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Generally speaking, I do not like the majority of people that play MMOs these days. I do not want to play with them. That social number in my sig was not always that low...but then again, neither was my opinion of the majority of folks that play MMOs.
I mainly play MMOs by myself these days - the only real "group" content I participate in is PvP. But then again, like I said... I do not like the majority of people that play MMOs these days.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I find the main reason to not group (for me) is the difficulty in aligning quest objectives and KEEPING the group together on the tiers of completion. Another difficulty for me is when people do quests in really inefficient ways (due to lack of knowledge about the quest, inattentiveness or just general apathy towards what they're doing) after asking to join you. I love to play every game I choose to play, but ultimately, Hell is other people.... it holds true in every game for me.
That said, there are other group objectives I actively enjoy pursuing - Dungeons/Raids are my main source of enjoyment, as the group sense of accomplishment after completing challenging content is second to nothing for me. I don't care if you can get the same rewards from solo grinding, or pvp, or whatever... I will always choose dungeon running because it's fun and gives you a chance to work together with people.
I'm actually in a bit of an MMO-choosing conundrum because of this. I can't decide if I want to struggle with the complete unfriendliness that is GW2 group pve, or if I want to try another less-popular game and have trouble finding groups to do what most gives me joy.
An interesting, thought-provoking read. Thanks!
Having been playing RPGs and MMOs for over 20 years, I'm going to make this statement as much to get a rise out of rabid newbies to the genre (yes, if you started playing multiplayer online games in just the last 10 years you're a newbie).
Guild Wars 2 is too easy, even solo. I was plowing through group content 8-10 levels under the reccomended group range. Experience of decades helps - you know, back when games were hard because you gained a sense of achievement for actually overcoming something the average person could not. MMOs are there to cater to the average people, after all, aren't they?
They get what they pay for, an experience crafted around making them feel good about themselves while they're busy doing nothing impressive at all. If solo players want to feel good about themselves for doing nothing, shouldn't they get the opportunity as well? It's more money in the bank for developers.
Originally posted by Blackhound Having been playing RPGs and MMOs for over 20 years, I'm going to make this statement as much to get a rise out of rabid newbies to the genre (yes, if you started playing multiplayer online games in just the last 10 years you're a newbie). Guild Wars 2 is too easy, even solo. I was plowing through group content 8-10 levels under the reccomended group range. Experience of decades helps - you know, back when games were hard because you gained a sense of achievement for actually overcoming something the average person could not. MMOs are there to cater to the average people, after all, aren't they? They get what they pay for, an experience crafted around making them feel good about themselves while they're busy doing nothing impressive at all. If solo players want to feel good about themselves for doing nothing, shouldn't they get the opportunity as well? It's more money in the bank for developers.
Originally posted by tmr819 Originally posted by blbeta The answer if fairly simple for me. I have been playing MMOs since 1999 and started with Asheron's Call. Scale & Content No other games really come close to the size and content that MMOs offer. There have been a few that feel like it at first, but after some time in them you typically realize they are not. This is not to say "all" MMOs have great scale and content. Other reasons that make MMOs attractive to this soloist: Others make the world feel more alive even if I don't game with them Challenge to try group content solo (doesn't always work out too well) Share the experience with RL friends and others if I so choose Soloist/Group - 80/20 % Even in a game like Planetside I did a lot of soloing. Great fun taking out objectives alone. As long as it is fun, which soloing is for me, isn't that the point of gaming?
This is a pretty good summary of where I am, too.
In my opinion, the ideal MMO offers group content a la carte, like dessert for them as wants it, but not critical to progression in the game. As long as an MMO offers what I feel to be a full game's worth of solo content, I'm content. Some MMOs -- SWTOR, STO, GW2, etc. -- do a better, richer job of this than others.
GW2 does better than most, in fact, since it allows you to progress in multiple ways (DEs, dungeons, crafting, exploration, puzzles, personal story, etc.), depending on your preferred playstyle.
