I know the title might be a little mis-leading, But I couldn't think of anything different at the time.
What I'm trying to say though, Is I've been playing GW2 since headstart, I'm loving every aspect of it.
But what I notice is the game is making a lot of people who WERE saying "Give us something new in an MMO!" now say "I miss the trinity" or "Why doesn't gear matter in pvp?" "Why aren't the stats more complex?" "No raids?" "No real endgame? WTF?" (which isn't true of course)
But it just suprises me how a lot of people were handed something very different from the norm and then complain that it's not the same.
Why don't these people become accountants or something if they love numbers and more of the same everyday?
Sorry that this is a rant post. I guess I just don't understand MMO gamers of today. But then again. I don't think even THEY know what they really want...Thoughts?
actually, GW2 is exactly like any other MMO before, thats why you find people complaining, the only place in the game where gear doesnt matter is in Spvp, Eveything else is all about grind and dungeons farming, gear and stats do matter and will give you an advantage over a an ungeared players, like any other MMO before.
Some people just like to whine, about anything and everything. Specially on the Internet, where it's so easy to hide behind a computer screen to be a negative nuisance.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Just because something is different doesn't necessarily make it better.
I will say something positive though. I really was surprised how much I enjoyed the vistas and jumping puzzles in GW2. That is something I'd welcome with open arms in future MMO's.
I look at GW2 this way... It will be my fun free time killer. I can hop on when I only have a little while and do something I enjoy. When I have more time I will be on a more traditional "trinity" mmo tanking away.
Well the "no trinity' complaint I think is more focused at dungeons which do require a new trinity of sorts to do or suffer greatly for it, and they don't know it... granted even with it its still rough, particularly trash. Bosses are a joke usually.
The end game complaint I agree with. It lacks much in that department compared to other games. People seem to try and claim that stuff is endgame making it a point to list it but yet those points like exploration and the likes exist already on other games. GW2 has LESS end game then other games. Its not expected to have as much to compete with other games, but really end game only has Grind Prestige, Grind Dungeons, and Farm. WvW can sort of be considered though the fact that its from lvl 1 it doesn't make it feel real 'end game' which does give that illusion. It has end game but what it does have is nothing new, and many of the things can be quite a bit tedious actually which is a bit of a problem considering people are playing GW2 looking for just straight action and there it goes making you farm dungeons repeatedly over and over so many times.
I love how people say GW2 DEs / hearts are better than quests because they have a "story" behind them. Yea, they do, if you got there first, when the event first started, and didn't happen to join in.
Know what else has a story to them? Quests in every single MMORPG out there. It's not their fault you didn't bother to read.
Think of the Trinity system as.... well, a unilateral triangle (duh), where each of the three points represent three very distinct roles.
Top: Tank Bottom Left: Healer Bottom Right: DPS
Now place a dot anywhere inside the area of this triangle which represents YOUR play style, the way YOU know how to have fun.
Now draw a smaller triangle inside the first one roughly 25% of the size of the original.
If your dot is in the space between the two, you're probably pissed off with GW2. If your dot is in the middle of the smaller triangle, you're probably ok. Arenanet, in their best efforts, tried to fix a problem that has plagued MMMOs since EQ, which demanded a resource that was constantly low (healers or tanks).
Their fix went about it the wrong way. By making EVERYONE dps, tank, healer... they muddied up the perceived VALUE of each distinct role, the dependency between each role and strategies that emerge from having such distinct roles.
Played > UO AC AC2 AO SWG FFXI DAOC GW WOW L2 EQ2 LOTRO EVE CoX DDO EAB Neo MXO TR AOC War Aion Playing > Nothing Awaiting > Sigh.. Wishing > Shadowrun Online
Originally posted by Jimmydean I love how people say GW2 DEs / hearts are better than quests because they have a "story" behind them. Yea, they do, if you got there first, when the event first started, and didn't happen to join in. Know what else has a story to them? Quests in every single MMORPG out there. It's not their fault you didn't bother to read.
Quest hubs never bothered me. I don't think that it was the best move to remove them altogether. Hearts do not remove hubs. They just remove the need to click on the NPCs. I don't see how they are anything new. I can go into rift and find a hub with 5 NPCs giving out quests. If I take those NPCs out and just have the quest populate in my log just for strolling by the area, what's the difference?
If any game has a truly hub-less quest system, it's Rift. Technically, Instant Adventures have no hubs at all. You don't go to them to get them, you get them 1st then they tell you where to go and it could be anywhere in the zone. When its over, it auto completes and you get the next one. And while it is more accurately Hub-less than GW2. It's not the best system either. You can level to cap that way, but you will probably go out of your mind doing it. However, as a system, it works well in conjunction with Rifts, Zone Invasions, foothold spawns and traditional hubs. You may not like Rift, but the system has more going for it to be utilized in future MMOs than Hearts.
