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Why do People Hate OWPVP?

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  • aRtFuLThinGaRtFuLThinG MelbournePosts: 1,134Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Parasitenoir

    Why is it that people do not like true open world pvp, where you can gank anyone while they are questing etc.  I enjoyed it in wow while it existed (vanilla-slightly BC), Rift was good, and currently gaming in Tera.

    Is it the annoyance of being ganked and not being able to defend yourself.  Does it provide to much of a challenge.  Or is our generation just lazy and prefer to sit in a town and just que for stuff.

    While fear of getting killed might be part of the reason, it is not the majority of it.

    I think the main reason is - it is a game. A lot of the people who don't like pvp just consider ganking as stress and don't want to deal with is (and that's the majority of people mind you, as there is always more pvers than pvpers)

    You got to understand that having to watch one's back all the time is not everyone's cup of tea. In fact, for hardcore pvpers it is not always their cup of tea either - sometimes ppl just want to sit back, grind crafting and watch tv at the same time; or they don't have time to sit down for long sessions of ganking and revenge fights. Which both are quite understandable, especially if you are older and has more RL responsibilities that might call you away from games suddenly sometimes.

    I think, as pvper myself, we got to be more open-minded about this.

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,924Member Uncommon

    Well it depends. I like Open World PvP myself a lot when it comes to factions. It gives some competition and makes things interesting. I completely despise it when its just free kill every man for themselves. It quickly kills the game to me and just makes things difficult to deal with. Yes, gankers exist on faction games but pretty much your left to flail around when some no skill jack off decides to rip you apart because he feels the need to get his kicks on someone not able to stand a chance. Without factions, this can turn quickly into 'group of friends' doing this which ends up causing more trouble since there is no faction to rally behind.

     

    Over-all, my biggest concern with Open World PvP comes to balance. On Rift, I have played on many heavily imbalanced servers of guardian verse defiant (Defiants love the zergs to hide lack of skill :) ) still, even in those cases a good few could do things to overcome this and in many cases a group of a few were able to kill many of the other faction. Still, this isn't always possible and this can become an issue.

     

    This is further made worst (to me) by gankers. I enjoy being 'ganked' when it comes to people in my level range, what I find lame is those no skilled jack holes coming at me with a huge level advantage. Yes, its partly due to the fact that (prepare for incoming cockiness) I'm a good player and vastly better then most gankers, but even if its a situation not in my favor (aka on rift Dom vs Warrior, granted warrior could be replaced by any class nearly (Aka trion balance damn mages already so dom isn't the strongest thing in game and other mage speccs can be viable in exchange) ) I really don't mind it. Its just those gank situation with a high level verse low level that I find dispicable and general where a simple gank  becomes a grief fest of purposely giving the player no chance to play.

  • YizleYizle Atlanta, GAPosts: 517Member
    Originally posted by Gurpslord

    The answer, in my opinion, is already in your original post.  The word gank.  May be fun for the jerk nozzles doing the ganking, not always so hawt for the people getting ganked.  If you're allowing a big part of your playerbase to be griefed like that openly then that playerbase goes somewhere else.

     

    Why do people not like it?  I know I don't like it because it's not in my plan.  If I want to go out and do this quest, check out that area, etc etc.  That's what I want to do.  I don't want to have to fight every larry curly and moe along the way who thinks they're awesome or trying to take the stress out of their sad lives by being big bullies in a video game.

    I'm sure there are games that support open world pvp as a big deal, at least there should be, it's definitely got a big enough following, but it has no place in a game like GW2 really.  Just my two cents tho.

    Its a game called Guild Wars. The very name of the game is about players fighting players? There is definately a place for it in a game like Guild Wars.

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Ft. Bliss, TXPosts: 3,485Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Yizle
    Originally posted by Gurpslord

    The answer, in my opinion, is already in your original post.  The word gank.  May be fun for the jerk nozzles doing the ganking, not always so hawt for the people getting ganked.  If you're allowing a big part of your playerbase to be griefed like that openly then that playerbase goes somewhere else.

     

    Why do people not like it?  I know I don't like it because it's not in my plan.  If I want to go out and do this quest, check out that area, etc etc.  That's what I want to do.  I don't want to have to fight every larry curly and moe along the way who thinks they're awesome or trying to take the stress out of their sad lives by being big bullies in a video game.

