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Turbine threatens to ban players for pursuing refunds of their new expansion

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  • ScribbleLay1ScribbleLay1 Mt Pleasant, SCPosts: 177Member
    If anyone wants to trade their lifetime sub for a lifetime sub of Star Trek Online, I am more than willing to jump on it.
  • AcidonAcidon Salem, ORPosts: 797Member
    Originally posted by Rednecksith

    BBB is pretty much useless. Contact (or threaten to do so) the FTC instead. They're much more up with the times, and are actually in a position to do something effective.

    Or just do a chargeback, eat the ban and tell Turbine to go fornicate themselves with a rusty iron stick.

    Exterminate!  Exterminate!  Exterminate!

     

    Sorry, just like your avatar..  Moving on..

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  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member

    From what I quickly read through it doesn't seem it is an issue of them giving a refund.

     

    The issue is that you already applied the key and got the special items on your characters and are now asking for a refund (albeit for a diffrent part of the expansion). They are saying they can't give you a refund because you already got those digital items and it seems that is a long standing policy.

     

    Maybe I'm reading it wrond but it sounds like if you hadn't already received some of the items from the expansion that they would give a refund.

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

    From what I quickly read through it doesn't seem it is an issue of them giving a refund.

     

    The issue is that you already applied the key and got the special items on your characters and are now asking for a refund (albeit for a diffrent part of the expansion). They are saying they can't give you a refund because you already got those digital items and it seems that is a long standing policy.

     

    Maybe I'm reading it wrond but it sounds like if you hadn't already received some of the items from the expansion that they would give a refund.

    Thing is that you cannot buy expansion without those items.  So it is just saying "no refunds at all" in other words.

     

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    Originally posted by fenistil
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

    From what I quickly read through it doesn't seem it is an issue of them giving a refund.

     

    The issue is that you already applied the key and got the special items on your characters and are now asking for a refund (albeit for a diffrent part of the expansion). They are saying they can't give you a refund because you already got those digital items and it seems that is a long standing policy.

     

    Maybe I'm reading it wrond but it sounds like if you hadn't already received some of the items from the expansion that they would give a refund.

    Thing is that you cannot buy expansion without those items.  So it is just saying "no refunds at all" in other words.

     

    When you buy it you have to apply the code to the account right? It sounds like up until the point you apply the code you may be able to get a refund.

     

    I get that information was incorrect and/or changed so I can see where people may want a refund. I can also see where Turbine could see it as the person applied the code and has been using those items that they got with the pack but now want money back but they've already gained from the special items (I have no idea what these items are so maybe not). That is a tricky spot.

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,926Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

    When you buy it you have to apply the code to the account right? It sounds like up until the point you apply the code you may be able to get a refund.

     

    I get that information was incorrect and/or changed so I can see where people may want a refund. I can also see where Turbine could see it as the person applied the code and has been using those items that they got with the pack but now want money back but they've already gained from the special items (I have no idea what these items are so maybe not). That is a tricky spot.

    So, you prepurchase the expansion and because they like to throw an extra for you to use early, you can't cancel before teh actual expansion comes out?

     

    They like to claim it's a technical limitation.  They also use this excuse as to why you can't prepurchase expansions for points.

     

    They are fully capable of both, but it's in their best interest to claim limitations and try to screw their customers.

     

    Turbine is a seriously low class organization these days.  They are so desperate for cash and have no concerns for customer satisfaction or their reputation. 

     

    Companies like Blizzard and ANet don't give their customers problems.  You can get a full refund within 30 days of receiving the full product.  No questions asked.  No hassle.  They value you as a future customer.

     

     

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

    When you buy it you have to apply the code to the account right? It sounds like up until the point you apply the code you may be able to get a refund.

     

    I get that information was incorrect and/or changed so I can see where people may want a refund. I can also see where Turbine could see it as the person applied the code and has been using those items that they got with the pack but now want money back but they've already gained from the special items (I have no idea what these items are so maybe not). That is a tricky spot.

    So, you prepurchase the expansion and because they like to throw an extra for you to use early, you can't cancel before teh actual expansion comes out?

     

    They like to claim it's a technical limitation.  They also use this excuse as to why you can't prepurchase expansions for points.

     

    They are fully capable of both, but it's in their best interest to claim limitations and try to screw their customers.

