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Are MMO players trained to play for progression...

ViperHoundzViperHoundz glendale, AZPosts: 46Member

https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/Are-MMO-players-trained-to-play-for-progression 

 

 

Are MMO players trained to play for progression rather than for enjoyment?

Subscription MMOs have, over the years, used inflating gear rewards to keep players in the game, because progression is exciting. There’s no denying that, I think everyone likes seeing their character get stronger.

However, I think in recent years we’ve come to a point where we see a growing number of people who play solely for the purpose of seeing their progression. Once they have the strongest gear with the prettiest text color or whatever, many of them simply stop playing until there’s even stronger gear to progress towards again. We all know players like this.

I question if these players even like the game they play as opposed to the feeling of getting something newer and shinier.

And why I bring this question up, is because I also question whether or not this kind of player is worth attempting to retain in the GW2 community as they are.

I would hate to see hard work on the part of the developer go into content that only a small fraction of the community will do, and even then only for about a week until they’ve progressed past it and go back to complaining.

To answer my own question in the title bar, I think the modern MMO player is trained to play games they don’t enjoy as long as there’s progression. So here’s another question: how do either the developers—or us as a community—break players of this mindset, and remind them that, well, gameplay can actually be enjoyed on its own? That exploring and playing the game IS doing content, even if there’s no gear progression? How do we make these players get it about Guild Wars 2?

Or can we at all?

 

Pretty good topic going on in the GW2 forums. I tend to agree with him.

«134

Comments

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Brandon, FLPosts: 3,649Member
    They're trained for progression...but long before they ever sit down at their first computer.

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,853Member Uncommon
    An analogy came to me just reading the title.

    Pudding can be eaten with a spoon or a fork. If you ate pudding with a fork your whole life why would you suddenly switch to a spoon if a fork still works just fine?

    Mmmm pudding...
  • nsignificnsignific ljPosts: 212Member

    Progression in those terms is a fact of life. You grow, you learn, you aspire to new, better things and ideas.

    I guress there's also people who sit on the couch all day and watch TV and I suppose they need a game to play as well.

    It's nice that the MMO market caters to everyone now that we have GW2.

    Oh my, I do make a good point, even if I do say so myself ;)

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Brandon, FLPosts: 3,649Member
    Originally posted by nsignific

    Progression in those terms is a fact of life. You grow, you learn, you aspire to new, better things and ideas.

    I guress there's also people who sit on the couch all day and watch TV and I suppose they need a game to play as well.

    It's nice that the MMO market caters to everyone now that we have GW2.

    Oh my, I do make a good point, even if I do say so myself ;)

    Yes, there are people that know what's important in life and those that stand in line waiting for a new iPhone... yep, life is full of those examples of people chasing the shiny.  I'm not sure I'd say they're actually aspiring to anything though...

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • nsignificnsignific ljPosts: 212Member
    Originally posted by VirusDancer

    Yes, there are people that know what's important in life and those that stand in line waiting for a new iPhone... yep, life is full of those examples of people chasing the shiny.  I'm not sure I'd say they're actually aspiring to anything though...

    That would be people who fall prey to marketing. Apple is amazing at getting their customers to promote their products - unlike an MMO being promoted furiously by members of this site... :P

    Man, it's OK, casuals have a place in this world, who am I to deny you fun - and why would I want to? Some like a challenge in everything we do, be it life or something much less important - video games.

    I'm just the kind of person who likes the competitive aspec - if I'm playing sports and the other person(s) say let's just play for fun and not keep score I usually get the urge to walk away and do something more interesting (but don't because I'm way too polite).

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    Originally posted by nsignific

    Progression in those terms is a fact of life. You grow, you learn, you aspire to new, better things and ideas.

    I guress there's also people who sit on the couch all day and watch TV and I suppose they need a game to play as well.

    It's nice that the MMO market caters to everyone now that we have GW2.

    Oh my, I do make a good point, even if I do say so myself ;)

    What's your point exactly?  That people who play GW2 are couch potatoes and people who play WoW aren't?  I wish you the sincerest luck making that one stick.

