Since the early days of pen and paper rpgs were founded on progression.. wtf? Yeah we played D&D and the likes for fun, but we wanted to progress our character. We wanted levels, skills, and gear.... wtf? sorry.. it's late here.
pen and paper gave birth to mmorpgs. in case you did not know /roll, or RNG (Random Number Gernerator/tion) they come form 1d3s 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 1d12s......1d100s. Those are die, that's plural for dice just incase.
This is like asking fellow football players "Do you think we are trained to gain yards?"
sorry for the repost, but this thread is just amazing.
I am embarassed to admit it but yeah... I lost some of my motivation to play GW2 as soon as I hit 80... now dont get me wrong, I am still playing, exploring, pvping and will also create some alts but I am pretty sure I've seen the majority of the content and now when I hit 80 it doesn't feel the same even though I am still technically gaining skills.
Same happened with SWTOR... I will be more excited once they raise the cap...
Progression in those terms is a fact of life. You grow, you learn, you aspire to new, better things and ideas.
I guress there's also people who sit on the couch all day and watch TV and I suppose they need a game to play as well.
It's nice that the MMO market caters to everyone now that we have GW2.
Oh my, I do make a good point, even if I do say so myself
Yes, there are people that know what's important in life and those that stand in line waiting for a new iPhone... yep, life is full of those examples of people chasing the shiny. I'm not sure I'd say they're actually aspiring to anything though...
Yeah, that was a really messed up way of looking at things from nsign there - couch potatoes play games with out progression, but people who aspire to new and better things grind boars in MMOs.
Holy EQ flagellates, batman. The rationalization is strong in that one.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It's quite simple really. In traditional theme parks, the end justifies the means. You grind to get what you wanted. GW2 uses a different formula. The means justifies the end. In GW2, The means is the end. Just how successful this was is largely subjective. Many think it's very successful, many do not. I think the overall problem and GW2's biggest challenge in this are the limits of modern technology and exactly what we can do with AI. Many feel that no matter how fun the activity initially is, if you have to keep doing it over and over, it loses that fun factor. And there is no way to make an MMO yet that doesn't revolve around repetition. GW2 took it as far as it can go, but for many, it wasn't enough.
Originally posted by ShakyMo The irony being, those who are couch potatoes in real life are the ones who succeed most in wow / EQ type mmos.
Gw2 the mmo where people who work for a living don't have to play second fiddle to unemployed layabouts.
I am 100% convinced. GW2 players are the people who were upset that Gladiators had better gear, and people who feel that more time invested should mean nothing.
Yep I feel playing 12 hours a day shouldn't give you any extra advantages over the guy that plays 4 hours a day other than have.g more experience.
I would like mmos to bill for in game time rather than monthly sub, sp the majority aren't subsidizing the hardcore and possibly to give these guys a kick up the arse to go out and get a real job.
I don't know what gladiator is, was that some Roman mmo?
Originally posted by ShakyMo Yep I feel playing 12 hours a day shouldn't give you any extra advantages over the guy that plays 4 hours a day other than have.g more experience.
I would like mmos to bill for in game time rather than monthly sub, sp the majority aren't subsidizing the hardcore and possibly to give these guys a kick up the arse to go out and get a real job.
I don't know what gladiator is, was that some Roman mmo?
Envy... I don't like it when you work harder/longer and get more than me.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Yep I feel playing 12 hours a day shouldn't give you any extra advantages over the guy that plays 4 hours a day other than have.g more experience.I would like mmos to bill for in game time rather than monthly sub, sp the majority aren't subsidizing the hardcore and possibly to give these guys a kick up the arse to go out and get a real job.I don't know what gladiator is, was that some Roman mmo?
Not for nothing, But someone who achieved Gladiator, probably picked up a bit of skill along the way, where as the casual PVPer, has casual PVP skills. The Galdiator is committed to PVP where the casual PVPer isn't
Move them both to GW2. Who's gonna win? This "They only win because they have better gear" argument is only looking at one side.
