Progression has less to do with the "MMO" part, and more to do with the "RPG" part.
Character progression of some sort is a major focus of RPGs, whether that's paper and pencil, or computer-based.
Yes, but in a good PnP RPG, progression isn't just being handed shiny things, it's improving the character, but by improving their stats and by knowing how to better utilize the character. Of the two, the second is the most important. In an MMO though, progression is usually so mind-numbingly simplistic, you get new armor that looks the same as your old armor, a new sword that looks the same as your old sword so you can go out and fight new, stronger enemies that look just like your old enemies. Progression is done so badly in most MMOs, it's laughable.
It's the meatier mob with a beefier bat mentality. I think STO does it the worst because of their replayablity of missions. You can literally fight level 50 versions of the level 1 mobs. I mean - the stats are boosted of course - but it's the same mob...same look, same name, etc...just meatier and beefier.
Many games will at least change the model and the name, but in the end - it's still the meatier mob with the beefier bat. That level 100 boss that rules a kingdom is no smarter than the level 10 boss that sleeps in a tent in a cave. There are as many "guys" defending the tent guy as the kingdom guy. They just have more health and do more damage. Meh...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Yes, but in a good PnP RPG, progression isn't just being handed shiny things, it's improving the character, but by improving their stats and by knowing how to better utilize the character. Of the two, the second is the most important. In an MMO though, progression is usually so mind-numbingly simplistic, you get new armor that looks the same as your old armor, a new sword that looks the same as your old sword so you can go out and fight new, stronger enemies that look just like your old enemies. Progression is done so badly in most MMOs, it's laughable.
Dont forget that modern mmo ( i dont dare put the rpg) are not for rpg fans, they are for fast action solo gamers now. Thy why we dont have real character progression and the long journey who come with it.
And I thought the good members didn't try assuming something that isn't even in the post they read. Progression isn't a "negative", neither is playing a game for fun. People should be happy that there are multiple types of MMOs to play now, but as you can see, they aren't. Unlike fans of most genres (excluding FPS titles), many MMO players seem to think that if you can't enjoy one MMO as much as another, then it fails.
As an aside, it's all relative to the person in question. I knew people in WoW who had every piece of leet gear possible but didn't do a damn thing in real life but sit there. It doesn't mean they have some desire to better themselves, it's because it's a video game and it's easy compared to moving their ass.
You see this is exactly the opposite, all major mmo these days are for the solo, fast and easy crownd, leveling became easier than ever, the journey is fast and not very challenging. Anyone can have anything without taking the time to get it. But where are the games for those who like a long and hard journey? There is none execpt the old ones.
Which is where it gets into the "Doubling Plus Factor" - so to speak, and makes it pretty tough on devs.
Say you start off with a standard Fantasy MMORPG. Somebody wants a Sci-Fi MMORPG. You're now at two games. Somebody wants faster leveling and more focus on endgame. Not everybody does though. So now you have two Fantasy games and two Sci-Fi games. Somebody wants more action orientated combat. Not everybody does though. But still, now you're at four Fantasy games and four Sci-Fi games. Somebody wants a Superhero game. Tada, you've got four Superhero games. Somebody wants another genre, bam - four of them. Then you get into features that folks want and others do not want - BAM - for each game, you've got two. Somebody wants dungeon finder - somebody doesn't - you're at 8 Fantasy, 8 Sci-Fi, and 8 Superhero games. Somebody wants Post Apocalyptic - bam - wait, Post Apocalyptic means different things... who knows how many games you'll end up with there? Heh, throw in Sandbox versions of those games and....
...sometimes we have to settle. Or we just walk away.
I believe it's one of the reasons that so many folks are always looking for the next game - they're looking for the game that does not exist. It's version #248 of 3257. It may or may never exist.
You are mixing things here. I dont talk about themes, fantasy or sci-fi has nothing to do about the fact that all major mmo have the same kind of progression. Solo fast and easy.
Fast action combat or slow tab targeting doesnt matter to me, if the game offers me some real character progression, with a lots of thing to do and yeah i want time sink features.
In FFXI i used to do fishing for hours to get money or cook to get my kebab. I was breeding chocobos to get one with a different colors than yellow. I could spent days playing without going get some lvl.
After month of playing my highest job level was 43. I did played more than 4 hours a days. I didnt even scrath the surface.
I cant do this in modern mmo. After somes weeks all the maps are reveal, you are max lvl and you grind gears...or i heard now it's cosmetics o well. Game over i think.
Someone outside of the gaming generation would look at us and ask, "Are these guys are being trained to be happy playing games instead of real life?"
No one is being trained to do anything, people simply do things that stimulate the brain, releasing the chemicals that make you feel satisfied (can't remember the name) when someone becomes "addicted" to a style or specific action that satisfies them it's hard and sometimes impossible to become satisfied any other way. We're not being "trained", its just natural. Unfortunately.
And I thought the good members didn't try assuming something that isn't even in the post they read. Progression isn't a "negative", neither is playing a game for fun. People should be happy that there are multiple types of MMOs to play now, but as you can see, they aren't. Unlike fans of most genres (excluding FPS titles), many MMO players seem to think that if you can't enjoy one MMO as much as another, then it fails.
