Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

The time to bring back Sandboxes IS NOW!

135

Comments

  • Ghost12Ghost12 Boston, MAPosts: 684Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Ghost12
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Quirhid
     

    Good reference, sandbox style gamers do seem to be wandering the wilderness for 40 years trying to find their next big title.

    Perhaps one day it will happen........

    I think there's a market for a new sandbox style MMORPG, but I can't agree that there's any real evidence that it will accomodate "millions upon millions" served.

    Unfortunately, if you are going to build a new MMORPG and ask someone to front you anywhere from $100M - 200M to create it, they're going to want some assurances that you know what you are doing and that there's evidence in the marketplace that reduces the risk of their investment.

    Right now, the only real examples to follow are standard theme park MMO's so that's why we keep getting so many variants of basically the same game released back in 2004 (or even earlier if we go back to EQ1)

    If a runaway hit in the sandbox space ever happens it's probably going to be a matter more of sh!t luck rather than by intelligent design.

     

     

    I sincerely believe that anyone that expects to have WoW's number of players is just delusional. WoW was the introduction to a new style of gaming and I doubt we will see one game gather as many players as WoW has.

     

    But who says a good sandbox cant gather 500,000?

     

    Anything is possible. And sad fact is - the MMO industry is extremely risky. Any entreprenuer knows that an investment is always going to be risky.

     

    The fact that standard themepark MMO's keep on underperforming tells me, as an investor, that they arent what they are cracked up to be. And I am not approaching this as a sandbox lover, I'm approaching this as an investor. As an investor, I would not invest in any themepark title as of this moment.

     

    I think with the performance of TOR, its pretty clear.

     

    Part of being an entrepreneur is not only examining the risks, but also taking them. Opening a business is always risky.

     

    There are always going to be risks. But right now, I would rather fund a sandbox MMO rather than a themepark any day of the week. It makes much more sense.

     

    @Kyleran: I see what you did there. image

    @Ghost12: Even if you think themeparks are underperforming, sandboxes are not the fallback solution. Themeparks losing customers does not mean more to sandboxes. This is faulty logic. If there are no good MMOs, people will play something else. There's plenty to choose from between single player and regular multiplayer fronts.

     

    So you're just going to ignore the actions of your customers?

     

    I work in business. In my business, we offer products to our customers. If our customers stop buying our product, that tells us that they might be unhappy with that product. If there is an alternative to that product - why not offer it? I might turn out to be an improvement.

     

    Heres the problem - sandboxes are not really being offered. They arent being given a chance.

     

    "If there are no good MMOs, people will play something else. "

     

    Now that is faulty logic. If there are no good MMOs, then those players will not play anymore MMOs (Or just stick to playing WoW) The "other games" do not factor into the equation here. We're talking about MMOs, not the entire game market.

  • FondelFondel HelsinkiPosts: 98Member
    Originally posted by Ghost12

    There is a saying; Only a fool does the same thing over and over again and expects different results.

     .....

    Totally agree with every word you said. I remember wondering the themeparkish WoW at its release. Why does everyone think it is so cool to play linear path with no freedom? Had few internet depates about the subject ending everyone calling me stupid. Here we are, still at the same point where we were 8 years ago. Maybe the release of Unohly Wars will change that. I hope so.

  • SlampigSlampig Chantilly, VAPosts: 2,376Member Uncommon

    "The whole argument of “sandbox is a small niche, it doesnt work, everyone loves themeparks” IS A LOAD OF BALONEY!"

     

    Show me the big powerhouse sandbox game that everyone is playing...oh, right...

    That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Ghost12
    Originally posted by Quirhid
     

     

    So you're just going to ignore the actions of your customers?

     

    I work in business. In my business, we offer products to our customers. If our customers stop buying our product, that tells us that they might be unhappy with that product. If there is an alternative to that product - why not offer it? I might turn out to be an improvement.

     

    Heres the problem - sandboxes are not really being offered. They arent being given a chance.