1. Some people hate spending time on progressing their character because it takes them out of 'actually playing and having fun'
2. Some people hate if game have little, fast or no progression because progression is sizeable part of their fun and taking it out of the game makes game less fun,
That is just one of divides. There is possiblity of endlessly dividing into subcategories and creating new ones.
Argument about 'being trained into' is silly and could be reused for any type of game. In example "are MMO players trained into play for twitch..." or "are MMO players trained into play for rankings" or "are MMO players trained to play for cosmetic / visual progression" and so on and so on can be very long list.
Sorry but diffrent people are having fun from diffrent acitivies and fun is subjective thus any game can be ridiculed by anyone - just depend what author of 'ridiculing' is finding so called 'fun'.
Also if these gladiator people are so good, why do they also need a gear advantage. If your good, prove yourself on a game like gw2 where you don't have a gear crutch.
Also in most themeparks with gear progression pvp, you can get that gear by never winning, providing you play long enough. E.g. you could play 12 hours a day and never win and out gear the guy who plays 4 hours a day and always wins, because you get rewards just for taking part, faking, shoving a bot in there whatever.
Now if you were talking about vanilla wow where you were ranked and actually had to beat the better players to have the better gear, you would have a point.
Although gear barriers kill pvp in the long run and turn games into baby eating competitions, ruining the fun on both sides, which led me to quit war after the "expansion" it wasn't fun going around 1 shotting everyone in rr60 or lower gear on my rr90 geared character.
Being "Trained" for progression isn't the problem.
The problem is leveling in games has become so fast that you have way too much time between max level and the next expansion. The game has to give players something to do which leads to gear progression.
EVE is probably the only game that does it right. Even if you played for ten years you still wouldn't max out your skills. You are always progressing so you just play the game.
And this is basically the difference between character/player progression and gear progression. Unfortunately, it appears the masses want the new shiny items rather than any actual progression.
It's like the following - if I may...
Tom (playing Game X): Man, we finally UberMegaBoss.
Jerry (playing Game Y): Cool, what'd you get?
Tom: What?
Jerry: What'd you get for beating that boss?
Tom: Um, we beat the boss. It was hard, but we finally beat him.
Jerry: Yeah, but what kind of loot did you get?
Tom: Loot?
Jerry: Yeah, loot? What did you get?
Tom: Some gold, I guess.
Jerry: What? What epics did you get?
Tom: Epics?
Jerry: Yeah, for killing the boss. What epic loot did you get? How are you going to beat the next boss?
Tom: Didn't get any loot like that. Don't need anything like that to fight the next boss.
Jerry: What?
Tom: We just need to be better. We need to apply what we've learned so far, work hard as a team, and with practice we'll be able to take down whatever boss we face next.
Jerry: But - you need loot - you need epics. Where's the progression?
Tom: I just told you - we get better the more we play.
Jerry: I don't understand...
Tom: I'm seeing that....
It's like the threads where folks have had issues with the lack of the Trinity in a few recent games - the lack of gear progression would blow their minds...meh.
I still think CCP should have made a "Fantasy" EVE as well... in the past, I've called it Shadowbane 2.0... but oh well.
Well said sir.
It seems like there is a segment of gamers that may have forgotten what a game is.
Are MMO players trained to play for progression rather than for enjoyment?
Half of the MMO players in the world today got their MMO start in a single title.
What do you think?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Trained I think is the wrong word. Society and life in general has humanity looking for the "next best thing." In an online MMO you are free to be exactly you. What you say...how you handle yourself...the whole bit. So it really shows.
So you look into these games and realize what people really do and how they really act and you being to learn something.
In my mind the lack of "gear progression" in this game..the no "gold star at the end of the day" will make it fail in the long term. Some sort of character progression needs to happen, that or create a real real "fun" aspect to stay there. This game just doesn't have it yet. However, it still is a great game all around.