As an aside, it's all relative to the person in question. I knew people in WoW who had every piece of leet gear possible but didn't do a damn thing in real life but sit there. It doesn't mean they have some desire to better themselves, it's because it's a video game and it's easy compared to moving their ass.
You see this is exactly the opposite, all major mmo these days are for the solo, fast and easy crownd, leveling became easier than ever, the journey is fast and not very challenging. Anyone can have anything without taking the time to get it. But where are the games for those who like a long and hard journey? There is none execpt the old ones.
Which is where it gets into the "Doubling Plus Factor" - so to speak, and makes it pretty tough on devs.
Say you start off with a standard Fantasy MMORPG. Somebody wants a Sci-Fi MMORPG. You're now at two games. Somebody wants faster leveling and more focus on endgame. Not everybody does though. So now you have two Fantasy games and two Sci-Fi games. Somebody wants more action orientated combat. Not everybody does though. But still, now you're at four Fantasy games and four Sci-Fi games. Somebody wants a Superhero game. Tada, you've got four Superhero games. Somebody wants another genre, bam - four of them. Then you get into features that folks want and others do not want - BAM - for each game, you've got two. Somebody wants dungeon finder - somebody doesn't - you're at 8 Fantasy, 8 Sci-Fi, and 8 Superhero games. Somebody wants Post Apocalyptic - bam - wait, Post Apocalyptic means different things... who knows how many games you'll end up with there? Heh, throw in Sandbox versions of those games and....
...sometimes we have to settle. Or we just walk away.
I believe it's one of the reasons that so many folks are always looking for the next game - they're looking for the game that does not exist. It's version #248 of 3257. It may or may never exist.
You are mixing things here. I dont talk about themes, fantasy or sci-fi has nothing to do about the fact that all major mmo have the same kind of progression. Solo fast and easy.
Fast action combat or slow tab targeting doesnt matter to me, if the game offers me some real character progression, with a lots of thing to do and yeah i want time sink features.
In FFXI i used to do fishing for hours to get money or cook to get my kebab. I was breeding chocobos to get one with a different colors than yellow. I could spent days playing without going get some lvl.
After month of playing my highest job level was 43. I did played more than 4 hours a days. I didnt even scrath the surface.
I cant do this in modern mmo. After somes weeks all the maps are reveal, you are max lvl and you grind gears...or i heard now it's cosmetics o well. Game over i think.
It's not a mixing thing. I was just looking beyond you. You're an example though - you're looking for version #26 of 3257. You want a game with a certain set of features. There is going to be somebody else that wants something else. There are going to be people where the theme matters - so again - there would need to be countless games to handle everything that everybody wants.
So we generally have to compromise, we have to settle, or we have to walk away.
Maybe Game X has 60% of what you want - which is more than Game Y or Game Z. So you play Game X, but you're never really happy with Game X. Perhaps Game R once did it for you, but that was ten years ago and Game R still looks like a ten year old game. You want Game U, which is Game R with an updated graphics engine - but that's mostly Game R still. Odds are though, that Game U is not going to exist.
It's a case not of looking for the best game...but the best game. Not the perfect game, but the game that comes closest.
Folks tend to get pretty pissy when they hear about a new game, focus on what they think it might include, get hyped about certain features...only to find out that those features are a small part of the game. It's more painful than not having any games having some of the features you want.
It's like telling somebody - hey, I've got a great piece of cake here - want a piece? You say sure and as you reach for it, they hit you with a baseball bat. You exclaim WTF!?!?!? They say that each piece of cake comes with a free whack of a baseball bat to the head. Then on top of that, you have to finish the cake (including getting hit with the baseball bat) - for the chance of getting a glass that may or may not have some milk in it. That's how MMOs feel to me these days.
But oddly enough, I feel worse about single player games...meh, sometimes I wish I had kept my old computers as well as my old games. Sure, the graphics might look like Hell compared to what we have today - but nobody's going to make those games with today's graphics. I'd rather have to deal with the crappy graphics for games that I can enjoy hours on end... than to continue risking reaching for that piece of cake only to get hit by a baseball bat.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Someone outside of the gaming generation would look at us and ask, "Are these guys are being trained to be happy playing games instead of real life?"
No one is being trained to do anything, people simply do things that stimulate the brain, releasing the chemicals that make you feel satisfied (can't remember the name) when someone becomes "addicted" to a style or specific action that satisfies them it's hard and sometimes impossible to become satisfied any other way. We're not being "trained", its just natural. Unfortunately.
You know, you actually make a great case for why folks are trained rather than they are not trained. I mean, you've basically described a Pavlovian response for the release of Serotonin and Dopamine with the understanding of the tolerance issues involved in the addiction.
So while one can make the case that the underlying process is natural, one cannot make that same case for the overall events that have transpired - it completely ignores the artificial means by which we've reached this point.
The drug dealer and drug addict analogy comes to mind. Some people in MMOs...well, they had a low tolerance. So they needed it bigger and they needed it faster. Then bigger. Then faster.
The developers know this - they're not stupid. They've looked around at how things are changing overall. They're furthering the process instead of fighting against it...it's a way for them to make money. Hell, it's one of the reasons that F2P makes so much money - working off of that same addiction.
