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Why do People Hate OWPVP?

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  • JonokuJonoku Cool, PAPosts: 645Member
    Originally posted by mastersomrat
    Because most of the time PvP in a game a lvl based.  PvP should always be skill based.

    in SWG, it was all skill, do you want to toggle or not your choice. depends on the game/server.

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  • HorusraHorusra maryland, MDPosts: 2,583Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ZigZags

    Most people are cry babies and casuals who dont want to lose something they spent hours or days going after. Plus it would be against their Dr.'s orders because of the increase in blood pressure that is associated with the adrenalin rush of actual excitement.

     

    That's why games like WoW and GW2 exist, so people like that have somewhere safe to play.

     

    This is the reason many do not want to play opvp.  Why play with people that resort to name calling and degrading others.  Someone that believes excitement can only be found in their entertainment.  With players like this I am happy they can go off to their own games and leave the rest of us alone.  Where they can stroke their epeens and voice their insults in a chat with no one listening to them.

  • DeivosDeivos Mountain View, CAPosts: 1,796Member Uncommon

    I like open world PvP, but I also realize that enough people will behave in poor conduct if given the chance that the fun may get ruined rather easily for the average player.

     

    For example. in Asheron's Call when you ported anywhere there was a good chance on Darktide (ffa pvp server) that you would pop out the other side getting attacked by some yahoo that was just waiting nearby.

     

    In Lineage I've gotten tales recanted of people intentionally harassing entire cities to torment new/low level players.

     

    In WoW before the honor system and other stuff people used to camp out more by Tarren Mill and Lakeshire s groups of max levels waxing lowbies. Higher level players show up and they split, leaving a rogue behind to watch for a while until the competition leaves, then go back to work harassing people.

     

    Like I mentioned elsewhere, games have an added dimension of challenge with competitive play because of the aptly named Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory (GIFT, courtesy of Penny Arcade). Accountability is at a low to nonexistant point in games and people don't seem to have any qualms leaving respect behind as a result. I mean look at some of the responses people make here. Some people launch into sarcasm and derision the instance the thing they prefer is attacked.

     

    The problem this causes makes a very difficult situation to overcome when one desires PvP because they are faced with a very tough situation.

     

    They can make a system that offers PvP within strict rules, so as to avoid as many of the ways it can be abused against major cossections of players.

     

    Or they can make it open and trust the same community ro regulate tiself, which rarely works out due to the aforementioned GIFT.

     

    Now I'm sure one can claim examples and instances of this not exactly being true. Moments where a game like Lineage 2 might have an ok self policed location or people being able to beat back some gankers effectively. However, those are also fair to be called exceptions to the rules, not the standard.

     

    Now, I'm generally ok with PvP. My largest gripe with WoW when it first came out was...well I wasn't fond of the game in general but for this I'll note that I never regarded the PvP servers as true PvP. They were normal servers with RvR. Poorly implemented RvR at that. This would be my DAoC talking though.

    One of my early experiences in WoW's PvP though was, like many I'd could venture to assume given chat at the time, getting ganked a good few times while trying to level in early zones. That didn't particularly stop me from playing as I had moments I properly enjoyed. Like when I was playing my paladin and a hunter tried ganking me on the way to southshore. He was higher level than me, but a bad player. and I ended up saving myself from dying and chasing him halfway across that zone to kill him because he kept trying to escape me after the failed gank. I really appreciated that moment.

    But I also knew that was not a normal moment. That hunter wouldn't have been out trying to gank people like me if he thought it was a challenge. That was obvious enough by him freaking out and trying to run away.

     

    Also I see someone saying to just get a group, guild, or friends to help when you get ganked. I have to clarify that while that can solve some situations, it's always temporary and it's not always something can or will happen. Other people aren't available 24/7. I frequently play with people on the opposite side of the world because of my schedule. If I'm off hours for them then I am down a guild. If I want to get my fridns to help they have to also not be busy. Even if others are on and playing, they are not necessarily available to help. So all in all it's a copout to just tell someone it'll be ok if you just have people, because it won't. It will situationally be ok sometimes.