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Brandon, FLPosts: 3,649Member
    Originally posted by nsignific
    Originally posted by VirusDancer

    Yes, there are people that know what's important in life and those that stand in line waiting for a new iPhone... yep, life is full of those examples of people chasing the shiny.  I'm not sure I'd say they're actually aspiring to anything though...

    That would be people who fall prey to marketing. Apple is amazing at getting their customers to promote their products - unlike an MMO being promoted furiously by members of this site... :P

    Man, it's OK, casuals have a place in this world, who am I to deny you fun - and why would I want to? Some like a challenge in everything we do, be it life or something much less important - video games.

    I'm just the kind of person who likes the competitive aspec - if I'm playing sports and the other person(s) say let's just play for fun and not keep score I usually get the urge to walk away and do something more interesting (but don't because I'm way too polite).

    If you like a competitive aspect, why do you champion the equivalent of getting a shiny star because you managed to tie your shoes each day last week?

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • nsignificnsignific ljPosts: 212Member
    Originally posted by Eir_S

    What's your point exactly?  That people who play GW2 are couch potatoes and people who play WoW aren't?  I wish you the sincerest luck making that one stick.

    I'm sorry, this is embarrasing, but I thought the good members of mmorpg.com read the posts they're responding to?

    My point was in response to a post presenting progression as a bad thing, as something to be ridiculed if observed as trait in other people.

    My point was to point out how untrue that is by presenting you with the opposite - the lack of aspiration to grow and progress.

    If you find yourself in that, as you must, if you promote progressions as a negative, then that's on you. Irony is sometimes hard, I know.

  • nsignificnsignific ljPosts: 212Member
    Originally posted by VirusDancer

    If you like a competitive aspect, why do you champion the equivalent of getting a shiny star because you managed to tie your shoes each day last week?

    Maybe "other games" have more to them then just "shiny stars", for example arena ladder systems? I know, it's much easier to latch on to your favourite peeve and argue that point, but you know, er... You can't.

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Brandon, FLPosts: 3,649Member

    An Analogy - Real World Coloring Books vs. MMO Progression Coloring Books

    Real World Coloring Books

    You're given the complete box of crayons.  You're given a simple picture to color.  Then you're given a more difficult picture to color.  The pictures increase increase in difficulty to color - they become more intricate.

    MMO Progression Coloring Books

    You're given one crayon and a simple picture.  When you complete that picture, you might get a random second crayon.  Say you started with a Red crayon.  For the second picture, not much more difficult than the first picture - you need a Green crayon.  You have to keep coloring the first picture until you get that Green crayon.  Then you can do the second picture.  Yay!

    Yeah, I'm thinking I'd rather go with the first...

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • nsignificnsignific ljPosts: 212Member

    I'm tired of completely owning your faces here, so I'm leaving

     

  • RaysheRayshe London, ONPosts: 1,284Member

    It also depends on what you enjoy, Personally i greatly enjoy beating challenges. The promise of Challenging Content drew me back to WoW when cataclysm came out. Which i will admit was challengeing until the general Fanbase cried about the encounters being too difficult. i also gotta admit its probubly the reason why i love TSW so much. I've only really seen maybe 2 DPS checks per NM run. and i have seen some fights that feel soo impossible you just feel great after completing them. Is this consitered Progression, Yes it is. By the time i manage to finish Slaughterhouse on NM difficulty. Tokyo will probubly have been released.

     

    What it comes down to is what you enjoy. Instant Gratification or The slow growth and defeat of challenges. of course there are others however i will not go into a multiple page long forum post.

    Because i can.
    I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
    Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  • Johnie-MarzJohnie-Marz La Puente, CAPosts: 865Member

    Being "Trained" for progression isn't the problem.

    The problem is leveling in games has become so fast that you have way too much time between max level and the next expansion. The game has to give players something to do which leads to gear progression.

    EVE is probably the only game that does it right. Even if you played for ten years you still wouldn't max out your skills. You are always progressing so you just play the game.

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    Originally posted by nsignific
    Originally posted by Eir_S

    What's your point exactly?  That people who play GW2 are couch potatoes and people who play WoW aren't?  I wish you the sincerest luck making that one stick.