    I'm sure there are games that support open world pvp as a big deal, at least there should be, it's definitely got a big enough following, but it has no place in a game like GW2 really.  Just my two cents tho.

    Its a game called Guild Wars. The very name of the game is about players fighting players? There is definately a place for it in a game like Guild Wars.

    War is not the same thing as open world ganking. War is between 2 or more factions, groups or in this case, guilds. Don't confuse war with random lowbie hunting please.

    image

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,455Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DeivosMost notably the fact they had explicitly stated how they changed the game in response to the differences in how western players show less respect/regard for other players and how that made them seek to implement safeguards for lower level players that they said they previously simply didn;t need in the eastern version.

     

     

    Interesting point which goes back to a lineage 2 issue with a siege boss. I don't remember how it was implemented but the story goes that there was a siege where some sort of boss was summoned or it was by a siege? Well "whatever"...

    Some people lured it to town and it destroyed many of the players and stores.

    When asked why the developers didn't place safeguards for this type of thing the developers told the CM that "we never have that problem because the eastern players are too busy sieging."

     

    On hindemith, for quite a while, when a disliked clan took a castle and if they kept that castle, the server would sometimes rise up and remove them.

    It happened several times. It was one of the best things about that server. Slowly but surely that died out as players left the game.

     

  • aRtFuLThinGaRtFuLThinG MelbournePosts: 1,134Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    When asked why the developers didn't place safeguards for this type of thing the developers told the CM that "we never have that problem because the eastern players are too busy sieging."

    This is true.

    From my experience Oriental cultures has less of this type of trollish behaviour - where someone does something that just flat out harm others but do not benefit themselves.

    Might have something to do with the difference in value system between Eastern and Western societies. In eastern societies this type of behaviour is believed to be not just tools but actually "stupid", as in mentally disability stupid, because it doesn't benefit them - to the Eastern way, If it doesn't make money/gain power, it is a waste of time.

     

     

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by Yizle

    Its a game called Guild Wars. The very name of the game is about players fighting players? There is definately a place for it in a game like Guild Wars.

    Funny, never engaged in PvP or joined a Guild in all the time I played Guild Wars.

    Go figure.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  • StofftierStofftier berlinPosts: 93Member

    "I personally like the OWPVP and being able to mess with someones day while there gathering, questing whatever there doing ."

    you answer the question yourself you dont want pvp you want to destroy a funny gaming day of another person and thats why the other person most likely dont want open pvp for that reason.

  • HomituHomitu Hometown, HIPosts: 2,030Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    Does anyone else notice how players will often use terms that make themselves sound tougher or better than other players? Especially when talking about a preference for features? It's often phrased in a way to sound reasonable, but it is really just a way to say, "Playing a game with feature X makes me better than you". Is that just me?

     

    All I know is I'm obviously a better player than anyone who plays themepark MMOs.  And I'm definitely more skilled, because everyone knows the games I play take more skill.  

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,455Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    When asked why the developers didn't place safeguards for this type of thing the developers told the CM that "we never have that problem because the eastern players are too busy sieging."

     If it doesn't make money/gain power, it is a waste of time.

     

     

    lol, I can almost see my girlfriend saying something like this. She was born here but her family has a very strong foot in her chinese heritage.

    She often says things like "it's not practical" or "why would I do that, it has no benefit". Her whole family is like that.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,455Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by grimal

    Mostly because it leads to ganking, bullying, and unruly playground behavior.   And because most of us are past first grade.

    I also think this is the crux of it.

    People don't like to be "belittled" in a pastime. Well, in my experience very few do.

    I can't imagine most people spending what little downtime they allow themselves being fodder for abuse.

    Maybe if the OWPVP crowd was a better sport about "the sport" more people would be inclined to try it out.

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    When asked why the developers didn't place safeguards for this type of thing the developers told the CM that "we never have that problem because the eastern players are too busy sieging."

    This is true.

    From my experience Oriental cultures has less of this type of trollish behaviour - where someone does something that just flat out harm others but do not benefit themselves.

    Might have something to do with the difference in value system between Eastern and Western societies. In eastern societies this type of behaviour is believed to be not just tools but actually "stupid", as in mentally disability stupid, because it doesn't benefit them - to the Eastern way, If it doesn't make money/gain power, it is a waste of time.