     

    Turbine is a seriously low class organization these days.  They are so desperate for cash and have no concerns for customer satisfaction or their reputation. 

     

    Companies like Blizzard and ANet don't give their customers problems.  You can get a full refund within 30 days of receiving the full product.  No questions asked.  No hassle.  They value you as a future customer.

     

     

    With GW2, if you get rid of the main game then you lose everything. If they end up doing a GW2 expansion with special in-game items that you get right away and can use to benefit yourself and then allow for a refund after you've gotten and possibly used the items then there would be more a point there.

     

    I don't think most grocery stores would give you a refund on a box of cookies that you opened and ate 5 of first, but maybe they would.

     

    I'm simply approaching the issue from both directions. I can see where a player would want and expect a refund and I can see where the company wouldn't see it as correct because the person could have already been benefiting off of the items and the return it all and have gotten a benefit for free. Like I said I don't know what items you get with it so if it was something as simple as a horse that could be taken away then that wouldn't be the case at all.

  • UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon

    This the first time I think I've ever agreed with the a refund complaint for an MMO. 

    Print the cashed webpage that lists the instance as a feature of the expansion; showing that it was listed even after you made the pre-purchase and then go to your bank and tell them that you want to charge it back because the developer isn't offering the product that they said they were when you made the purchase.

    I would then go to as many gaming sites as I could find with all appropriate evidence and email the writters for those sites asking them to run a story on this. 

    This is the absolute definition of bait and switch if you made the purchase while the feature was listed as something you were to recieve with the money you paid.  Turnbine has no right to even threaten bans for people wanting refunds because they aren't getting the product they said they would get. 

  • GrumpyMel2GrumpyMel2 Catskills, NYPosts: 1,832Member
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

    When you buy it you have to apply the code to the account right? It sounds like up until the point you apply the code you may be able to get a refund.

     

    I get that information was incorrect and/or changed so I can see where people may want a refund. I can also see where Turbine could see it as the person applied the code and has been using those items that they got with the pack but now want money back but they've already gained from the special items (I have no idea what these items are so maybe not). That is a tricky spot.

    So, you prepurchase the expansion and because they like to throw an extra for you to use early, you can't cancel before teh actual expansion comes out?

     

    They like to claim it's a technical limitation.  They also use this excuse as to why you can't prepurchase expansions for points.

     

    They are fully capable of both, but it's in their best interest to claim limitations and try to screw their customers.

     

    Turbine is a seriously low class organization these days.  They are so desperate for cash and have no concerns for customer satisfaction or their reputation. 

     

    Companies like Blizzard and ANet don't give their customers problems.  You can get a full refund within 30 days of receiving the full product.  No questions asked.  No hassle.  They value you as a future customer.

     

     

    With GW2, if you get rid of the main game then you lose everything. If they end up doing a GW2 expansion with special in-game items that you get right away and can use to benefit yourself and then allow for a refund after you've gotten and possibly used the items then there would be more a point there.

     

    I don't think most grocery stores would give you a refund on a box of cookies that you opened and ate 5 of first, but maybe they would.

     

    I'm simply approaching the issue from both directions. I can see where a player would want and expect a refund and I can see where the company wouldn't see it as correct because the person could have already been benefiting off of the items and the return it all and have gotten a benefit for free. Like I said I don't know what items you get with it so if it was something as simple as a horse that could be taken away then that wouldn't be the case at all.

    If a Grocery Store advertised to give you a box of cookies and a piece of cake with every ham purchased... and they didn't give you the cake. They would likely give you a refund without any hassle and let you keep the whole box of cookies for free to make up for the inconvenience. That's the way companies who actualy value thier customers behave.

    Advertising that you are including something as part of a purchase and then refusing to either deliver the promised item or refund the sale isn't only bad business, it's actualy illegal. What Turbine did would actualy justify an FTC (Federal Trade Commission) complaint. They are lucky they haven't gotten one....and I'm lucky I stopped playing a long time ago. Sad though...once upon a time Turbine was a pretty decent company.

  • TorlukTorluk EdinburghPosts: 162Member

    I think we can all understand why Turbine didn't want to give refunds SnarlingWolf, but that doesn't change the fact that this all resulted from the inaccurate information Turbine directly supplied to their customers.  They made the mistake therefore the burden was all on them whether it was an inconvenience or not.

  • UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

    When you buy it you have to apply the code to the account right? It sounds like up until the point you apply the code you may be able to get a refund.

     

    I get that information was incorrect and/or changed so I can see where people may want a refund. I can also see where Turbine could see it as the person applied the code and has been using those items that they got with the pack but now want money back but they've already gained from the special items (I have no idea what these items are so maybe not). That is a tricky spot.

    So, you prepurchase the expansion and because they like to throw an extra for you to use early, you can't cancel before teh actual expansion comes out?

     

    They like to claim it's a technical limitation.  They also use this excuse as to why you can't prepurchase expansions for points.

     

    They are fully capable of both, but it's in their best interest to claim limitations and try to screw their customers.

     

    Turbine is a seriously low class organization these days.  They are so desperate for cash and have no concerns for customer satisfaction or their reputation. 

     

    Companies like Blizzard and ANet don't give their customers problems.  You can get a full refund within 30 days of receiving the full product.  No questions asked.  No hassle.  They value you as a future customer.

     

     

    With GW2, if you get rid of the main game then you lose everything. If they end up doing a GW2 expansion with special in-game items that you get right away and can use to benefit yourself and then allow for a refund after you've gotten and possibly used the items then there would be more a point there.

     

    I don't think most grocery stores would give you a refund on a box of cookies that you opened and ate 5 of first, but maybe they would.

     

    I'm simply approaching the issue from both directions. I can see where a player would want and expect a refund and I can see where the company wouldn't see it as correct because the person could have already been benefiting off of the items and the return it all and have gotten a benefit for free. Like I said I don't know what items you get with it so if it was something as simple as a horse that could be taken away then that wouldn't be the case at all.

    If a Grocery Store advertised to give you a box of cookies and a piece of cake with every ham purchased... and they didn't give you the cake. They would likely give you a refund without any hassle and let you keep the whole box of cookies for free to make up for the inconvenience. That's the way companies who actualy value thier customers behave.

    Advertising that you are including something as part of a purchase and then refusing to either deliver the promised item or refund the sale isn't only bad business, it's actualy illegal. What Turbine did would actualy justify an FTC (Federal Trade Commission) complaint. They are lucky they haven't gotten one....and I'm lucky I stopped playing a long time ago. Sad though...once upon a time Turbine was a pretty decent company.

     Actually most grocery stores will give you a refund if you open a box of cookies and eat 5, some won't ask any questions, some may want a valid reason.

    Hell, I had to return a thing of coffee to the store after I opened it, and made a few pots of coffee with it.  After a few days the coffee went stale, even though I kept it refrigerated like you're supposed to.  It shouldn't go stale after a few days, and the store gave me no problems with returning an opend and used can of coffee. 

    The fact that the product that was paid for didn't come with everything they said it would should be all that is required for turbine to give a refund.  It's not like people are asking for a refund because they didn't like it, and most people wouldn't realize something was missing untill after they've applied the code and started playing. 

    If Blizzard listed a feature for MoP, I would have no idea that that feature wasn't in the expansion untill after I've started playing it and realized that it wasn't actually available to me. 

    Turbine should have informed people before hand that they had to remove a feature of the expansion and gave them a period of time to request a refund, or offered to compensate them with some of whatever currency they use for the MT shop.  Shame on them for simply removing it and not saying anything to anyone, and then threatening bans because people want the money back because they didn't get everything they thought they were paying for.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon
    Turbine has been pulling sleazy shenanigans and doing marketing word games for a long time now.  This is the major reason I no longer play any of their games.
  • TorlukTorluk EdinburghPosts: 162Member
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Shame on them for simply removing it and not saying anything to anyone, and then threatening bans because people want the money back because they didn't get everything they thought they were paying for.

    If I remember correctly, the situation occurred slightly differently from that.  Turbine basically copied and pasted their format from the advertisement for the RoI expansion and updated it for RoR.  Then a few days later they came out and said they had made a mistake and never intended to leave in the part where it said the players who bought the expansion would recieve the instances for free.  So the people who had bought the expansion before the second announcement, quite rightly, kicked up a real fuss about it.