Originally posted by StoneRoses Just waiting for these folks to finally move on to another MMO so they can rinse and repeat the same scenario.
yep MoP next.. planetside 2 will get the same treatment.. sure NWN will be the get same thing and so on and so on.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
The problem is everyone keeps looking at mmo players and talking about them like they are one entity with one mind. No wonder we as a community look so biopolar and like we don't know what we want. Granted some of us may actually be bipolar. Some of us may not know what we want. But the truth is that mmo players encompass a vast and very diverse group of people with gaming expectations that range to include everything under the sun. You can never make everyone happy all the time, and if you try to do just that, you set yourself up for failure. This is true in life, and it is true in the world of mmos.
This is very true ^
It also gets compounded by people having unrealistic expectations. People often like what's familiar and easy, but they also want very idealistic things. Most people don't bother to think about the logistics, or how such an idea would actually be implemented. There's still a very vocal subset of MMO players who keep asking for physically impossible games. Some devs try and give them as close as they can to that impossibility, but it's never 'good enough'. Even some very well known gamers are guilty of this.
Furthermore, for whatever reason, MMOs generate some preconceptions that no other genre does. For whatever reason, when it comes to MMOs, you have a lot more people that expect every little thing about the game to be tailored to them. They are incapable of fully enjoying the game, because they never approach MMOs like a new game, and more like 'how many of the features that I want is this one providing?'.
People never do that when it comes to a new FPS, or a new action RPG, or a new sports game. For nearly every other game it's 'does it look fun?', and then 'am i having fun?'. Everything else is just a perk. However, when it comes to MMOs, it's always 'why doesn't it have feature X, or Y. It's a wierd phenomenon, but for some reason 'just having fun' seems to always take a backseat when it comes to MMOs.
Yes, people like the "old way". Whats wrong with that?
People are probably missing the "old way" right now in GW2 because the "new game smell" has worn off and people are seeing that GW2 is lacking a bit of polish.
Even after the recent patch there are still a lot of broken DEs and Skill challenges.
The dungeons have various bugs, broken mechanics and nearly unkillable bosses. To top this off they recently released a patch to prevent farming the dungeons and its bugged as well.
The raid DEs, namely the dragons, are a joke and dont scale nearly as much as ArenaNet said they would.
The much vaunted WvWvW degenerates into a zerg fest and AoE spam.
Yeah, GW2 is less than a month old and these issues will be sorted out but right now they are not. So, when people look at the "new way" they see bugs and when they look at the "old way" they see polish.
But what I notice is the game is making a lot of people who WERE saying "Give us something new in an MMO!" now say "I miss the trinity" or "Why doesn't gear matter in pvp?" "Why aren't the stats more complex?" "No raids?" "No real endgame? WTF?" (which isn't true of course)
People are resistant to change. Fact. First principle of Change Management.
Also, I think some players who are used to the clunch of gear power, holy trinity and min/maxing starts to realize that they are really not that good in game that don't have those things - which is what those players should've realise in the first place, it is the reason why they love mmorpg not fps, lol.
Yes, people like the "old way". Whats wrong with that?
People are probably missing the "old way" right now in GW2 because the "new game smell" has worn off and people are seeing that GW2 is lacking a bit of polish.
Even after the recent patch there are still a lot of broken DEs and Skill challenges.
Ohmy gawd a new ly released MMO with bugs, the horror, the horror I say.
Some people are happy with Guild Wars 2. Some people were happy with the traditional game mechanics that Guild Wars 2 moved away from and are upset that GW2 doesn't use them. The two groups mostly aren't the same people.
And, of course, there are people who wanted something new, but not the particular new things that GW2 offers.
The problem is everyone keeps looking at mmo players and talking about them like they are one entity with one mind. No wonder we as a community look so biopolar and like we don't know what we want. Granted some of us may actually be bipolar. Some of us may not know what we want. But the truth is that mmo players encompass a vast and very diverse group of people with gaming expectations that range to include everything under the sun. You can never make everyone happy all the time, and if you try to do just that, you set yourself up for failure. This is true in life, and it is true in the world of mmos.
This is very true ^
It also gets compounded by people having unrealistic expectations. People often like what's familiar and easy, but they also want very idealistic things. Most people don't bother to think about the logistics, or how such an idea would actually be implemented. There's still a very vocal subset of MMO players who keep asking for physically impossible games. Some devs try and give them as close as they can to that impossibility, but it's never 'good enough'. Even some very well known gamers are guilty of this.