    I'm sorry, this is embarrasing, but I thought the good members of mmorpg.com read the posts they're responding to?

    My point was in response to a post presenting progression as a bad thing, as something to be ridiculed if observed as trait in other people.

    My point was to point out how untrue that is by presenting you with the opposite - the lack of aspiration to grow and progress.

    If you find yourself in that, as you must, if you promote progressions as a negative, then that's on you. Irony is sometimes hard, I know.

    And I thought the good members didn't try assuming something that isn't even in the post they read.  Progression isn't a "negative", neither is playing a game for fun.  People should be happy that there are multiple types of MMOs to play now, but as you can see, they aren't.  Unlike fans of most genres (excluding FPS titles), many MMO players seem to think that if you can't enjoy one MMO as much as another, then it fails.

    As an aside, it's all relative to the person in question.  I knew people in WoW who had every piece of leet gear possible but didn't do a damn thing in real life but sit there.  It doesn't mean they have some desire to better themselves, it's because it's a video game and it's easy compared to moving their ass.

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Brandon, FLPosts: 3,649Member
    Originally posted by nsignific
    Originally posted by VirusDancer

    If you like a competitive aspect, why do you champion the equivalent of getting a shiny star because you managed to tie your shoes each day last week?

    Maybe "other games" have more to them then just "shiny stars", for example arena ladder systems? I know, it's much easier to latch on to your favourite peeve and argue that point, but you know, er... You can't.

    Hrmm....

    Originally posted by nsignific

    I'm sorry, this is embarrasing, but I thought the good members of mmorpg.com read the posts they're responding to?

    ...then that would explain your missing the point.

    The OP stated...

    Originally posted by ViperHoundz

    I question if these players even like the game they play as opposed to the feeling of getting something newer and shinier.

    ...so I guess...

    Originally posted by nsignific

     I'm leaving

    ...is for the best.

     

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • SilokSilok Mascouche, QCPosts: 732Member
    Originally posted by ViperHoundz

    https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/Are-MMO-players-trained-to-play-for-progression 

     

     

    Are MMO players trained to play for progression rather than for enjoyment?

    For me progression is enjoyment, im not talking only about gear progression but leveling too. Yeah i like starting a game and look like a weakling farmer and i like doind the journey and being challenged to get stronger and look more like a warior. What i dont like is that modern mmo have shape the challenging and long journey i want into a parc walk.

    Subscription MMOs have, over the years, used inflating gear rewards to keep players in the game, because progression is exciting. There’s no denying that, I think everyone likes seeing their character get stronger.

    However, I think in recent years we’ve come to a point where we see a growing number of people who play solely for the purpose of seeing their progression. Once they have the strongest gear with the prettiest text color or whatever, many of them simply stop playing until there’s even stronger gear to progress towards again. We all know players like this.

    There you see i dont agree with you, a lot of these people stop playing because they have nothing more to do and for me the reason is not because there is not enough content but because the content is too easy and the leveling is too fast.

    Now many people will say stop rushing and smell the roses, i agree with you but playing a lots doesnt mean rushing, power leveling is rushing and not everyone do that. If i play a lots that because i enjoying myself. I will not restrain myself playing only 1 hours a days so the game can last longer.

    There are a lots of people like me who dont rush but still we have more time to play so i play, i smell the roses but still in almost all modern mmo i will get to max lvl in less than 1 month. Playing more than 4+ hours a day is not rushing is just playing more.

    I question if these players even like the game they play as opposed to the feeling of getting something newer and shinier.

    I dont play what i dont like but i play game i like and i do like getting new gears. Where do i stand in your analogy?

    And why I bring this question up, is because I also question whether or not this kind of player is worth attempting to retain in the GW2 community as they are.

    I dont care about that. Why would you try to retain players who want to leave?

    I would hate to see hard work on the part of the developer go into content that only a small fraction of the community will do, and even then only for about a week until they’ve progressed past it and go back to complaining.

    Devs are there to create game and contents this is there jobs and they are paid for it. I dont know why you hate it if they do more content. Not everyones leave after a week.