  • Skooma2Skooma2 Glenview, ILPosts: 694Member Uncommon

    Initially, allow me to state that I have not read every one of the previous posts.  So, if this is a rehash of something that was discussed in the previous 100+ replies, ignore it.

     

    I read the response from Turbine, and they are making what amounts to a technical legal argument.  They assert that the purchase at issue was made AFTER they withdrew the instances from inclusion in RoR and that you enjoyed the benefits of the purchase in the interim.   If you purchased after they withdrew the instances then you have no case (and which may account for their threat of sanctions up to possibly banning.)

    Hedonismbot: Your latest performance was as delectable as dipping my bottom over and over into a bath of the silkiest oils and creams.

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,926Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torluk
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Shame on them for simply removing it and not saying anything to anyone, and then threatening bans because people want the money back because they didn't get everything they thought they were paying for.

    If I remember correctly, the situation occurred slightly differently from that.  Turbine basically copied and pasted their format from the advertisement for the RoI expansion and updated it for RoR.  Then a few days later they came out and said they had made a mistake and never intended to leave in the part where it said the players who bought the expansion would recieve the instances for free.  So the people who had bought the expansion before the second announcement, quite rightly, kicked up a real fuss about it.

    Not quite. 

     

    They did change the wording on the FAQ but didn't tell anyone about it.  When people saw the change and wanted a refund, they basically said that the erroneous FAQ was not legally binding and tough luck on getting a refund.  they then blamed the erroneous FAQ on a copy/paste error.  After that they decided to honor the original FAQ rather than give ANY refunds.

  • ScribbleLay1ScribbleLay1 Mt Pleasant, SCPosts: 177Member
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

    When you buy it you have to apply the code to the account right? It sounds like up until the point you apply the code you may be able to get a refund.

     

    I get that information was incorrect and/or changed so I can see where people may want a refund. I can also see where Turbine could see it as the person applied the code and has been using those items that they got with the pack but now want money back but they've already gained from the special items (I have no idea what these items are so maybe not). That is a tricky spot.

    So, you prepurchase the expansion and because they like to throw an extra for you to use early, you can't cancel before teh actual expansion comes out?

     

    They like to claim it's a technical limitation.  They also use this excuse as to why you can't prepurchase expansions for points.

     

    They are fully capable of both, but it's in their best interest to claim limitations and try to screw their customers.

     

    Turbine is a seriously low class organization these days.  They are so desperate for cash and have no concerns for customer satisfaction or their reputation. 

     

    Companies like Blizzard and ANet don't give their customers problems.  You can get a full refund within 30 days of receiving the full product.  No questions asked.  No hassle.  They value you as a future customer.

     

     

    With GW2, if you get rid of the main game then you lose everything. If they end up doing a GW2 expansion with special in-game items that you get right away and can use to benefit yourself and then allow for a refund after you've gotten and possibly used the items then there would be more a point there.

     

    I don't think most grocery stores would give you a refund on a box of cookies that you opened and ate 5 of first, but maybe they would.

     

    I'm simply approaching the issue from both directions. I can see where a player would want and expect a refund and I can see where the company wouldn't see it as correct because the person could have already been benefiting off of the items and the return it all and have gotten a benefit for free. Like I said I don't know what items you get with it so if it was something as simple as a horse that could be taken away then that wouldn't be the case at all.

    Sorry but I have for a fact returned things to a Grocery Store after useing more than 5 things from a pack.  Maybe it is just a South Carolina thing, but I saw people return half a watermellon after it sat in the trunk of their car in temps over 105 deg. with no questions asked.

  • TorlukTorluk EdinburghPosts: 162Member

    Good to know, hadn't realised they changed it without making an announcement.

    Sorry Uhwop, I remember incorrectly.

  • DragonantisDragonantis DublinPosts: 974Member

    They really need to start

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,452Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ScribbleLay1
     

    Sorry but I have for a fact returned things to a Grocery Store after useing more than 5 things from a pack.  Maybe it is just a South Carolina thing, but I saw people return half a watermellon after it sat in the trunk of their car in temps over 105 deg. with no questions asked.

    um, yeah, that's probably a South Carolina thing. Or at least something that store was willing to do. I dont' know of any place in the North East that would allow that.