Furthermore, for whatever reason, MMOs generate some preconceptions that no other genre does. For whatever reason, when it comes to MMOs, you have a lot more people that expect every little thing about the game to be tailored to them. They are incapable of fully enjoying the game, because they never approach MMOs like a new game, and more like 'how many of the features that I want is this one providing?'.
People never do that when it comes to a new FPS, or a new action RPG, or a new sports game. For nearly every other game it's 'does it look fun?', and then 'am i having fun?'. Everything else is just a perk. However, when it comes to MMOs, it's always 'why doesn't it have feature X, or Y. It's a wierd phenomenon, but for some reason 'just having fun' seems to always take a backseat when it comes to MMOs.
I very much agree with you. It does seem that a lot of people just don't know how to relax and have fun anymore. There are a lot of gamers out there that are very passionate about their games, to the point where they kind of take the games a little too seriously. If they are still having fun, more power to them, but I get the feeling a lot of the people who do take them so seriously are not having as much fun as they could. Whenever I find myself not having fun anymore, or getting upset with the game or the community, I might rant for a few minutes, but then I just turn off the game, cancel the subscription, and move on to something else that makes me happy for a while. I've found that many times once I take that break, a few weeks or a few months, I can come back to the game later and it is fun again.
I can somewhat understand why players are more nitpicky with MMOs. Most of them are a much bigger investment than just buying a game from other genres. The monthly fee charged by many games has kept me from playing some MMOs that are fairly fun, and worth the box price, but for whatever reason I don't like them enough to justify the investment of the monthly fee. It never sounds like much until you add it up over time.
However you are absolutely right. There are too many gamers out there with completely unrealistic expectations for their games, especially brand new games. They expect the new game to have every single feature they loved from the games they've been playing for years, when a lot of those features took years to be implemented in the original games in the first place. Then there is a clamoring for everything they want to be added now or will quit the game, all while the devs are busy trying to fix the bugs in what is already there.
But anyways back to the original point of the thread, I haven't really grouped much yet to see how different the game is without the trinity. In other games, I do tend to play more of the support or healing roles, so without that option in GW2, it has been fun for me to just melt faces instead. I think it is a nice idea that certain people are not required for a viable group, but I do kind of miss healing.
I'm not sure I miss the raids though. They can be fun, don't get me wrong, but again I tend to run into the people who take the game too seriously in raids and suck all the fun out of the game for me.
Overall tho, changes or not, I'm having a lot of fun in GW2. ^_^
Playing: None Have Played: City of Heroes, Guild Wars, World of Warcraft, Fallen Earth, Diablo 3, DC Universe Online, Marvel Heroes, Guild Wars 2, Star Wars The Old Republic
I've said it countless times and I'll say it again , P2P brings out the best community in a MMO. F2P/B2P only brings idiotic unskilled gamers that can't do anything and just whine and bitch 24/7. With a P2P those cry babies will cry for a month and gtfo then we get some peace of quiet.
Yup that's why WoW is such a rolemodel of a great community, the bad ones all vanished after a month.
/sarcasm off.
Honestly that's only on forums, I haven't seen much whining and bitching in game in GW2 yet, not even close to most P2P games I played. Most I've seen in chat are questions and helpful answers. Other than the occasional basic "you are all noobs" and "worst team ever" in pvp but that's common place in every game that offers PvP.
I gave gw2 a go, got my war to level 53, I prefer the old way. I miss my tank, I'll dabble a lil while longer at least until storm legion comes out, then I'm most likely gone
Originally posted by derek39 I know the title might be a little mis-leading, But I couldn't think of anything different at the time.
What I'm trying to say though, Is I've been playing GW2 since headstart, I'm loving every aspect of it.
But what I notice is the game is making a lot of people who WERE saying "Give us something new in an MMO!" now say "I miss the trinity" or "Why doesn't gear matter in pvp?" "Why aren't the stats more complex?" "No raids?" "No real endgame? WTF?" (which isn't true of course)
But it just suprises me how a lot of people were handed something very different from the norm and then complain that it's not the same.
Why don't these people become accountants or something if they love numbers and more of the same everyday?
Sorry that this is a rant post. I guess I just don't understand MMO gamers of today. But then again. I don't think even THEY know what they really want...Thoughts?
You made the statement that people complained because they asked for something new and weren't happy when they got it. But that's not the issue for many. People are upset because for so long we were told GW2 will be different. And once you get below the presentation of it, very little is new or different and that's why people are upset.
