1. Gear. Always have updated gear, preferably gold (or if possible at your level orange). People complain and say that you shouldnt be forced to gear up for dungeons before max level but for us that play a while it is not so strange, and GW2 have a different view on "endgame" than Wow.
2. Speccs. Get the right skills, particularly condition removals help a lot. Also put points in at least one defensive tree. Put in some skills your teammates can combo with.
3. Teamwork. None trinity combat needs a lot of this or you will die all the time. Work together, get in combos and shift kiteing between several members. And while ANET say you can complete a dungeon with 5 of the same class a bit of variety helps and make things easier.
Vent, Xfire or Skype (whatever you prefer) for teamspeak also makes things a lot easier.
There is strategy, but it is a bit more subtile than in tank and spank. Training will help.
1. Thats kinda werid since GW2 was suppose to promote the whole no gear grind thing, but general mmorpgs rules wise go makes sense.
2. That could be hard unless your going with people you know, which kinda make PUGs suffer which isn't exactly a good idea for a game focus on casual player.
3. Same as before, yes it works if the dungeon was like a hard mode or heroic dungeon meant to challenge player and woudl require player to have good team work, be on voice chat and such. But expecting everyone to do it speically pugs? Its pretty unreasonable to expect static team work from pugs, everyone has their own play style and spec and unless you run with people you know chance are your not going to know what build everyone is using and having to reorganize spec would take a lot of time that many pugs aren't willing to spend because well its freaken pug group.
Also rez...May I say that GW2 is supposed to be the challenging content in the game?
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My experience was the same. I only did a dungeon once and din't even finished it. Even played with guild members.
The problem I had was I could not pull just one enemy, attack one and they all come.
But, I can't really judge the dungeons because I do not know enough of this game and it's mechanics yet. Which brings me to my point; this game needs more tutorial. I mean, how many players know about combo's?
1. Gear. Always have updated gear, preferably gold (or if possible at your level orange). People complain and say that you shouldnt be forced to gear up for dungeons before max level but for us that play a while it is not so strange, and GW2 have a different view on "endgame" than Wow.
2. Speccs. Get the right skills, particularly condition removals help a lot. Also put points in at least one defensive tree. Put in some skills your teammates can combo with.
3. Teamwork. None trinity combat needs a lot of this or you will die all the time. Work together, get in combos and shift kiteing between several members. And while ANET say you can complete a dungeon with 5 of the same class a bit of variety helps and make things easier.
Vent, Xfire or Skype (whatever you prefer) for teamspeak also makes things a lot easier.
There is strategy, but it is a bit more subtile than in tank and spank. Training will help.
1. Thats kinda werid since GW2 was suppose to promote the whole no gear grind thing, but general mmorpgs rules wise go makes sense.
2. That could be hard unless your going with people you know, which kinda make PUGs suffer which isn't exactly a good idea for a game focus on casual player.
3. Same as before, yes it works if the dungeon was like a hard mode or heroic dungeon meant to challenge player and woudl require player to have good team work, be on voice chat and such. But expecting everyone to do it speically pugs? Its pretty unreasonable to expect static team work from pugs, everyone has their own play style and spec and unless you run with people you know chance are your not going to know what build everyone is using and having to reorganize spec would take a lot of time that many pugs aren't willing to spend because well its freaken pug group.
1. Well, if you die alot gear is the easiest fix, you dont have to get it if you play well enough, but I dont and it doesnt seems like you do either. Just ttrying to be helpful and give you actually working advice here...
2 & 3. Dungeons are supposed to be the hardest PvE content, so if you PUG and want to do well you need to coordinate that PUG before playing, unless you are lucky and get good players with the right specc of course, but I doubt you always be lucky
Gear is the easiest way to improve your chanses with a PUG. And no, GW2 do have some gear grind, just a lot less than games with raiding since exotic gear is a lot easier to get than a few tiers up raid gear but anyone saying there is no gear grind whatsoever is either playing a lot better than me or lying.
Rare gear is not that expensive, just getting the cheapest for you current level (or up to 4 below it) from the TP helps a lot if you have no guildcrafter. Blue gear is vendortrash and green is just slightly better, people tend to forget this since they are used to other colorcodes.
This game by far has blown me away in almost every category, the gameplay is fun and the world is bueatiful. The Dynamic events are a great way to level because there is no go fletch quest hubs and so on, but last night I tried a dungeon for the first time.
I was a a level 50 Ranger doing a level 40 CM story mode. I had heard the horror stories of how unorganized, zerg fest they were but I kept telling myself I've played MMO's for so long that it can't be that bad. It was, the lack of a trinity was clear right away.
When entering the zone we started thru the story. First mob is a Golem, solo, and didn't go to bad. One death by a warrior but we got him up fast. I'm thinking ok, not to shabby. Second group of mobs is where it all went downhill. Your first pull there is about 4-5 mobs. Each one of them are "elite" which means even if all 5 of us are attacking it, it takes about 45-60 seconds to burn it down. Except there is no way to do ANYTHING about the other 4 beating on you. There is no tanking, no offtanking, no CC that is worth it. Most CC in this game last 3 seconds maybe. So needless to say, nearly every pull was a wipe. We spent as much time rezing people as we did fighting.