Some people are being trained...in the sense they're being taught that in order to get that good feeling - bigger and faster, they need to follow a certain path...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
And I thought the good members didn't try assuming something that isn't even in the post they read. Progression isn't a "negative", neither is playing a game for fun. People should be happy that there are multiple types of MMOs to play now, but as you can see, they aren't. Unlike fans of most genres (excluding FPS titles), many MMO players seem to think that if you can't enjoy one MMO as much as another, then it fails.
As an aside, it's all relative to the person in question. I knew people in WoW who had every piece of leet gear possible but didn't do a damn thing in real life but sit there. It doesn't mean they have some desire to better themselves, it's because it's a video game and it's easy compared to moving their ass.
You see this is exactly the opposite, all major mmo these days are for the solo, fast and easy crownd, leveling became easier than ever, the journey is fast and not very challenging. Anyone can have anything without taking the time to get it. But where are the games for those who like a long and hard journey? There is none execpt the old ones.
Which is where it gets into the "Doubling Plus Factor" - so to speak, and makes it pretty tough on devs.
Say you start off with a standard Fantasy MMORPG. Somebody wants a Sci-Fi MMORPG. You're now at two games. Somebody wants faster leveling and more focus on endgame. Not everybody does though. So now you have two Fantasy games and two Sci-Fi games. Somebody wants more action orientated combat. Not everybody does though. But still, now you're at four Fantasy games and four Sci-Fi games. Somebody wants a Superhero game. Tada, you've got four Superhero games. Somebody wants another genre, bam - four of them. Then you get into features that folks want and others do not want - BAM - for each game, you've got two. Somebody wants dungeon finder - somebody doesn't - you're at 8 Fantasy, 8 Sci-Fi, and 8 Superhero games. Somebody wants Post Apocalyptic - bam - wait, Post Apocalyptic means different things... who knows how many games you'll end up with there? Heh, throw in Sandbox versions of those games and....
...sometimes we have to settle. Or we just walk away.
I believe it's one of the reasons that so many folks are always looking for the next game - they're looking for the game that does not exist. It's version #248 of 3257. It may or may never exist.
You are mixing things here. I dont talk about themes, fantasy or sci-fi has nothing to do about the fact that all major mmo have the same kind of progression. Solo fast and easy.
Fast action combat or slow tab targeting doesnt matter to me, if the game offers me some real character progression, with a lots of thing to do and yeah i want time sink features.
In FFXI i used to do fishing for hours to get money or cook to get my kebab. I was breeding chocobos to get one with a different colors than yellow. I could spent days playing without going get some lvl.
After month of playing my highest job level was 43. I did played more than 4 hours a days. I didnt even scrath the surface.
I cant do this in modern mmo. After somes weeks all the maps are reveal, you are max lvl and you grind gears...or i heard now it's cosmetics o well. Game over i think.
It's not a mixing thing. I was just looking beyond you. You're an example though - you're looking for version #26 of 3257. You want a game with a certain set of features. There is going to be somebody else that wants something else. There are going to be people where the theme matters - so again - there would need to be countless games to handle everything that everybody wants.
So we generally have to compromise, we have to settle, or we have to walk away.
Maybe Game X has 60% of what you want - which is more than Game Y or Game Z. So you play Game X, but you're never really happy with Game X. Perhaps Game R once did it for you, but that was ten years ago and Game R still looks like a ten year old game. You want Game U, which is Game R with an updated graphics engine - but that's mostly Game R still. Odds are though, that Game U is not going to exist.
It's a case not of looking for the best game...but the best game. Not the perfect game, but the game that comes closest.
Folks tend to get pretty pissy when they hear about a new game, focus on what they think it might include, get hyped about certain features...only to find out that those features are a small part of the game. It's more painful than not having any games having some of the features you want.
It's like telling somebody - hey, I've got a great piece of cake here - want a piece? You say sure and as you reach for it, they hit you with a baseball bat. You exclaim WTF!?!?!? They say that each piece of cake comes with a free whack of a baseball bat to the head. Then on top of that, you have to finish the cake (including getting hit with the baseball bat) - for the chance of getting a glass that may or may not have some milk in it. That's how MMOs feel to me these days.
But oddly enough, I feel worse about single player games...meh, sometimes I wish I had kept my old computers as well as my old games. Sure, the graphics might look like Hell compared to what we have today - but nobody's going to make those games with today's graphics. I'd rather have to deal with the crappy graphics for games that I can enjoy hours on end... than to continue risking reaching for that piece of cake only to get hit by a baseball bat.
You know you write all this text to say almost nothing, all you do is to shift the discussion so the real subject here is lost.
First let rewind to the begin, you said in a earlier reply '' People should be happy that there are multiple types of MMOs to play now, but as you can see, they aren't'' and i replyed to you that (in short) all modern mmo offer the same things this is why im not happy.
And you you reply with all this mumbo jumbo who mean nothing about game X and game B, that im looking for version 245 or whatever.. Seriously where do you want to go with this?
I think i was clear enough about my opinion on the real subject of this thread. Now i dont think this discution is going no where.
And I thought the good members didn't try assuming something that isn't even in the post they read. Progression isn't a "negative", neither is playing a game for fun. People should be happy that there are multiple types of MMOs to play now, but as you can see, they aren't. Unlike fans of most genres (excluding FPS titles), many MMO players seem to think that if you can't enjoy one MMO as much as another, then it fails.