     

    "If there are no good MMOs, people will play something else. "

     

    Now that is faulty logic. If there are no good MMOs, then those players will not play anymore MMOs (Or just stick to playing WoW) The "other games" do not factor into the equation here. We're talking about MMOs, not the entire game market.

    Why do you still persist with the notion that people have to play some MMO all the time? They don't. They really don't. If there wouldn't be a satisfactory themepark out right now, it wouldn't make me turn to sandboxes, it would make me turn to non-MMOs instead. MMOs are games just like any other. They are not on a pedestial and they definitely share a market with SP and regular multiplayer games. They undeniably have an effect on each others' sales.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • raistlinmraistlinm new orleans, LAPosts: 673Member

    I actually admire the spirit of your post but the problem is you are speaking to the elitist of the elite mmorpg players and the truth is, there have been just as many sandboxes that have been even more spectacular failures than the themeparks to release.

    Let's be honest here while every game you mention did underperform to some extent (and I suspect regardless of what the GW2 army says that game is headed down the same path) the sandboxes that have been released have been even worse than any of the themeparks you name.

    Darkfall,Fallen Earth,Mortal online remember those? These games if you ask former players were hardly more than scams.

    If your argument is that these huge budgets should be going to these games I still have to disagree because no matter what we on mmorpg think the gameplaying populace at large isn't ready to support a big budget sandbox.

    If they did games like civilization would sell more copies on consoles etc. games with depth though don't do well so I still don't see this.

    Unfortunately your poll is extremely limited with an  all or nothing view that is basically about trying to draw a line in the sand and atleast for me I'm not there yet as I still do enjoy playing some of my themeparks but make no mistake I'm more than willikng to support a well made open ended sandbox so log as it doesn't resort to stupid tactics that cater to a specific type of gamer like ffa pvp.

  • InlorInlor MuensterPosts: 37Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    But what if the person isn't skilled, creative or social enough to actually achieve those goals?

    Oh, I do not think it is a question of being very skilled or creative or even being very social! I very much believe, that any theme park fanboy could have the time of their life by playing a good sandbox too. Problem nowadays is, that there is - with the exception of EVE - no polished sandbox around. So do not even try. They think, all there is WoW style. That's why you often read by younger player that MMOs are all about raiding and doing instances and so on. Believe me, I have the most boring job on earth and  I am anything but creative or very skilled. And I still had the best MMO times in UO. I loved being a gardener, doing nothing else than growing plants for weeks, I loved to mine for hours, I love banksitting, I loved IDOCing etc. Nothing very creative or skill dependent. Just give players something meaningful to do other than striving for the next part of gear which will be useless when the next epansion hits.
    Besides... Want to be subjugated? Want to be robbed? Want to get hunted by other players?
    YES, YES and YES! I would love that :)
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,642Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ghost12

    "If there are no good MMOs, people will play something else. "

    Now that is faulty logic. If there are no good MMOs, then those players will not play anymore MMOs (Or just stick to playing WoW) The "other games" do not factor into the equation here. We're talking about MMOs, not the entire game market.

    No, it is perfectly logical. We've been watching it happen for four years or so, as MMO gamers have been shifting more of their gaming time to MOBAs, Action RPGs, MMOFPS/RTS, mobile games, and singleplayer RPGs.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • apocolusterapocoluster newport news, VAPosts: 1,321Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ghost12
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Ghost12
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Quirhid

     

    Look, another MMO Moses. Please tell us more revelations oh enlightened one! We will buy whatever you're selling.

    Good reference, sandbox style gamers do seem to be wandering the wilderness for 40 years trying to find their next big title.

    Perhaps one day it will happen........

    I think there's a market for a new sandbox style MMORPG, but I can't agree that there's any real evidence that it will accomodate "millions upon millions" served.

    Unfortunately, if you are going to build a new MMORPG and ask someone to front you anywhere from $100M - 200M to create it, they're going to want some assurances that you know what you are doing and that there's evidence in the marketplace that reduces the risk of their investment.

