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pvp/safe zones why no safe areas?

drivecdrivec tulsa, OKPosts: 93Member

i know npc cities will be safe zone.

 

but why are there no safe areas.I am just surprised that av hasnt taken the idea from eve where there are safer zones where there is very little resourses but gives you a chance to start somewhere instead from completely nothing. like an area where you can play but not be ganked.

I am not against pvp. But pointless pvp is never fun. some players probly would love an area even if just to get very crappy gear.

Iam sure talk about this has happen before just wasnt sure if any great ideas ever surfaced.

Comments

  • BiskopBiskop AvalonPosts: 709Member

    Well, afaik there will be a "newbie zone" in DFUW which will be 100% safe.

    I'd have prefered an EVE-like system though; a gradually decrasing safety scale with roaming guards and a risk vs reward logic to it is much more dynamic than the artificial "be safe in town, get ganked two meters outside" system. It falied in DF1 and it falied in MO.

    Still, EVE's zone system makes NPC policing easier to implement than it would be in an open world fantasy game. They could still pull it off if they really wanted though - for example, roaming guards along the roads, guard checkpoints in the wilds etc.

    I doubt AV wants a system like that though, they have always had more of a Quake mentality when it comes to PVP dynamics.

  • DrokaFonDrokaFon Sallys Legs, LAPosts: 19Member

    Well, from what i remember before i quit DF, and this is before they changed the skill up system. It didn't matter what mob you attacked to skill up your weapons.  One hit on a goblin with as much as 1 hit on the Devil,  It was the amount of hits that added up and got you a higher skill level in your weapon specialty....

     

    So theoreticly speaking it would be possible to sit in one of these zones and just 2 hit mobs all day every day untill you were maxed out, so instead of going to a harder monster and getting 1000 swings in an hour , you would lets say kill 5 goblins 2 hits a peace on a 5 min respawn timer, thats 10 hits every 5 mins, 120 hits an hour. about a tenth of the harder mobs BUT you are still getting hits in safley...and althought it would take FOREVER to do this and skill everything up, You still theoreticly do it with out ever having to defend your self or feel in danger from anyone, ever.

  • StofftierStofftier berlinPosts: 93Member

    now only tell me if thats possible is nice but what would be wrong with that, when this guy chooses that way ?is it wrong that someone like you had no chance to gank a shitnoob or is it then more jealousy that he never died till max and you did or what?

  • OboyyOboyy PitePosts: 15Member
    Originally posted by drivec

    i know npc cities will be safe zone.

     

    but why are there no safe areas.I am just surprised that av hasnt taken the idea from eve where there are safer zones where there is very little resourses but gives you a chance to start somewhere instead from completely nothing. like an area where you can play but not be ganked.

    I am not against pvp. But pointless pvp is never fun. some players probly would love an area even if just to get very crappy gear.

    Iam sure talk about this has happen before just wasnt sure if any great ideas ever surfaced.

    I think they will have some kind of noob area/ dungeon, howeverm, in a full loot open world PvP is everywhere, dont want to get killed? Get friends, live in a city etc.

     

    or just hang around the npc cities.

    The PvP isnt pointless, just because you dont get badges for every kill doesnt mean its pointless ;)

    The Darkfall world is cruel, you shouldnt be able to hide from the reality forever.

     

  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon

    Safe zones are a bad idea really its not what darkfall is about... the safest place should be your guild city and of course thats not 100% safe.. having a big place where you can go without having to worry about if your gonna get ganked and loose all your loot or loose all your crafting stuff would just brake the game as everyone would go there to craft..

     

    Maybe a small starter area then when you leave you cant go back to is fine.. but you should only be allowed there for al imited amount of time.

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member

    Well you will have npc cities and starter/tutorial safe zones. That really should be enough.

     

    I thought about this quite a bit over time and whilst EVE's "zoning" system is fantasic, it wouldn't really work in Darkfall for a number of reasons.

     

    First of all you could skill up on trash mobs in the safe zone.

    You could safely mine in the safe zone.

