mistake of giving the players the tools to create the rides instead of doing it themselves..

    So we get go mine 10000 ores for the empire/company/faction instead of  joe bob needs 10 ores, no thanks...

    As far as GW2 goes it is one of the best themeparks ever made and it is the real deal epic themepark but it needs many more big rides added with a little more fire and a bigger set of balls in their implimentation..

    Hopefully anet will finish the innovations they started with revolutionary additions..

     

    Playing GW2..

  • halflife25halflife25 Toronto, ONPosts: 737Member
    Originally posted by Eir_S
    I agree that even better dynamic events are the future, GW2 just opened the door a little wider.  Time is certainly a factor I haven't seen used in their implimentation yet.  Good ideas, Mark!  It's exciting to think about.  Quest hubs had their time in the sun.
     

    I really doubt that. As Trion's devs said that players love questing so NPC offering quest isn't going anywhere. In his words 'there is something ZEN about completing quests' and i agree with it.

    I don't want questign to be gone just like how i don't want every MMO to be littered with DE's. I want both. options and choices is better. I can think for myself and don't want game devs to save me.

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member

    "change everything: kinda depends on perspective.    Does not seem to me like GW2 'changed everything'.   

    In example AO, SWG and EvE seem much farther from themself than GW2 is from WoW. 

     

    This is not bashing of GW2, since I don't think that's bad thing.

     

  • grummzgrummz Aliso Viejo, CAPosts: 56Member

    I've heard the MMORPG audience is a tough crowd. I think you guys have every right to be angry that MMOs haven't changed much in the past 10 years. Glad to see people still want more, as it really makes me want to figure out what the "more" is as a game maker.

    - Mark Kern

  • InlorInlor MuensterPosts: 37Member

    I don't understand why so many players think of GW2s dynamic events as the evolution of the theme park genre? If I was playing a theme park MMO (and I am currently doing that with LotRO) I would certainly prefer quest hubs.

    In my eyes GW2s dynamic events are a big fail. You often stumble into an event without knowing whats going on, just trying to hit a few monsters to get at least a bronze medal. Without quest hubs there is absolutely no connection to the surrounding area or npcs.

    I still remember the different areas in WoW. I can still draw a pretty accurate map of - let's say - Westfall out of my head. I even remember some NPC names. In GW2 I can not even remember the starting grounds. I am rushing through different areas from event to event... it all feels sterile, lifeless and artificial. 

    GW2s dynamic events are just fast food action for ADD kids.

     

  • nhatnhat york, PAPosts: 113Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Caldrin

    open world sandbox games end of...

     

     

    Themepark has been dead for me for ages.. GW2 did not bring anything new, sure it did thigns a tiny bit different but its the same old thing..

     

    Instead of quest hubs with numerous quests to do, you get a map with 10-20 heart quests.. oh wow how amazing and different is that.. instead of interacting with NPCs you now just get the quest when your near the heart.. wow thanks..

    So called dynamic events are not really that dynamic and are just basically heart quests that are not active al lthe time.. this has been done before...

    at the end of the day people like GW2 and fair enough im happy for them but to be it really didnt bring anything good to themepark mmorpgs..

     

     

    Anyway has i stated at the start..

     

    Openworld sandbox MMOs should be the future.. im not saying that they have to be full loot hardcore PVP games (some should be of course).. but its quite clear that themeparks are boring as hell and most people want somthing different..

    Maybe for you but I don't like Openworld sandbox MMOs like Skyrim and the like. I actually like some design and some structure of where I'm going and heading. The only factor if it's quality or not.

    Just like how people like their Call of Duty, sports, etc, they won't radically change. This type of MMO is here to stay because it works and people like it.

  • ZekiahZekiah Aurora, COPosts: 2,499Member
    GW2 changed nothing, just more of the same.

    "Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  • grimgryphongrimgryphon Pacific Northwest, WAPosts: 682Member
    Originally posted by Sentime

    15 years later.  I'm still getting go kill 10 rats quests.

    Just because you change the numbers into a slide bar, and automatically give me the quest, it doesn't mean I'm not still getting more kill 10 rats quests.

    +1

    I think you hit the nail on the head.

    Optional PvP = No PvP
  • TardcoreTardcore MinskPosts: 2,325Member
    Originally posted by grummz

    I've heard the MMORPG audience is a tough crowd. I think you guys have every right to be angry that MMOs haven't changed much in the past 10 years. Glad to see people still want more, as it really makes me want to figure out what the "more" is as a game maker.