    Right now, the only real examples to follow are standard theme park MMO's so that's why we keep getting so many variants of basically the same game released back in 2004 (or even earlier if we go back to EQ1)

    If a runaway hit in the sandbox space ever happens it's probably going to be a matter more of sh!t luck rather than by intelligent design.

     

    I sincerely believe that anyone that expects to have WoW's number of players is just delusional. WoW was the introduction to a new style of gaming and I doubt we will see one game gather as many players as WoW has.

     But who says a good sandbox cant gather 500,000?

    Anything is possible. And sad fact is - the MMO industry is extremely risky. Any entreprenuer knows that an investment is always going to be risky.

     The fact that standard themepark MMO's keep on underperforming tells me, as an investor, that they arent what they are cracked up to be. And I am not approaching this as a sandbox lover, I'm approaching this as an investor. As an investor, I would not invest in any themepark title as of this moment.

     I think with the performance of TOR, its pretty clear.

     Part of being an entrepreneur is not only examining the risks, but also taking them. Opening a business is always risky.

     There are always going to be risks. But right now, I would rather fund a sandbox MMO rather than a themepark any day of the week. It makes much more sense.

     

    Oh, I agree with you, 500K is probably quite obtainable, but no one is going to invest 100M + in a new title to draw in that number of subs, just not worth the risk.

    While perhaps no one expects a repeat of WOW's success (probably not even Blizzard) I'd venture to say most developers are shooting for at least 2M or so (based on recent SWTOR info)  and they're not seeing it in the sandbox market at this point.

     

     

    But SWTOR is a disaster.

     

    See here's the thing, if these MMOs came out with good numbers, then I would have much more faith in the themepark genre.

     

    But from the looks of it, these themeparks are actually underperforming. How is it that such games like Runescape and Minecraft that are created in people's basements and backyards are yielding such high returns on investment, compared to these other titles?

     

    I suspect these investors may not actually know what they are doing. We've had 8 years of evidence towards themeparks and lets face it, they have nearly all met with mediocre success with the exception of a couple games. People can throw around the  "themeparks are the standard" argument plenty, but when we look at the evidence - it doesnt really add up.

     

    I think what its going to take is a studio that is prepared to really innovate and distinguish themselves from the competition. When you do that in business, it increases your chances of success exponentially. And I think everyone can agree on that.

     

    It also increases your chances of failure exponetially too

    No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  • kevjardskevjards carlislePosts: 1,463Member
    Originally posted by Ghost12
    Originally posted by Failings
    I believe the sandbox formula has always been what MMOs were about. The genre was led astray by WoW's success but finally it seems we're coming out of that infernal cycle.

    I've been thinking about that.

     

    Its possible that WoW was a sort of necessary evil. It brought many new players into the genre. Unfortunately, these players dont really know what a sandbox is. However, I believe at this point, players are ready "for more" and ready for the genre to evolve into something more, giving players their freedoms back.

    WoW was the training wheels. Now, we're ready for the real deal.

    this..i have heard the term sandbox floating around,can someone please explain the difference between lets say conan and a sandbox mmo please...i would be very greatful

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by kevjards
    Originally posted by Ghost12
     

    this..i have heard the term sandbox floating around,can someone please explain the difference between lets say conan and a sandbox mmo please...i would be very greatful

    Sandboxes are like communism: It sounds fantastic but never works (in its purest form).

    But in all seriousness, this would be a topic for another thread, I think.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,980Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kevjards
    Originally posted by Ghost12
    Originally posted by Failings
    I believe the sandbox formula has always been what MMOs were about. The genre was led astray by WoW's success but finally it seems we're coming out of that infernal cycle.

    I've been thinking about that.

     

    Its possible that WoW was a sort of necessary evil. It brought many new players into the genre. Unfortunately, these players dont really know what a sandbox is. However, I believe at this point, players are ready "for more" and ready for the genre to evolve into something more, giving players their freedoms back.