    Clans will exploit it one way or another, you can bet your backside on that.

    It is against the ethos of the game, the reality of the situation is that whilst EVE is no doubt "about teh PvP" to a large extent, Darkfall at heart is ALL about the pvp. You want people moving out into that asap, not milling around a safe zone.

     

    The issue with the previous version of the game is that no safe zone + a crippling grind = shite game for noob players unless they are really, really invested in the idea and "up for it". If Unholy Wars reduces that grind, throws in a tutorial to get players going (which by all accounts they are doing), then people really have little excuse not to get out there and get on with it.

     

    Getting people prepared and out into the field as quickly as possible is a far better way of doing it (for a pvp intensive game) than just giving them the option to mooch about in a safe haven. I say "mooch" not to belittle people in a safe area, but to point out that given (Darkfall at least) had nothing like the economic/player meta game EVE has, that would be pretty much all you would do in a safe haven, mooch and hide.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • TymorisTymoris AthensPosts: 360Member
    Originally posted by Oboyy
    Originally posted by drivec

    i know npc cities will be safe zone.

     

    but why are there no safe areas.I am just surprised that av hasnt taken the idea from eve where there are safer zones where there is very little resourses but gives you a chance to start somewhere instead from completely nothing. like an area where you can play but not be ganked.

    I am not against pvp. But pointless pvp is never fun. some players probly would love an area even if just to get very crappy gear.

    Iam sure talk about this has happen before just wasnt sure if any great ideas ever surfaced.

    I think they will have some kind of noob area/ dungeon, howeverm, in a full loot open world PvP is everywhere, dont want to get killed? Get friends, live in a city etc.

     

    or just hang around the npc cities.

    The PvP isnt pointless, just because you dont get badges for every kill doesnt mean its pointless ;)

    The Darkfall world is cruel, you shouldnt be able to hide from the reality forever.

     

    PvP by itself is pointless, after all if you just wanted to pvp you'd go play an fps, that's why in games that aren't build around pvp there are badges. In a game that has pvp as a main part of its mechanics I expect it to give me enough reason to not go with the safer or easier option.

    image
  • OboyyOboyy PitePosts: 15Member

    Ive done nothing but PvPing for 2 years in Darkfall.

    And its not for nothing, you get thrills/loot from killing players in Darkfall.

    This is darkfalls greatness, you never have to PvE/farm if you dont want too, just kill the ppl doing it.

     

     

    edit: i kind of agree with you tho.

  • DzikuniDzikuni ChojnPosts: 21Member Common
    DFO have safe zones for new palyers - dungeons inside npc citys whit easy to kill mobs. A lot spowns whit npc towers reach, rly no1 need more to skill character to lvl when he can do pvp.
  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,994Member Uncommon
    All it really needs is a drop system like Shadowbane had and it would be better IMO, but hey, I didn't design the game. I'll just have to play it like AV envisioned.

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    All it really needs is a drop system like Shadowbane had and it would be better IMO, but hey, I didn't design the game. I'll just have to play it like AV envisioned.

    Which vision will you play?  The first one?  Or the "whoops, sorry, let's try that again" one?

    El Psy Congroo

  • BiskopBiskop AvalonPosts: 709Member
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper

    It is against the ethos of the game, the reality of the situation is that whilst EVE is no doubt "about teh PvP" to a large extent, Darkfall at heart is ALL about the pvp. You want people moving out into that asap, not milling around a safe zone.

    Yeah, and that's why EVE has like 35 000 people on every day, while DF has what, 200?

    Harsh and merciless PVP is fine and dandy, but unless a game manages to retain the carebears, the crafters, the socializers and the PVErs, it will never flourish, especially if it is a sandbox game.

    The beauty of EVE is that it houses many, many different playstyles. There is brutal FFA PVP to be sure, but there is also peaceful activities like trading, transportation, exploring, etc, plus a lot of "discrete" PVP leeching off of the carebears and sheep - scamming, ninja looting, can flipping, you name it. Also, the peaceful sides of EVE ties into the regional warfare and fuel the PVP, which makes the world more dynamic.