     

     

    You really should look up some of the early F2P research which was done specifically on the eastern market and you will see that statement is completly false.

     

    They found that a great way to raise revenue was to sell an item someone could shame (aka grief/troll) another player with. They do it just as much as the west.

     

    I'm sure someone will come out with "prove it" and although I've done it in the past, I'll let people who want the knowledge go out and find it and those who want to believe the random "facts" they formed in their head may continue to do so.

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by RefMinor
    Open world PvP is for those who like games of war, for those who like to challenge themselves against other players. War is nasty, brutal and often unfair, it's about the survival of the fittest, if you find yourself in a fair fight then your tactics suck.

     

    Not everyone is tempramentally suited to playing them and so if they aren't, they shouldn't play them.

    The people who try them and can't cope are unable to accept that they are not suited to the game and need to believe that the concept of the game is flawed to avoid the truth that it is they who couldn't adapt.

     

    Population size is no guide to the quality of a game or its gameplay, you don't see Dan Brown winning literary awards yet his sales are massive. OWPvP will never be as popular as PvE due to its less casual nature and the need for the right kind of player mentality to cope.

     



    Does anyone else notice how players will often use terms that make themselves sound tougher or better than other players? Especially when talking about a preference for features? It's often phrased in a way to sound reasonable, but it is really just a way to say, "Playing a game with feature X makes me better than you". Is that just me?

     

    I'm sorry, where did I say one was better than the other. That's right, I didn't. I said they were for people with a specific mindset and you need the right kind of mentality to cope with the specific challenges inherent in an OWPvP game. Please don't foist your own issues onto me.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by Parasitenoir

    Hey guys - (just to start so no flaming occurs) i will be playing gw2 so I am not a hater.  I just have a more general question.

     

    Why is it that people do not like true open world pvp, where you can gank anyone while they are questing etc.  I enjoyed it in wow while it existed (vanilla-slightly BC), Rift was good, and currently gaming in Tera.

    Is it the annoyance of being ganked and not being able to defend yourself.  Does it provide to much of a challenge.  Or is our generation just lazy and prefer to sit in a town and just que for stuff.

     

    I personally like the OWPVP and being able to mess with someones day while there gathering, questing whatever there doing .

     

    what are peoples thoughts on this?

    Gankers - griefers and general jerks. That is why open world PvP does not rank on my list. Too many little kid attitude people think it is funny to kill low level players over and over.

    image

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  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Parasitenoir

    Hey guys - (just to start so no flaming occurs) i will be playing gw2 so I am not a hater.  I just have a more general question.

     

    Why is it that people do not like true open world pvp, where you can gank anyone while they are questing etc.  I enjoyed it in wow while it existed (vanilla-slightly BC), Rift was good, and currently gaming in Tera.

    Is it the annoyance of being ganked and not being able to defend yourself.  Does it provide to much of a challenge.  Or is our generation just lazy and prefer to sit in a town and just que for stuff.

     

    I personally like the OWPVP and being able to mess with someones day while there gathering, questing whatever there doing .

     

    what are peoples thoughts on this?

    I love open world PVP games but they must include full loot and a reason for PVP..

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by RefMinor
    Originally posted by lizardbones   Originally posted by RefMinor Open world PvP is for those who like games of war, for those who like to challenge themselves against other players. War is nasty, brutal and often unfair, it's about the survival of the fittest, if you find yourself in a fair fight then your tactics suck.   Not everyone is tempramentally suited to playing them and so if they aren't, they shouldn't play them. The people who try them and can't cope are unable to accept that they are not suited to the game and need to believe that the concept of the game is flawed to avoid the truth that it is they who couldn't adapt.   Population size is no guide to the quality of a game or its gameplay, you don't see Dan Brown winning literary awards yet his sales are massive. OWPvP will never be as popular as PvE due to its less casual nature and the need for the right kind of player mentality to cope.  
    Does anyone else notice how players will often use terms that make themselves sound tougher or better than other players? Especially when talking about a preference for features? It's often phrased in a way to sound reasonable, but it is really just a way to say, "Playing a game with feature X makes me better than you". Is that just me?  
    I'm sorry, where did I say one was better than the other. That's right, I didn't. I said they were for people with a specific mindset and you need the right kind of mentality to cope with the specific challenges inherent in an OWPvP game. Please don't foist your own issues onto me.