    WoW was the training wheels. Now, we're ready for the real deal.

    this..i have heard the term sandbox floating around,can someone please explain the difference between lets say conan and a sandbox mmo please...i would be very greatful

    That's a really tall order, and there's been dozens of threads on these forums about what makes a sandbox, and the answer is, different things to different people. 

    There is no commonly accepted definition of what a sandbox style MMORPG really is, (on these forums anyways) unless you accept the definitions posted on Wikipedia.

    In my case, I know one when I see one.  I play EVE, very heavy on sandbox style design and game mechanics, I've played AOC, much more theme park like in design though I would have to write a huge post to explain my reasonings. (not a post for this thread)

    In the end some folks would agree with my view, probably very many more would not.

    That's a debate that will never be settled.

     

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • dinamsdinams Muriae, VAPosts: 1,362Member

    Good intention, bad execution

    All I see in the OP is yelling and propheticizing to the masses while manifesting the OP hatred for themeparks

     

    "It has potential"
    -Second most used phrase on existence
    "It sucks"
    -Most used phrase on existence

  • Ghost12Ghost12 Boston, MAPosts: 684Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Ghost12

    "If there are no good MMOs, people will play something else. "

    Now that is faulty logic. If there are no good MMOs, then those players will not play anymore MMOs (Or just stick to playing WoW) The "other games" do not factor into the equation here. We're talking about MMOs, not the entire game market.

    No, it is perfectly logical. We've been watching it happen for four years or so, as MMO gamers have been shifting more of their gaming time to MOBAs, Action RPGs, MMOFPS/RTS, mobile games, and singleplayer RPGs.

     

    But thats not the point.

     

    If a product is underperforming, and if your customer base is unhappy with it , you improve the product. Not sit back and watch them move on to other things.

  • apocolusterapocoluster newport news, VAPosts: 1,321Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dinams

    Good intention, bad execution

    All I see in the OP is yelling and propheticizing to the masses while manifesting the OP hatred for themeparks

     

    ...and talking down to all who would disagree with him as if only his thoughts and opinions matter on the subject.  Sadly I dont even think he realizes he is doing it. This is undermining his entire position making this thread more a farce than a discussion.

    No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  • raistlinmraistlinm new orleans, LAPosts: 673Member
    Originally posted by Ghost12
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Look, another MMO Moses. Please tell us more revelations oh enlightened one! We will buy whatever you're selling.

    Good reference, sandbox style gamers do seem to be wandering the wilderness for 40 years trying to find their next big title.

    Perhaps one day it will happen........

    I think there's a market for a new sandbox style MMORPG, but I can't agree that there's any real evidence that it will accomodate "millions upon millions" served.

    Unfortunately, if you are going to build a new MMORPG and ask someone to front you anywhere from $100M - 200M to create it, they're going to want some assurances that you know what you are doing and that there's evidence in the marketplace that reduces the risk of their investment.

    Right now, the only real examples to follow are standard theme park MMO's so that's why we keep getting so many variants of basically the same game released back in 2004 (or even earlier if we go back to EQ1)

    If a runaway hit in the sandbox space ever happens it's probably going to be a matter more of sh!t luck rather than by intelligent design.

     

     

    I sincerely believe that anyone that expects to have WoW's number of players is just delusional. WoW was the introduction to a new style of gaming and I doubt we will see one game gather as many players as WoW has.

     

    But who says a good sandbox cant gather 500,000?

     

    Anything is possible. And sad fact is - the MMO industry is extremely risky. Any entreprenuer knows that an investment is always going to be risky.

     

    The fact that standard themepark MMO's keep on underperforming tells me, as an investor, that they arent what they are cracked up to be. And I am not approaching this as a sandbox lover, I'm approaching this as an investor. As an investor, I would not invest in any themepark title as of this moment.

     

    I think with the performance of TOR, its pretty clear.

     

    Part of being an entrepreneur is not only examining the risks, but also taking them. Opening a business is always risky.