Was just talking about this with a friend last night. I'd say yes, mmo players have been trained for progression during the past 10 years. It has raised a "gaming generation" of players to expect linear progression and an endgame that includes raiding. And if those things are not included in an mmo today (or if they are not apparent), then the game is "fail".
If we want to see sandboxes, we will need to retrain mmo players on how to think for themselves; how to use their imaginations, how to generate their own content and how to create their own fun rather than accept what a developer hands to them.
Why can't it be that MMO games enjoy progressing? I know I do. I like seeing my character get stronger and better.
There's a difference between gear progression and character progression though.
My char earns some XP, improves his stats... my character has gotten stronger and better.
My char finds a shiny sword... my character has not gotten stronger nor better. He's got a new shiny sword. It may improve his stats, but without that sword - he's the same ol' character.
That gear provides such a bonus to stats...that it is a form of progression...is mind boggling to some.
Now doubt there are plenty that like that - that's fine. Not every game needs to be that way though. Some folks would like actual character progression...
Yes there is a bit of a difference (IMO not significant) between progression through gear and progression through stats. However in the the I my character is still that much better because of the gear or stats. People like progression thats what it comes down. They care less about how that progression comes and more about just are they getting stronger.
I started archery last year, started with a long bow, then moved to a recurve. The recurve provides more power with less weight. It was a progression. I have debated on getting a compound, signficantly more power, much less weight, better stabilizers and actual sights for varying distances. That would be gear progression and if I was interested in hunting I would probably go for it because it would improve my shots significantly. However between one day and the next I haven't improved, my gear has and as a result the results themselves are better.
I"m not really interested in the compound though, seems like cheating.
We just like progression.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
It has nothing to do with MMOs, games are about progression and winning.
That is why achievements are such a powerful tool to keep people playing, it gives them a direct tracker on how much they are progressing.
Even in a game like Second Life, you are progressing by exploring the world, increasing the number of friends, buying land, buying items to fill the land.
Every game is progression on some level. An MMO without levels would still have progression through either how many dungeons you've done, what gear you've gotten, how many things you've killed, how much you've explored etc.
Most players these days are trained to only care about progression. Sometimes a popular game comes out that is not based on progression. Minecraft and Second life come to mind. Few people actually want a MMO with zero progression.
Progression is not the real issue though. The real problem is power creep because it make the experience overall feel very disposable. That is why people will go through a game like SWTOR and quit in a month where in the past players would need years to see and do everything in SWG. Back in the day you were not given everything instantly and few players used the same progression. In the original EverQuest rare loot was actually rare and the Epics were actually Epic that took months to aquire. Modern MMOs pretty much give the player the whole thing up front which the content locusts just devour and move on the next MMO.
Being "Trained" for progression isn't the problem.
The problem is leveling in games has become so fast that you have way too much time between max level and the next expansion. The game has to give players something to do which leads to gear progression.
EVE is probably the only game that does it right. Even if you played for ten years you still wouldn't max out your skills. You are always progressing so you just play the game.
Not just Eve. Some older MMOs did it right too and is why many want some reiteration of them to come back. For me, it was FFXI and how it handled progression. It's changed now, as levels are really easy to get, but before they made all those changes, I could play that game for years and still never see everything or finish everything I wanted to and this was good.
What is with these loaded thread titles? Progression isn't a negative and if anything, it's the main reason I even play MMORPGs or sRPGs or games with similar mechanics. Not alone, sure, but without a sense of progression, I sure wouldn't be as drawn to the game. I can apply this to FPS, RTS, Racing etc.
I'm sure you have seen the term "Skinner box" thrown around on the forums here. I think the difference between the progression you say is not negative vs the subject of the thread is self motivation vs unintended psychological conditioning. At least I hope it was unintentional.
No. RPG's are about progression. Always have and hopefully always will be. Even when I was playing pen and paper RPG, the progression of your character was a central activity.
Originally posted by Yamota No. RPG's are about progression. Always have and hopefully always will be. Even when I was playing pen and paper RPG, the progression of your character was a central activity.