Me to. My son will not play most mmo's saying they are shallow and I say you havent tried enough good ones
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2 I don't neccesarly have a problem with people who want to play a more solo focused game but it is inherently incompatible with the preferences of people who want to play a team-oriented/group experience. Golf is a game with a solo focused rulset. Baseball is a game with a group focused ruleset. Both provide thier own experiences and rewards. However people looking for a group oriented experience really aren't going to be satisfied with playing by a golf ruleset even if it's somewhat modified to be freindlier to groups. They are really looking for baseball not golf. Trying to appeal to both preferences within the same ruleset is really misguided. Appealing to the widest possible demographic is actualy a rookie mistake if you are competing in a crowded market. The reason is that your product is going to get beat in every single segment of that demographic by competitors that are more focused on the individual preferences of those segments and are therefore able to deliver a stronger product offering in those segments. I think we are actualy starting to see that in some of the dissapointing performances in recent MMO's and Developers/Publishers seem to be recognizing that in some of the noises they are making about upcoming products and how they are trying to differentiate themselves. Part of that may simply be due to the fact that Development cycles are so long that 5 years ago when many of the recent releases were conceptualized, the market looked different. In terms of the popularity of "solofication", I think we have, for a variety of reasons, become more isolated from one another in our society in general, more socialy inept/awkward and far less understanding of the concepts of needing to strive for achievements and learning to compromise in working with others to achieve goals. If you look at something as simple and basic that at lower school levels kids aren't allowed to "lose" at sports and scores aren't even kept, you can see how this evolves. So when little Bobby plays basketball, he never learns that instead of shooting the ball every time he gets his hands on it, he should try to pass it to another player who has a better shot. He doesn't learn that, because there are no negative consequences associated with his behavior. His team doesn't "loose" because of it and he gets his gold star at the end of the game just like everyone else. What do you think happens to little Bobby when he gets older? He think's he's entitled to shoot whenever he gets the ball, he thinks he's entitled to a gold star regardless of the results he gets and he gets resentfull and angry at the suggestion that he should pass to someone else.....so he actively avoids any situation that calls for it. Little Bobby has never been ALLOWED to learn what it means to play as part of a team, what it means to compromise with others or even what it means to fail. He doesn't feel comfortable with those sorts of situations so he actively avoids them. He takes those characteristics with him in terms of his entertainment preferences (e.g. games) and sadly far more important aspects of his life.
I really think you are off the mark here. I think that if a game company takes this outlook they will fail. Most of the really successful MMO's have a large solo content and in today's market they need to cater to bothe sides of the isle.
There are many reasons why it is important for MMOs to provide meaningful solo play options. To expect all players to engage in group play all the time ignores realities of timezones, game populations, character demographics (e.g. new players joining when the bulk of existing players are at endgame), different players' availability of uninterrupted playtime, etc.
So given these factors, it is absolutely appropriate that MMOs move away from the oldschool forced grouping designs and allow people to engage in fun and worthwhile activities solo.
Where the whole thing comes unglued, however, is that it collides with the modern entitled viewpoint that I deserve everything, that nobody else should have anything that I don't have, no matter what. Players with this attitude (and they are sadly numerous these days) whine and bitch and kick up a stink if they can't get everything through their preferred playstyle, and cause endless grief for any developers who try to follow the very reasonable course of providing meaningful solo play, but providing genuine incentives for cooperative and/or competitive group play.
Why I started to play MMOs (back in 99') does not matter, because the market has changed, general pc games have changed and the people as well. For me it has been something new and I went to try it out.
Today I only play MMOs, nothing else. So when I want to play solo with some chitchat in the background I do so, be it via chat or voicechat. When I want to get some group experience, I can get that as well from my MMO of choice.
Originally posted by Banquetto There are many reasons why it is important for MMOs to provide meaningful solo play options. To expect all players to engage in group play all the time ignores realities of timezones, game populations, character demographics (e.g. new players joining when the bulk of existing players are at endgame), different players' availability of uninterrupted playtime, etc. So given these factors, it is absolutely appropriate that MMOs move away from the oldschool forced grouping designs and allow people to engage in fun and worthwhile activities solo. Where the whole thing comes unglued, however, is that it collides with the modern entitled viewpoint that I deserve everything, that nobody else should have anything that I don't have, no matter what. Players with this attitude (and they are sadly numerous these days) whine and bitch and kick up a stink if they can't get everything through their preferred playstyle, and cause endless grief for any developers who try to follow the very reasonable course of providing meaningful solo play, but providing genuine incentives for cooperative and/or competitive group play.