    That's just it. Even when it sounds reasonable, it boils down to, "Playing this style game makes me better than other people."

    They're games. You don't need coping mechanisms to deal with them. You either like the style of play, or you don't.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,643Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Homitu
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    Does anyone else notice how players will often use terms that make themselves sound tougher or better than other players? Especially when talking about a preference for features? It's often phrased in a way to sound reasonable, but it is really just a way to say, "Playing a game with feature X makes me better than you". Is that just me?

     

    All I know is I'm obviously a better player than anyone who plays themepark MMOs.  And I'm definitely more skilled, because everyone knows the games I play take more skill.  

     

    Actually, not really true...

    You could be the absolute worst PvPer in Darkfall, for example. An absolute joke, with skills way below someone who prefers optional PvP in their game. Simply logging in to a OWPvP game dosen't elevate anyone above anyone else in PvP skill.

    All we have is e-peen to indicate otherwise.

  • TorikTorik London, ONPosts: 2,343Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Originally posted by lizardbones  

    Originally posted by RefMinor Open world PvP is for those who like games of war, for those who like to challenge themselves against other players. War is nasty, brutal and often unfair, it's about the survival of the fittest, if you find yourself in a fair fight then your tactics suck.   Not everyone is tempramentally suited to playing them and so if they aren't, they shouldn't play them. The people who try them and can't cope are unable to accept that they are not suited to the game and need to believe that the concept of the game is flawed to avoid the truth that it is they who couldn't adapt.   Population size is no guide to the quality of a game or its gameplay, you don't see Dan Brown winning literary awards yet his sales are massive. OWPvP will never be as popular as PvE due to its less casual nature and the need for the right kind of player mentality to cope.  
    Does anyone else notice how players will often use terms that make themselves sound tougher or better than other players? Especially when talking about a preference for features? It's often phrased in a way to sound reasonable, but it is really just a way to say, "Playing a game with feature X makes me better than you". Is that just me?  
    I'm sorry, where did I say one was better than the other. That's right, I didn't. I said they were for people with a specific mindset and you need the right kind of mentality to cope with the specific challenges inherent in an OWPvP game. Please don't foist your own issues onto me.

    That's just it. Even when it sounds reasonable, it boils down to, "Playing this style game makes me better than other people."

    They're games. You don't need coping mechanisms to deal with them. You either like the style of play, or you don't.

     

    I actually think RefMinor was rather neutral in his language use and you are reading too mcuh into his statements.

    On the other hand it is quite easy for such statements to become condensanding and it is a frequent occurance on these forums.  Most of the people making those statements don't even realize that they are insulting and seem to naturally assume that their playstyle is superior.  

  • risenbonesrisenbones Galesburg, ILPosts: 194Member

    I don't hate it.  I just prefer not to participate these days.

     

    It stems from alot of things but mostly it's the participants.

     

    Back in the day if you got ganked you could let people know about it in a non whiney way and people would actually come and help you deal with the ganker and what started as a gank would turn into an all in brawl as both sides let people know there was a fight going on and people piled in for fun.  These days if you tell someone you got ganked and you would like some help getting pay back your either ignored or called some version of crybaby carebear and told to quit.

     

    You used to be able to message the guy who killed you especially if it was close and share a moment of mutal respect for each others skills sometimes you would evan learn a thing or two about how to plug some holes in your build.  Now you message a person who kills you and it's assumed your being sarcastic and you get a message back filled with bile and QQ moar carebear why don't you stfu and quit already.

     

    Then again maybe it's me I had a greater tolerance of crap when I was younger and as I get older having to wade through all the bad to find the nugget of good just doesn't seem worth it anymore.

    The lesser of two evils is still evil.

    There is nothing more dangerous than a true believer.

  • MadimorgaMadimorga Atlanta, GAPosts: 2,014Member Common

    I don't hate OWPvP, I hate how most games that have it seem to think it should be in all areas of their game.  I'd love to play a game that mixes them well.  Eve seemed to do a good job, so something along those lines would be fine.  Make it impossible or painfully expensive to kill someone in some areas, make it cheap and easy in others.  