  • JaedorJaedor Denver, COPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon

    Wow this is an old thread.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins
    Originally posted by Torluk
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Shame on them for simply removing it and not saying anything to anyone, and then threatening bans because people want the money back because they didn't get everything they thought they were paying for.

    If I remember correctly, the situation occurred slightly differently from that.  Turbine basically copied and pasted their format from the advertisement for the RoI expansion and updated it for RoR.  Then a few days later they came out and said they had made a mistake and never intended to leave in the part where it said the players who bought the expansion would recieve the instances for free.  So the people who had bought the expansion before the second announcement, quite rightly, kicked up a real fuss about it.

    Not quite. 

    They did change the wording on the FAQ but didn't tell anyone about it.  When people saw the change and wanted a refund, they basically said that the erroneous FAQ was not legally binding and tough luck on getting a refund.  they then blamed the erroneous FAQ on a copy/paste error.  After that they decided to honor the original FAQ rather than give ANY refunds.

    If this was an isolated incident then I think they would get a bigger pass by the gaming community but it is just the latest in a long line of those sorts of mistakes.  That is why they're so sleazy.  They still have their core of fans that only care they can play in Middle Earth and I guess that is enough for them to get by on.

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by fenistil
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

    From what I quickly read through it doesn't seem it is an issue of them giving a refund.

     

    The issue is that you already applied the key and got the special items on your characters and are now asking for a refund (albeit for a diffrent part of the expansion). They are saying they can't give you a refund because you already got those digital items and it seems that is a long standing policy.

     

    Maybe I'm reading it wrond but it sounds like if you hadn't already received some of the items from the expansion that they would give a refund.

    Thing is that you cannot buy expansion without those items.  So it is just saying "no refunds at all" in other words.

     

    When you buy it you have to apply the code to the account right? It sounds like up until the point you apply the code you may be able to get a refund.

     

    I get that information was incorrect and/or changed so I can see where people may want a refund. I can also see where Turbine could see it as the person applied the code and has been using those items that they got with the pack but now want money back but they've already gained from the special items (I have no idea what these items are so maybe not). That is a tricky spot.

    Yeah? Now how many people don't enter it after they buy?  1%?  

    Sorry it is stlll "no refund at all" in other words practially.

    Expansion have not released yet. So people have right to refund. 

    If Turbine is oh so damaged by people using meaningless fluff pre-order rewards then deduct 10% of pre-purcharse price as a fee for those virtual items.

     

     

    Turbine get flak for their practices and rightfully so.

  • SharkypalSharkypal SomewherePosts: 1,137Member

    Firstly, as a consequence of this incident, Turbine won't see another dime from me.

    The gaming industry in general needs a total overhaul.

    I can't condone preordering tbh, I don't preorder socks, shirts, cars, groceries, cell phones so why the hell does the gaming industry insist on offering these ridiculous lead times on buying (essentially funding) their unreleased products. I didn't realise that we were all investors in these game companies as I have never been invited to a shareholder meeting (I guess they forgot to mail me an invite /sigh).

    Of course features are going to be added/removed during the development of a game and if you remove a feature that was a major selling point of your 'pre order' campaign, then people have every right to demand their money back.

    The gaming industry has basically written their own rules and the major tenet is 'once we have your money, F**K YOU'.

    Well I'm afraid that just isn't going to fly and the easiest way to curtail this endless cupidity is to stop preordering games months and years in advance. In this day and age, there is no reason for your hard earned dollars to sit in someone else's bank account for months on end.

    JM2C

    PS: And this 'you already entered the code so too bad' excuse is just pathetic and an obvious mechanism designed to make it more difficult to cry foul (no surprise there). Turbine (and others), simply deactivate the code and move on. They like to pretend it's a big imposition, but in reality, it isn't. It is done all the time under different circumstances where game keys are concerned.

     

     

  • MinscMinsc Burford, ONPosts: 1,271Member Uncommon
    Sorry to burst you're bubble but in this case the customer is in fact wrong. The FAQ is not an ad for the expansion so if information there is wrong you can't claim false advertizing.

    If the instance cluster was going to be in the xpack they would have included it in the feature list
  • ThenextbigthingThenextbigthing NuneatonPosts: 104Member

    Surely only a halfwit would buy something and then try to return it without using it to find out whether they liked it or not?

     

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