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My [partial] theory why The Secret World and SWTOR failed

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Comments

  • BlackbrrdBlackbrrd KongsbergPosts: 811Member
    It's actually not the tab-targetting that feels wrong, atleast not in my opinion. What feels wrong is that you have a rifle on full auto, hitting the mob and it just doesn't die. The same goes for the shotgun. I see why they have done it gameplay wise, but it feels wrong.
  • DreskestDreskest El Paso, TXPosts: 69Member
    Originally posted by Blackbrrd
    It's actually not the tab-targetting that feels wrong, atleast not in my opinion. What feels wrong is that you have a rifle on full auto, hitting the mob and it just doesn't die. The same goes for the shotgun. I see why they have done it gameplay wise, but it feels wrong.

    By that logic, it feels totally wrong that in every fantasy game I whack mobs with swords, axes, maces,and all sorts of spells and they just don't die instantly.

     

    You realize we're all just playing videogames to have a good time right ?

  • RasputinRasputin gnaf, AKPosts: 604Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Blackbrrd
    It's actually not the tab-targetting that feels wrong, atleast not in my opinion. What feels wrong is that you have a rifle on full auto, hitting the mob and it just doesn't die. The same goes for the shotgun. I see why they have done it gameplay wise, but it feels wrong.

    But you see, it is tab-targeting. At least in-directly. Because with tab-targeting goes the standard formula, where everything is calculated. This weapon is that level and will give this damage to a lvl-that monster. You can have a badass looking lvl1 shotgun being unable to take down a higher level monster. DPS, DoT and all the other mechanics that go with mathematical-formula combat systems like those of standard MMO's (WoW-clones if you like) are like that, and are heavily tied in with tab-targeting. Tab-targeting is anti-playerskill, and needs another way to resolve combat, and that "other way" makes guns feel wrong.

  • RasputinRasputin gnaf, AKPosts: 604Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dreskest
    Originally posted by Blackbrrd
    It's actually not the tab-targetting that feels wrong, atleast not in my opinion. What feels wrong is that you have a rifle on full auto, hitting the mob and it just doesn't die. The same goes for the shotgun. I see why they have done it gameplay wise, but it feels wrong.

    By that logic, it feels totally wrong that in every fantasy game I whack mobs with swords, axes, maces,and all sorts of spells and they just don't die instantly.

     

    You realize we're all just playing videogames to have a good time right ?

    This is what I addressed in my OP, when I said, that I wasn't sure why we accept it in fantasy MMOs. Maybe we are just used to it from decades of fantasy games, that resolved combat that way. Or we don't really know how potent medieval weapons are, because we have no experience with them, so we accept what we are being presented with. Also, it is not unusual to see movies where a sword fight takes a while and inflicts several wounds on the combatants (even if that may be unlikely in a r/l situation - I don't know if it is). On that background, it is easier for players to accept a sword fight that takes a longer time and deals several blows to the opponent before he dies.

    Everyone has one-shotted soldiers in CoD or BF, everyone has mass-slaughtered zombies in Left for Dead and everyone has seen what guns do in countless movies.

    It is really hard to accept, when it does not react as we expect - even if those expectations are based on false premises.

  • worldalphaworldalpha Milton, ONPosts: 403Member
    I was surprised as a big SW fan that I just couldn't get into SWTOR.  It didn't captivate me.

    Thanks,
    Mike
    Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com

  • Agent_JosephAgent_Joseph SarajevoPosts: 1,070Member Uncommon

    TSW is not fail ,that game is not atractive for  childish action based  mmorpg  players,comunity is ok,now with nice number active players.TSW not need milions players.

    I hate fps action targeting  mode in an mmorpg games , look STO ,it is crap in fps mode.

    Go play  shooters,rpg games are diferent concept.You know ME serial  is not an rpg it is shooter.

     

     

    only EVE is real MMO...but I am impressive with TSW

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon

    AoC had twitch melee but tab target ranged if I remember right. I have seen various MMO's struggle with this one and come down on the fully twitched side myself. But the issue there is player ability comes to the fore and MMO's do not want any player to feel they are failing somehow.