Heh, that could be a stock reply to the majority of posts, eh? It's a shame...meh.
All the advantages given for solo play are true but there are two major problems with it
1) Humans are social animals. Social animals aren't that way just because they like being sociable. They are that way because they couldn't survive (in game terms: achieve goals) except in a group.
So whether people like it or not social == sticky beause humans are made that way.
The proof of this would be to ask all those people who mostly play solo while chatting with players they've known a long time is how/where did they meet those players? I bet most of them initially met doing content that required a group to survive/achieve and that of the 100+ players they met that way the people they still travel to different games with are the 4-8 of that 100+ they got on with best.
To get to that small group of 4-8 you generally have to go through 100+ people who annoy you.
Now all the practical reasons for anti-grouping still apply but despite that social will always equal sticky because that is how humans are made so the question them becomes what is the best compromise. It is very tricky but i'd suggest the first step might be to move the argument from solo vs group of 5+ to solo vs group of 2+.
2) The solo quest chain model has some inevitable logic to it.
If all the classes are doing the same quests then the quests have to be designed around the weakest solo class. This means either the quests become a faceroll for the best solo classes *or* over time the classes gradually become more and more similar via some mechanism or other e.g. specs or souls or whatever, so the gap between the best and worst solo class becomes less and less.
Slightly separately but also if the focus is on endgame then there is no need for multiple solo quest chains. At most you only need two for pvp
So, *even if* the optimal course was providing an online single player game within the context of an mmo the current course doesn't work because the trend has been towards creating *one* single player game inside an mmo - because the classes play mostly the same and play through the same quest chain. So it's not surprising if player's quit after they finish it.
(The SWTOR model ought to have worked on this level at least with players treating different classes as effectively a different single player game. I can only assume it didn't work out because the inidividual class stories weren't different enough.)
So *even if* the best mmorog model is a place where a lot of people play a single player game on the same server then the model has been moving away from that because if an mmo wants players to play longer than they play a single player game then an mmo needs to either a) constantly and rapidly produce sequels (expansions in mmo terms) or have *multiple* single player games within the same game i.e. where playing a human thief is as different as possible an experience as playing an ogre warrior (i.e. more like the ES model of RPG).
it is why are many new mmorpg's filled with asocial population
best mmo games are maked before 2005, when mmo mean social team work
Look ,today many peoples count D3 & Torhlight as mmo, something is wrong with todays mmorpg players.
only EVE is real MMO...but I am impressive with TSW
i feel the writer above who talked of managing real time to play games causing problems with grouping has the right idea about the causing of solo content in newer games,
i also feel that the role play aspect of games now has diminished, due to design restraints/game content.
i started out with Ultima Online way back when... there you had personal housing/ crafting pus a huge world where you could play not just the story line but your own stories ( anyone remember company of Yew??) doing UO solo was a very frustrating experience as you found you got to a certain point then didnt progress.
modern MMO's alow for people who cant spend alot of time with friends/social groups to still play the game towards the story driven end game. It is still a better experience to bet part of a guild or whatever , but even the biggest of them still dont have that feel that certain old games had.
I think this trend goes hand in hand with age of gamers. Many gamers that started with MMOs some years ago grew up from students with lots of time and little money to grown ups with little time and (arguably) lots of money. This means industry shifts more towards casuality and solo play - you can jump in at any time and play as much as you like. I also think later trends of games going F2P is sign of this. Normal F2P games give you possibility of transfering money into "game time" giving you boost so that your time in game is more efficient.
To put it simple, many gamers these days want social gaming experience, but don't have enough time to dedicate to it fully.
As I see it, it's a situation that will never please everyone.
I'll give you a few examples of my mmo experience.
I came to DAOC very late, I had good fun for the first few weeks but then I found a problem. It ended up being less and less fun and more me getting told "go there", "do this" etc with little explanation on why (I wasn't learning). Being fairly new to a game and waiting 50 mins on a hillside before a battle starts is not much fun, getting shouted at for wanting to walk about a bit as I'm bored after 50 mins of doing nothing again doesn't make for fun, especially when comments are being made along the lines of "if he wants to be a idiot......"