We beat the dungeon, but our strat was to all attack one mob, burn it down hopefully before we wiped, and come back and do it again. We would burn the barrel placers first and so on.
I know that CM was made harder recenetly, but this was just storymode. I felt like I didn't learn anything from the story because I was to busy cringing at this system. There was NOTHING FUN about this dungeon. We also had a person quit and we had to replace them during this dungeon because he said (sorry guys..this dugeon system is horrible..I am going to uninstall).
My character was setup for PVE and grouping. I had healing spring with some points into healing, search and rescue to help with rezing and the healing spirit. There was no way to heal thru that damage. We also had a guardian and that helped some but just prolonged how long it took us to wipe.
I miss my healers, tanks, and true CC. I lost motivation to level now because I do enjoy PVE more then PVP and knowing that is all I have to look forward to in dungeons is quite dishearting. I love every other aspect of this game, crafting, quest, pvp, graphics, but this is to core of a system for me to overlook. There is a difference between core mehanics and difficulty. The core mechanics on dungeons is just broke. Even if they made it super easy and a zerg fest, there would still be no "skill" to the system. It is either boring no pay attention killing, or just a wipe and res as fast as you can event. I miss strategy.
Damn that sucks. Sorry to hear your experience was bad, but everytime I run dungeons in GW2 it is a different game each time because of the group members , which means it's a fresh experience each time and it's a blast , unlike the WoW Dungeons beat them in five minutes.
I remmeber the EQ dungeons back when they took sometimes hours to complete , what we have here folks is too many people who want it easy and the instant gratification that they long , I would suggest WoW and stay clear and far away from the dungeons in GW2 , there , that solves that problem, Next!
My first experience with CM story was at level 40...4/5 my group had never been there before. We had a Ranger, myself (Mesmer), my gf (Ele), a Thief, and an Engineer.
The first pull (the golem) was a nightmare. We aggroed before we were ready. We screwed up constantly. Accidently reset when it was at like 5% hp or less....finally killed it. After that the only CM vet (the Thief) took point, marking mobs and moving carefuly. The first boss after the golem gave us a couple deaths, but no real issues. The rest of teh place was a breeze. The final fight was almost a joke, it was so easy.
My opinion is that the problem isn't the lack of trinity, but rather the dungeons seem like they were designed FOR a trinity-type setup. The mobs hit my 10-levels over damamge sponge engineer like a truck, but I can usually dance around and survive. The people in my party who are running glass canon builds or anything other than vit/toughness heavy builds get creamed quickly and repeatedly.
The non-boss mobs in story mode need to be recalibrated for inexperienced players who aren't used to combos, dynamic evasion, etc.
I have no desire in playing more dungeons. Every time I grouped the strategy was "if you blackout release and run back". One time grouped with 3 elementalists, the run was way better than the others. Dungeons require more coordination than in other games, so a voice comm is recommended. Once it feels like a job, it's not fun anymore. I am sticking with W v W and open world PvE.
My first experience with CM story was at level 40...4/5 my group had never been there before. We had a Ranger, myself (Mesmer), my gf (Ele), a Thief, and an Engineer.
The first pull (the golem) was a nightmare. We aggroed before we were ready. We screwed up constantly. Accidently reset when it was at like 5% hp or less....finally killed it. After that the only CM vet (the Thief) took point, marking mobs and moving carefuly. The first boss after the golem gave us a couple deaths, but no real issues. The rest of teh place was a breeze. The final fight was almost a joke, it was so easy.
Which reminds me: "pulls" should not exist in MMORPGs for the same reason trinity is loathed: it is a stupid aggro-mechanic. You shouldn't be able to aggro a monster without aggroing all other of his allied ones in his vicinity. By vicinity, I mean every allied monster that is in range to see, hear or smell it.
Originally posted by Aerowyn gotta learn combo fields.. if you get a group together that knows how to utliize combo fields well dungeons can be a blast
Yeap combo fields is a massive mechanic in this game.
Combo fields can heal or protect the crap out of the players. Blindness and confusion is also a massive mechanic that got overlooked by many players because blindness actually allows for avoidance tanking as the mobs can not hit you when blinded. The condition removal effects from healing combo fields also saves lives. Poison and fire fields can effectively double your damage because of the DoTs. Invis from smoke fields - enough said.
These are big mechanic because in this game, even most bosses can not avoid them.
I can tell a lot of players don't even use them by playing side by side with them.
They are a big deal. Probably a bigger deal than what you traits and what skills you have ready (I don't feel traits changes a fight much and are a lot more straightforward in choices, comparison).
a lot of the issue seems to be up till you start doing dungeons many have no clue about the combo system or even how it works. If you read ANET dev diarys about dungeons they talk about how combo field use was in mind when designing the dungeons. So if you are going into them and not utilizing them you are at a pretty big dissadvantage.. Guess the game could use a better explanation of how they work but you always got good old youtube that covers anything you would like to know about them.
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We did fine in the AC dungeons once we figured out strategy. The problem is the rewards are crap. Not worth the effort at all. Oh and by the way if you stand still in the dungeons you won't last long.
my impressions are as follows - the dungeons are very very unforgiving . overall they are great.
1. mobs are incredibly strong (impossibly strong) and it is wise not to pull more than one regular mob at a time as they can seriously screw with your group.