    Some people never leave high sec, but this does not make null sec less dangerous. It's still there for those wanting more risk and higher rewards, but going there is completely optional. Besides, high-sec is far from 100% safe, which also makes the game more interesting since it forces you to stay alert even when doing mundane tasks.

    In DF1 on the other hand, you have no peaceful or "in-between" actitivites worth mentioning, no dynamics, no different roles and playstyles, no economics, no logistics, no population. It's all about PVP and PVP only, PVP exists for its own sake (and for trolling at Forumfall), every other activity exists for the purpose of PVPing and every PVPer is the same. 

    This has killed the game for almost everyone except a tiny bunch of "hardcore" people who like arcade-styled deathmatches but still, for some weird reason, play MMOs.

     

    I really hope AV have thought about this stuff long and hard and asked themselves what kind of a game they're developing. If all they wanted to to is an arena-styled PVP game where "getting into the action" asap is the no 1 priority, they should have made an FPS game, not an MMO. If they manage to make an actual sandbox game, they will have a hit on their hands, otherwise it'll just be DF1 all over again - pop spike at launch, a ghost town 3 months later.

    Also, I think and EVE-like security system could work in DF's setting. They just need to make it so that low-level mobs don't give you exp after a certain skill level, they need to put some roaming guards in (the AI is there, it's doable), they need to make the game more about regional conflict and regional resources, and they need to promote a player-driven economy.

    I'm not holding my breath though... : (

  • SysFailSysFail LondonPosts: 375Member

    I think i remember reading about them extending guardzones in a races natives land. It certainly shouldn't be like it was with the original launch where you could kill your own race with impunity.

    The real question is does any of those that quit last time because of the horrid launch and subsequent difficulties even want to try DFUW again, once bitten, twice shy...

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Originally posted by Biskop
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper

     

    Yeah, and that's why EVE has like 35 000 people on every day, while DF has what, 200?

    Harsh and merciless PVP is fine and dandy, but unless a game manages to retain the carebears, the crafters, the socializers and the PVErs, it will never flourish, especially if it is a sandbox game.

    The beauty of EVE is that it houses many, many different playstyles. There is brutal FFA PVP to be sure, but there is also peaceful activities like trading, transportation, exploring, etc, plus a lot of "discrete" PVP leeching off of the carebears and sheep - scamming, ninja looting, can flipping, you name it. Also, the peaceful sides of EVE ties into the regional warfare and fuel the PVP, which makes the world more dynamic.

    Some people never leave high sec, but this does not make null sec less dangerous. It's still there for those wanting more risk and higher rewards, but going there is completely optional. Besides, high-sec is far from 100% safe, which also makes the game more interesting since it forces you to stay alert even when doing mundane tasks.

    In DF1 on the other hand, you have no peaceful or "in-between" actitivites worth mentioning, no dynamics, no different roles and playstyles, no economics, no logistics, no population. It's all about PVP and PVP only, PVP exists for its own sake (and for trolling at Forumfall), every other activity exists for the purpose of PVPing and every PVPer is the same. 

    This has killed the game for almost everyone except a tiny bunch of "hardcore" people who like arcade-styled deathmatches but still, for some weird reason, play MMOs.

     

    I really hope AV have thought about this stuff long and hard and asked themselves what kind of a game they're developing. If all they wanted to to is an arena-styled PVP game where "getting into the action" asap is the no 1 priority, they should have made an FPS game, not an MMO. If they manage to make an actual sandbox game, they will have a hit on their hands, otherwise it'll just be DF1 all over again - pop spike at launch, a ghost town 3 months later.

    Also, I think and EVE-like security system could work in DF's setting. They just need to make it so that low-level mobs don't give you exp after a certain skill level, they need to put some roaming guards in (the AI is there, it's doable), they need to make the game more about regional conflict and regional resources, and they need to promote a player-driven economy.

    I'm not holding my breath though... : (

    No that's not why Darkfall had "200" subs at all, or are we saying pvp centric games are not popular here? Because that is a complete and utter nonsense. Darkfall had far greater issues to contend with than the fact it was pvp centric or the fact that it had full loot. That is well documented and really should not need going over.