Was it? Maybe your DM was super easy on you then. When I played D&D our characters would die all the time and we would have to roll a new one. Pretty sure we played just to get together and have some good times.
Comments
OP cmon.
Since the early days of pen and paper rpgs were founded on progression.. wtf? Yeah we played D&D and the likes for fun, but we wanted to progress our character. We wanted levels, skills, and gear.... wtf? sorry.. it's late here.
pen and paper gave birth to mmorpgs. in case you did not know /roll, or RNG (Random Number Gernerator/tion) they come form 1d3s 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 1d12s......1d100s. Those are die, that's plural for dice just incase.
This is like asking fellow football players "Do you think we are trained to gain yards?"
sorry for the repost, but this thread is just amazing.
I am embarassed to admit it but yeah... I lost some of my motivation to play GW2 as soon as I hit 80... now dont get me wrong, I am still playing, exploring, pvping and will also create some alts but I am pretty sure I've seen the majority of the content and now when I hit 80 it doesn't feel the same even though I am still technically gaining skills.
Same happened with SWTOR... I will be more excited once they raise the cap...
Yeah, that was a really messed up way of looking at things from nsign there - couch potatoes play games with out progression, but people who aspire to new and better things grind boars in MMOs.
Holy EQ flagellates, batman. The rationalization is strong in that one.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Gw2 the mmo where people who work for a living don't have to play second fiddle to unemployed layabouts.
It's quite simple really. In traditional theme parks, the end justifies the means. You grind to get what you wanted. GW2 uses a different formula. The means justifies the end. In GW2, The means is the end. Just how successful this was is largely subjective. Many think it's very successful, many do not. I think the overall problem and GW2's biggest challenge in this are the limits of modern technology and exactly what we can do with AI. Many feel that no matter how fun the activity initially is, if you have to keep doing it over and over, it loses that fun factor. And there is no way to make an MMO yet that doesn't revolve around repetition. GW2 took it as far as it can go, but for many, it wasn't enough.
I am 100% convinced. GW2 players are the people who were upset that Gladiators had better gear, and people who feel that more time invested should mean nothing.
I would like mmos to bill for in game time rather than monthly sub, sp the majority aren't subsidizing the hardcore and possibly to give these guys a kick up the arse to go out and get a real job.
I don't know what gladiator is, was that some Roman mmo?
Envy... I don't like it when you work harder/longer and get more than me.
Not for nothing, But someone who achieved Gladiator, probably picked up a bit of skill along the way, where as the casual PVPer, has casual PVP skills.
The Galdiator is committed to PVP where the casual PVPer isn't
Move them both to GW2. Who's gonna win? This "They only win because they have better gear" argument is only looking at one side.
Everything depends what your 'fun' in game is.
Small example:
1. Some people hate spending time on progressing their character because it takes them out of 'actually playing and having fun'
2. Some people hate if game have little, fast or no progression because progression is sizeable part of their fun and taking it out of the game makes game less fun,
That is just one of divides. There is possiblity of endlessly dividing into subcategories and creating new ones.
Argument about 'being trained into' is silly and could be reused for any type of game. In example "are MMO players trained into play for twitch..." or "are MMO players trained into play for rankings" or "are MMO players trained to play for cosmetic / visual progression" and so on and so on can be very long list.
Sorry but diffrent people are having fun from diffrent acitivies and fun is subjective thus any game can be ridiculed by anyone - just depend what author of 'ridiculing' is finding so called 'fun'.
If so lol, no. I haven't played wow for 7 years, and I mostly pveed in it anyway because its pvp is shit.
These wow guys aren't hardcore anyway (neither are gw2 players). Hardcore pvpers are playing things like.
Sc2
Sf4
Cs
Tf2
Eve
Df
Etc..
Also in most themeparks with gear progression pvp, you can get that gear by never winning, providing you play long enough. E.g. you could play 12 hours a day and never win and out gear the guy who plays 4 hours a day and always wins, because you get rewards just for taking part, faking, shoving a bot in there whatever.
