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I'm asking the question because we have seen time and time again that games that feature both PVE and PVP rarely do both right.
It seems that whenever a MMORPG tries to do both, it ends up neglecting one or the other, which is unsurprising as the two stand in a somewhat oposite place (one is directly competitive with other players while the other is cooperative).
Thats not to say that cooperative-competitition doesn't exist (for example high level competitition in raiding), but its not the same competition that dominating other players directly ingame is.
Now i enjoy both PVP and PVE, but rarely do I enjoy it in the same game.
Do you think the remedy would be to create separate, more niche games instead of trying to be everything for everyone?
Comments
Yes but you can't deny that PVP takes a back-seat to PVE in WoW, no matter if you like it or not.
PVP is an afterthought in the design of the game, WoW is at heart a PVE game with tacked on PVP features just like EVE is a PVP game with tacked on PVE features.
YES, YES, YES, YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Imagine someone is creating a book, he was what you and your 3 friends what you want in a book and then create a book for you and those friends. Now imagine he do the same thing but asking 10000 guys what book you think will be better. The first one obviously. I am not saying you wont like the second one but the first one will be better.
Niche games is the future, and I am not talking only about niche games only to hardcore comunity, but to the carebear one, to the normal gamers one, to casual ones.....
I'm a unique and beautiful snowflake.
Role based PvE based play for me in the long run.
I don't need PvP polluting my MMORPG... If I want to enjoy that I go to a FPS game that does it well and is actual fun.
The whole game is balanced/designed around PVE.
To do PVP you have to do PVE first (PVP doesn't give progression)
Talents/abilities are PVE centred and the Frost Mage is the single most persuasive argument for it.
Blizz tried to mitigate the problems with dual-specs and the new talent trees but it still worked out the same way it was before, a frostmage in a raid is mostly not useful, unless you need a lot of trash AOE-CC.
Then they tried to mitigate that by designing encounters/ballance with their new mantra "bring the player not the class" so they homogenized most classes.
Every time blizzard does something to PVE ballance it fucks their PVP ballance and vice versa.
etc.
How long have you been playing WoW?
A virtual world can have rules that do not encompass PVP or PVE.
Are there many that offer only one of the two?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
just take PVP out. Most people who really want PVP are just gank clowns. I like the member who said when they wanna PVP they just go to a FPS where it is done right and fun.
PVP is difficult to do fairly in any MMO where there is progression. PVP servers are flat out lame in my opinion and just a constant looking over your shoulder for the guy 50 levels above you gankfesk. I'll pass.
My 12 yr old nephew PVPs in WoW, it's a joke. You can be a pvp guru or a complete n00b and if your team can somehow pull it off, you get the win. Youtube + wowcrendor for a funny take on how silly it can get. Little to no skill is involved in PVP, but, I guess thats kinda how its supposed to be, cant make it even, fair fights, it would make the gankers get ganked.
Happily the PVP crowd is a minority in MMOs
I went with both. I love PvP and like PvE. What I would like to see is more PvP centered around the world instead of becoming a seperate game in instanced BG's/Warzones/Arena etc. Something like L2 did with there world bosses/flagging system.
A full blown criminal system for reds like myself would be nice, give us the risk/reward for being red again like in some of the older games. Hopefully ArcheAge can deliver on this, if they can ever friggin deliver the game to the west.
And what the guy above me said about PvP being a minority is a very stupid comment. Its actually about 50/50. If it came down to choice between the two there would be a lot of people like myself that would of strictly chose PvP. But most PvPers enjoy a little bit of PvE as well which is why we play MMO's instead of MOBA's. And since MOBA's are more popular than MMO's I would go on to assume that PvPers are actually more then PVEers.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
There are a few but usually experimental games with either low production values or major flaws in other areas.
For example DDO had no PVP at all up untill Module 3.
The other part is The world created for it. Themepark tailor fit worlds have a hard time having both unless it's one rule set or another because every square inch is needed for progression. If you create a world that is spread out, like VG for instance, you can have regions and warfronts between factions that PvPers are drawn to and an equal amount of strictly PvE (with flagging) regions both offering the same amount of content progression, OW bosses, dungeons, etc.
In most games PvP has been tacked on to what seems to be PvE centered games. Is hard to host both? Maybe but not impossible if to design the world for it.
i think you need mostly pve with a touch of integrated pvp.
reds, gankers and asshats need to be utilized not segregated. They are, by their very nature, dynamic content.
Wow most certainly doesn't, wow is a raid grinder with tacked on half arsed pvp.
I see what you're saying but if you look at gankers as criminals, PvEers as victims and regular PvPers (using gankers as dynamic content) as police you still have a victim first. Better to put all the criminals in the same space as all the police
I prefer PvE but I like PvP mixed in. It makes things more fun. Then again, I'm also the type that enjoys putting gankers in their place which I tend to have lots of laughs doing in many games.
Straight PvE just eventually gets boring and its fun to have a bit of conflict, though I will say I am completely against Free PvP where its everyman for itself. Its a breeding ground for griefing and absolutely nothing good.
so in a game where there are approximately 25 pver's (which includes the pvp policers/blues) and 1 or so Reds/Gankers, how often do you feel you would be victimized if you had tools to prevent it? Not very often i would imagine. They would have a very difficult time getting close to new players, they would be vastly outnumbered, and hunted. You would know they are out there, they could attack at anytime, but the probababilities would be slim.
and what value would you then put on these types of players if their purpose was nurtured instead of scorned, by allowing them ( with competition among themselfves for who gets to do this) to activate npc content, i.e seiging your castle, invading your mine, blowing up your bridge etc.
it would no longer be the role of victim and greifer. Every advantage would be stacked against the hardcore, which s the way it should be. They would be content providers.
why waste a perfectly useful resource? Everything has its place if used properly.
give me 50 million and ill show you..lol
I'm still waiting for a PvE focused sandbox myself. I love the concept of skill-based games, but every current offering is FFA full loot PvP.
Sorry, but I want to mine / farm / lumberjack / craft / etc. without worrying about some asshat with GM in 'stabby-stabby skill' julienning my liver and taking all my hard-earned stuff for shits and giggles.
You can also get to max level by doing only crafting, its still not Minecraft or crafting-focused.
The question is how does PVP tie into the game? It doesnt.
The PVP is segregated away, its separate, might as well be another game entirely.
I think its why Bloodline Champions and now Forge exist.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innovation
Afaik Voyage Century has just about everything you listed.
Even though I like having open world PVP in games I play, I still voted PVE.
That's because:
1) We need more purely-PVE group based MMOs.
2) Developers apparently have a huge difficulty with balancing the game when they have to address both and make odd decisions that add up to nerfs upon nerfs.
3) I dislike where the PVE+PVP games are going design-wise, turning PVP more and more into mini-games, which I have no interest in.
We may be talking about two seperate things. In my example before responding to you I figured if you had the same amount of OWPvP regions as strictly PvE regions, both featuring a full complement of content, in one gameworld there would be no need for secondary PvP systems that are tacked on after initial development.
Those who want constant PvP while doing PvE can have it while those that want to be left in peace can stay that way. Of course there will be those of us in the middle who like to PvP but don't want to be forced into it 24/7. By creating seperate content for both in the same gameworld there would be an incentive to those PvP part timers to head into dangerous water and "join the fight" by way of PvE exploration. This in turn would create the same PvP dynamic content you were talking about.