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Does every MMO have to have a raid-or-die endgame?

SwampRobSwampRob Halifax, NSPosts: 1,008Member

PvP aside.  

I'm simply tired of every, and I mean EVERY MMO being perfectly content to let players solo to the endagme, and then it's raid-or-die.   That is to say, "We the devs don't care how much you enjoy soloing.   Now that you're at the level cap, group up or wave goodbye to item progression."

This thread isn't intended to be about preferences.   I'm trying to understand why every MMO developer feels it's utterly mandatory that their endgame is made this way.    Maybe it is mandatory and I'm just stubborn?   If it must be this way, someone please explain to me why, and why no other way would ever work?

 

Edited to clarify:

Perhaps I should have said "group up or give up on meaningful progression".

My point is, do all MMOs have to follow the rule of "if you don't group up at endgame, you don't progress in PvE"?   

 

 

 

Comments

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by SwampRob

    PvP aside.  

    I'm simply tired of every, and I mean EVERY MMO being perfectly content to let players solo to the endagme, and then it's raid-or-die.   That is to say, "We the devs don't care how much you enjoy soloing.   Now that you're at the level cap, group up or wave goodbye to item progression."

    This thread isn't intended to be about preferences.   I'm trying to understand why every MMO developer feels it's utterly mandatory that their endgame is made this way.    Maybe it is mandatory and I'm just stubborn?   If it must be this way, someone please explain to me why, and why no other way would ever work?

     

     

     

    not every MMO is raiding for endgame.. many yes but hardly all so not sure what your point is

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon

    Thats why i like sandbox over themepark anyday of the week. Themeparks are nothing more than glorified console rpg games with limited content, social abilities, and end game. Sandboxes offer so much more, yet many hate them due to stereotypes and misconceptions of open world pvp and other bogus things. Yet complain in every themepark thread that the game sucks because there isnt anything to do. I dont get this community.

     

    Oh an not every mmo has these raids ;) SWG though many disliked the NGE, i didnt mind it so bad and played since day one til 6 months before closing. But in that game and 7+ years i never got bored nor did I sit around waiting for content to happen. We amde our own content ;) Older sandbox games with tons of features that kept you busy and active outgun any new age mmo.

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,772Member Uncommon

    if i have mmos A,B,C,D and E and all do the same thing, same progression (lvl 1 to cap), and same endgame approach, why would i have 5 mmos to choose from? I would stay with only 1, the one who made them better and smoother.

    gear grind raiding endgame should never be mandatory. Thats the easy way out for developers and its something to think about specialy if theres a sub.

    image
  • NobleNerdNobleNerd Wolcott, NYPosts: 671Member Uncommon
    Trion for Rift has more than just raiding for content at end game. They have some story driven adventures also for people to get gear and rewards. Also most games have good pvp content at end game. But like in WoW you pay a price to pvp until you get better gear (which is a huge frustration!). Imo Trion has made the biggest attempt, in MMOs I have played, to take out the raid or die mentality. I wish more MMO developers would pay attention to the many players that enjoy the story driven part of what it means to be an RPG otherwise it is just an MMO. 

    image

  • Hell_HammerHell_Hammer BelgradePosts: 75Member
    Originally posted by rojo6934

    if i have mmos A,B,C,D and E and all do the same thing, same progression (lvl 1 to cap), and same endgame approach, why would i have 5 mmos to choose from? I would stay with only 1, the one who made them better and smoother.

    gear grind raiding endgame should never be mandatory. Thats the easy way out for developers and its something to think about specialy if theres a sub.

     

    Come to think of it, what really made me dislike the gear grind was the fact that I was at the same time paying for it. It felt mandatory not only in-game but out of it as well.

    I'm paying for this, I gotta make the most of this month and get as many item improvements as I can! And that makes it feel like a second job, not something that I'm looking for in a game.

    I do admit that there must be better ways to do endgame except gear grind, but I don't think I'd mind gear grinding if I could do it at my own pace, without the pressure of subscription fees expiring.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,655Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SwampRob

    PvP aside.  

    I'm simply tired of every, and I mean EVERY MMO being perfectly content to let players solo to the endagme, and then it's raid-or-die.   That is to say, "We the devs don't care how much you enjoy soloing.   Now that you're at the level cap, group up or wave goodbye to item progression."