    To answer my own question in the title bar, I think the modern MMO player is trained to play games they don’t enjoy as long as there’s progression. So here’s another question: how do either the developers—or us as a community—break players of this mindset, and remind them that, well, gameplay can actually be enjoyed on its own? That exploring and playing the game IS doing content, even if there’s no gear progression? How do we make these players get it about Guild Wars 2?

    You should not put all mmo gamers in the same basket, i dont play mmo i dont enjoy, progression or not.

    Yes exploring is doing content and i like exploring but when i have finish doing this and feel i have seen enough, what should i do? Forcing myself playing? I dont think so. Im not talking about GW2 here im talking about mmo in general.

     

    Or can we at all?

    Why would you care? if you like the game play it and dont mind who dont. Again im saying this for any games not just GW2.

    mmo these days are not built for people who play many hours a days, they are built for casual. That why game like GW2 can be good for casual players. First because it's fun and well-made and there is no sub but this is not for the long run. The problem is there is no modern mmo for the hardcore crowd, so they move from mmo to mmo with the hope it will be for them.

    Pretty good topic going on in the GW2 forums. I tend to agree with him.

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Brandon, FLPosts: 3,649Member
    Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

    Being "Trained" for progression isn't the problem.

    The problem is leveling in games has become so fast that you have way too much time between max level and the next expansion. The game has to give players something to do which leads to gear progression.

    EVE is probably the only game that does it right. Even if you played for ten years you still wouldn't max out your skills. You are always progressing so you just play the game.

    And this is basically the difference between character/player progression and gear progression.  Unfortunately, it appears the masses want the new shiny items rather than any actual progression.

    It's like the following - if I may...

    • Tom (playing Game X):  Man, we finally UberMegaBoss.
    • Jerry (playing Game Y):  Cool, what'd you get?
    • Tom:  What?
    • Jerry:  What'd you get for beating that boss?
    • Tom:  Um, we beat the boss.  It was hard, but we finally beat him.
    • Jerry:  Yeah, but what kind of loot did you get?
    • Tom:  Loot?
    • Jerry:  Yeah, loot?  What did you get?
    • Tom:  Some gold, I guess.
    • Jerry:  What?  What epics did you get?
    • Tom:  Epics?
    • Jerry:  Yeah, for killing the boss.  What epic loot did you get?  How are you going to beat the next boss?
    • Tom:  Didn't get any loot like that.  Don't need anything like that to fight the next boss.
    • Jerry:  What?
    • Tom:  We just need to be better.  We need to apply what we've learned so far, work hard as a team, and with practice we'll be able to take down whatever boss we face next.
    • Jerry:  But - you need loot - you need epics.  Where's the progression?
    • Tom:  I just told you - we get better the more we play.
    • Jerry:  I don't understand...
    • Tom:  I'm seeing that....
    It's like the threads where folks have had issues with the lack of the Trinity in a few recent games - the lack of gear progression would blow their minds...meh.
     
    I still think CCP should have made a "Fantasy" EVE as well... in the past, I've called it Shadowbane 2.0... but oh well.

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • RohnRohn Saint Peters, MOPosts: 3,740Member Uncommon

    Progression has less to do with the "MMO" part, and more to do with the "RPG" part.

    Character progression of some sort is a major focus of RPGs, whether that's paper and pencil, or computer-based.

    Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.

  • SilokSilok Mascouche, QCPosts: 732Member
    Originally posted by Eir_S

    And I thought the good members didn't try assuming something that isn't even in the post they read.  Progression isn't a "negative", neither is playing a game for fun.  People should be happy that there are multiple types of MMOs to play now, but as you can see, they aren't.  Unlike fans of most genres (excluding FPS titles), many MMO players seem to think that if you can't enjoy one MMO as much as another, then it fails.

    As an aside, it's all relative to the person in question.  I knew people in WoW who had every piece of leet gear possible but didn't do a damn thing in real life but sit there.  It doesn't mean they have some desire to better themselves, it's because it's a video game and it's easy compared to moving their ass.