As an aside, it's all relative to the person in question. I knew people in WoW who had every piece of leet gear possible but didn't do a damn thing in real life but sit there. It doesn't mean they have some desire to better themselves, it's because it's a video game and it's easy compared to moving their ass.
You see this is exactly the opposite, all major mmo these days are for the solo, fast and easy crownd, leveling became easier than ever, the journey is fast and not very challenging. Anyone can have anything without taking the time to get it. But where are the games for those who like a long and hard journey? There is none execpt the old ones.
Which is where it gets into the "Doubling Plus Factor" - so to speak, and makes it pretty tough on devs.
Say you start off with a standard Fantasy MMORPG. Somebody wants a Sci-Fi MMORPG. You're now at two games. Somebody wants faster leveling and more focus on endgame. Not everybody does though. So now you have two Fantasy games and two Sci-Fi games. Somebody wants more action orientated combat. Not everybody does though. But still, now you're at four Fantasy games and four Sci-Fi games. Somebody wants a Superhero game. Tada, you've got four Superhero games. Somebody wants another genre, bam - four of them. Then you get into features that folks want and others do not want - BAM - for each game, you've got two. Somebody wants dungeon finder - somebody doesn't - you're at 8 Fantasy, 8 Sci-Fi, and 8 Superhero games. Somebody wants Post Apocalyptic - bam - wait, Post Apocalyptic means different things... who knows how many games you'll end up with there? Heh, throw in Sandbox versions of those games and....
...sometimes we have to settle. Or we just walk away.
I believe it's one of the reasons that so many folks are always looking for the next game - they're looking for the game that does not exist. It's version #248 of 3257. It may or may never exist.
You are mixing things here. I dont talk about themes, fantasy or sci-fi has nothing to do about the fact that all major mmo have the same kind of progression. Solo fast and easy.
Fast action combat or slow tab targeting doesnt matter to me, if the game offers me some real character progression, with a lots of thing to do and yeah i want time sink features.
In FFXI i used to do fishing for hours to get money or cook to get my kebab. I was breeding chocobos to get one with a different colors than yellow. I could spent days playing without going get some lvl.
After month of playing my highest job level was 43. I did played more than 4 hours a days. I didnt even scrath the surface.
I cant do this in modern mmo. After somes weeks all the maps are reveal, you are max lvl and you grind gears...or i heard now it's cosmetics o well. Game over i think.
It's not a mixing thing. I was just looking beyond you. You're an example though - you're looking for version #26 of 3257. You want a game with a certain set of features. There is going to be somebody else that wants something else. There are going to be people where the theme matters - so again - there would need to be countless games to handle everything that everybody wants.
So we generally have to compromise, we have to settle, or we have to walk away.
Maybe Game X has 60% of what you want - which is more than Game Y or Game Z. So you play Game X, but you're never really happy with Game X. Perhaps Game R once did it for you, but that was ten years ago and Game R still looks like a ten year old game. You want Game U, which is Game R with an updated graphics engine - but that's mostly Game R still. Odds are though, that Game U is not going to exist.
It's a case not of looking for the best game...but the best game. Not the perfect game, but the game that comes closest.
Folks tend to get pretty pissy when they hear about a new game, focus on what they think it might include, get hyped about certain features...only to find out that those features are a small part of the game. It's more painful than not having any games having some of the features you want.
It's like telling somebody - hey, I've got a great piece of cake here - want a piece? You say sure and as you reach for it, they hit you with a baseball bat. You exclaim WTF!?!?!? They say that each piece of cake comes with a free whack of a baseball bat to the head. Then on top of that, you have to finish the cake (including getting hit with the baseball bat) - for the chance of getting a glass that may or may not have some milk in it. That's how MMOs feel to me these days.
But oddly enough, I feel worse about single player games...meh, sometimes I wish I had kept my old computers as well as my old games. Sure, the graphics might look like Hell compared to what we have today - but nobody's going to make those games with today's graphics. I'd rather have to deal with the crappy graphics for games that I can enjoy hours on end... than to continue risking reaching for that piece of cake only to get hit by a baseball bat.
You know you write all this text to say almost nothing, all you do is to shift the discussion so the real subject here is lost.
First let rewind to the begin, you said in a earlier reply '' People should be happy that there are multiple types of MMOs to play now, but as you can see, they aren't'' and i replyed to you that (in short) all modern mmo offer the same things this is why im not happy.
And you you reply with all this mumbo jumbo who mean nothing about game X and game B, that im looking for version 245 or whatever.. Seriously where do you want to go with this?
I think i was clear enough about my opinion on the real subject of this thread. Now i dont think this discution is going no where.
Um, I did not say "People should be happy that there are multiple types of MMOs to play now, but as you can see, they aren't"
Since you cannot even follow who said what, I honestly am not suprised that you cannot follow what I've bene saying. Even though it's the simplest thing to grasp... not everybody wants the same thing. You're obviously not happy with where the majority of the games have gone. In order for those games to appeal to you, they would need to create an additional copy of the game - tada, doubling. Two people want different things, then you need two different games. You add a third person that might want some of what the first does and some of what the second does, you're looking at a third game - tada, doubling plus.