     

    And then don't force those who aren't willing to pvp into pvp areas by dangling essential goods, housing, xp, or whatever.  Just dangle optional things, like faster currency gain, or ever so slightly better loot, or maybe just a slightly higher droprate on rare loot.

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  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,455Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Madimorga

     

     

    And then don't force those who aren't willing to pvp into pvp areas by dangling essential goods, housing, xp, or whatever.  Just dangle optional things, like faster currency gain, or ever so slightly better loot, or maybe just a slightly higher droprate on rare loot.

    I would have to disagree with this part. They SHOULD have desirable things in pvp areas.

    Then, if people don't want to go into the pvp areas to obtain them, those things should be sellable by the people who are willing to go into the area.

    of course this speaks to the type of gameplay I'm interested in which would be more of an open world "world" where the community works together/battles against each other for such things.

    There is no reason by pve players and pvp players can't work together.

    Then again, I'm also for high level monsters put close to noob areas and if new players aren't careful they get wiped. So I might be in the minority.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Madimorga     And then don't force those who aren't willing to pvp into pvp areas by dangling essential goods, housing, xp, or whatever.  Just dangle optional things, like faster currency gain, or ever so slightly better loot, or maybe just a slightly higher droprate on rare loot.
    I would have to disagree with this part. They SHOULD have desirable things in pvp areas.

    Then, if people don't want to go into the pvp areas to obtain them, those things should be sellable by the people who are willing to go into the area.

    of course this speaks to the type of gameplay I'm interested in which would be more of an open world "world" where the community works together/battles against each other for such things.

    There is no reason by pve players and pvp players can't work together.

    Then again, I'm also for high level monsters put close to noob areas and if new players aren't careful they get wiped. So I might be in the minority.




    I agree with Sovrath on the resources. If the PvP is to have meaning, then it needs to be used to obtain something in the game, like territory or resources. If the PvP has no purpose besides PvP, then it's inevitable that ganking and griefing will occur. Territory control and resources are good reasons for PvP to happen.

    At the same time, I'm in favor of players being able to create safe places for PvE activities. This gives players incentive to control territory. If player controlled territory isn't really safe, there's not too much reason to control it. In the case of owned territory not being safe, it would be better to just run around like a marauder taking resources from other players.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • Reza82Reza82 Ottawa, ONPosts: 40Member Uncommon

    I love OWPVP, but hate the ganking... 

    I don`t know if this would work, but if there was a system in place that would keep track of ganking, by just taking the difference in lvl into account, so the person ganking gets "marked" somehow.. by measuring the difference in lvl or whatever and putting this towards a Total open world pvp score.  In the end this may simply be a way to keep score of who is the best ganker, but, the score itself might allow for self-regulation by the online community.  Just a thought...

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member

    Mostly because almost all the devs that have done it, have done it wrong.

     

    Dark Age of Camelot, Ultima Online, Darkfall, and Eve are some of the only ones that did it right.

    You cannot have FFA PVP in a level/loot based game.

  • JetrpgJetrpg Whitehouse, OHPosts: 2,376Member
    Originally posted by Parasitenoir

    Hey guys - (just to start so no flaming occurs) i will be playing gw2 so I am not a hater.  I just have a more general question.

     

    Why is it that people do not like true open world pvp, where you can gank anyone while they are questing etc.  I enjoyed it in wow while it existed (vanilla-slightly BC), Rift was good, and currently gaming in Tera.

    Is it the annoyance of being ganked and not being able to defend yourself.  Does it provide to much of a challenge.  Or is our generation just lazy and prefer to sit in a town and just que for stuff.

     

    I personally like the OWPVP and being able to mess with someones day while there gathering, questing whatever there doing .

     

    what are peoples thoughts on this?

    Cuz 99% of it is just a level 90 killing a level 10. ie pointless bother.

    Now i loved the fronteirs in DAOC, people exped on them they had the BEST exp (you got a bonus for being there) so it was tempting to exp your lower level characters out there... but you could be ganked (its not griefing because your intentionally putting yourself in that situation). And well if the area was too hot .. you left and could still exp in the non-pvp world areas. Genious, i don't understand why dev.s don't understand risk vs reward even on small basic levels like this; anymore.

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