    The industry thinks that players will not feel bad and leave B3 because they are not so good, but will in a MMO. I am not sure the industry is right here, as long as players are not getting ganked I think they will still play in MMO's even if they are not as good as the next guy.

    Make sure it is zoned PvP and most players would accept it. Problem is they are not after most players, they want every player so it is easymode play once again.

  • BeermanglerBeermangler Cluj NapocaPosts: 397Member Uncommon

    The only reason why I haven't continued playing TSW after the trial is that ranged combad didn't feel ranged at all.

    I was running around with an M4 machine gun but I still had to kill every mob at point blank range. 

    This is how TSW failed me personally as a range player. 

     

    As for SWTOR... what can I say. They took a huge dynamic universe and crammed into tiny instanced playgrounds. What good to have 8 planets when your total game area is the size of my pool...

    Better to be crazy, provided you know what sane is...

  • nyxiumnyxium Posts: 1,222Member Uncommon
    My own theory is the world economy was pants after collapsing and people were more cautious with their penny's than they might have been in more plentiful times. F2P, especially games like LOTRO, is popular now, teeming even. Price drove people away. It will be WoW next, I feel, with their business model taking a bigger hit in the future unless they change their ways and go freemium, f2p or b2p without a sub.

    image
  • fonoifonoi Cape TownPosts: 56Member
    SWTOR for me was all about when you got to 50 it felt like a differnt game, and not an enjoyable one.

    The secret world on the other hand I don't think it was a failure, funcom just overestimated the market for the niche and still had a poor rep from AoC.
  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Brandon, FLPosts: 3,649Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Tsw specs aren't that different to gw2. It requires a level or two higher video card, but its actually a bit lighter on processor requirements.

    Um... no.

    GW2 Aug 2012:

    • Windows® XP Service Pack 2 or better
    • Intel® Core 2 Duo 2.0 GHz, Core i3 OR AMD Athlon 64 X2, or better
    • 2 GB RAM
    • NVIDIA® GeForce® 7800, ATI X1800, Intel HD 3000, or better (256 MB of video RAM and shader model 3.0 or better)
    • 25 GB available HDD space
    • Broadband Internet connection
    • Keyboard and mouse

    TSW Jul 2012:

    • Internet Connection: 512 KBPS or faster
    • OS: Windows XP (SP 1)/Vista (SP 1)/Windows 7 (SP 1)
    • DVD-ROM: 8X or faster DVD drive
    • Processor: 2.6 GHZ Intel Core 2 Duo or equivalent AMD CPU
    • Memory: At least 2GB RAM for Windows XP / 3GB RAM for Windows Vista and Windows 7
    • Hard Drive: At least 30GB of free space
    • Graphics Card: NVIDIA 8800 series 512 VRAM or better
    • DirectX: DirectX 9.0c Compatible
    • Input: Keyboard & Mouse
    The min specs for TSW require both a faster CPU and a better GPU.  You could have a machine capable of running GW2 and you could not run TSW.
     
    I copied that from another thread where we were discussing the min specs for PS2 - which - make the TSW specs not look so bad...lol.  But then again, PS2 is a MMOFPS and one could say it would be expected that FPS players are going to upgrade their machines more frequently than MMO players.  So one can cut SOE some slack, while just doing a /facepalm at Funcom.
     

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • tupodawg999tupodawg999 LondonPosts: 724Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VirusDancer

    My partial theory is always going to come back to two things:

    A) Marketing...failure.  But this can only go so far...

    B) Min System Requirements...too high for the average MMO gamer.  They're in line with the specs for the type of games played by people that would not be interested in TSW.  Comparing the specs to the "major" releases in the past year, if you could play all of those games - that does not mean you could play TSW.  So if you could not play it well, then why pay for it?  The economy's been rough - MMOs have always been a cheaper form of entertainment for many - asking folks to upgrade their machines to play TSW when they can play other games fine...well, that was madness.

    They said during the beta that they believed folks that were gaming enthusiasts would be upgrading their computers frequently - but - while there may be those that do so in the MMO community, it's not like in other gaming communities.  They just did not have the numbers there.  It was mind boggling.