    - Mark Kern

    And I do not envy you in your task Sir, as trying to find out what we as players want from an MMO must be quite like the parable of the blind men describing an elephant.

    image

    "Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by dageeza
    Originally posted by Caldrin

    open world sandbox games end of...

     

     

    Themepark has been dead for me for ages.. GW2 did not bring anything new, sure it did thigns a tiny bit different but its the same old thing..

     

    Instead of quest hubs with numerous quests to do, you get a map with 10-20 heart quests.. oh wow how amazing and different is that.. instead of interacting with NPCs you now just get the quest when your near the heart.. wow thanks..

    So called dynamic events are not really that dynamic and are just basically heart quests that are not active al lthe time.. this has been done before...

    at the end of the day people like GW2 and fair enough im happy for them but to be it really didnt bring anything good to themepark mmorpgs..

     

     

    Anyway has i stated at the start..

     

    Openworld sandbox MMOs should be the future.. im not saying that they have to be full loot hardcore PVP games (some should be of course).. but its quite clear that themeparks are boring as hell and most people want somthing different..

    A sandbox is merely a themepark in which the devs have made the unfortunate mistake of giving the players the tools to create the rides instead of doing it themselves..

    So we get go mine 10000 ores for the empire/company/faction instead of  joe bob needs 10 ores, no thanks...

    As far as GW2 goes it is one of the best themeparks ever made and it is the real deal epic themepark but it needs many more big rides added with a little more fire and a bigger set of balls in their implimentation..

    Hopefully anet will finish the innovations they started with revolutionary additions..

     

    The diffence is that collecting the 10000 ore in a sandbox affects the world, the faction can then use that ore to make something which in turn affects the world, that change then affects something else, that is true dynamism, not a static event that runs on a loop.

  • VikingGamerVikingGamer Nowhere, TXPosts: 1,347Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Deerhunter71
    Originally posted by Eir_S
    I agree that even better dynamic events are the future, GW2 just opened the door a little wider.  Time is certainly a factor I haven't seen used in their implimentation yet.  Good ideas, Mark!  It's exciting to think about.  Quest hubs had their time in the sun.
     

    Huh?  How did they open the door wider?  I saw the exact same thing in Warhammer and then Rift.....

    Warhammer made the quest public and allowed people to jump in on the fly without grouping.

    Rift made the events spawn at random locations and time and increased the complexity of the stages.

    GW2 made it so what event is spawned depends on the state of the world at the time. If the centaurs control the camp then the event for centaurs attacking the camp cannot start, Instead the event for the humans taking back the camp starts. GW2 opened the door to events being reactive to the environment. It is not a huge or noticable shift but it is an important step towards making the whole experience more realistic.

    All die, so die well.

  • Agnostic42Agnostic42 That place, Overthere, WAPosts: 375Member

    Guild Wars 2 needs randomness. By now everything in that game is spread across some wiki page for anyone to read exactly everything that happens in game and where and what time.

     

    I like the idea of having no zones and very large dynamic events that take place in in many small places and increments to build to a giant whole at the end. This event could take days, even a week as long it continued to evolve, and then replayed when it finished. Only set its duration at an odd amount of fixed time, say 55 hours, with many variables during the events(I'll elaborate later) and do not tell the players so a wiki page would have a harder time informing anyone about what came next. Being able to immediately look up anything on a wiki removes immersion and attachment to character achievements, it does for me at least. if I have to look up the event, item or quest up, I feel less of an accomplishment after having beat it.

     

    I do realize 55 hours is a long time and would cause much gray hair to any developer. But take Guild Wars' Queendale as an example...

     

    You start your character in the out skirts of the city, what needs to happen? We are preparing for invasion, what does the city need? Stone, and wood to help prepare strengthen the walls and build ballista/catapults. Ok, off you go. If X ammount of stone is not recieved in Y amount of time, then Z event happens, if X stone is recieved, A event happens, if stone and wood are recieved in Y then B event happens and so forth. No two 55 hour events would be the same and they would have to be kept at a decent pace to warrant the players attention.

     

    During their forest gathering they discover "Hey, this place I was gathering from is having problems with raiders that hamper the gathering of the items, they need help." Insert heart quest.

     

    For me, this is the problem with Guild Wars, there is no grand scheme of things, once you are done with one area, you move on to the next until you are techinically done with the zone. Give players a reason to come back that doesn't feel like grinding. Remove the level system, that isn't needed, use skill points that require experience to gain, say 300 skill points per character class as a max. Making 10 or so classes to begin with would allow players some pretty wild custimization options.