    The rest of the time you have to realize you rolled on a server that lets people harass you and accept it or find something else to do for a while.

    And that tends to be the point of contention. When one person's entertainment is forcing other people to not be entertained. It hapens in PvE as well as PvP and ties straight back to that GIFT problem. If given the means, someone somewhere will be looking for a fun way to ruin someone else's day.

    "The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners."
    - Thomas B. Macaulay

  • JonokuJonoku Cool, PAPosts: 645Member
    Originally posted by Horusra
    Originally posted by ZigZags

    Most people are cry babies and casuals who dont want to lose something they spent hours or days going after. Plus it would be against their Dr.'s orders because of the increase in blood pressure that is associated with the adrenalin rush of actual excitement.

     

    That's why games like WoW and GW2 exist, so people like that have somewhere safe to play.

     

    This is the reason many do not want to play opvp.  Why play with people that resort to name calling and degrading others.  Someone that believes excitement can only be found in their entertainment.  With players like this I am happy they can go off to their own games and leave the rest of us alone.  Where they can stroke their epeens and voice their insults in a chat with no one listening to them.

    Some people hate drama, nothing against them. For example, some elite guild vs elite guild who's better then who, obviously no matter what you say, the member of one of the elite guilds wlll always say their guild is better, never ending discussions which produce drama.

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  • ArglebargleArglebargle Austin, TXPosts: 1,417Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Horusra
    Originally posted by Jonoku

    It's turning into a flame war of course, using the word hardcore players are bitching about games not being what it use to be of OPvP. Like I said before, read my previous post, we can talk about this for a thousand years and not agree or make no progress of agreement.

    We can always say that players that hate getting ganked bitch about it. Solution: Leave the game/join a pve server. Simple as shit really.

    They do...and the OPvP servers are the smallest and OPvP games dwindle to niche status.

    This is the truth they do not want to see.   It's a niche preference, and will lead to smaller games and communities.  I personally have no problem with it:  I simply stay away.   As do lots of others.   There is a malignant minority of PvPers who come to these sorts of games to make other people feel bad.  Not interested in spending time with those folks.

     

    I have played a lot  of miniatures, board, and wargames face to face.   But in those, I get to choose the people I prefer to play with.  I do the same for online games.

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • JonokuJonoku Cool, PAPosts: 645Member
    how about make a poll, do you like OPvP? Yes or no or I don't care aka idgaf.

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  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jonoku
    Originally posted by Horusra
    Originally posted by Jonoku

    It's turning into a flame war of course, using the word hardcore players are bitching about games not being what it use to be of OPvP. Like I said before, read my previous post, we can talk about this for a thousand years and not agree or make no progress of agreement.

    We can always say that players that hate getting ganked bitch about it. Solution: Leave the game/join a pve server. Simple as shit really.

    They do...and the OPvP servers are the smallest and OPvP games dwindle to niche status.

    nowadays, PvP servers aren't worth mentioning because the quality of it is just terrible nowadays(so just say all the servers are pve basically). Some company will be smart enough to bring the quality back just takes time, majority are still waiting on that quality sandbox game, not to bring sandbox vs themepark discussion up either, just an example of bringing it back.

     

    I am for sure but not with OWPvP and I don't think the two are synonymous.  There are plenty of games, outside of fantasy MMOs, that provide ways to build without the need for someone else to tear it down.  In the end one side has the same chance of convincing the other and visa-versa.

     

    IMO the best way to ensure both have equal stay is to have them share the same big gameworld in pockets or regions.  Allow natural dynamics to appear with the changing story of the world where you have the freedom to PvP or not as you will.  I think it would work.

  • ClocksimusClocksimus Barrie, ONPosts: 354Member

    The simpliest answer is often the most accurate sometimes (imo) and that would be, because a human player always loses in PvP.

    Ask yourself, what is the difference between PvP and PvE? 

    Getting ganked by a player? Dying because you  are low HP and and you pull aggro or have a mob spawn on you?