2. the mini-boss fights are fairly straight forward, while the boss fights are incredibly fun and well written.
- the dungeon system simply is a whole nother level than the rest of the game and i feel that most people will find them either too challenging or too time consuming, but they are great. and the action and complexity is something that could not have been achieved with a tank and spank system.
complain: loot is not on par with the difficulty of the dungeon.... those dungeons need to re-think the loot, as it is not good enough for the difficulty of it all.
My first experience with CM story was at level 40...4/5 my group had never been there before. We had a Ranger, myself (Mesmer), my gf (Ele), a Thief, and an Engineer.
The first pull (the golem) was a nightmare. We aggroed before we were ready. We screwed up constantly. Accidently reset when it was at like 5% hp or less....finally killed it. After that the only CM vet (the Thief) took point, marking mobs and moving carefuly. The first boss after the golem gave us a couple deaths, but no real issues. The rest of teh place was a breeze. The final fight was almost a joke, it was so easy.
Posted this prior to going to work so just now seeing all the replies, thanks for the good feedback. I will go into a bit more detail on some things thou. First they just changed CM to make it harder a few days ago and I was talking about the current state of CM not the previous easier version I can not speak on.
My issue is not that the content was hard. I do not like easy games. I also played EQ1 and loved fighting my way thru a dungeon to hold a camp spot for hours while having to be at your best to maintain pulling/exp. My issue was that it was just a pure zerg fest with very little strat. I understand combo fields and we did use them, (had a guardian and Ele), but that little extra fire/elec damage and that 3 second defense shield in the grand scheme of things was pretty worthless.
We did take our time and pull mobs together without rushing. It didn't stop the mob from 1-2 shotting people. It didn't stop the dogs from chain fearing us for 5-10 seconds. Getting feared while someonething is doing damage to you is retarded. Just to get out of it and not have enough time to hit your heal key before you are refeared. All the time other mobs are dropping barrels on the ground that exploded that you can't aviod because you are feared. Our CC's are no where near as useful on them.
The mobs do way more damage then we can heal/block thru. The mobs aggro all over the place so kitting is hard to do when they just turn and run a different way. Also rezing in combat takes a long time and normally we just get both of ourselves killed the process. There is no strat. The mobs are all random and do random stuff every time. Sometimes my bear pet goes in and last for 30 seconds on the boss, the next time hes dead in 2 hits. I would like to feel that I can control the outcome of a fight with atleast some skill level. I want to feel that if I put in the practice and time it will get easier. I like to know I am improving. All in all, it just wasnt fun.
my impressions are as follows - the dungeons are very very unforgiving . overall they are great.
1. mobs are incredibly strong (impossibly strong) and it is wise not to pull more than one regular mob at a time as they can seriously screw with your group.
2. the mini-boss fights are fairly straight forward, while the boss fights are incredibly fun and well written.
- the dungeon system simply is a whole nother level than the rest of the game and i feel that most people will find them either too challenging or too time consuming, but they are great. and the action and complexity is something that could not have been achieved with a tank and spank system.
complain: loot is not on par with the difficulty of the dungeon.... those dungeons need to re-think the loot, as it is not good enough for the difficulty of it all.
Every boss in CM was tank and spank. How is that well written? Also you pull all the mobs, there is no way to pull *just one*.
We did take our time and pull mobs together without rushing. It didn't stop the mob from 1-2 shotting people. It didn't stop the dogs from chain fearing us for 5-10 seconds. Getting feared while someonething is doing damage to you is retarded. Just to get out of it and not have enough time to hit your heal key before you are refeared. All the time other mobs are dropping barrels on the ground that exploded that you can't aviod because you are feared. Our CC's are no where near as useful on them.
That is your problem right there.
CC is not meant to be used for dungeon. Combo fields is the reason where you are not surviving. Blind, confusion, condition removal and dodge, once again, is more of a key mechanic in this game than CC or healing. In WoW or other games on the other hand blind and such doesn't work on bosses.
If you combo fielded correctly, healing will not even need to be managed and the damage from mobs will be much less.
The problem is a lot of players are bringing in what they know from other games into this game. You pretty much got to empty your cup and learn from scratch. It is a different mechanic all together.
my impressions are as follows - the dungeons are very very unforgiving . overall they are great.
1. mobs are incredibly strong (impossibly strong) and it is wise not to pull more than one regular mob at a time as they can seriously screw with your group.
2. the mini-boss fights are fairly straight forward, while the boss fights are incredibly fun and well written.
- the dungeon system simply is a whole nother level than the rest of the game and i feel that most people will find them either too challenging or too time consuming, but they are great. and the action and complexity is something that could not have been achieved with a tank and spank system.
complain: loot is not on par with the difficulty of the dungeon.... those dungeons need to re-think the loot, as it is not good enough for the difficulty of it all.
Every boss in CM was tank and spank. How is that well written? Also you pull all the mobs, there is no way to pull *just one*.
have not done CM so no comment there. but mobs can indeed be pulled. sometimes pulling "just one" is impossible, but hey, that's what groupwork is there for .
you need to adjust to the play style of this game. if your group mates do not have induvidual SKILL then you will have a bad time. i do not believe that CM is tank and soank simply by my experience in the game.
you want CC to last longer but that would just make things easier, taking away complexity
Here's my thing with combo fields. I play a necro. I'm going to lay down fields (AoE) naturally to do damage. Then I will shoot into that combo field, naturally. I will drop my AoE (combo field) heal when it's needed, naturally. People running into it for a heal will dps out of it naturally. The system is in place, but along with the skill system, there is room for a lot more. As it stands now it almost feels like a passive effect, or something that's going to naturally happen.