     

    I could literally go on forever on this topic and how to at end-game make it more of a sandbox, once the themepark rides are done.

     

    P.S. I appologize for any grammar and spelling mistakes, still sipping my morning coffee

     
  • grimalgrimal Stamford, CTPosts: 2,873Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VikingGamer

    Warhammer made the quest public and allowed people to jump in on the fly without grouping.

    Rift made the events spawn at random locations and time and increased the complexity of the stages.

    GW2 made it so what event is spawned depends on the state of the world at the time. If the centaurs control the camp then the event for centaurs attacking the camp cannot start, Instead the event for the humans taking back the camp starts. GW2 opened the door to events being reactive to the environment. It is not a huge or noticable shift but it is an important step towards making the whole experience more realistic.

    Yeah, but in the end, if it doesn't feel all that different to me, it really isn't that big of a deal.

    When those public quests happened with TR, now that felt different.

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    Originally posted by RefMinor
    It didn't change everything, so the premise of your question is incorrect.

    Definetly this.

     

    1) GW2 got rid of quest hubs: Yes, it also pretty much got rid of quests too. So.... I'll take quest hubs over that. The game is at least 98% kill/gather/destroy tasks. You know, those exact things people complain about in other games but for some reason when ANet does it, it is revolutionary.

     

    2) GW2 is B2P: Yes, they successfully tricked players into paying $60 for a F2P game. Yet again, because it was ANet, it is revolutionary and will be the future of gaming. So the future is we'll all pay $60 for a F2P when currently you get F2P games for free to start with... good improvement.

     

    3) GW2 auto grouped everyone: Yup, and they killed all socialization by doing so. Good to know the future of gaming is an MMO where no one ever talks to each other. Sounds fun.

     

    4) GW2 did combos!!: Oh wait, other games already did those.

    5) GW2 did Dynamic Events!!: Oh wait, other games already did those.

    6) GW2 did WvW PvP!!: Not any different from RvR that has been done before only this time there is absolutely no point to it at all so it is boring as hell. Not a good improvement.

     

     

    If we base the future of gaming off of GW2... we're f&%ked.

  • Crusix221Crusix221 Richmond, VAPosts: 100Member
    Why not make the main character NPCs actual GMs and have there job to be create content and play the role of that character? Hire them full time as an "actor".
  • McGamerMcGamer Fairfield Bay, ARPosts: 1,012Member
    Gamers already know what it would take to change the genre, that is a moot point OP. The only problem holding back mmo's from evolving at this point is finding devs with publishers who have the spine to take the leap into uncharted territory. 
  • erictlewiserictlewis Cottondale, ALPosts: 3,026Member Uncommon

    Guild wars II changed nothing for a lot of folks like me, who would never touch another product made by  NCSOFT, yes ANET is NCSOFT, same folks who make aion and what not.

    So a lot of folks like me just steared away, and from what all I been reading about their horible customer service, I would think a lot of folks are very unhappy.

    Nothing has changed other than some folks wen t to play it, and then came back and camped the forums out and started griping.

    Everything else has remained status quo.

     

  • Grimlock426Grimlock426 Sacramento, CAPosts: 159Member
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by RefMinor
    It didn't change everything, so the premise of your question is incorrect.

    Definetly this.

     

    1) GW2 got rid of quest hubs: Yes, it also pretty much got rid of quests too. So.... I'll take quest hubs over that. The game is at least 98% kill/gather/destroy tasks. You know, those exact things people complain about in other games but for some reason when ANet does it, it is revolutionary.

     

    2) GW2 is B2P: Yes, they successfully tricked players into paying $60 for a F2P game. Yet again, because it was ANet, it is revolutionary and will be the future of gaming. So the future is we'll all pay $60 for a F2P when currently you get F2P games for free to start with... good improvement.

     

    3) GW2 auto grouped everyone: Yup, and they killed all socialization by doing so. Good to know the future of gaming is an MMO where no one ever talks to each other. Sounds fun.

     

    4) GW2 did combos!!: Oh wait, other games already did those.

    5) GW2 did Dynamic Events!!: Oh wait, other games already did those.

    6) GW2 did WvW PvP!!: Not any different from RvR that has been done before only this time there is absolutely no point to it at all so it is boring as hell. Not a good improvement.

     

     

    If we base the future of gaming off of GW2... we're f&%ked.

    I have to agree with most of this.  Instead I'd like to focus on what Anet really did that may or may not have been innovative and revolutionary, but at least was big steps in the right direction.