Roll on a few years and I started lotro about a year after it was released. I wanted to do the book quests but many you needed to group up for. Great, no problems with that. It wasn't hard to find a group, but I never got a chance to learn how to play my class within a group, there was always too many people who would rush in, kill everything without a word being said.
Sometimes I could only be on for a couple of hours and it would take 45 mins to finally get a pug group together, then 5 mins after we finally got started someone would say " sorry, got to go now"
I joined a great kin. They were more than willing to help me with anything I needed help for but having one or two max level players blasting everything in sight, took away the fun and any challenge of me trying to do it.
If I did join a pug group for the book instances, they would fly through it at 100mph not giving me a second to view the areas the debs had put a lot of time into designing etc.
When Lotro made the first book soloable, it was really nice being able to take in the sights of the instances, having the time to actually read the text and get involved in the story.
Before it was soloable, I had a choice, get my kin to blast through for me, spend a whole evening trying to find people my level to do it with (and often people had no interest as they've done the book on their main) , and more often than not, I didn't find people hence had no choice but skip the book until a later date.
As pug groups tended to fly through anything without giving those wanting to learn the time of day, I found myself at end level without having the knowledge of how to play my class and it was grouping up with my kin doing end level instances where I finally got to learn my class properly.
Due to those experiences I do prefer to mainly solo to end level, then have great fun raiding with my kin.
But, I do feel its gone too much in that direction. I like a challenge and its one thing allowing things to be soloable for those that want them, but its another thing altogether making them so easy, it hardly matters what skill I use (then again some will complain its still too hard) .
Now that books are soloable, getting a group your level to attempt it has become virtually impossible. People who would have taken time out of their own playing to help another player will now tell them that its easily soloable, hence grouping ends up harder.
I do feel that in general mmos have been dumbed down too much over recent years.
I don't agree with those players who say they've paid the same as me so just because I can devote hours to my gaming and they can't , they should be able to enjoy everything I enjoy. It doesn't work like that I real life and it doesn't work like that in a solo offline game. If someone plays something like FF7, unless they put in the hours they will never get to the conclusion. If two people take piano lessons, pay the same but one puts in 100hrs practice a week and the other 1 hr, the one that puts in 1 hr might only have that one hour spare a week, but it would be unreasonable for them to presume they are entitled to play pieces as complicated as the person that puts in 100hrs a week can just because they both pay the same amount for their lessons.
And of course now we have mmos coming out almost every week, the markets flooded, a company needs to get their investment back and hardcore mmos players that would have been spread over two or three games are now spread over loads. The companies are only interested in profit etc hence will pander to whatever gives them the most money and sadly that will not likely be what the hardcore mmo player wants.
All that said, I try other mmos but keep returning back to Lotro and a huge part of the reason is the friends and kin members I've got to meet over the years. I may solo my alts etc, but I still craft for others, they craft for me, it still feels to me like I'm in a huge game with other real life players.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Originally posted by gravesworn To me I dont understand why people want a solo mmorpg. There are plenty of rpgs, fps and other types of games that are solo. I like guild wars 2 when I bought it, but... I just havent logged in. My hope for mmorpgs is dwindling. Hopefully darkfall unholy wars will be a group based game like darkfall.
Thing are very simple. Quality. Never ever seen any regular rpg game being at par with wow, swtor, rift, ... Not even remotely. Skyrim is pure joke compared to best mmo's.
Also there is constant tweaking, upgrading, ... that do not occur with normal games.
I would never play game that i can not solo to max level. Simple as that. Another discussion is then endgame. There for sure you need socializing.
But i do not see problem. There are so many instances that gives xp since much below max level that every1 can play and socialize.
And why I also love to solo questing ... simply. I have JOB. And many other things to do in life (said this i really play to much, but had also few sport injuries and old injuries waking up as years go up :-)). And have many times unpredictable time schedule. So no, trying for 2 weeks to get 5 people to get my warlock mount at the bottom of instance because at time i can play nobody is wake up or everybody is raiding is not fun at all.