*************this in a nutshell....GW2, i will add, appears to be more shallow than the standard MMO as well.
Comments
actually, GW2 is exactly like any other MMO before, thats why you find people complaining, the only place in the game where gear doesnt matter is in Spvp, Eveything else is all about grind and dungeons farming, gear and stats do matter and will give you an advantage over a an ungeared players, like any other MMO before.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Just because something is different doesn't necessarily make it better.
I will say something positive though. I really was surprised how much I enjoyed the vistas and jumping puzzles in GW2. That is something I'd welcome with open arms in future MMO's.
Well the "no trinity' complaint I think is more focused at dungeons which do require a new trinity of sorts to do or suffer greatly for it, and they don't know it... granted even with it its still rough, particularly trash. Bosses are a joke usually.
The end game complaint I agree with. It lacks much in that department compared to other games. People seem to try and claim that stuff is endgame making it a point to list it but yet those points like exploration and the likes exist already on other games. GW2 has LESS end game then other games. Its not expected to have as much to compete with other games, but really end game only has Grind Prestige, Grind Dungeons, and Farm. WvW can sort of be considered though the fact that its from lvl 1 it doesn't make it feel real 'end game' which does give that illusion. It has end game but what it does have is nothing new, and many of the things can be quite a bit tedious actually which is a bit of a problem considering people are playing GW2 looking for just straight action and there it goes making you farm dungeons repeatedly over and over so many times.
I love how people say GW2 DEs / hearts are better than quests because they have a "story" behind them. Yea, they do, if you got there first, when the event first started, and didn't happen to join in.
Know what else has a story to them? Quests in every single MMORPG out there. It's not their fault you didn't bother to read.
Here is an analogy of why people are pissed.
Think of the Trinity system as.... well, a unilateral triangle (duh), where each of the three points represent three very distinct roles.
Top: Tank
Bottom Left: Healer
Bottom Right: DPS
Now place a dot anywhere inside the area of this triangle which represents YOUR play style, the way YOU know how to have fun.
Now draw a smaller triangle inside the first one roughly 25% of the size of the original.
If your dot is in the space between the two, you're probably pissed off with GW2. If your dot is in the middle of the smaller triangle, you're probably ok. Arenanet, in their best efforts, tried to fix a problem that has plagued MMMOs since EQ, which demanded a resource that was constantly low (healers or tanks).
Their fix went about it the wrong way. By making EVERYONE dps, tank, healer... they muddied up the perceived VALUE of each distinct role, the dependency between each role and strategies that emerge from having such distinct roles.
Played > UO AC AC2 AO SWG FFXI DAOC GW WOW L2 EQ2 LOTRO EVE CoX DDO EAB Neo MXO TR AOC War Aion
Playing > Nothing
Awaiting > Sigh..
Wishing > Shadowrun Online
Quest hubs never bothered me. I don't think that it was the best move to remove them altogether. Hearts do not remove hubs. They just remove the need to click on the NPCs. I don't see how they are anything new. I can go into rift and find a hub with 5 NPCs giving out quests. If I take those NPCs out and just have the quest populate in my log just for strolling by the area, what's the difference?
If any game has a truly hub-less quest system, it's Rift. Technically, Instant Adventures have no hubs at all. You don't go to them to get them, you get them 1st then they tell you where to go and it could be anywhere in the zone. When its over, it auto completes and you get the next one. And while it is more accurately Hub-less than GW2. It's not the best system either. You can level to cap that way, but you will probably go out of your mind doing it. However, as a system, it works well in conjunction with Rifts, Zone Invasions, foothold spawns and traditional hubs. You may not like Rift, but the system has more going for it to be utilized in future MMOs than Hearts.
yep MoP next.. planetside 2 will get the same treatment.. sure NWN will be the get same thing and so on and so on.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
This is very true ^
It also gets compounded by people having unrealistic expectations. People often like what's familiar and easy, but they also want very idealistic things. Most people don't bother to think about the logistics, or how such an idea would actually be implemented. There's still a very vocal subset of MMO players who keep asking for physically impossible games. Some devs try and give them as close as they can to that impossibility, but it's never 'good enough'. Even some very well known gamers are guilty of this.
Furthermore, for whatever reason, MMOs generate some preconceptions that no other genre does. For whatever reason, when it comes to MMOs, you have a lot more people that expect every little thing about the game to be tailored to them. They are incapable of fully enjoying the game, because they never approach MMOs like a new game, and more like 'how many of the features that I want is this one providing?'.
