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Originally posted by Novusod It is NOT the player that asked for tredmill based progression on MMOs. The expectation of a tredmil gear grind comes from a WoW mentality. There was post made here many years ago about WoW being more grindy than any of the old school MMOs because of the tredmil that never ends. It really wasn't taken seriously at the time that this would be the end of MMOs as we know it. Somehow, games changed from being a journey as the means to its own end to the game doesn't start until endgame when you begin the gear grind tredmil. If people are ever going to see a change in the way MMOs are made and played they are going to have to reject themeparks like guild wars 2 and keep waiting for that sandbox.
I agree with this completely. I do not want to turn this into another Themepark Vs Sandbox debate but much of what made MMO's of the pre-WoW era a success is now missing from the current breed. 90% of modern MMO player have been raised on a diet of themeparks and have never experienced anything else; hell, most of them have no idea what a good MMO community is like. They have never experienced player interdependency, player built settlements, non-combat classes, crafting that actually mattered, true exploration in a world that changed dependent on player actions, PvP that actually had a point other than getting enough points for a new bloody helmet etc. Past games were far from perfect but a lot of that glue that bound the community together has been lost completely, we need to get it back.
Originally posted by Ausare I have a question...what is this magical sandbox content that does not involve pvp?
Crafting, building, creating rather than destroying, non-combat classes, politics etc.
Originally posted by Ausare Sounds boring.
What is more boring than doing the exact same thing hour after hour to grind gear?
I am mainly a pvppve player but i take a role playing approach to every game i play and maybe that's why i don't need the best gear and shit to have fun.I like to relate to my character,i explore,do quest and actually read the text every time.
I think if people would take the same approach as i when it comes to mmorpgs they would last longer.
i don't need the carrot,i got my character.
Originally posted by Ausare Crafting sounds the same as raiding in that you grind mats to make that next item. Building. What are you building? Whst is its point? Non combat...so basically a graphical chat room...i have real bars for that. Politics...npc politics? Remember non pvp.
You are showing that you have never played a sandbox as you have absolutely no clue about them. Just on the points you mentioned and I will use Pre CU / NGE SWG as an example:
Crafting produced the best items in the game, better than anything that dropped as loot providing the crafter was a good one. Items were not cookie cutter and all the same as they are in themepark games. The best weapons in SWG required the best quality mats and a high level of skill on the part of the crafter. Gathering the mats was done by an automated harvester if you had the ability to use them. Some of these had to be put in very dangerous locations as this is where the mats were located. This saw crafters hiring guards to escort them while they collected from the harvesters.
Building: Cities and settlements including player owned shops, amenities, spaceport etc. Architect was a character class in SWG. Other non combat classes were entertainer, medic etc. and before you say 'boring' you would be amazed just how many people enjoyed playing these classes. The cantinas in the cities would be full to overflowing some nights and you would be surprised how many friends you could make and deals you could strike while waiting for a medic to treat your wounds in the med centre.
Sandboxes require more commitment from the player than themeparks do, they do not hold your hand and guide you down a linear path. They give you the world and the tools to live in that world and then leave you to it.
Originally posted by Anthara This crap of blaming players for games failing its just hilarious. And the fanboys who believe in those arguments are even more ridiculous. This guys make games, are "experts" doing so... sell milions of copys and then can't retain players. Obviously its our fault -.- The degree of amatourism and lack of respect for players blow away all my imagination. Maybe when "you" guys reach my age you start to be in the people's side instead of going blind with all the fanboyism and understand that.. if games are rushed into endgame in one month ITS BECAUSE THE GAME MAKE IT POSSIBLE. All is handed to you, fast and easy. God bless EVE and all its fails! o7
wouldn't have put it quite that way, but I agree with your sentiment. The OP was superficial and uninteresting.
Originally posted by Indol 1 million percent agree with this. People are their own worst enemies. It seems like many are more motivated by their ego and greed rather than just playing a game for fun's sake. I think this is largely a result of societies competitive attitude bleeding over to wherever it can, distorting peoples perceptions.
I concur 100# with you and the Reddit poster.
I for one am happy as hell that there is a new, fresh and exciting MMO that takes some good old fashion grinding. Why you ask? Because it is fun and I dont need anyone else other then me, I am not beholden to any raid setting or elitist pricks. I can play GW2 my way, progress at my rate, and still at the end of the day have a metric butt load of endgame activities to pursue.
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Playing: GW2Waiting on: TESONext Flop: Planetside 2Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Originally posted by Ausare Pve only sandbox is a graphical chat room. Most players as it stands now do nit want forced or open world pvp. I do not see these games beating themeparks with the current ideas for the mainstream.