That you could point out where certain games are a certain and then say you want something else...without being able to comprehend that it would require two games to satisfy both yourself and those that like it the way it is...is mind boggling.
It's very unlikely that there's going to be a perfect game for anybody - people go with what come's the closest. If there's nothing close enough, then they will take a break from the genre. While McDonald's might not be a person's first choice for chicken, if it's on the way home and the chicken place is out of the way - they may just make that compromise. Now if they're looking to get a steak, mashed potatoes, and a beer - they're likely to go somewhere else.
How can you not get that?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Why bother with 99% of your thread when you could of just wrote: how can we force the MMO community to like GW2 because i like it.
You can't.
It might be a matter of perspective, but I felt the OP was asking more on how to get folks not to complain about it - than about liking it. The OP found something they like...and there are folks complaining about it - trying to change it. I saw it as a defensive post rather than a marketing post.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I have not read the entire thread but i got this to say..
Progression should be part of the fun, it always has been for me.
In all the MMORPGs I have played even Darkfall I have enjoyed my character progression infact i would say character progression is one of my favourite things about MMORPGs... tho less so with recent themepark games as characte progression is way too fast..
Originally posted by ViperHoundz Are MMO players trained to play for progression rather than for enjoyment?
Lets take a step back, If you played and enjoyed Rpg's prior to switching to mmorpgs then you would appreciate how much progression and stat building is staple.
However, It's my belief that most people that want 'fun casual games' didn't, or don't like rpg's in the first place.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
The OP talks like their is no progression in GW2 lol,like the game is all about just having fun and not worrying about better items/armour.
So OP are you telling me that you are still running around in your level 1 armour not caring about getting better stats because you are having to much fun.Are you telling me that you would play GW2 even if it gave you no rewards or better items as you progress.
GW2 is like any other MMO,it's a tredmill of proggression to get better shinny items,have you even reach level 80 lol.
You like GW2 and bully for you but don't assume that anyone who dosent share your views is not having fun.
Why are they seperate? Progression for me is enjoyment.
To use a real world analogy: I could stay home and enjoy myself all day by playing games, kicking back and relaxing. But there comes a time when it gets dull, sooner rather than later. If I'm constantly out developing and changing then life is always exciting, despite any hardships. Same plays out, to an extent, with MMOs (for me at least).
GW2 doesn't have an illusion of any meaningful progression what so ever to me, therefore, imo it's worthless.
Ah needz mah progressions in RPGs, otherwise... you just got the same thing as an FPS. And FPSs are always more fun than a tab targeting MMO.
Why is it an either/or. Progression is generally a fact or life, we are trained almost from birth to try and be better. Games are also about enjoyment.
But sometimes they are the same.
Why can't it be that MMO games enjoy progressing? I know I do. I like seeing my character get stronger and better.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
It is genetically coded into us or we will die out as a species. We need it from the day we are born we are always striving to become better. Those of us who don't fail at life I am afraid. Game goals reflect this and those that do not probably will find it harder to keep people and it is going to be super hard to change that which we need as a species to continue to domineer over others on this planet.
So I got lvl 80 in GW2 today and had over 1000 achievement points. I was over ten lvls for going back to my main quest storyline and had over 70% map explored. I also have a couple alts in the 20s. I know folks who rushed to lvls 70-80 obtaining half as many points.
Lots of people playing mmo(rpgs) are seeking continual character progression. They may have the rush to end game mentality and then believe the game opens up from there. These players may skip the storyline dialogue, focus on combat - instead of alternate methods of experience - exploring, collecting, crafting, jump puzzles, or just enjoying the game with an alt. Pretty much folks like to be better than everyone else.
Exploring the game and just doing all the various DEs is good for me.
Since folks are making analogies, I'll go with the Karate belt progression. Start learning Karate as a small kid, and in most places you'll be accumulating all these belts (oh progression) rather fast. Making black belts who posess minimal skill and have hardly received the strength and conditioning to do anything. Why is this? Because the kid needs to feel like he/she is achieving a noticeable, for this purpose visual, gear advancement. Otherwise they are going to quit and find another instructor / gym where you can advance at such a rate. Instead of learning such karate skills for numerous other reasons that all may be considered progression, the kid learns it to obtain a belt/status/title that serves as distinguishing him/her amongst others. Gotta get the best gear
So it all really ends up being a discussion on what type of progression is being advanced, gear based (and not enjoying the rest of the game) or something like map exploration and enjoying more of the game in GW2.
Originally posted by cheyane It is genetically coded into us or we will die out as a species. We need it from the day we are born we are always striving to become better. Those of us who don't fail at life I am afraid. Game goals reflect this and those that do not probably will find it harder to keep people and it is going to be super hard to change that which we need as a species to continue to domineer over others on this planet.
Pretty much explains why the world is so f*cked up, but I won't go into that now
Yes definitely the stuff of scifi nightmares and in fact we are currently living a scifi nightmare. We cannot however deny what drives us and that other argument way too controversial but I do agree we have frakked our planet.
Originally posted by Aelious An analogy came to me just reading the title.
Pudding can be eaten with a spoon or a fork. If you ate pudding with a fork your whole life why would you suddenly switch to a spoon if a fork still works just fine?
Mmmm pudding...