    There is almost a perfect mirror to PvP and PvE repleasing a mob with a player or the other way around and the  same situation can still occur.  Popular PvE games such as WoW have even added PvE mobs designed only to gank players not paying attention. (Fel-Reaver was it? WOW:BC and storm gaint? WoW:WotLK)

    No one likes dying repeatedly in PvE.

    No one likes dying repeatedly in PvP.

    If you are losing you most likely aren't having fun. (not always true if you are a good sport but really.... honor and all that good stuff along with sportsmanship has been long dead to the majority)

    PvE players can hide behind griefers as a scapegoat if they so please but are the first to complain when their raids/dungons are impossible to beat. [mod edit]

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Clocksimus

    The simpliest answer is often the most accurate sometimes (imo) and that would be, because a human player always loses in PvP.

    Ask yourself, what is the difference between PvP and PvE? 

    Getting ganked by a player? Dying because you  are low HP and and you pull aggro or have a mob spawn on you?

    There is almost a perfect mirror to PvP and PvE repleasing a mob with a player or the other way around and the  same situation can still occur.  Popular PvE games such as WoW have even added PvE mobs designed only to gank players not paying attention. (Fel-Reaver was it? WOW:BC and storm gaint? WoW:WotLK)

    No one likes dying repeatedly in PvE.

    No one likes dying repeatedly in PvP.

    If you are losing you most likely aren't having fun. (not always true if you are a good sport but really.... honor and all that good stuff along with sportsmanship has been long dead to the majority)

    PvE players can hide behind griefers as a scapegoat if they so please but are the first to complain when their raids/dungons are impossible to beat. Mobs pwning you? You mad?

     

    I'm not gonna lie, if a developer came up with a system where a mob stalked you and waited until you were low on health to start attacking I would be impressed.

  • TopherpunchTopherpunch Apex, NCPosts: 86Member
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
    I personally really  like open world PvP games. I remember going to Durotar, and tricking people to turn on their PvP and killing them over and over and over. This was a PvP server btw, but the low level zones were "safe" areas...but like EVE, nowhere is safe. It was hilarious the rage I would get in both chat and private messages lol...was so worth it :D

    ^ this is called griefing....

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  • ClocksimusClocksimus Barrie, ONPosts: 354Member
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Originally posted by Clocksimus

    The simpliest answer is often the most accurate sometimes (imo) and that would be, because a human player always loses in PvP.

    Ask yourself, what is the difference between PvP and PvE? 

    Getting ganked by a player? Dying because you  are low HP and and you pull aggro or have a mob spawn on you?

    There is almost a perfect mirror to PvP and PvE repleasing a mob with a player or the other way around and the  same situation can still occur.  Popular PvE games such as WoW have even added PvE mobs designed only to gank players not paying attention. (Fel-Reaver was it? WOW:BC and storm gaint? WoW:WotLK)

    No one likes dying repeatedly in PvE.

    No one likes dying repeatedly in PvP.

    If you are losing you most likely aren't having fun. (not always true if you are a good sport but really.... honor and all that good stuff along with sportsmanship has been long dead to the majority)

    PvE players can hide behind griefers as a scapegoat if they so please but are the first to complain when their raids/dungons are impossible to beat. Mobs pwning you? You mad?

     

    I'm not gonna lie, if a developer came up with a system where a mob stalked you and waited until you were low on health to start attacking I would be impressed.

    [mod edit] Mobs already have stealth it would take a few lines to script that mob to aggro you but  not attack untill you are flagged in combat and follow you untill you break his leash range.  It is possible just hasn't be trolled yet but give it a year blizzard just might do it for kicks.

  • ThorbrandThorbrand West Palm Beach, FLPosts: 1,198Member
    Old school MMOs OWPvP worked because it was policed by the community. There use to be guilds that just hunted gankers and it was kept under control. Now days no one wants to be the good guys and help people they all just want to be A-holes and run around destroying anything and everything. But than again if you didn't have a good standing in the older games you wouldn't be able to do content and level up so there was a risk there for doing it. Today no one cares about anything but themselves.
  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Clocksimus
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Originally posted by Clocksimus

    The simpliest answer is often the most accurate sometimes (imo) and that would be, because a human player always loses in PvP.