What do you think D&D was for all those years? It was just people sitting around a table talking to each other about a fantasy world they all enjoyed and were exploring together. It certainly was not about a the loot carrot or this made up term called progression. The fun was in the slow journey to the destination.
I've read the OP. I looked over some of the posts here. I don't think i agree with the poster IN the OP, (since the OP was just bringing us this post over from another source). I cannot agree with the fact that the players are ruining the genre...though I might have agreed years ago. I think that the OP countered his own point with the games he listed. I'll try to explain.
All games have a design structure that governs how the flow of the game is supposed to be for a player. The reason we love Modern Warfare and not MMO PvP is because of the flow. Same with why we love doing nothing on Skyrim versus doing nothing on WoW. Those games have a different flow. MMO gaming is desinged to be extremely gated. If you literally compare the content, (NPC's, quests, crafting, side quests, ect.) of Skyrim to WoW...you'd notice that they are pretty similar. But to enjoy that content in WoW you'd have to spend years playing it. The content is fed to us from a smaller spoon. Skyrim has grand and epic things happen, and some of them aren't even scripted. I fast travelled to a mine to get some ore and had to fight off two dragons, (whom were actually battling each other till I got there), across two mountains and spanning a time of 15 minutes. That was a regular moment in Skyrim. In an MMO that same encounter would require me to grind to endgame and be geared out and have a large group with me. And it would be scripted. I was harvesting a bloody node, for all intents and purposes, and had what, in most MMO's, would have been a major boss battle. In 15 minutes. The same battle would have taken an hour in MMO terms.
That doesn't even include flavor. Flavor, like little sprinkels of awesome cast across dull cake. Harvesting a material in an MMO is just me running around mindlessly. There are rarely ever extra things in that. Some mobs to kill at most. I was grabbing some berries in skyrim and say a house in the distance. That house wasn't in any quest. It was just a flavor point. It belonged to some old alchemist, he made a garden there. Had a diary in his bedroom. Told about his recent experiences. You could tell that they really LIVED that guy for a moment when they made the game. His whole area had a feeling about it, serene and nice. It had flavor. It was interesting, and it served NO purpose.
Its not that a player enjoys something in one game and hates it in another because we're stupid. Some games just DO things better. The design structure of the game is better, and better supports those things. MMO's are money grabs by the market. They are the Farmville of rpg gaming. Novel, sorta fun, but mostly giant time gates backed by an entry fee. No matter how good they are...they always have much larger gates than single player games. Recall my mention of Modern Warfare? Players like pointless PvP in that because its faster. 5 minutes, maybe 10. Action is geared so fast is makes your head spin. Because its so short per match...you can come and go fast if you wanna. You aren't shooting for some crazy goal..yeah they have progression but its a backseat reward. The real reward is that one moment...the crazy knife throw that kills someone across a map or the predator missle that drops 5 guys. That moment where you are superman. You ARE the condition for victory and you feel it. MMO games can't have that...they are RPGs. Games built around stats, and playing them is a game of playing those values. You are a small part of a big puzzle and there is a time gate in place to make sure you have to keep playing for months before you can make those values better so your side can win. Even with starter gear in MW3 you can be a superman. A level 1 player is not one shotting a level 80 in any MMO.
It is not the player...it IS the game. The genre does not know how to exist. It has yet to learn how best to provide content to players who consume it so fast. Games like minecraft know it....Bethesda knows it. You give them a game, you fill it more full that you ever thought you could. Then you give them the power to make a game their own. to make their own content. To make the world itself create new content. But what you do NOT do...what you cannot do...is gate the content. You cannot slow the player...let the player run wild. What MMO gaming NEEDS is not more content. Not nicer players. It needs revision. It needs to have games that create their own content and tools for players to create content too. When you have millions of players in your world...200 people just can't make content large enough or well enough. Stop thinking players as mice in your maze and think of them as tools at your disposal. Let them shape the game into what they want. And give them a world that can shape itself as well, to amaze them. The genre suffers because the worlds we play in are stagnant, set in stone. Nothing really changes...and we have to play in them for years. An ever changing world, now that would be something. I'd pay a sub for that.
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Originally posted by Novusod Originally posted by Ausare Pve only sandbox is a graphical chat room. Most players as it stands now do nit want forced or open world pvp. I do not see these games beating themeparks with the current ideas for the mainstream.
The original D&D idea of having people sitting around talking is out of date. How many do that any more? How many are playing progression games?
The fun is the progression here ... at least for a lot of players.