LMAO,because forks are harder to clean?You can poke your lip with a fork but a spoon is safe
When you make a switch it shows you might be advancing and getting smarter.IMagine if we still used paper cups for telephones?I would hate to have to crank start my car every morning.I am too lazy to toss my remote for a hand dial that i have to get up out of my chair to turn.I think i like my cable now,rabbit ears no thanks.
mmm banana pudding
Kidding aside,i am not trained for anything,i play a game the way i want to or not at all.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Why can't it be that MMO games enjoy progressing? I know I do. I like seeing my character get stronger and better.
There's a difference between gear progression and character progression though.
My char earns some XP, improves his stats... my character has gotten stronger and better.
My char finds a shiny sword... my character has not gotten stronger nor better. He's got a new shiny sword. It may improve his stats, but without that sword - he's the same ol' character.
That gear provides such a bonus to stats...that it is a form of progression...is mind boggling to some.
Now doubt there are plenty that like that - that's fine. Not every game needs to be that way though. Some folks would like actual character progression...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Originally posted by ViperHoundz Are MMO players trained to play for progression rather than for enjoyment?
Lets take a step back, If you played and enjoyed Rpg's prior to switching to mmorpgs then you would appreciate how much progression and stat building is staple.
However, It's my belief that most people that want 'fun casual games' didn't, or don't like rpg's in the first place.
Boom! Headshot! You've nailed it completely. They certainly didn't care for the early models that were put forth, and once Blizzard hit on the magic formula to appeal to a huge playerbase most Developers have been continually refining their products to make them ever more casual with GW2 being the ultimate by eliminating meaningful progression (in terms of power) at end game from the equation.
They did the same thing in the first game, and quickly realized that 20 levels was not enough of a progression curve, a large segement of the market quickly discarded the title because of the lack of it. Hence they added more of it back in for the 2nd (recall fans of the 1st game actually bemoaned this) to try and appeal to the more progression focused player.
RPG's and by extension MMORPG's are by their very nature all about progression at their core, remove it and you've got some other sort of game, I like to call them MMOAPG's (action or adventure) playing games, more like Mist rather than Balders Gate. I won't compromise on this point, regardless how many people try to redefine the genre.
To bastardize a favorite movie quote.
"I will not sacrifice the MMORPG. We've made too many compromises already; too many retreats. They invade our space and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, no further! And *I* will make them pay for what they've done."
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Being "Trained" for progression isn't the problem.
The problem is leveling in games has become so fast that you have way too much time between max level and the next expansion. The game has to give players something to do which leads to gear progression.
EVE is probably the only game that does it right. Even if you played for ten years you still wouldn't max out your skills. You are always progressing so you just play the game.
Not just Eve. Some older MMOs did it right too and is why many want some reiteration of them to come back. For me, it was FFXI and how it handled progression. It's changed now, as levels are really easy to get, but before they made all those changes, I could play that game for years and still never see everything or finish everything I wanted to and this was good.
What is with these loaded thread titles? Progression isn't a negative and if anything, it's the main reason I even play MMORPGs or sRPGs or games with similar mechanics. Not alone, sure, but without a sense of progression, I sure wouldn't be as drawn to the game. I can apply this to FPS, RTS, Racing etc.
Comments
It's the meatier mob with a beefier bat mentality. I think STO does it the worst because of their replayablity of missions. You can literally fight level 50 versions of the level 1 mobs. I mean - the stats are boosted of course - but it's the same mob...same look, same name, etc...just meatier and beefier.
Many games will at least change the model and the name, but in the end - it's still the meatier mob with the beefier bat. That level 100 boss that rules a kingdom is no smarter than the level 10 boss that sleeps in a tent in a cave. There are as many "guys" defending the tent guy as the kingdom guy. They just have more health and do more damage. Meh...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Dont forget that modern mmo ( i dont dare put the rpg) are not for rpg fans, they are for fast action solo gamers now. Thy why we dont have real character progression and the long journey who come with it.
You are mixing things here. I dont talk about themes, fantasy or sci-fi has nothing to do about the fact that all major mmo have the same kind of progression. Solo fast and easy.
Fast action combat or slow tab targeting doesnt matter to me, if the game offers me some real character progression, with a lots of thing to do and yeah i want time sink features.
In FFXI i used to do fishing for hours to get money or cook to get my kebab. I was breeding chocobos to get one with a different colors than yellow. I could spent days playing without going get some lvl.
After month of playing my highest job level was 43. I did played more than 4 hours a days. I didnt even scrath the surface.
I cant do this in modern mmo. After somes weeks all the maps are reveal, you are max lvl and you grind gears...or i heard now it's cosmetics o well. Game over i think.
Someone outside of the gaming generation would look at us and ask, "Are these guys are being trained to be happy playing games instead of real life?"
No one is being trained to do anything, people simply do things that stimulate the brain, releasing the chemicals that make you feel satisfied (can't remember the name) when someone becomes "addicted" to a style or specific action that satisfies them it's hard and sometimes impossible to become satisfied any other way. We're not being "trained", its just natural. Unfortunately.
It's not a mixing thing. I was just looking beyond you. You're an example though - you're looking for version #26 of 3257. You want a game with a certain set of features. There is going to be somebody else that wants something else. There are going to be people where the theme matters - so again - there would need to be countless games to handle everything that everybody wants.