Maybe if triggering combo fields did something active instead of causing a semi-passive debuff. It just seems like the warriors 5 whirl finishers (the class with the most weapon variety in weapon choice) should have different effects. Ability Y should do X in combo field A. As it stands now Ability Z also does X in combo field A, just like ability N,I, and E.
slightly off topic, but you can connect the dots lol.
Just got something to say to the people crying for nerf, saying the dungeons are too hard (funniest thing is some people here are crying about STORY MODE LOLOLOL) or that the trash mobs can 2 shot you, either l2p with teamwork or go play WoW style carebare dungeons.
Also found this in another thread recently :
Things said by arenanet that are happening (with source) thread
They don't want graveyard zerg in dungeons.
They plan on balancing bosses and adding more attack patterns to bosses
Rewards getting tweaked in dungeons.
They aren't planning on nerfing dungeons because some babies think they're too hard.
Get used to it people because things won't change soon. I'm actually very glad that arenanet won't follow the trend of listening to crybabies on the forums because content is "too hard" for them.
I also ran CM as a lvl 50 elementalist for the first time in story mode a few nights ago (My first GW2 dungeon run). My reaction was pretty much the complete opposite of the OP's.
At first I was like WTF is this shit?! The first golem boss must have wiped each of us in the group several times or so. It was very shocking to have a boss in a MMO 2 shot you in a low lvl dungeon(the first boss mind you). The next pull once you enter the mansion is even worse, They just throw too many elite's at you in too small of a confined area to do any sort of kiting. Our group found it much easier to just kite them outside the mansion where there is much more room to move around.
As the run went on , the entire group started to wipe less &less each pull. I think all of us without saying a word to each other kind of figured out we needed to move,Kite CC and pretty much utulize all of our skills. Its hard to break out of that WOW tank and spank mentality that we are all so use to.
I found myself as a elementalist pretty much playing a total support role during the run. I would open up with fire pull all agro and the use all my CC's abiltys (LIGHTNING static CC,ICE CC,Earth CC) kite the mobs in a circle while the rest of the group dps. When they eventually pulled agro off me i would throw out some AOE heling and go back to fire for dps.
I really enjoyed the fast paced, challenging difficulty. To be honest once you L2P your class and break out of the WOW tank & spank mentality the game really shines. Can't wait to try all the other dungeons and I really hope A-Net doesn't cave to all the whiners who want instances nerfed.
The dungeons are pretty bad. Badly designed and badly programmed. You'd think a bug that causes a final boss to disappear would be fixed very soon, but you'd be wrong.
The bosses are mostly very simple, they just do a lot of damage and have a ton of health. There arnt many bosses that have more than 3 abilities.
Ignoring bugs that's incorrect, cm is certainly a tank n spank but ac is a different kettle of fish and requires specific tactics, with the lovers requiring for example the boss positions to be managed and strong damage mitigation and add control.
Re complaining about difficulty, don't be daft!. An example we ran ac for our first time and we got destroyed, wiping many times etc. the 2nd run we all adjusted our traits, managed marking a lot better and worked out a strategy that worked. We never wiped once. Being able to clear an instance with no wipes after only 2 runs is hardly difficult (and that was without vent)
If you want challenging encounters then you may die a lot on the first go while you learn an encounter- how else could it be?
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I also ran CM as a lvl 50 elementalist for the first time in story mode a few nights ago (My first GW2 dungeon run). My reaction was pretty much the complete opposite of the OP's.
At first I was like WTF is this shit?! The first golem boss must have wiped each of us in the group several times or so. It was very shocking to have a boss in a MMO 2 shot you in a low lvl dungeon(the first boss mind you). The next pull once you enter the mansion is even worse, They just throw too many elite's at you in too small of a confined area to do any sort of kiting. Our group found it much easier to just kite them outside the mansion where there is much more room to move around.
As the run went on , the entire group started to wipe less &less each pull. I think all of us without saying a word to each other kind of figured out we needed to move,Kite CC and pretty much utulize all of our skills. Its hard to break out of that WOW tank and spank mentality that we are all so use to.
I found myself as a elementalist pretty much playing a total support role during the run. I would open up with fire pull all agro and the use all my CC's abiltys (LIGHTNING static CC,ICE CC,Earth CC) kite the mobs in a circle while the rest of the group dps. When they eventually pulled agro off me i would throw out some AOE heling and go back to fire for dps.
I really enjoyed the fast paced, challenging difficulty. To be honest once you L2P your class and break out of the WOW tank & spank mentality the game really shines. Can't wait to try all the other dungeons and I really hope A-Net doesn't cave to all the whiners who want instances nerfed.
Man, I am only going to say this one more time because people read something and just get it in their head they know exactly what the problem is. I DID NOT SAY I WANTED THE ZONE TO BE NERFED. I ALSO DID NOT SAY I WAS DIEING EVERY FIGHT AND HAD NO IDEA WHAT I WAS DOING.