    Ask yourself, what is the difference between PvP and PvE? 

    Getting ganked by a player? Dying because you  are low HP and and you pull aggro or have a mob spawn on you?

    There is almost a perfect mirror to PvP and PvE repleasing a mob with a player or the other way around and the  same situation can still occur.  Popular PvE games such as WoW have even added PvE mobs designed only to gank players not paying attention. (Fel-Reaver was it? WOW:BC and storm gaint? WoW:WotLK)

    No one likes dying repeatedly in PvE.

    No one likes dying repeatedly in PvP.

    If you are losing you most likely aren't having fun. (not always true if you are a good sport but really.... honor and all that good stuff along with sportsmanship has been long dead to the majority)

    PvE players can hide behind griefers as a scapegoat if they so please but are the first to complain when their raids/dungons are impossible to beat. Mobs pwning you? You mad?

     

    I'm not gonna lie, if a developer came up with a system where a mob stalked you and waited until you were low on health to start attacking I would be impressed.

    So I take it from that statement you are saying you don't like PvP because other players  are smarter than you? (If someone is able to sneak up on you low HP then yes you've been out witted) Mobs already have stealth it would take a few lines to script that mob to aggro you but  not attack untill you are flagged in combat and follow you untill you break his leash range.  It is possible just hasn't be trolled yet but give it a year blizzard just might do it for kicks.

     

    Nope but saying there is something wrong with a players skill or "hardcoreness" if they don't want OWPvP is about the only angle you have.  Some people just like don't like PvP 24/7 and there is nothing wrong with that.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,461Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
     

    Because it is pointless?

     

    Take Rift as an example since you mentioned it. If 3 guys ran up and started to attack me while I qas questing/hunting I simply did the dance emote while they killed me, went back to my spawn point, paid a couple of silver to get rid of the penalty and went back on my way. What did they gain and what did I lose? Nothing at all.

     

    Now let's say you add a serious penalty to dying so open world PvP can really cause some havoc. Well then people just won't play the game. When people want to log in to get some quests done but can suffer serious consequences when some guy and his 5 friends pop out and kill him, he gets frustrated that his gaming time was wasted and that he is now worse off then when he logged in and he quits the game.

    Well, you are arguing several things here.

    First of all I think you are correct (in the bit I edited out) that most people want to pvp when they are in the mood.

    Having said that, it's not pointless to the people who buy into the system. I would add the caveat that the game designers "should" then build in components that add to the greater game so that the act of 3 guys hitting you leads up to something.

    So in the first example, in Lineage 2, that would create bad blood and a clan war. Maybe even one side getting allies and removing the opposing clan from their castle. That creates conflict and that isn't pointless.

    In the second example I would say that the "victim" was either in the wrong game or on the wrong server.

    The problem with these arguments is that they always tacitly assume that the defender "somehow" ended up in a game where he/she had no idea that their was open ffa pvp and then gets surprised and gets killed.

    I can only name one game that had pvp where it wasn't clear at launch the extent of the "open" part and that is Aion. Only because they kept trying to market the "you can concentrate on the parts you like". They never said you would still have to endure the parts you didn't like.

    But heck, Lineage 2 was my first ever mmo and I had no intent on staying more than a day or two. I just wanted to see what an online game was about. I did my due dilligence, found out all the horrors and that cemented what was to be my "limited experience".

    and 4 1/2 years later I could proudly say it was the best online game experience I ever had.

    Anybody who is claiming to be a victim of ffa pvp either never paid attention, isn't brightest bulb in the set, was naive to think they would "never" get attacked or just tried the game on a lark without any research. Or is looking for something to complain about.

    Becuase the majority of them are very clear about ffa pvp. And the people who want/like ffa pvp are looking for these rare games.