     

    It would be fantastic if Unholy Wars would be more like EVE or more like UO and be a fully fledged, all round sandbox. But the fact of the matter is that the previous incarnation was pvp centric, the devs have reiterated that point themselves (see the video interviews) and the likelihood is that it will be the same case for Unholy Wars. If done well, that model can be successful no doubt about it.

     

    Given that is the case, more/numerous safezones ala EVE is not as beneficial as getting players out there into the open world after a good tutorial grounding.

     

    "If Darfkall was more like EVE then the EVE zone system would work great", er yes. Darkfall isn't like EVE though, it is more pvp centric (rightly or wrongly) and as such such a zoning system wouldn't be all that.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,994Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kadepsyson
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    All it really needs is a drop system like Shadowbane had and it would be better IMO, but hey, I didn't design the game. I'll just have to play it like AV envisioned.

    Which vision will you play?  The first one?  Or the "whoops, sorry, let's try that again" one?

    Well, the "do-over" of course, I missed the first one due to my reluctance to "embrace" the looting model.

    But like I said, I'll set it aside for now and see how it goes.

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • BiskopBiskop AvalonPosts: 709Member
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper

    No that's not why Darkfall had "200" subs at all, or are we saying pvp centric games are not popular here? Because that is a complete and utter nonsense. Darkfall had far greater issues to contend with than the fact it was pvp centric or the fact that it had full loot. That is well documented and really should not need going over.

     

    It would be fantastic if Unholy Wars would be more like EVE or more like UO and be a fully fledged, all round sandbox. But the fact of the matter is that the previous incarnation was pvp centric, the devs have reiterated that point themselves (see the video interviews) and the likelihood is that it will be the same case for Unholy Wars. If done well, that model can be successful no doubt about it.

     

    Given that is the case, more/numerous safezones ala EVE is not as beneficial as getting players out there into the open world after a good tutorial grounding.

     

    "If Darfkall was more like EVE then the EVE zone system would work great", er yes. Darkfall isn't like EVE though, it is more pvp centric (rightly or wrongly) and as such such a zoning system wouldn't be all that.

     

    I'm not saying PVP-centric games are not popular, I'm saying games can have both harsh PVP and peaceful activities, that they can tie into each other and provide several different playstyles. Nowhere do I argue against PVP or full loot - on the contrary I believe those features are crucial to DF.

    But the deathmatch-styled gameplay and lack of sandbox features is obviously not a very succesful model - if it was, AV would not be remaking the game as we speak. We can only hope they've learned from past mistakes (some passages in the announcement video hint as much), but we won't know until more info is available.

     

  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by kadepsyson
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    All it really needs is a drop system like Shadowbane had and it would be better IMO, but hey, I didn't design the game. I'll just have to play it like AV envisioned.

    Which vision will you play?  The first one?  Or the "whoops, sorry, let's try that again" one?

    Well, the "do-over" of course, I missed the first one due to my reluctance to "embrace" the looting model.

    But like I said, I'll set it aside for now and see how it goes.

    IF you do decide to play remember join a good guild... and also dont worry about loosing your gear its easy to replace..

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Originally posted by Biskop
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper

     

     

    I'm not saying PVP-centric games are not popular, I'm saying games can have both harsh PVP and peaceful activities, that they can tie into each other and provide several different playstyles. Nowhere do I argue against PVP or full loot - on the contrary I believe those features are crucial to DF.

    But the deathmatch-styled gameplay and lack of sandbox features is obviously not a very succesful model - if it was, AV would not be remaking the game as we speak. We can only hope they've learned from past mistakes (some passages in the announcement video hint as much), but we won't know until more info is available.

     

    I agree that games which mix both harsh pvp and non pvp activities can be great (I am an advocate of both EVE and pre Tram UO). But the point I was making was that (historically at least) Darkfall has not been about that, hence my point about the relative redundancy of safe zones ala EVE.