    This thread isn't intended to be about preferences.   I'm trying to understand why every MMO developer feels it's utterly mandatory that their endgame is made this way.    Maybe it is mandatory and I'm just stubborn?   If it must be this way, someone please explain to me why, and why no other way would ever work?

    No, and not every MMO does. The raiding endgame is one of the many band-aids to put on the broken level-based system that has been carried over from PnP games. Raiding just shifts the level grind to a gear grind with in each level. It's the result of a greater problem. Fix the other problem and raiding becomes one of many options instead of the most palatable of two objectionable options.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
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  • rungardrungard st. john''s, NFPosts: 1,035Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by SwampRob

    PvP aside.  

    I'm simply tired of every, and I mean EVERY MMO being perfectly content to let players solo to the endagme, and then it's raid-or-die.   That is to say, "We the devs don't care how much you enjoy soloing.   Now that you're at the level cap, group up or wave goodbye to item progression."

    This thread isn't intended to be about preferences.   I'm trying to understand why every MMO developer feels it's utterly mandatory that their endgame is made this way.    Maybe it is mandatory and I'm just stubborn?   If it must be this way, someone please explain to me why, and why no other way would ever work?

    No, and not every MMO does. The raiding endgame is one of the many band-aids to put on the broken level-based system that has been carried over from PnP games. Raiding just shifts the level grind to a gear grind with in each level. It's the result of a greater problem. Fix the other problem and raiding becomes one of many options instead of the most palatable of two objectionable options.

     while i complete agree with you here, you probabally wont like my fix to it, as it involves limited open world pvp. players are the content, its just a matter of making it palatable to most players.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,778Member Uncommon

    The reason raiding endgames are so common is not that game developers have the delusional idea that everyone loves raiding endgames.  It's because the alternative to having a bad endgame is having no endgame at all, which would basically tell many players, "Congratulations, you've beaten the game.  Now you should cancel your subscription and go play something else."  Raiding epics are a carrot on a stick that get quite a few players to keep their subscription active even after they rationally ought to quit.

    The basic idea of an endgame is that it needs to be something that takes minimal development time to implement, but keeps players busy for a long time.  Raids fit that perfectly, and many of the common raid gameplay decisions are focused on making it take longer to play through raid content.  That's why a bunch of people have to go on a raid, but only a few get loot, so that everyone has to repeat it a bunch of times.  It's also the reason for raid lockouts.

  • MyriaMyria Lowell, MAPosts: 570Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SwampRob

    I'm simply tired of every, and I mean EVERY MMO being perfectly content to let players solo to the endagme, and then it's raid-or-die.   That is to say, "We the devs don't care how much you enjoy soloing.   Now that you're at the level cap, group up or wave goodbye to item progression."

    First,  if you honestly think "EVERY" MMO is raid-based then you haven't played very many.

    Second, define "raid-or-die".

    Third, how does it not make sense in a multiplayer game to have the best content be, well, multiplayer?

    I really don't get the whole whining about raiding thing, it just makes no sense to me. In WoW or Rift you don't *have* to raid, in point of fact a lot of people don't and are perfectly content. Nor does not raiding mean you have nothing to do and no gear progression.

    I never stepped in a raid for the entirety of BC and had a fantastic time -- part of why I don't play WoW now is how far it has gotten from what BC was -- and had a near continuous progression path that ended the expac within a few percentage points of most raiders of the same class. I didn't have to have the best-of-the-best, I was happy with what I was doing and the progression available to me.

    In the old days raid-or-die was a PvP thing, but now in most games you can aquire good PvP gear (in many cases, sadly, even BiS PvE gear) from PvP, so the phrase really doesn't have much meaning. Raid-or-envy, I suppose, but the notion that somehow all games are raid-centric and you have to raid or gtfo is a load.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Games I've played that aren't raid or die.

    Eve
    Daoc
    Planetside
    City of heroes
    Wow before they hired all them EQ guys
    Guild wars
    Guild wars 2
    Perpetuum
    Darkfall

    Some of those are themepark so its not a sandbox vs themepark thing

    There are also games with no raids, that I haven't included them as they have dungeon grinding endgame instead, which is essentialy the same thing.
  • SwampRobSwampRob Halifax, NSPosts: 1,008Member
    Originally posted by Myria
    Originally posted by SwampRob

    I'm simply tired of every, and I mean EVERY MMO being perfectly content to let players solo to the endagme, and then it's raid-or-die.   That is to say, "We the devs don't care how much you enjoy soloing.   Now that you're at the level cap, group up or wave goodbye to item progression."