So we generally have to compromise, we have to settle, or we have to walk away.
Maybe Game X has 60% of what you want - which is more than Game Y or Game Z. So you play Game X, but you're never really happy with Game X. Perhaps Game R once did it for you, but that was ten years ago and Game R still looks like a ten year old game. You want Game U, which is Game R with an updated graphics engine - but that's mostly Game R still. Odds are though, that Game U is not going to exist.
It's a case not of looking for the best game...but the best game. Not the perfect game, but the game that comes closest.
Folks tend to get pretty pissy when they hear about a new game, focus on what they think it might include, get hyped about certain features...only to find out that those features are a small part of the game. It's more painful than not having any games having some of the features you want.
It's like telling somebody - hey, I've got a great piece of cake here - want a piece? You say sure and as you reach for it, they hit you with a baseball bat. You exclaim WTF!?!?!? They say that each piece of cake comes with a free whack of a baseball bat to the head. Then on top of that, you have to finish the cake (including getting hit with the baseball bat) - for the chance of getting a glass that may or may not have some milk in it. That's how MMOs feel to me these days.
But oddly enough, I feel worse about single player games...meh, sometimes I wish I had kept my old computers as well as my old games. Sure, the graphics might look like Hell compared to what we have today - but nobody's going to make those games with today's graphics. I'd rather have to deal with the crappy graphics for games that I can enjoy hours on end... than to continue risking reaching for that piece of cake only to get hit by a baseball bat.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
You know, you actually make a great case for why folks are trained rather than they are not trained. I mean, you've basically described a Pavlovian response for the release of Serotonin and Dopamine with the understanding of the tolerance issues involved in the addiction.
So while one can make the case that the underlying process is natural, one cannot make that same case for the overall events that have transpired - it completely ignores the artificial means by which we've reached this point.
The drug dealer and drug addict analogy comes to mind. Some people in MMOs...well, they had a low tolerance. So they needed it bigger and they needed it faster. Then bigger. Then faster.
The developers know this - they're not stupid. They've looked around at how things are changing overall. They're furthering the process instead of fighting against it...it's a way for them to make money. Hell, it's one of the reasons that F2P makes so much money - working off of that same addiction.
Some people are being trained...in the sense they're being taught that in order to get that good feeling - bigger and faster, they need to follow a certain path...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
You know you write all this text to say almost nothing, all you do is to shift the discussion so the real subject here is lost.
First let rewind to the begin, you said in a earlier reply '' People should be happy that there are multiple types of MMOs to play now, but as you can see, they aren't'' and i replyed to you that (in short) all modern mmo offer the same things this is why im not happy.
And you you reply with all this mumbo jumbo who mean nothing about game X and game B, that im looking for version 245 or whatever.. Seriously where do you want to go with this?
I think i was clear enough about my opinion on the real subject of this thread. Now i dont think this discution is going no where.
Why bother with 99% of your thread when you could of just wrote: how can we force the MMO community to like GW2 because i like it.
You can't.
Um, I did not say "People should be happy that there are multiple types of MMOs to play now, but as you can see, they aren't"
Since you cannot even follow who said what, I honestly am not suprised that you cannot follow what I've bene saying. Even though it's the simplest thing to grasp... not everybody wants the same thing. You're obviously not happy with where the majority of the games have gone. In order for those games to appeal to you, they would need to create an additional copy of the game - tada, doubling. Two people want different things, then you need two different games. You add a third person that might want some of what the first does and some of what the second does, you're looking at a third game - tada, doubling plus.
That you could point out where certain games are a certain and then say you want something else...without being able to comprehend that it would require two games to satisfy both yourself and those that like it the way it is...is mind boggling.
It's very unlikely that there's going to be a perfect game for anybody - people go with what come's the closest. If there's nothing close enough, then they will take a break from the genre. While McDonald's might not be a person's first choice for chicken, if it's on the way home and the chicken place is out of the way - they may just make that compromise. Now if they're looking to get a steak, mashed potatoes, and a beer - they're likely to go somewhere else.
How can you not get that?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
It might be a matter of perspective, but I felt the OP was asking more on how to get folks not to complain about it - than about liking it. The OP found something they like...and there are folks complaining about it - trying to change it. I saw it as a defensive post rather than a marketing post.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
@OP
I have not read the entire thread but i got this to say..
Progression should be part of the fun, it always has been for me.
In all the MMORPGs I have played even Darkfall I have enjoyed my character progression infact i would say character progression is one of my favourite things about MMORPGs... tho less so with recent themepark games as characte progression is way too fast..
Lets take a step back, If you played and enjoyed Rpg's prior to switching to mmorpgs then you would appreciate how much progression and stat building is staple.
However, It's my belief that most people that want 'fun casual games' didn't, or don't like rpg's in the first place.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
The OP talks like their is no progression in GW2 lol,like the game is all about just having fun and not worrying about better items/armour.
So OP are you telling me that you are still running around in your level 1 armour not caring about getting better stats because you are having to much fun.Are you telling me that you would play GW2 even if it gave you no rewards or better items as you progress.
GW2 is like any other MMO,it's a tredmill of proggression to get better shinny items,have you even reach level 80 lol.