    You see this is exactly the opposite, all major mmo these days are for the solo, fast and easy crownd, leveling became easier than ever, the journey is fast and not very challenging. Anyone can have anything without taking the time to get it. But where are the games for those who like a long and hard journey? There is none execpt the old ones.

  • RaysheRayshe London, ONPosts: 1,284Member

    While i can agree that this follows the most traditional methodology of MMO's i cant say it fits in with all of them.

     

    TSW is the best example here.

    I've been running nightmares for probubly 5 or 6 weeks now. Sure its possible to To run instances for gear. However doing so would be shooting yourself in the foot. The best gear ive gotten has come from the items i have purchased and upgraded myself. PVP works the same way for progression and both can actually be quite effective in the other aspect. Alot of these fights actually do come from being better. Successfully Impairing to interrupt, Keeping active afflictions on the boss so that your team mate may capitalize on the situation. Making sure you are running the right buffs and dont blow them with poor timing. Having a build that actually works with all the abilities so your not boosting your strike attacks but not using any. Understand where im coming from.

     

    Thats part 1. Part 2 is the Boss fights themselves. I have run Raids in plenty of games, TSW NM runs have been while somewhat Simple, MUCH more difficult. Ask a TSW player why we entered a NM run and we wont say. There is a +5 sword in there that will make all the other fights simpler. You may hear, We are in need of Currency so that we can enhance our gear. Or you may hear and i feel this is much more Common "We havent beaten it yet"

     

    The difference in Drops for anything above QL10 is Stat Alocation. A drop from the first Nightmare instance may have 445 Attack Rating, 130 Crit chance and 40 Crit Power where as a drop from the Last Nightmare run would have something along the lines of 445 Attack Rating, 130 Crit Power and 40 Crit rating.

     

    Also if it is the idea of attaining Gear that is stronger or somehow different thatn your previous gear. then your in the Wrong Genre, RPG's all play this way and they all SHOULD play this way. Having a sword that acts just like a sword has its own Genre its called Hack and Slash.

    Because i can.
    I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
    Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,272Member Uncommon

    OP cmon. 

     

    Since the early days of pen and paper rpgs were founded on progression.. wtf? Yeah we played D&D and the likes for fun, but we wanted to progress our character. We wanted levels, skills, and gear.... wtf? sorry.. it's late here. 

     

    pen and paper gave birth to mmorpgs. in case you did not know /roll, or RNG (Random Number Gernerator/tion) they come form 1d3s 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 1d12s......1d100s. Those are die, that's plural for dice just incase. 

     

    This is like asking fellow football players "Do you think we are trained to gain yards?" image

     

     

  • SilokSilok Mascouche, QCPosts: 732Member
    • Tom (playing Game X):  Man, we finally UberMegaBoss.
    • Jerry (playing Game Y):  Cool, what'd you get?
    • Tom:  What?
    • Jerry:  What'd you get for beating that boss?
    • Tom:  Um, we beat the boss.  It was hard, but we finally beat him.
    • Jerry:  Yeah, but what kind of loot did you get?
    • Tom:  Loot?
    • Jerry:  Yeah, loot?  What did you get?
    • Tom:  Some gold, I guess.
    • Jerry:  What?  What epics did you get?
    • Tom:  Epics?
    • Jerry:  Yeah, for killing the boss.  What epic loot did you get?  How are you going to beat the next boss?
    • Tom:  Didn't get any loot like that.  Don't need anything like that to fight the next boss.
    • Jerry:  What?
    • Tom:  We just need to be better.  We need to apply what we've learned so far, work hard as a team, and with practice we'll be able to take down whatever boss we face next.
    • Jerry:  But - you need loot - you need epics.  Where's the progression?
    • Tom:  I just told you - we get better the more we play.
    • Jerry:  I don't understand...
    • Tom:  I'm seeing that....

    Funny :)  but i think you mix the two characters. In the anime Tom is no match for Jerry's brains and wits, so for me it should be Tom that doesnt understand Jerry and not the opposite. :)

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by Rohn

    Progression has less to do with the "MMO" part, and more to do with the "RPG" part.