    The solution? Don't play games/servers that don't offer you an experience you will be happy with.

  • DeivosDeivos Mountain View, CAPosts: 1,796Member Uncommon

    I would say you're right, but that's not the problem being addressed. Granted it could just be my interpretation of it.

     

    Like my previous post, and honestly that long winded PvP conversation I recall having with you previously. It's generally about consequences. People can accept that they are in a game where one PvPs well enough, but when there is constant death without consequence, or death that results only in ill consequence, then it is a problem.

     

    It's nothing about people playing the victim. They can only do that if there are victims to be made. Which like you said is a situation that generally relies on not knowing the game you signed up for.

     

    However. I have had conversation with you on the nature of Lineage 2 as well. Even got into the discussion about the major changes that translate between the eastern ans western versions of the game. Most notably the fact they had explicitly stated how they changed the game in response to the differences in how western players show less respect/regard for other players and how that made them seek to implement safeguards for lower level players that they said they previously simply didn;t need in the eastern version.

     

    Which also ties back to my previous posts GIFT commentary.

    "The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners."
    - Thomas B. Macaulay

  • JonokuJonoku Cool, PAPosts: 645Member
    Originally posted by Topherpunch
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
    I personally really  like open world PvP games. I remember going to Durotar, and tricking people to turn on their PvP and killing them over and over and over. This was a PvP server btw, but the low level zones were "safe" areas...but like EVE, nowhere is safe. It was hilarious the rage I would get in both chat and private messages lol...was so worth it :D

    ^ this is called griefing....

    not against the rules....don't complain about it.....learn to counter. Old mmos had success in OPvP, cause the community managed it well and was very smart. You don't complain about it, you find a way to counter it aka deal with it. In life, are you just going to complain about your job or deal with it some how? Complaining does nothing whatsoever.

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  • DeivosDeivos Mountain View, CAPosts: 1,796Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jonoku

    not against the rules....don't complain about it.....learn to counter. Old mmos had success in OPvP, cause the community managed it well and was very smart. You don't complain about it, you find a way to counter it aka deal with it. In life, are you just going to complain about your job or deal with it some how? Complaining does nothing whatsoever.

    I'd argue this for two main reasons. 

     

    One - It's fair to say the community now is different from the community then and as a result needs a different kind of ruleset, for better or worse.

     

    Two - I can think of a few games that are xemplary OWPvP classic titles that had quite the range and shortfalls in community management. Notably I can refer to Asheron's Call that I mentioned before as well as Lineage 2 given the changes that game required to work for western culture in PvP.

     

    Just as well you can end up having other examples such as in Ultima Online. A great example being that dude that killed Lord British.

    Or in Asheron's Call my previous mention of people camping most portal locations. Additionally you easily ended up with people who just formed arbitrary headhunting groups.

     

    Now, there was some examples of policing as well. My brother inspired a lovely guild dedicated to just hunting him down for his griefing exploits in that game. ('I Hate Ima' guild on Darktide PvP server, his character was named 'Ima Dork') But like any modern game this was not necessarily the norm.

     

    A recent example being a thread mentioning the attempts at community trying to regulate players in EVE. Apparently it meets pretty minimal success external to corp internal regulation and there's only a few small places in null-sec that gets moderately regulated by dedicated groups, who still often get trolled and facerolled by larger corps that couldn't give a damn.

     

    And that would be the crux of the problem, how much does the community care as a whole how the rest of the community behaves. Also why I keep citing thew GIFT problem. Nostaliga aside, modern community definitely differs in some important ways as it has grown, and that greatly affects the quality and manner in which PvP and most other gameplay aspects need to be conducted.

    "The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners."
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  • TafaleTafale HaugesundPosts: 37Member
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    When I want to PVP, I PVP. When I don't want to PVP, I don't PVP.

    That is perfectly fine but it has no relevance to OWPvP itself, unless there are no PvE servers. I'm saying this since some people think there shouldn't be OWPvP (i.e. PvP servers) and that is just selfish.