     

    I definitely agree on the system requirements. I know some people constantly upgrade their puters for games but are the sort of people who do this the sort of people who'd particularly like a game like TSW? If i had to guess the sort of person who'd most like a game like TSW i'd imagine they would be more likely to spend spare cash on a collection of Poe stories than a new video card.

     

  • Felheart5Felheart5 OsloPosts: 35Member
    Originally posted by Rasputin
    This is what I addressed in my OP, when I said, that I wasn't sure why we accept it in fantasy MMOs. Maybe we are just used to it from decades of fantasy games, that resolved combat that way. Or we don't really know how potent medieval weapons are, because we have no experience with them, so we accept what we are being presented with. Also, it is not unusual to see movies where a sword fight takes a while and inflicts several wounds on the combatants (even if that may be unlikely in a r/l situation - I don't know if it is). On that background, it is easier for players to accept a sword fight that takes a longer time and deals several blows to the opponent before he dies.

    Everyone has one-shotted soldiers in CoD or BF, everyone has mass-slaughtered zombies in Left for Dead and everyone has seen what guns do in countless movies.

    It is really hard to accept, when it does not react as we expect - even if those expectations are based on false premises.

    There are plenty of popular modern/sci-fi games where guns don't act realistically at all, so no, I don't think thats much of an argument on its own. 

  • thorwoodthorwood MayfieldPosts: 485Member

    I am currently playing Secret World.

    I enjoyed the game initially.  Having the potential to learn all skill sets is an interesting variation on leveling/skills used in other games.

    The video sequences for missions added to the immersiveness.

    However, there were a number of features I disliked:

    •  When I moved to the second area of the game, the scenery was grey and drab .  The monsters blended in with the grey background.  Some areas  such as the carnival was blurry due to a mist effect.  All of this was done to create atmosphere and it did added to the difficulty. However, I like pretty graphics and do not enjoy eyestrain from drab or blurry landscapes.
    • The mission log  is primitive compared to other current games such as Rift.
    •  The game was repetitive.  As a solo player, I found myself repeating the same missions daily until I was strong enough to move to a new area.  More missions would have helped.
    • Video sequences run by default when you accept a mission, even when you have already watched a particular sequence in its entirety .  You could skip a video by hitting "esc" after the video started to load.  This was annoying.
    The drab landscapes remind me of Hellgate London when it was released.
     
    The Secret World has potential.   
  • ste2000ste2000 londonPosts: 4,706Member Uncommon
    I already said months before their launch why thise 2 games would fail.
    In short, because they are single player games with some MMO features.
    Even a blind could see what the problem was, except their developers.
  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member
    Originally posted by ste2000
    I already said months before their launch why thise 2 games would fail. In short, because they are single player games with some MMO features. Even a blind could see what the problem was, except their developers.

    I think it is diffrent.  I think that game desginers thought that most player will WANT to play singe player games with some mmo elements and they did it on purpose.

  • Felheart5Felheart5 OsloPosts: 35Member
    Originally posted by thorwood
    •  The game was repetitive.  As a solo player, I found myself repeating the same missions daily until I was strong enough to move to a new area.  More missions would have helped.

    This is probably one of the bigger challenges and potential flaws(the individual experience may vary) with the skill system in TSW. You can mess up, and in worst case find yourself having to redo old missions to get more skillpoints to play with. 

    The game doesn't need to be repetitive, I went through all the first three zones solo without ever needing to redo any quests. And I'd argue that my build is mediocre at best, having made some poor choices/mistakes and changing my mind along the way.  But it did get the job done, if not in the most effective manner. 

    It can't be denied that where some people have an "easy" time, others suddenly hit a wall despite being at the exact same point in the game, having achieved the same things so far. So perhaps there's something that could have been streamlined better somewhere either with skill system or how challenges scale. But then again, the dynamic nature of how you develop your character as you go is part of what makes the game fun in my eyes.

    Top tip I'd give to any TSW player who get's "stuck" after finishing one zone and moving on the next is to experiment with the skills you have. You may just have a lot more potential than you really think, a build that worked well in one zone may be obselete the next, forcing you to rethink your strategies. Odds are those skill you have are good for something, as long as you work out the right combinations for the job.

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