    1)  No more fighting over mobs and gathering items.- Having started playing WoW again with MoP, just highlighted for me how much nicer the GW2 system is.  It sucks to feel like you need to "beat" this person to that ore node, or 'tag' that monster first so you get credit.  I guess that type of competition is okay if you're playing a PvP game and the consequences for beating, or sometimes cheating, your way to a node first can be resolved by fighting, in a PvE game the GW2 way should be copied for all future games.

    2)  Auto-leveling - The freedom to play with your friends at any time regardless of your respective levels needs to be implemented in all games.  Nothing is worse then being level 60 when your friend first starts a game and having to wait on them to catch up, or to go help them but realize you get nothing of value for your character while you're helping your friend.

    Just as important to me is being able to go back to earlier zones and still reap rewards and benefits for seeing the content.  I've always thought it was a poor design choice to have zones all be broken down by levels such that when you reach max level you have no reason to go back to 80% of the zones in the game.  Going forward I'd love to see games expand on this aspect of GW2 to the point that, like in real life, monsters of all "level's or "power" or whatever, can migrate all over the place.  There is no reason that level 50 dragon can't fly 2 zones over and land in the level 10 zone if he wants to. 

    Maybe this can be tied into a phasing-type system like WoW has.  Maybe once you hit Max level lots of higher level monsters can populate any zone.

    I'll think of more later.

  • Grimlock426Grimlock426 Sacramento, CAPosts: 159Member
    Originally posted by Crusix221
    Why not make the main character NPCs actual GMs and have there job to be create content and play the role of that character? Hire them full time as an "actor".
     

    Now there is a solid idea. 

  • prpshrtprpshrt Clarksville, MDPosts: 258Member
    Reply to the title: No it did not change everything.
  • FadedbombFadedbomb Aiken, SCPosts: 2,081Member

    Why does Mr.Kern keep coming off as if he's trying to brown nose with ArenaNet? I've not seen a single shred of evidence pointing to any of his wild claims with regard to GW2?

     

    Is it just me :/?

    The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
    Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  • VikingGamerVikingGamer Nowhere, TXPosts: 1,347Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by halflife25
    Originally posted by Eir_S
    I agree that even better dynamic events are the future, GW2 just opened the door a little wider.  Time is certainly a factor I haven't seen used in their implimentation yet.  Good ideas, Mark!  It's exciting to think about.  Quest hubs had their time in the sun.
     

    I really doubt that. As Trion's devs said that players love questing so NPC offering quest isn't going anywhere. In his words 'there is something ZEN about completing quests' and i agree with it.

    I don't want questign to be gone just like how i don't want every MMO to be littered with DE's. I want both. options and choices is better. I can think for myself and don't want game devs to save me.

     

    I enjoy quests also but saying that quest hubs are done is not the same as saying quests are done. The hearts in GW2 are really just a form of locational quests that consolidate 2-5 tasks into one completion meter that also simply don't need you speak with the NPC in order to start. I would say that they are still essentially quests but with the delivery changed up a bit.

    The questions become, 1) will we be seeing individual tasks continue or will they be consolidated. 2) will these tasks need to be accepted before starting them. 3) will tasks disappear all together in favor of something more like DEs.

    1) consolidated tasks are very nice, especially if you like doing one thing more than another. Feed the cows or fight the bandits. I would rather fight but I can feed cows if no bandits can be found. It is also nice to not feel like you just need 1 more special bandit so now you need to weave between all the normal bandits wandering around because they wont give you quest credit. Long before GW2 I have imagined the farmer wanting to say, "Gah, just kill me some bandits. 10 would be great but more is even better."

    Which brings up the only thing I think GW2 did wrong with the hearts. Once you fill the meter magically the farmer could care less any more if you killed another bandit in your life. Yet they are still crawling all over his farm. If the farmer wanted you to kill bandits in the first place then surely he would appreciate you continuing to do so. I am sure Anet caps this because they don't want people to bot but again that strikes me as poisoning the fun well for everyone so that the bad guys cant do what they want.

    I would like to see games go more in the direction of go over here and help so and so as much as you want with diminishing returns after a certain point to encourage you to move on and help lots of different people but ultimately you decide how much you will help farmer Dan. Less artificial limitations on questing but there will still be questing.

    2) yeah it is nice to not have to accept the quest before hand. Although it is a bit unrealistic to come into an area and magically know what farmer Dan needs done.  What if Farmer Dan or one of his family were to come up to you and say "hey, I am glad to see you, would you be willing to do somethings for me?" and then have the quest automatically land in your log with the details. Meh, just a detail really. Wouldn't change anything. I think it works either way to have a group of quests or a consolidated quest land in your task list automatically when you get to a new place. I definitly like it when NPCs in GW2 direct you to particular events. What I don't like is when those events are finished before I get there.