     

    There are always going to be risks. But right now, I would rather fund a sandbox MMO rather than a themepark any day of the week. It makes much more sense.

     

    If investors are forcing EA to go batshit crazy over something like a million players what gives you the idea that INVESTORS are going to want to put out 100 million for a game that only garners 500k?!?!?

    I keep hearing SWG brought up as an example of a good sandbox but that game had trouble reaching 1 million subs and if I used the opinion of the three friends i got to try the game who all quit within a week the standard reasons for SWg's failures cannot explain why it didn't do too well.

    See i think op you make the mistake of assuming because someone is willing to play a video game that they are automatically going to go "all in".  from my experience that just isn't the case at all.

    in an earlier post you insinuate that the 11 million or so wow players are simply waiting for something with more depth and in doing this I think you supplant your own desires for the desires of others, if you think stroking an epeen is not a big reason for those people to play these games then you are on the wrong track in my opinion.

  • Ghost12Ghost12 Boston, MAPosts: 684Member
    Originally posted by kevjards
    Originally posted by Ghost12
    Originally posted by Failings
    I believe the sandbox formula has always been what MMOs were about. The genre was led astray by WoW's success but finally it seems we're coming out of that infernal cycle.

    I've been thinking about that.

     

    Its possible that WoW was a sort of necessary evil. It brought many new players into the genre. Unfortunately, these players dont really know what a sandbox is. However, I believe at this point, players are ready "for more" and ready for the genre to evolve into something more, giving players their freedoms back.

    WoW was the training wheels. Now, we're ready for the real deal.

    this..i have heard the term sandbox floating around,can someone please explain the difference between lets say conan and a sandbox mmo please...i would be very greatful

     

    These are elements that are generally considered "sandboxy"

     

    + Classless system/Skill based (think TES Skyrim and Oblivion)

    + Open world

    + Player creation of items (crafting)

    + Player Housing and furnishing

    + Focus on big, epic quests rather than smaller ones

    + Player cities

    + Harsher death penalty

    + Guild political control > conquering other cities

    + Open economy

    + Meaningful PvP

    + Strong Roleplaying foundation

    + Generally more deeper gameplay, with the theme of being what you want to be, then being in a pre-defined role.

    + A focus on player freedom

     

     

    Feel free to add to the list :)

     

     

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by Ghost12
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Ghost12

    "If there are no good MMOs, people will play something else. "

    Now that is faulty logic. If there are no good MMOs, then those players will not play anymore MMOs (Or just stick to playing WoW) The "other games" do not factor into the equation here. We're talking about MMOs, not the entire game market.

    No, it is perfectly logical. We've been watching it happen for four years or so, as MMO gamers have been shifting more of their gaming time to MOBAs, Action RPGs, MMOFPS/RTS, mobile games, and singleplayer RPGs.

     

    But thats not the point.

     

    If a product is underperforming, and if your customer base is unhappy with it , you improve the product. Not sit back and watch them move on to other things.

    You are forgetting some people would rather see nothing rather than a sandbox game be produced.

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Originally posted by RefMinor
    Originally posted by Ghost12
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Ghost12

     

     

     

    You are forgetting some people would rather see nothing rather than a sandbox game be produced.

    A few posters do indeed give that impression.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,230Member Uncommon

    seriously, you guys just keep crying for sandboxes, because you never actually played one.

    thers is like one sandbox mmo out there atm. and this one has an active player ammount of 400k.

     

    why not play eve online when you like sandboxes that much??

    the best part is that you actually didnt even mention the only sandbox out there atm. nuff said. thx for your wall of text tho. cba to read it all.

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,642Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ghost12
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Ghost12

    "If there are no good MMOs, people will play something else. "

    Now that is faulty logic. If there are no good MMOs, then those players will not play anymore MMOs (Or just stick to playing WoW) The "other games" do not factor into the equation here. We're talking about MMOs, not the entire game market.