    First,  if you honestly think "EVERY" MMO is raid-based then you haven't played very many.

    Second, define "raid-or-die".

    Third, how does it not make sense in a multiplayer game to have the best content be, well, multiplayer?

    I really don't get the whole whining about raiding thing, it just makes no sense to me. In WoW or Rift you don't *have* to raid, in point of fact a lot of people don't and are perfectly content. Nor does not raiding mean you have nothing to do and no gear progression.

    Perhaps I should have said "group up or give up on meaningful progression".

    Once the leveling stops, acquiring better gear is the only means of meaningful progression in almost any MMO.    I recognized the logic in having multiplayer content in a multiplayer game.

    My point is, do all MMOs have to follow the rule of "don't group up at endgame, don't progress in PvE"?    Please show me some MMOs that allow you to acquire BIS gear without forcing you to group to do so.

  • PilnkplonkPilnkplonk zagrebPosts: 1,532Member
    The OP has obviously been living under a rock for the past couple of years. The forums are awash with "fanbois" and "haters" duking it out over GW2's endgame which does not feature anything resemblng raids.
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SwampRob

    PvP aside.  

    I'm simply tired of every, and I mean EVERY MMO being perfectly content to let players solo to the endagme, and then it's raid-or-die.   That is to say, "We the devs don't care how much you enjoy soloing.   Now that you're at the level cap, group up or wave goodbye to item progression."

    This thread isn't intended to be about preferences.   I'm trying to understand why every MMO developer feels it's utterly mandatory that their endgame is made this way.    Maybe it is mandatory and I'm just stubborn?   If it must be this way, someone please explain to me why, and why no other way would ever work?

     

    Edited to clarify:

    Perhaps I should have said "group up or give up on meaningful progression".

    My point is, do all MMOs have to follow the rule of "if you don't group up at endgame, you don't progress in PvE"?   

     

     

     

    this is my theory.

    take a game like GW2.

    it has a slow grindy feel to leveling ,especially with the new limits in place.

    You simply CAN NOT have a MMO with long, featture restricitve ,grindy,  leveling mechanics

    while at the same time OFFERING NOTING DIFFERENT ABOUT WHAT PLAYERS DO AT ENDGAME AS THEY DID FOR THE LEVEL GRIND.

    this quickly bores people because everything seem like "Been There, Done That for 79 levels..."

    proper Endgame in this situation is giving players something NEW to look forward to. Not just reskin of events and hearts. This is why Endgame Raiding been a success over the years, because it gives players something NEW to experience that they never could while doing their level grind.

     

    Remove the Level grind, and this mindset wouldnt be the case anymore.

    image

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,989Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SwampRob
    Originally posted by Myria
    Originally posted by SwampRob

    I'm simply tired of every, and I mean EVERY MMO being perfectly content to let players solo to the endagme, and then it's raid-or-die.   That is to say, "We the devs don't care how much you enjoy soloing.   Now that you're at the level cap, group up or wave goodbye to item progression."

    First,  if you honestly think "EVERY" MMO is raid-based then you haven't played very many.

    Second, define "raid-or-die".

    Third, how does it not make sense in a multiplayer game to have the best content be, well, multiplayer?

    I really don't get the whole whining about raiding thing, it just makes no sense to me. In WoW or Rift you don't *have* to raid, in point of fact a lot of people don't and are perfectly content. Nor does not raiding mean you have nothing to do and no gear progression.

    Perhaps I should have said "group up or give up on meaningful progression".

    Once the leveling stops, acquiring better gear is the only means of meaningful progression in almost any MMO.    I recognized the logic in having multiplayer content in a multiplayer game.

    My point is, do all MMOs have to follow the rule of "don't group up at endgame, don't progress in PvE"?    Please show me some MMOs that allow you to acquire BIS gear without forcing you to group to do so.

    What did you plan to do with that great gear once you got it.  Most games provide you new gear to either help you succeed in later raid centric content, or it is used to advance your power in PVP.

    I guess you might be saying you want to get the great new gear to do new solo content, but in a themepark that form of advancement has to wait for expasions where they can add new lands/levels to progress your character.