I said that while we were in there the mobs were just tank and spank and had NO strategy to them. As a matter of fact I can easily say the only reason we did as well as we did in there was because I was a kiting machine that was managing my pets and skills like a pro. I have played MMO's for a long time and know what I am doing. I was using our Ele's combo field and I was placing my healing spring on the melee and pets. I was doing my job. Even when doing my job there was nothing "special" about the zone. All the mobs just hit you hard and did the same 2 attacks the entire time. The "champion" mobs were the same as the elites just more HP and hit harder. When you play other games like Tera or TSW and you go into a boss encounter there is that (o crap did you see that moment) that get you all exicited, in GW2 the entire time I was like...how far till the end because this is retarded. I listen to the story, I read the text, and watched the mobs actions. It was boring. Very poor design. The only difference from Dungeons and Open zone dynamic events is that they are in an instances and the mobs hit harder and have more HP. That is not a "good" system.
I dont care if they made the zone a cake walk or damn near impossible, I didn't like the Dungeon. So please stop putting words in my mouth, I do not want the zone easier and I do know how to play my class. I just didn't like the dungeon. The rest of the game is probably some of the best gaming experiences I have had since UO and EQ.
Wow, thats 20 hours a day (game has been out for 30 days I think - August 25 (early access) to today included)... that leaves 4 hours to sleep, washing, eating, etc...
Yeah, sure
And you played 600+ hours in 30 days and didn't notice you can switch builds for a 3s50c fee at any trainer?
You hit the nail on the head there Korrigan.
A player who opens their arguement with a dismissive 'I have more time online in GW2 than you so any counter-arguement you make is invalid' and then overblows it with an impossible figure.
.... and another poster saying they 'miss strategy'.... hell that translates pretty accurately to 'I miss predictable scripting and repeat same tactic = win' gameplay.
The comment on combo fields is also well made - they make a tremendous difference.
I for one run dungeons with power/toughness/heal accessories and power/crit/condition damage armour and weapons and do just fine. You only need to stack vitality/toughness/power if you lack skill and/or adaptability.
The difference between a PUG lacking in cohesion and synergy and a guild-team who understand that the whole is more than the sum of the parts is very marked in dungeons.
Yes it is a more complex challenge. Yes, you will wipe a lot if you go in wth your 'WoW Raid Head', but things improve significantly once you realise the dungeons in GW2 require a more flexible form of team play.
I have experienced some of the worst and the best dungeon runs in this regard and it is as clear as crystal why the bad was painful, and the good was a triumph.
It will be obvious to anyone else still struggling as long as they stick at it - better yet, get into one of my Guilds dungeon runs and see the difference for yourself.
The game is a new take on things - clinging to the old paradigms isn't going to work.
My guild runs dungeons twice weekly and I've been on most runs. What has become obvious to me from when we first started doing it until now is how much easier things are now. When I think back to that first AC Howling King run where the graveling event seemed impossible it makes me smile.
Why? Because people have learned to play their professions better. People are understanding and remembering their abilities and using them in the right circumstances. In my view this has got to be the #1 reason why people find dungeons hard. They don't know what to do and they don't know what they can do with their own profession.
As Aerowyn said quite rightly combo fields make a huge difference. Area weakness, area might etc. on a group pull is just an example of how it just got easier by ratcheting up your party's damage. But knowing how to use your abilities is also key. Want some CC? Stick a ranger bear pet on a target, pop a net turret, get a thief to call in his buddies, use cripples and kite the mobs. It's a dynamic combat game so don't expect to just CC a target and forget about it for 30 secs.
Dungeon play is SO different from other games that it really is about learning a whole new style of play and being in a tightly coordinated group that knows their profession. I'm not talking about skill in playing the profession (I am not someone with the reflexes of a 16 year old) but knowing your abilities and thinking about how to apply them to the situation.
In my opinion the dungeon system is far better this way then with the holy trinity.
The downed state also gives you a chance not to die immediately and if played well in a team you can come back on your feet several times aswell.
Not a chance like that in the boring holy trinity system in which you need certain builds to even enter a dungeon and then when one drops all ends because you can't do it anymore (unlike in GW2s design in which I did dungeons with 4 people aswell).
You also don't need hours of searching and are accepted in a group no matter what your profession is.
So yes, it is harder and needs more organization but for that you get people in your team and jump in instead of wasting tons of time on looking for a certain type of tank or healer for between 20 minutes and over a hour, only to get someone to drop out or people to start blaming each other for their own faults.
I had bad groups and I had good to very good groups and the professions didn't play a big role, the teamwork did.
As a elementalist I'm getting targeted a lot by the mobs (well by the people in WvsWvsW aswell actually...) as the first target to be taken down.
For that I have alot of defences and traits up that are helping me and my team in such situations.
When I know a dungeon and how it works I let the people know and we try to go ahead as organized as possible.
This way a run can work like a charm with being defeated only 1 to 2 times in the whole dungeon.
All you need to do is utilize everything you have effectively and situation based while keeping an eye on your team and environment additionaly to the action.
Yes it can be hard but it's possible and it definately works. Most of all it's fun for me cause I get to do much more than being the "healer" out of the 5 that stays in the back waiting for the "tank" to take a certain amount of damage and heal not too much so I won't draw the aggro my way.