    Character progression of some sort is a major focus of RPGs, whether that's paper and pencil, or computer-based.

    Yes, but in a good PnP RPG, progression isn't just being handed shiny things, it's improving the character, but by improving their stats and by knowing how to better utilize the character.  Of the two, the second is the most important.  In an MMO though, progression is usually so mind-numbingly simplistic, you get new armor that looks the same as your old armor, a new sword that looks the same as your old sword so you can go out and fight new, stronger enemies that look just like your old enemies.  Progression is done so badly in most MMOs, it's laughable.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
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  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Brandon, FLPosts: 3,649Member
    Originally posted by Silok
    Originally posted by Eir_S

    And I thought the good members didn't try assuming something that isn't even in the post they read.  Progression isn't a "negative", neither is playing a game for fun.  People should be happy that there are multiple types of MMOs to play now, but as you can see, they aren't.  Unlike fans of most genres (excluding FPS titles), many MMO players seem to think that if you can't enjoy one MMO as much as another, then it fails.

    As an aside, it's all relative to the person in question.  I knew people in WoW who had every piece of leet gear possible but didn't do a damn thing in real life but sit there.  It doesn't mean they have some desire to better themselves, it's because it's a video game and it's easy compared to moving their ass.

    You see this is exactly the opposite, all major mmo these days are for the solo, fast and easy crownd, leveling became easier than ever, the journey is fast and not very challenging. Anyone can have anything without taking the time to get it. But where are the games for those who like a long and hard journey? There is none execpt the old ones.

    Which is where it gets into the "Doubling Plus Factor" - so to speak, and makes it pretty tough on devs.

    Say you start off with a standard Fantasy MMORPG.  Somebody wants a Sci-Fi MMORPG.  You're now at two games.  Somebody wants faster leveling and more focus on endgame.  Not everybody does though.  So now you have two Fantasy games and two Sci-Fi games.  Somebody wants more action orientated combat.  Not everybody does though.  But still, now you're at four Fantasy games and four Sci-Fi games.  Somebody wants a Superhero game.  Tada, you've got four Superhero games.  Somebody wants another genre, bam - four of them.  Then you get into features that folks want and others do not want - BAM - for each game, you've got two.  Somebody wants dungeon finder - somebody doesn't - you're at 8 Fantasy, 8 Sci-Fi, and 8 Superhero games.  Somebody wants Post Apocalyptic - bam - wait, Post Apocalyptic means different things... who knows how many games you'll end up with there?  Heh, throw in Sandbox versions of those games and....

    ...sometimes we have to settle.  Or we just walk away.

    I believe it's one of the reasons that so many folks are always looking for the next game - they're looking for the game that does not exist.  It's version #248 of 3257.  It may or may never exist.

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • LithuanianLithuanian vilniusPosts: 203Member Uncommon

    Progression is not bad - it may inspire to grow for a long and long. Finished Ice Monk - ok, go for Fire Hunter, finished Fire Hunter - go for Slug Warrior etc etc etc...untill all 99 classes are up to top (and each class is harder and harder to master).

    I think it is the MMORPG that should offer something extra - and once again, I will refer to Istaria. My toon has finished several fighting schools and several crafting schools as well. I could grind for experience, turning in trophies or power-levelling...but instead, I craft day and night, gaining no xp.

    Why? Just because I do want to help other people with their plots and buildings. I craft tier 1 or tier 2 stuff, add it to structures and enjoy seing how structure appears out of scaffold. Or sometimes I just go to starting area, asking new players if they need fire support / tools / weapons. It is now and it would be when I will reach end-game (level 100 in all schools).

    And please notice, I am progression fan, I do love to see how level numbers increase, be it fighting or crafting. I just saw another aspect of the game: fun without xp. I go near couple animals and cast some funny spell on them: it has no result, but just looks nice. I go to aid structures - and owner will never know it was I that helped. Or I just go to help some newbie: be it Dragon who wants more treasure for hoard or some biped in need to kill that terrible lvl.10 grulet.

    In short: players should see some other "side" purpose. Istaria has plots and everyone may help other person's buildings. The world is large and there are so many buildings waiting to be completed.

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