    No, it is perfectly logical. We've been watching it happen for four years or so, as MMO gamers have been shifting more of their gaming time to MOBAs, Action RPGs, MMOFPS/RTS, mobile games, and singleplayer RPGs.

    But thats not the point.

    If a product is underperforming, and if your customer base is unhappy with it , you improve the product. Not sit back and watch them move on to other things.

     

    Yes, you 'work in business' but I don't think you get this one. This isn't toilet paper, it's the entertainment industry, although with some of the releases in the past few years one might think it actually is the former.

    People want to be entertained, and most people don't say "I want to play an MMO" rather they say "I want a game with [list of features]." If another game genre or platform offers those features they will migrate to it. It is as simple as that.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • Ghost12Ghost12 Boston, MAPosts: 684Member
    Originally posted by raistlinm
    Originally posted by Ghost12
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Look, another MMO Moses. Please tell us more revelations oh enlightened one! We will buy whatever you're selling.

    Good reference, sandbox style gamers do seem to be wandering the wilderness for 40 years trying to find their next big title.

    Perhaps one day it will happen........

    I think there's a market for a new sandbox style MMORPG, but I can't agree that there's any real evidence that it will accomodate "millions upon millions" served.

    Unfortunately, if you are going to build a new MMORPG and ask someone to front you anywhere from $100M - 200M to create it, they're going to want some assurances that you know what you are doing and that there's evidence in the marketplace that reduces the risk of their investment.

    Right now, the only real examples to follow are standard theme park MMO's so that's why we keep getting so many variants of basically the same game released back in 2004 (or even earlier if we go back to EQ1)

    If a runaway hit in the sandbox space ever happens it's probably going to be a matter more of sh!t luck rather than by intelligent design.

     

     

    I sincerely believe that anyone that expects to have WoW's number of players is just delusional. WoW was the introduction to a new style of gaming and I doubt we will see one game gather as many players as WoW has.

     

    But who says a good sandbox cant gather 500,000?

     

    Anything is possible. And sad fact is - the MMO industry is extremely risky. Any entreprenuer knows that an investment is always going to be risky.

     

    The fact that standard themepark MMO's keep on underperforming tells me, as an investor, that they arent what they are cracked up to be. And I am not approaching this as a sandbox lover, I'm approaching this as an investor. As an investor, I would not invest in any themepark title as of this moment.

     

    I think with the performance of TOR, its pretty clear.

     

    Part of being an entrepreneur is not only examining the risks, but also taking them. Opening a business is always risky.

     

    There are always going to be risks. But right now, I would rather fund a sandbox MMO rather than a themepark any day of the week. It makes much more sense.

     

    If investors are forcing EA to go batshit crazy over something like a million players what gives you the idea that INVESTORS are going to want to put out 100 million for a game that only garners 500k?!?!?

    I keep hearing SWG brought up as an example of a good sandbox but that game had trouble reaching 1 million subs and if I used the opinion of the three friends i got to try the game who all quit within a week the standard reasons for SWg's failures cannot explain why it didn't do too well.

    See i think op you make the mistake of assuming because someone is willing to play a video game that they are automatically going to go "all in".  from my experience that just isn't the case at all.

    in an earlier post you insinuate that the 11 million or so wow players are simply waiting for something with more depth and in doing this I think you supplant your own desires for the desires of others, if you think stroking an epeen is not a big reason for those people to play these games then you are on the wrong track in my opinion.

     

    First of all, SWG was made before WoW came out. SWG was made in 2003, nearly a decade ago. We are in a very different age now where everyone except their grandmother uses a computer.

     

    I've read the reviews on TOR, GW2 etc. These arent just my desires. Other players feel this way too. Its what THEY said.

     

    Perhaps investors do not have to invest 100k in their next game?

     

    Either way, if you are an investor you are there to take risks. Part of being an entreprenuer is backing innovative products. These Themeparks arent innovative and its showing, and the playerbase is NOT responding favorbly to it.  Maybe lukewarm at best.

     

    So maybe its time for a change?