Comments
1. Thats kinda werid since GW2 was suppose to promote the whole no gear grind thing, but general mmorpgs rules wise go makes sense.
2. That could be hard unless your going with people you know, which kinda make PUGs suffer which isn't exactly a good idea for a game focus on casual player.
3. Same as before, yes it works if the dungeon was like a hard mode or heroic dungeon meant to challenge player and woudl require player to have good team work, be on voice chat and such. But expecting everyone to do it speically pugs? Its pretty unreasonable to expect static team work from pugs, everyone has their own play style and spec and unless you run with people you know chance are your not going to know what build everyone is using and having to reorganize spec would take a lot of time that many pugs aren't willing to spend because well its freaken pug group.
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CM is the easiest dungeon....
Also rez...May I say that GW2 is supposed to be the challenging content in the game?
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My experience was the same. I only did a dungeon once and din't even finished it. Even played with guild members.
The problem I had was I could not pull just one enemy, attack one and they all come.
But, I can't really judge the dungeons because I do not know enough of this game and it's mechanics yet. Which brings me to my point; this game needs more tutorial. I mean, how many players know about combo's?
1. Well, if you die alot gear is the easiest fix, you dont have to get it if you play well enough, but I dont and it doesnt seems like you do either. Just ttrying to be helpful and give you actually working advice here...
2 & 3. Dungeons are supposed to be the hardest PvE content, so if you PUG and want to do well you need to coordinate that PUG before playing, unless you are lucky and get good players with the right specc of course, but I doubt you always be lucky
Gear is the easiest way to improve your chanses with a PUG. And no, GW2 do have some gear grind, just a lot less than games with raiding since exotic gear is a lot easier to get than a few tiers up raid gear but anyone saying there is no gear grind whatsoever is either playing a lot better than me or lying.
Rare gear is not that expensive, just getting the cheapest for you current level (or up to 4 below it) from the TP helps a lot if you have no guildcrafter. Blue gear is vendortrash and green is just slightly better, people tend to forget this since they are used to other colorcodes.
Damn that sucks. Sorry to hear your experience was bad, but everytime I run dungeons in GW2 it is a different game each time because of the group members , which means it's a fresh experience each time and it's a blast , unlike the WoW Dungeons beat them in five minutes.
I remmeber the EQ dungeons back when they took sometimes hours to complete , what we have here folks is too many people who want it easy and the instant gratification that they long , I would suggest WoW and stay clear and far away from the dungeons in GW2 , there , that solves that problem, Next!
I'm surprised by the OP actually.
My first experience with CM story was at level 40...4/5 my group had never been there before. We had a Ranger, myself (Mesmer), my gf (Ele), a Thief, and an Engineer.
The first pull (the golem) was a nightmare. We aggroed before we were ready. We screwed up constantly. Accidently reset when it was at like 5% hp or less....finally killed it. After that the only CM vet (the Thief) took point, marking mobs and moving carefuly. The first boss after the golem gave us a couple deaths, but no real issues. The rest of teh place was a breeze. The final fight was almost a joke, it was so easy.
My opinion is that the problem isn't the lack of trinity, but rather the dungeons seem like they were designed FOR a trinity-type setup. The mobs hit my 10-levels over damamge sponge engineer like a truck, but I can usually dance around and survive. The people in my party who are running glass canon builds or anything other than vit/toughness heavy builds get creamed quickly and repeatedly.
The non-boss mobs in story mode need to be recalibrated for inexperienced players who aren't used to combos, dynamic evasion, etc.
Which reminds me: "pulls" should not exist in MMORPGs for the same reason trinity is loathed: it is a stupid aggro-mechanic. You shouldn't be able to aggro a monster without aggroing all other of his allied ones in his vicinity. By vicinity, I mean every allied monster that is in range to see, hear or smell it.
a lot of the issue seems to be up till you start doing dungeons many have no clue about the combo system or even how it works. If you read ANET dev diarys about dungeons they talk about how combo field use was in mind when designing the dungeons. So if you are going into them and not utilizing them you are at a pretty big dissadvantage.. Guess the game could use a better explanation of how they work but you always got good old youtube that covers anything you would like to know about them.
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today i ran my first dungeon in GW2.
my impressions are as follows - the dungeons are very very unforgiving
. overall they are great.
1. mobs are incredibly strong (impossibly strong) and it is wise not to pull more than one regular mob at a time as they can seriously screw with your group.
2. the mini-boss fights are fairly straight forward, while the boss fights are incredibly fun and well written.
- the dungeon system simply is a whole nother level than the rest of the game and i feel that most people will find them either too challenging or too time consuming, but they are great. and the action and complexity is something that could not have been achieved with a tank and spank system.
complain: loot is not on par with the difficulty of the dungeon.... those dungeons need to re-think the loot, as it is not good enough for the difficulty of it all.
Posted this prior to going to work so just now seeing all the replies, thanks for the good feedback. I will go into a bit more detail on some things thou. First they just changed CM to make it harder a few days ago and I was talking about the current state of CM not the previous easier version I can not speak on.