Now if you were talking about vanilla wow where you were ranked and actually had to beat the better players to have the better gear, you would have a point.
Although gear barriers kill pvp in the long run and turn games into baby eating competitions, ruining the fun on both sides, which led me to quit war after the "expansion" it wasn't fun going around 1 shotting everyone in rr60 or lower gear on my rr90 geared character.
Well said sir.
It seems like there is a segment of gamers that may have forgotten what a game is.
Can not believe you put Eve in that list. They are some of the worst PvP'ers. But if you are making a list of the best gankers then I give you an A.
Half of the MMO players in the world today got their MMO start in a single title.
What do you think?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Trained I think is the wrong word. Society and life in general has humanity looking for the "next best thing." In an online MMO you are free to be exactly you. What you say...how you handle yourself...the whole bit. So it really shows.
So you look into these games and realize what people really do and how they really act and you being to learn something.
In my mind the lack of "gear progression" in this game..the no "gold star at the end of the day" will make it fail in the long term. Some sort of character progression needs to happen, that or create a real real "fun" aspect to stay there. This game just doesn't have it yet. However, it still is a great game all around.
Was just talking about this with a friend last night. I'd say yes, mmo players have been trained for progression during the past 10 years. It has raised a "gaming generation" of players to expect linear progression and an endgame that includes raiding. And if those things are not included in an mmo today (or if they are not apparent), then the game is "fail".
If we want to see sandboxes, we will need to retrain mmo players on how to think for themselves; how to use their imaginations, how to generate their own content and how to create their own fun rather than accept what a developer hands to them.
Yes there is a bit of a difference (IMO not significant) between progression through gear and progression through stats. However in the the I my character is still that much better because of the gear or stats. People like progression thats what it comes down. They care less about how that progression comes and more about just are they getting stronger.
I started archery last year, started with a long bow, then moved to a recurve. The recurve provides more power with less weight. It was a progression. I have debated on getting a compound, signficantly more power, much less weight, better stabilizers and actual sights for varying distances. That would be gear progression and if I was interested in hunting I would probably go for it because it would improve my shots significantly. However between one day and the next I haven't improved, my gear has and as a result the results themselves are better.
I"m not really interested in the compound though, seems like cheating.
We just like progression.
It has nothing to do with MMOs, games are about progression and winning.
That is why achievements are such a powerful tool to keep people playing, it gives them a direct tracker on how much they are progressing.
Even in a game like Second Life, you are progressing by exploring the world, increasing the number of friends, buying land, buying items to fill the land.
Every game is progression on some level. An MMO without levels would still have progression through either how many dungeons you've done, what gear you've gotten, how many things you've killed, how much you've explored etc.
Most players these days are trained to only care about progression. Sometimes a popular game comes out that is not based on progression. Minecraft and Second life come to mind. Few people actually want a MMO with zero progression.
Progression is not the real issue though. The real problem is power creep because it make the experience overall feel very disposable. That is why people will go through a game like SWTOR and quit in a month where in the past players would need years to see and do everything in SWG. Back in the day you were not given everything instantly and few players used the same progression. In the original EverQuest rare loot was actually rare and the Epics were actually Epic that took months to aquire. Modern MMOs pretty much give the player the whole thing up front which the content locusts just devour and move on the next MMO.
I'm sure you have seen the term "Skinner box" thrown around on the forums here. I think the difference between the progression you say is not negative vs the subject of the thread is self motivation vs unintended psychological conditioning. At least I hope it was unintentional.
My theme song.
My gaming blog
Was it? Maybe your DM was super easy on you then. When I played D&D our characters would die all the time and we would have to roll a new one. Pretty sure we played just to get together and have some good times.
My theme song.
progression *is* enjoyment. They are not mutually exclusive.
I am playing BL2 now .. i enjoy shooting/killing stuff, and i enjoy leveling up becoming more powerful.