     

    Or they can keep on releasing these titles with mediocre results.

  • MithrandolirMithrandolir The Deep Woods, NJPosts: 1,698Member Uncommon

    I prefer sandbox games. I love minecraft as a non-mmo, but I also love mmo's like UO, Xsyon, DFO, ATiTD, etc...

    I didn't like WoW very much, and hated EQ2 (loved EQ1 though).

    There have been some themeparks in the past that I did thoroughly enjoy for years, EQ1, DAoC, AC1 to name a few.

    These days, the only modern (post DAoC) themeparks that I really like are rift and GW2. I have tried everything else pretty much and just find the modern themepark to be not to my liking.

    So although I play and love GW2 and will certainly revisit rift for a bit as a secondary mmo once the expansion launches, I would also love to see more effort go into sandboxes as well.

    So count be as a "both" I guess.

     

     

     

     

  • AusareAusare adamstown, MDPosts: 850Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Ghost12
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Ghost12

    "If there are no good MMOs, people will play something else. "

    Now that is faulty logic. If there are no good MMOs, then those players will not play anymore MMOs (Or just stick to playing WoW) The "other games" do not factor into the equation here. We're talking about MMOs, not the entire game market.

    No, it is perfectly logical. We've been watching it happen for four years or so, as MMO gamers have been shifting more of their gaming time to MOBAs, Action RPGs, MMOFPS/RTS, mobile games, and singleplayer RPGs.

    But thats not the point.

    If a product is underperforming, and if your customer base is unhappy with it , you improve the product. Not sit back and watch them move on to other things.

     

    Yes, you 'work in business' but I don't think you get this one. This isn't toilet paper, it's the entertainment industry, although with some of the releases in the past few years one might think it actually is the former.

    People want to be entertained, and most people don't say "I want to play an MMO" rather they say "I want a game with [list of features]." If another game genre or platform offers those features they will migrate to it. It is as simple as that.

     

    there is something in those games you list that most features people want in sandboxes do not have....protection of invested time in your game.  FPS you might lose a round, but nothing else and rts the same.  Single player you can always go back to a previous save.  The general sandbox that most want does not appeal to the majority.  Unless you are telling me that the majority of the Sandbox whiners want a PvE based game with controlled PvP?  Then yes I think that kind of sandbox will take off, but the sandbox whiners will come out complaining it is carebear. 

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    And this, friends, is how to construct a perfectly loaded poll.

    But even given that we agree completely with the op that NOW IS THE TIME!  Rushing your brand new on-demand mmo into production today!!!! gets you--five more years to wait before it's done.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,642Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ghost12
    Originally posted by kevjards
    Originally posted by Ghost12
    Originally posted by Failings
    I believe the sandbox formula has always been what MMOs were about. The genre was led astray by WoW's success but finally it seems we're coming out of that infernal cycle.

    I've been thinking about that.

     

    Its possible that WoW was a sort of necessary evil. It brought many new players into the genre. Unfortunately, these players dont really know what a sandbox is. However, I believe at this point, players are ready "for more" and ready for the genre to evolve into something more, giving players their freedoms back.

    WoW was the training wheels. Now, we're ready for the real deal.

    this..i have heard the term sandbox floating around,can someone please explain the difference between lets say conan and a sandbox mmo please...i would be very greatful

     

    These are elements that are generally considered "sandboxy"

     

    + Classless system/Skill based (think TES Skyrim and Oblivion)

    + Open world

    + Player creation of items (crafting)

    + Player Housing and furnishing

    + Focus on big, epic quests rather than smaller ones

    + Player cities

    + Harsher death penalty

    + Guild political control > conquering other cities

    + Open economy

    + Meaningful PvP

    + Strong Roleplaying foundation

    + Generally more deeper gameplay, with the theme of being what you want to be, then being in a pre-defined role.

    + A focus on player freedom

    Feel free to add to the list :)

     

    And so the thread ends and a frightening new one rises from its ashes.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

This discussion has been closed.