     

    I like to play on a PvE server (and I have done quite a bit of PvP) but I also like that the game has OWPvP for the PvP crowd, otherwise the game will only consist of PvE servers and that is a bit dull tbh (it also give me the option to roll an alt on a PvP server just for fun and no pressure to progress my character like the PvE server based ones).

  • PixilatedPixilated Forney, TXPosts: 30Member

    OWPVP is just another way to say Gankfest-  "IF" the higher level

    players playe'd their level -it's fun ! But when they think PVP is

    killing greys endlessly- no thanks. And that's what grief gankers like.

     

    Now if each area had players scale'd down to the level of the area

    like G2 ,then challenge has been put back into OWPVP -that should

    be the direction of owpvp// imo.

     

  • HomituHomitu Hometown, HIPosts: 2,030Member
    Since the OP brought up GW2, I'd like to suggest that a game with GW2's down-leveling system would be perfect for open world pvp.  I personally love the added tension created when you're questing within sight of players of the opposite faction.  It can get the adrenaline pumping.  What I hate is when open world ganks devolve into calling in higher level backup, or switching to your main max level character.  Games that allow high level players to come in and demolish lower level players without any hope cause more grief than fun and competition.  
  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member

    Open world PvP is for those who like games of war, for those who like to challenge themselves against other players. War is nasty, brutal and often unfair, it's about the survival of the fittest, if you find yourself in a fair fight then your tactics suck.

    Not everyone is tempramentally suited to playing them and so if they aren't, they shouldn't play them.

    The people who try them and can't cope are unable to accept that they are not suited to the game and need to believe that the concept of the game is flawed to avoid the truth that it is they who couldn't adapt.

     

    Population size is no guide to the quality of a game or its gameplay, you don't see Dan Brown winning literary awards yet his sales are massive. OWPvP will never be as popular as PvE due to its less casual nature and the need for the right kind of player mentality to cope.

     

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by RefMinor
    Open world PvP is for those who like games of war, for those who like to challenge themselves against other players. War is nasty, brutal and often unfair, it's about the survival of the fittest, if you find yourself in a fair fight then your tactics suck.Not everyone is tempramentally suited to playing them and so if they aren't, they shouldn't play them.The people who try them and can't cope are unable to accept that they are not suited to the game and need to believe that the concept of the game is flawed to avoid the truth that it is they who couldn't adapt. Population size is no guide to the quality of a game or its gameplay, you don't see Dan Brown winning literary awards yet his sales are massive. OWPvP will never be as popular as PvE due to its less casual nature and the need for the right kind of player mentality to cope. 

    Does anyone else notice how players will often use terms that make themselves sound tougher or better than other players? Especially when talking about a preference for features? It's often phrased in a way to sound reasonable, but it is really just a way to say, "Playing a game with feature X makes me better than you". Is that just me?

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • YakkinYakkin irvine, CAPosts: 919Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Does anyone else notice how players will often use terms that make themselves sound tougher or better than other players? Especially when talking about a preference for features? It's often phrased in a way to sound reasonable, but it is really just a way to say, "Playing a game with feature X makes me better than you". Is that just me?

    Nope. Egos are rampant in MMOs, though it doesn't make me any less annoyed by them.

  • kaliniskalinis Dexter, MEPosts: 1,428Member

    When the players in open world pvp are evenly matched its one thing , The problem in most games is they have levels in some way be it skill level or actualy levels like a level 85 

    The problem is that most times open world pvp means i wanna gank 20s while they quest on my max level character knowing they cant hurt me and i wont get any punishment for doing so. 

    I hated it in wow. If im trying to quest and a max level not only kills me which once i can handle but camps my dead body so i cant play anymore its a problem and is why i hate open world pvp , If it wasnt for people like that open world pvp woudl be fun condequences or not.

     

  • grimalgrimal Stamford, CTPosts: 2,873Member Uncommon

    Mostly because it leads to ganking, bullying, and unruly playground behavior.   And because most of us are past first grade.

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