My issue is not that the content was hard. I do not like easy games. I also played EQ1 and loved fighting my way thru a dungeon to hold a camp spot for hours while having to be at your best to maintain pulling/exp. My issue was that it was just a pure zerg fest with very little strat. I understand combo fields and we did use them, (had a guardian and Ele), but that little extra fire/elec damage and that 3 second defense shield in the grand scheme of things was pretty worthless.
We did take our time and pull mobs together without rushing. It didn't stop the mob from 1-2 shotting people. It didn't stop the dogs from chain fearing us for 5-10 seconds. Getting feared while someonething is doing damage to you is retarded. Just to get out of it and not have enough time to hit your heal key before you are refeared. All the time other mobs are dropping barrels on the ground that exploded that you can't aviod because you are feared. Our CC's are no where near as useful on them.
The mobs do way more damage then we can heal/block thru. The mobs aggro all over the place so kitting is hard to do when they just turn and run a different way. Also rezing in combat takes a long time and normally we just get both of ourselves killed the process. There is no strat. The mobs are all random and do random stuff every time. Sometimes my bear pet goes in and last for 30 seconds on the boss, the next time hes dead in 2 hits. I would like to feel that I can control the outcome of a fight with atleast some skill level. I want to feel that if I put in the practice and time it will get easier. I like to know I am improving. All in all, it just wasnt fun.
Every boss in CM was tank and spank. How is that well written? Also you pull all the mobs, there is no way to pull *just one*.
That is your problem right there.
CC is not meant to be used for dungeon. Combo fields is the reason where you are not surviving. Blind, confusion, condition removal and dodge, once again, is more of a key mechanic in this game than CC or healing. In WoW or other games on the other hand blind and such doesn't work on bosses.
If you combo fielded correctly, healing will not even need to be managed and the damage from mobs will be much less.
The problem is a lot of players are bringing in what they know from other games into this game. You pretty much got to empty your cup and learn from scratch. It is a different mechanic all together.
have not done CM so no comment there. but mobs can indeed be pulled. sometimes pulling "just one" is impossible, but hey, that's what groupwork is there for
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you need to adjust to the play style of this game. if your group mates do not have induvidual SKILL then you will have a bad time. i do not believe that CM is tank and soank simply by my experience in the game.
you want CC to last longer but that would just make things easier, taking away complexity
Here's my thing with combo fields. I play a necro. I'm going to lay down fields (AoE) naturally to do damage. Then I will shoot into that combo field, naturally. I will drop my AoE (combo field) heal when it's needed, naturally. People running into it for a heal will dps out of it naturally. The system is in place, but along with the skill system, there is room for a lot more. As it stands now it almost feels like a passive effect, or something that's going to naturally happen.
Maybe if triggering combo fields did something active instead of causing a semi-passive debuff. It just seems like the warriors 5 whirl finishers (the class with the most weapon variety in weapon choice) should have different effects. Ability Y should do X in combo field A. As it stands now Ability Z also does X in combo field A, just like ability N,I, and E.
slightly off topic, but you can connect the dots lol.
Just got something to say to the people crying for nerf, saying the dungeons are too hard (funniest thing is some people here are crying about STORY MODE LOLOLOL) or that the trash mobs can 2 shot you, either l2p with teamwork or go play WoW style carebare dungeons.
Also found this in another thread recently :
Things said by arenanet that are happening (with source) thread
I also ran CM as a lvl 50 elementalist for the first time in story mode a few nights ago (My first GW2 dungeon run). My reaction was pretty much the complete opposite of the OP's.
At first I was like WTF is this shit?! The first golem boss must have wiped each of us in the group several times or so. It was very shocking to have a boss in a MMO 2 shot you in a low lvl dungeon(the first boss mind you). The next pull once you enter the mansion is even worse, They just throw too many elite's at you in too small of a confined area to do any sort of kiting. Our group found it much easier to just kite them outside the mansion where there is much more room to move around.
As the run went on , the entire group started to wipe less &less each pull. I think all of us without saying a word to each other kind of figured out we needed to move,Kite CC and pretty much utulize all of our skills. Its hard to break out of that WOW tank and spank mentality that we are all so use to.
I found myself as a elementalist pretty much playing a total support role during the run. I would open up with fire pull all agro and the use all my CC's abiltys (LIGHTNING static CC,ICE CC,Earth CC) kite the mobs in a circle while the rest of the group dps. When they eventually pulled agro off me i would throw out some AOE heling and go back to fire for dps.
I really enjoyed the fast paced, challenging difficulty. To be honest once you L2P your class and break out of the WOW tank & spank mentality the game really shines. Can't wait to try all the other dungeons and I really hope A-Net doesn't cave to all the whiners who want instances nerfed.
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The dungeons are pretty bad. Badly designed and badly programmed. You'd think a bug that causes a final boss to disappear would be fixed very soon, but you'd be wrong.
The bosses are mostly very simple, they just do a lot of damage and have a ton of health. There arnt many bosses that have more than 3 abilities.
Re complaining about difficulty, don't be daft!. An example we ran ac for our first time and we got destroyed, wiping many times etc. the 2nd run we all adjusted our traits, managed marking a lot better and worked out a strategy that worked. We never wiped once. Being able to clear an instance with no wipes after only 2 runs is hardly difficult (and that was without vent)
If you want challenging encounters then you may die a lot on the first go while you learn an encounter- how else could it be?