     

    If Unholy Wars goes down the EVE/UO full sandbox route then ofc a similar system to EVE would work (and it would be fantastic). But as it stands it certainly doesn't appear that that is the case, hence my response.

     

    The reason the previous "death match style" in a persistant world with some focus on crafting/PVE et al incarnation didn't work out (as mentioned before) has nothing to do with the model and everything to do with the execution. Their major past mistakes where insane grinds/power disparity and lack of skill cap and a lolmagic system, coupled with a boring/pointless seige/large scale warfare system. Not the fact it was pvp centric.

     

    It would be nice to have a Darkfall that remakes UO. But then it would be nice to have a Darkfall that simply does what it is meant to do originally well, get people engaged in massive battles in an open world without having to spend forever grinding magic skills on thousands of mobs or bloodwall/exploiting.

     

    TL:DR -

    Darkfall being as fully fleshed out as EVE/UO would be awesome. I don't think that will be the case though as that is not the traditional  focus hence, safe zones as seen in EVE probably wouldn't be the best idea.

     

    Darkfall did not "fail" due to it's pvp focus, it "failed" due to a plethora of bugs/exploit/grind/lack of skill cap/lolmagic/pointless seige et al issues.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • KrulosKrulos CopenhagenPosts: 68Member
    Would love if they add a big tradehub(no fighting allowed) in center of Agon. Agon's Jita.
  • 123443211234123443211234 seattle, WAPosts: 244Member

    I can't wait for DF2 to come out, and will be leaving whatever "safe" zones there are as soon as I log in for the first time.  

    That being said a word of warning to all of you that think "safe" means invulnerable.  The correct term should be "safer".  In original DF you could still be killed either through war declaration or players using creative means (healing eachother, blue blocking etc...) within any guard tower "nooby" cities, although it was less likely.

    The world of Darkfall is a very dangerous place, do not count on npc guards and towers to keep you alive as chances are if someone trys hard enough they can still take you down.  (even if they die as well, can just have their friends loot there stuff and yours)

     

     

    PS. There is no way to make an area %100 safe in DF unless you literally disable the ability to to hit another person.  This will never happen as friendly fire is a core game concept.  Not to mention healing or buffing someone else as well.

  • BiskopBiskop AvalonPosts: 709Member
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper

    I agree that games which mix both harsh pvp and non pvp activities can be great (I am an advocate of both EVE and pre Tram UO). But the point I was making was that (historically at least) Darkfall has not been about that, hence my point about the relative redundancy of safe zones ala EVE.

     

    If Unholy Wars goes down the EVE/UO full sandbox route then ofc a similar system to EVE would work (and it would be fantastic). But as it stands it certainly doesn't appear that that is the case, hence my response.

     

    The reason the previous "death match style" in a persistant world with some focus on crafting/PVE et al incarnation didn't work out (as mentioned before) has nothing to do with the model and everything to do with the execution. Their major past mistakes where insane grinds/power disparity and lack of skill cap and a lolmagic system, coupled with a boring/pointless seige/large scale warfare system. Not the fact it was pvp centric.

     

    It would be nice to have a Darkfall that remakes UO. But then it would be nice to have a Darkfall that simply does what it is meant to do originally well, get people engaged in massive battles in an open world without having to spend forever grinding magic skills on thousands of mobs or bloodwall/exploiting.

     

    TL:DR -

    Darkfall being as fully fleshed out as EVE/UO would be awesome. I don't think that will be the case though as that is not the traditional  focus hence, safe zones as seen in EVE probably wouldn't be the best idea.

     

    Darkfall did not "fail" due to it's pvp focus, it "failed" due to a plethora of bugs/exploit/grind/lack of skill cap/lolmagic/pointless seige et al issues.

    Yup, there were many factors making DF1 fail.

    And once again, I'm NOT arguing that it failed because it is PVP centric - all I'm saying is that the new incarnation needs more stuff to do than mindless PVP.

    It wouldn't have to copy/paste EVE ofc, just borrow some basic concepts, such as a more dynamic security system, regional/local banking, etc.

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