People never do that when it comes to a new FPS, or a new action RPG, or a new sports game. For nearly every other game it's 'does it look fun?', and then 'am i having fun?'. Everything else is just a perk. However, when it comes to MMOs, it's always 'why doesn't it have feature X, or Y. It's a wierd phenomenon, but for some reason 'just having fun' seems to always take a backseat when it comes to MMOs.
I miss DAoC
Yes, people like the "old way". Whats wrong with that?
People are probably missing the "old way" right now in GW2 because the "new game smell" has worn off and people are seeing that GW2 is lacking a bit of polish.
Even after the recent patch there are still a lot of broken DEs and Skill challenges.
The dungeons have various bugs, broken mechanics and nearly unkillable bosses. To top this off they recently released a patch to prevent farming the dungeons and its bugged as well.
The raid DEs, namely the dragons, are a joke and dont scale nearly as much as ArenaNet said they would.
The much vaunted WvWvW degenerates into a zerg fest and AoE spam.
Yeah, GW2 is less than a month old and these issues will be sorted out but right now they are not. So, when people look at the "new way" they see bugs and when they look at the "old way" they see polish.
People are resistant to change. Fact. First principle of Change Management.
Also, I think some players who are used to the clunch of gear power, holy trinity and min/maxing starts to realize that they are really not that good in game that don't have those things - which is what those players should've realise in the first place, it is the reason why they love mmorpg not fps, lol.
TESO in the not so distant future! I'd have be be here when that happens.
Ohmy gawd a new ly released MMO with bugs, the horror, the horror I say.
I miss DAoC
Some people are happy with Guild Wars 2. Some people were happy with the traditional game mechanics that Guild Wars 2 moved away from and are upset that GW2 doesn't use them. The two groups mostly aren't the same people.
And, of course, there are people who wanted something new, but not the particular new things that GW2 offers.
Well, they did brought back EQ old train
I just blindly assume people are getting owned in WvWvW and are taking it out on the forums.
I'm probably a few losses away from blowing a gasket too!
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
I very much agree with you. It does seem that a lot of people just don't know how to relax and have fun anymore. There are a lot of gamers out there that are very passionate about their games, to the point where they kind of take the games a little too seriously. If they are still having fun, more power to them, but I get the feeling a lot of the people who do take them so seriously are not having as much fun as they could. Whenever I find myself not having fun anymore, or getting upset with the game or the community, I might rant for a few minutes, but then I just turn off the game, cancel the subscription, and move on to something else that makes me happy for a while. I've found that many times once I take that break, a few weeks or a few months, I can come back to the game later and it is fun again.
I can somewhat understand why players are more nitpicky with MMOs. Most of them are a much bigger investment than just buying a game from other genres. The monthly fee charged by many games has kept me from playing some MMOs that are fairly fun, and worth the box price, but for whatever reason I don't like them enough to justify the investment of the monthly fee. It never sounds like much until you add it up over time.
However you are absolutely right. There are too many gamers out there with completely unrealistic expectations for their games, especially brand new games. They expect the new game to have every single feature they loved from the games they've been playing for years, when a lot of those features took years to be implemented in the original games in the first place. Then there is a clamoring for everything they want to be added now or will quit the game, all while the devs are busy trying to fix the bugs in what is already there.
But anyways back to the original point of the thread, I haven't really grouped much yet to see how different the game is without the trinity. In other games, I do tend to play more of the support or healing roles, so without that option in GW2, it has been fun for me to just melt faces instead. I think it is a nice idea that certain people are not required for a viable group, but I do kind of miss healing.
I'm not sure I miss the raids though. They can be fun, don't get me wrong, but again I tend to run into the people who take the game too seriously in raids and suck all the fun out of the game for me.
Overall tho, changes or not, I'm having a lot of fun in GW2. ^_^
Playing: None
Have Played: City of Heroes, Guild Wars, World of Warcraft, Fallen Earth, Diablo 3, DC Universe Online, Marvel Heroes, Guild Wars 2, Star Wars The Old Republic
Yup that's why WoW is such a rolemodel of a great community, the bad ones all vanished after a month.
/sarcasm off.
Honestly that's only on forums, I haven't seen much whining and bitching in game in GW2 yet, not even close to most P2P games I played. Most I've seen in chat are questions and helpful answers. Other than the occasional basic "you are all noobs" and "worst team ever" in pvp but that's common place in every game that offers PvP.
"WvW is an aoe zergfest!" = "I lost and need to find a reason why other than my poor play".
More often than not.
*************this in a nutshell....GW2, i will add, appears to be more shallow than the standard MMO as well.