Never understood why some gamers are so bothered with us that want to level solo. You have your group play if you want it, we have our solo play.
There really is a simple asnwer.....
If the game is being labelled and sold as a MMORPG ,it should perform like one.So many are giving arguments based on THEM,well a game is not about the individual unless it is a sinmgle player game,it is about the entire server.
A MMO should not disguise itself as a MMO to attract people looking to play a MMO,then all of a sudden cater to those who want or should be playing something other than a MMO.
We see a common excuse like "I have no time for grouping".That is fine,MOST understand that,fact is a MMO is still a MMO,it shouldn't be catering to you a player who should not be in a MMO because you haven't the time to play one.
I used some analogies before and i will again.Sometimes people need to see the extreme to understand the logic.
Imagine there is a local kids baseball league.Now we all know what baseball is right?It is a TEAm sport,not a solo sport like Tennis or Badminton.Ok lets use that same analogy,i am very busy with life,i have no time,should Baseball change it's whole design to cater to me or others with no time?instead of 9 players aside we will change it to one player each team.Then just like games we also need to change the mechanics to meet the new standard for baseball.
Baseball is Baseball,youi can NEVER use any argument to have it cater to YOU,if yo uwant to play a TEAM sport or a grouping game, but can't ,then you don't play Baseball ,is is as simple as that.Once you begin to make changes to BAseball to allow one player to form the whole team,it is no longer Baseball anymore.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The main reason why solo? is you get more rewarded, loot, exp, etc. etc. etc. switch those arount and you get more people to group together.
Take Tera for example.
You get penalized for joining a group of people, everything is split, not even that, you also get to QQ about gear being dice rolled, and many times you get less loot for the time spend by grouping for DG or world bosses as if you would get if you would solo.
GW2 is actualy on the way to more group and solo friendly, you can jump in an event any time you'd like and play solo if you'd like, you don't get penalized for grouping or solo.
Only GW2 have two choices, solo or group and you don't get penalized either way.
Originally posted by Aerowyn Originally posted by gravesworn To me I dont understand why people want a solo mmorpg. There are plenty of rpgs, fps and other types of games that are solo. I like guild wars 2 when I bought it, but... I just havent logged in. My hope for mmorpgs is dwindling. Hopefully darkfall unholy wars will be a group based game like darkfall.
I think this sums it up for quite a few gamers, and unfortunately I haven't found a title that really caters to us. I came into MMOs years ago single and without kids, working part time. I had tons of time to play mmos/raid/socialize etc. Now I work 40+ hours, married, have young kids that need my attention more than a game. I still want to play, and I still like playing with friends I have made along the way, but I don't have the time to commit for lengthy group events. I was a tank forever, and I hated 15 minutes into a group dungeon/raid having to bail saying "Sorry, kids are hungry" etc. Real life comes first, but I still like to game. If I could find a game that's an MMO so I can still sociaize, but has MEANINGFUL progression at endgame for solo players I would be in heaven. I say meaningful because too many games are like "You can go exploring and earn a title! Hooray you!" You hit a brick wall in most games if you are a solo player in end game.
"In other words, why does the expanded playerbase of gamers want options that allow them to not interact with others in games that were originally designed with teamwork and socialization in mind?"
That one's very simple, sometimes you just don't want to deal with other people and do your own thing.
Or you want play briefy before heading out and can't commit to doing something in group ,usually activities that take time, and if you're unlucky finding a group can take longer than the time you have to play =P
Adding solo content also isn't that new, AFAIK Anarchy Online and City of Heroes pretty much pioneered "instancing", where all your missions were easily soloable. While still having other group content.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Dais, some games actually added soloable endgame stuff, City of Heroes recently did this for their "Incarnate" stuff.
To get the abilities you can either join "Trials", which take a lot of players or you can run the soloable Incarnate story arcs and repeatable missions, which give you the same stuff as the Trials, just in much smaller amounts because the Devs still wanted to give players an incentive to group.
Sadly the game's now being killed off by NCsoft, even though it was still profitable it didn't fit into the company's future "vision"
Leading to their instant firing of Paragon Studios' 80 Developers/employees