You like GW2 and bully for you but don't assume that anyone who dosent share your views is not having fun.
Why are they seperate? Progression for me is enjoyment.
To use a real world analogy: I could stay home and enjoy myself all day by playing games, kicking back and relaxing. But there comes a time when it gets dull, sooner rather than later. If I'm constantly out developing and changing then life is always exciting, despite any hardships. Same plays out, to an extent, with MMOs (for me at least).
GW2 doesn't have an illusion of any meaningful progression what so ever to me, therefore, imo it's worthless.
Ah needz mah progressions in RPGs, otherwise... you just got the same thing as an FPS. And FPSs are always more fun than a tab targeting MMO.
Why is it an either/or. Progression is generally a fact or life, we are trained almost from birth to try and be better. Games are also about enjoyment.
But sometimes they are the same.
Why can't it be that MMO games enjoy progressing? I know I do. I like seeing my character get stronger and better.
So I got lvl 80 in GW2 today and had over 1000 achievement points. I was over ten lvls for going back to my main quest storyline and had over 70% map explored. I also have a couple alts in the 20s. I know folks who rushed to lvls 70-80 obtaining half as many points.
Lots of people playing mmo(rpgs) are seeking continual character progression. They may have the rush to end game mentality and then believe the game opens up from there. These players may skip the storyline dialogue, focus on combat - instead of alternate methods of experience - exploring, collecting, crafting, jump puzzles, or just enjoying the game with an alt. Pretty much folks like to be better than everyone else.
Exploring the game and just doing all the various DEs is good for me.
Since folks are making analogies, I'll go with the Karate belt progression. Start learning Karate as a small kid, and in most places you'll be accumulating all these belts (oh progression) rather fast. Making black belts who posess minimal skill and have hardly received the strength and conditioning to do anything. Why is this? Because the kid needs to feel like he/she is achieving a noticeable, for this purpose visual, gear advancement. Otherwise they are going to quit and find another instructor / gym where you can advance at such a rate. Instead of learning such karate skills for numerous other reasons that all may be considered progression, the kid learns it to obtain a belt/status/title that serves as distinguishing him/her amongst others. Gotta get the best gear
So it all really ends up being a discussion on what type of progression is being advanced, gear based (and not enjoying the rest of the game) or something like map exploration and enjoying more of the game in GW2.
Pretty much explains why the world is so f*cked up, but I won't go into that now
LMAO,because forks are harder to clean?You can poke your lip with a fork but a spoon is safe
When you make a switch it shows you might be advancing and getting smarter.IMagine if we still used paper cups for telephones?I would hate to have to crank start my car every morning.I am too lazy to toss my remote for a hand dial that i have to get up out of my chair to turn.I think i like my cable now,rabbit ears no thanks.
mmm banana pudding
Kidding aside,i am not trained for anything,i play a game the way i want to or not at all.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
There's a difference between gear progression and character progression though.
My char earns some XP, improves his stats... my character has gotten stronger and better.
My char finds a shiny sword... my character has not gotten stronger nor better. He's got a new shiny sword. It may improve his stats, but without that sword - he's the same ol' character.
That gear provides such a bonus to stats...that it is a form of progression...is mind boggling to some.
Now doubt there are plenty that like that - that's fine. Not every game needs to be that way though. Some folks would like actual character progression...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
That's why you see all these "what's the point of doing xxx" posts about gw2.
Fortunately I heavily played daoc and to a lesser degree coh, so I'm used to not needing a phatlewt gear carrot and can play for the fun of it.
Boom! Headshot! You've nailed it completely. They certainly didn't care for the early models that were put forth, and once Blizzard hit on the magic formula to appeal to a huge playerbase most Developers have been continually refining their products to make them ever more casual with GW2 being the ultimate by eliminating meaningful progression (in terms of power) at end game from the equation.
They did the same thing in the first game, and quickly realized that 20 levels was not enough of a progression curve, a large segement of the market quickly discarded the title because of the lack of it. Hence they added more of it back in for the 2nd (recall fans of the 1st game actually bemoaned this) to try and appeal to the more progression focused player.
RPG's and by extension MMORPG's are by their very nature all about progression at their core, remove it and you've got some other sort of game, I like to call them MMOAPG's (action or adventure) playing games, more like Mist rather than Balders Gate. I won't compromise on this point, regardless how many people try to redefine the genre.
To bastardize a favorite movie quote.
"I will not sacrifice the MMORPG. We've made too many compromises already; too many retreats. They invade our space and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, no further! And *I* will make them pay for what they've done."
With apologies to Jean Luc Picard......
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The whole "character progression vs fun" dichotomy is ridiculous. It's simply an implicit criticism of character progression. How about:
Not just Eve. Some older MMOs did it right too and is why many want some reiteration of them to come back. For me, it was FFXI and how it handled progression. It's changed now, as levels are really easy to get, but before they made all those changes, I could play that game for years and still never see everything or finish everything I wanted to and this was good.
What is with these loaded thread titles? Progression isn't a negative and if anything, it's the main reason I even play MMORPGs or sRPGs or games with similar mechanics. Not alone, sure, but without a sense of progression, I sure wouldn't be as drawn to the game. I can apply this to FPS, RTS, Racing etc.