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Man, I am only going to say this one more time because people read something and just get it in their head they know exactly what the problem is. I DID NOT SAY I WANTED THE ZONE TO BE NERFED. I ALSO DID NOT SAY I WAS DIEING EVERY FIGHT AND HAD NO IDEA WHAT I WAS DOING.
I said that while we were in there the mobs were just tank and spank and had NO strategy to them. As a matter of fact I can easily say the only reason we did as well as we did in there was because I was a kiting machine that was managing my pets and skills like a pro. I have played MMO's for a long time and know what I am doing. I was using our Ele's combo field and I was placing my healing spring on the melee and pets. I was doing my job. Even when doing my job there was nothing "special" about the zone. All the mobs just hit you hard and did the same 2 attacks the entire time. The "champion" mobs were the same as the elites just more HP and hit harder. When you play other games like Tera or TSW and you go into a boss encounter there is that (o crap did you see that moment) that get you all exicited, in GW2 the entire time I was like...how far till the end because this is retarded. I listen to the story, I read the text, and watched the mobs actions. It was boring. Very poor design. The only difference from Dungeons and Open zone dynamic events is that they are in an instances and the mobs hit harder and have more HP. That is not a "good" system.
I dont care if they made the zone a cake walk or damn near impossible, I didn't like the Dungeon. So please stop putting words in my mouth, I do not want the zone easier and I do know how to play my class. I just didn't like the dungeon. The rest of the game is probably some of the best gaming experiences I have had since UO and EQ.
You hit the nail on the head there Korrigan.
A player who opens their arguement with a dismissive 'I have more time online in GW2 than you so any counter-arguement you make is invalid' and then overblows it with an impossible figure.
.... and another poster saying they 'miss strategy'.... hell that translates pretty accurately to 'I miss predictable scripting and repeat same tactic = win' gameplay.
The comment on combo fields is also well made - they make a tremendous difference.
I for one run dungeons with power/toughness/heal accessories and power/crit/condition damage armour and weapons and do just fine. You only need to stack vitality/toughness/power if you lack skill and/or adaptability.
The difference between a PUG lacking in cohesion and synergy and a guild-team who understand that the whole is more than the sum of the parts is very marked in dungeons.
Yes it is a more complex challenge. Yes, you will wipe a lot if you go in wth your 'WoW Raid Head', but things improve significantly once you realise the dungeons in GW2 require a more flexible form of team play.
I have experienced some of the worst and the best dungeon runs in this regard and it is as clear as crystal why the bad was painful, and the good was a triumph.
It will be obvious to anyone else still struggling as long as they stick at it - better yet, get into one of my Guilds dungeon runs and see the difference for yourself.
The game is a new take on things - clinging to the old paradigms isn't going to work.
Stop being such Luddites about it....
My guild runs dungeons twice weekly and I've been on most runs. What has become obvious to me from when we first started doing it until now is how much easier things are now. When I think back to that first AC Howling King run where the graveling event seemed impossible it makes me smile.
Why? Because people have learned to play their professions better. People are understanding and remembering their abilities and using them in the right circumstances. In my view this has got to be the #1 reason why people find dungeons hard. They don't know what to do and they don't know what they can do with their own profession.
As Aerowyn said quite rightly combo fields make a huge difference. Area weakness, area might etc. on a group pull is just an example of how it just got easier by ratcheting up your party's damage. But knowing how to use your abilities is also key. Want some CC? Stick a ranger bear pet on a target, pop a net turret, get a thief to call in his buddies, use cripples and kite the mobs. It's a dynamic combat game so don't expect to just CC a target and forget about it for 30 secs.
Dungeon play is SO different from other games that it really is about learning a whole new style of play and being in a tightly coordinated group that knows their profession. I'm not talking about skill in playing the profession (I am not someone with the reflexes of a 16 year old) but knowing your abilities and thinking about how to apply them to the situation.
In my opinion the dungeon system is far better this way then with the holy trinity.
The downed state also gives you a chance not to die immediately and if played well in a team you can come back on your feet several times aswell.
Not a chance like that in the boring holy trinity system in which you need certain builds to even enter a dungeon and then when one drops all ends because you can't do it anymore (unlike in GW2s design in which I did dungeons with 4 people aswell).
You also don't need hours of searching and are accepted in a group no matter what your profession is.
So yes, it is harder and needs more organization but for that you get people in your team and jump in instead of wasting tons of time on looking for a certain type of tank or healer for between 20 minutes and over a hour, only to get someone to drop out or people to start blaming each other for their own faults.
I had bad groups and I had good to very good groups and the professions didn't play a big role, the teamwork did.
As a elementalist I'm getting targeted a lot by the mobs (well by the people in WvsWvsW aswell actually...) as the first target to be taken down.
For that I have alot of defences and traits up that are helping me and my team in such situations.
When I know a dungeon and how it works I let the people know and we try to go ahead as organized as possible.
This way a run can work like a charm with being defeated only 1 to 2 times in the whole dungeon.
All you need to do is utilize everything you have effectively and situation based while keeping an eye on your team and environment additionaly to the action.
Yes it can be hard but it's possible and it definately works. Most of all it's fun for me cause I get to do much more than being the "healer" out of the 5 that stays in the back waiting for the "tank" to take a certain amount of damage and heal not too much so I won't draw the aggro my way.