    Just wondering what exactly you think you want them to give you.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
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  • Lethargic_SynapseLethargic_Synapse Kissimmee, FLPosts: 67Member
    Originally posted by SwampRob
    Originally posted by Myria
    Originally posted by SwampRob

    I'm simply tired of every, and I mean EVERY MMO being perfectly content to let players solo to the endagme, and then it's raid-or-die.   That is to say, "We the devs don't care how much you enjoy soloing.   Now that you're at the level cap, group up or wave goodbye to item progression."

    First,  if you honestly think "EVERY" MMO is raid-based then you haven't played very many.

    Second, define "raid-or-die".

    Third, how does it not make sense in a multiplayer game to have the best content be, well, multiplayer?

    I really don't get the whole whining about raiding thing, it just makes no sense to me. In WoW or Rift you don't *have* to raid, in point of fact a lot of people don't and are perfectly content. Nor does not raiding mean you have nothing to do and no gear progression.

    Perhaps I should have said "group up or give up on meaningful progression".

    Once the leveling stops, acquiring better gear is the only means of meaningful progression in almost any MMO.    I recognized the logic in having multiplayer content in a multiplayer game.

    My point is, do all MMOs have to follow the rule of "don't group up at endgame, don't progress in PvE"?    Please show me some MMOs that allow you to acquire BIS gear without forcing you to group to do so.

    I'm not certain this is the case, but are you asking for a solo path to the same gear as raids?  That just wouldn't be fair to the raiding community, to be honest.  Raids take coordination.  There's also always crafting, which is quite time-consuming...  Wait til endgame to start and make some BoP gear.  

     

    I'm not trying to be a jerk when I say this, but why play MMORPGs if you just want to solo forever?  That seems kind of counter-productive.  I'd also find it quite boring after awhile, but everyone has different tastes.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Plink:

    Gw2 doesn't have raids in the wow sense

    It does have raids in the daoc / coh sense though, but their not "or die" in those 3 games
  • DarkmothDarkmoth Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 174Member
    Originally posted by SwampRob

    Perhaps I should have said "group up or give up on meaningful progression".

    Once the leveling stops, acquiring better gear is the only means of meaningful progression in almost any MMO.    I recognized the logic in having multiplayer content in a multiplayer game.

    My point is, do all MMOs have to follow the rule of "don't group up at endgame, don't progress in PvE"?    Please show me some MMOs that allow you to acquire BIS gear without forcing you to group to do so.

    Pretty sure you can get BIS gear solo in Guild Wars I.

  • JimmyYOJimmyYO Columbus, OHPosts: 520Member

    Every MMO has to have a sizable endgame if it doesn't want to get trampled by WoW. The proof is in the last decade, people are already abandoning GW2 in droves just to "prepare" for MoP to come out.

    It doesn't HAVE to be raiding but it has to be endgame thats for certain.

  • syntax42syntax42 Columbus, OHPosts: 1,305Member Uncommon

    I think this is another case of players and developers taking things too far.  Players who want to solo and see everything in the game should not be playing a multiplayer game at all.  Developers expect people to team up and perform activities, but they took things too far when raids required the coordination of many people who had only soloed their way up to that point.

     

    The best MMOs I have played gradually introduce you to grouping without forcing it upon you.  City of Heroes could be one good example.  You could solo your way to the level cap if you wanted to.  Afterwards, progression could be earned through soloing, or you could earn it slightly faster through grouping with a few other people.  I'm referring to currencies and enhancements, for those familiar with the game.  Eventually, progression required a group with the Incarnate system, though I remember the developers' intent to allow much slower solo progression if desired.

     

    Guild Wars 2 seems like it might be the same.  I haven't reached 80 yet, but it seems like group content is encouraged and optional at the same time.  They may introduce some content that requires grouping to advance later, or make a system that also allows soloing to advance along the same lines.

  • Lethargic_SynapseLethargic_Synapse Kissimmee, FLPosts: 67Member
    Originally posted by syntax42

    I think this is another case of players and developers taking things too far.  Players who want to solo and see everything in the game should not be playing a multiplayer game at all.  Developers expect people to team up and perform activities, but they took things too far when raids required the coordination of many people who had only soloed their way up to that point.

    This is a great point.  This is one reason I consider EQ and FFXI two of the greatest MMO games-you basically HAD to start grouping after level 10 or so.  Many people don't like that, but in my opinion MMORPGs are for multiplayer and working together, not getting gear on your own to show off to people that play solo as well.  

     

    Once again, I'm very much into forced grouping games, so I'm definitely not the norm.  I just fondly remember the old days of the father MMOs.

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