    3) I don't think task, missions or little quests will disappear in favor of dynamic events. The Hearts in GW2 or hubs in other games are a good mechanic to draw you though a world and make sure you at least hit all the big locations. And I think that things will remain geographic only because it is too easy to go though an area at just the wrong time and not see any events pop up. I we place all content on a space/time maping then we run the real risk of our timing being bad. Further, even if you do see a good bit of the content, people will still only be seeing a part of what you worked on. I think spreading SOME content across a time dimension is good in that it makes things seem more realistic and it makes for great replayibility but that also makes it more expensive because you will have to have much more content over all since you have to take into account people missing a certain percentage of that content when they go though. I think this model will become more populate at the high end of MMOs but not necessarily over all. Possibly this will become what separates Buy or Sub to play from Free or Shop to play.

    All die, so die well.

  • UtukuMoonUtukuMoon ParisPosts: 1,066Member
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by RefMinor
    It didn't change everything, so the premise of your question is incorrect.

    Definetly this.

     

    1) GW2 got rid of quest hubs: Yes, it also pretty much got rid of quests too. So.... I'll take quest hubs over that. The game is at least 98% kill/gather/destroy tasks. You know, those exact things people complain about in other games but for some reason when ANet does it, it is revolutionary.

     

    2) GW2 is B2P: Yes, they successfully tricked players into paying $60 for a F2P game. Yet again, because it was ANet, it is revolutionary and will be the future of gaming. So the future is we'll all pay $60 for a F2P when currently you get F2P games for free to start with... good improvement.

     

    3) GW2 auto grouped everyone: Yup, and they killed all socialization by doing so. Good to know the future of gaming is an MMO where no one ever talks to each other. Sounds fun.

     

    4) GW2 did combos!!: Oh wait, other games already did those.

    5) GW2 did Dynamic Events!!: Oh wait, other games already did those.

    6) GW2 did WvW PvP!!: Not any different from RvR that has been done before only this time there is absolutely no point to it at all so it is boring as hell. Not a good improvement.

     

     

    If we base the future of gaming off of GW2... we're f&%ked.

    Could not of said it better myself,on top of that GW2 lacks depth.

  • CalmmoCalmmo LondonPosts: 52Member

    GW2 changed nothing and the lack of content past the leveling experience (but for the endless loop that is PVP) will make this game fall down very very fast imho.

    Nothing in particular wrong with the game but I was literally able to consume all of it contents within a matter of 2-3 weeks which subsequently made go back to my old mmo. Sure its a nice and long game, for the casual carebear gamer, but they will run out of content as well eventually with nothing to hold them and make them want to come back for more.

     
  • FadedbombFadedbomb Aiken, SCPosts: 2,081Member
    Originally posted by Sylvarii
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by RefMinor
    It didn't change everything, so the premise of your question is incorrect.

    Definetly this.

     

    1) GW2 got rid of quest hubs: Yes, it also pretty much got rid of quests too. So.... I'll take quest hubs over that. The game is at least 98% kill/gather/destroy tasks. You know, those exact things people complain about in other games but for some reason when ANet does it, it is revolutionary.

     

    2) GW2 is B2P: Yes, they successfully tricked players into paying $60 for a F2P game. Yet again, because it was ANet, it is revolutionary and will be the future of gaming. So the future is we'll all pay $60 for a F2P when currently you get F2P games for free to start with... good improvement.

     

    3) GW2 auto grouped everyone: Yup, and they killed all socialization by doing so. Good to know the future of gaming is an MMO where no one ever talks to each other. Sounds fun.

     

    4) GW2 did combos!!: Oh wait, other games already did those.

    5) GW2 did Dynamic Events!!: Oh wait, other games already did those.

    6) GW2 did WvW PvP!!: Not any different from RvR that has been done before only this time there is absolutely no point to it at all so it is boring as hell. Not a good improvement.

     

     

    If we base the future of gaming off of GW2... we're f&%ked.

    Could not of said it better myself,on top of that GW2 lacks depth.

    1) True

    2) Careful saying they "tricked" anyone, you'll might be called the T word.

    3) True

    4) True

    5) They weren't Dynamic, they were scripted chain events.

    6) Wasn't really RvR, more like a bastardized version.

     

    Conclusion: I disagree, I'm not seeing the massive move by the market towards the GW2 structure.

    The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
    Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

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