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X-post from Reddit: You are all destroying the MMO genre, and you don't even know why you act the wa

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  • TardcoreTardcore MinskPosts: 2,325Member

    Yeah yeah blah blah blah, "I tried to show you something beautiful..." etc.

    I wonder if this person ever stoped to think that maybe, just maybe, all the rancor is coming from a player base that's grown up but is still only given children's toys to play with.

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    "Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "

  • NethermancerNethermancer Toronto, ONPosts: 520Member

    OP is missing a major point

    I do not play MMO's for gear or addiction

    I do not play MMO's because i think they are that fun

    I play MMO's for the PEOPLE i meet.

    EVE online and Vangaurd are not that fun but i met great people and we had an amazing time. These people are what kept me playing much more then the game itself.

     

     

    Playing: PO, EVE
    Waiting for: WoD
    Favourite MMOs: VG, EVE, FE and DDO
    Any person who expresses rage and loathing for an MMO is preposterous. He or she is like a person who has put on full armor and attacked a hot fudge sundae.

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member
     

    You can't blame players for this.  Some people, a small minority, maybe "content locusts", but many people would LOVE to find a new game that was interesting and engaging to stick with.  We did it with older "hardcore" and/or sandbox games back in the day, and people did it with good old mainstream WoW.

    Smed got it right in his most recent quote when asked about sandbox games.  He's late to the game, but at least he's seeing the light now.  

     

    • Developers are never, ever going to be able to continously create themepark content to keep up with the players.  Especially if they insist on making games that take only 30-60 days for players to max out.  Not only does it take too long to create this scripted themepark content, it's expensive as hell for the developers to make.  These games are taking upwards of five years to make, and players "finish" them in only 1-3 months before they are wanting more.
     
    • By comparison, emergent gameplay and sandbox features have an almost endless amount of content creation ability, and that content is driven by the players themselves.  The idea is to build tools and systems into the game engine so that players can take the wheel.  This doesn't mean that scripted content has to be completely abondoned, but it does mean taking these games back into more of a virtual world direction, rather than virtual amusement park.
    There's a market for these themepark games, but it's never going to be a base of people who hang around for years.  The ship sailed with WoW.  If game devs want to create and market "short term" MMO's, then they better plan for this from day one.  If they expect people to hang out and spend 1-2 years buying things from cash shops or paying a sub fee, they better find ways to put the control back in their player's hand, and do so in an interesting and engaging way.  Games like ArchAge, The Repopulation, and even the new Day Z mmo in production are a step in the right direction.  I think if someone can do emergent gameplay right, then more people will love it than anyone knows.

    To claim there is no market for sandbox games is a chicken and egg conondrum at this point.  We know lots of people liked the old ones.  Since WoW, the lion's share of people who came to the genre have ever even played a sandbox game, let alone one that was built with modern tools and a triple-A budget. 

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by grimal
     

    Ok, you have shown me there is a decline; that was never a point I had an issue with.  But the reasons for the decline you stated as fact, I am still waiting for the evidence behind that.

    The reason for the small decline is the deepest recession for more than 60 years.

    I disagree with this.  You know what sells well during hard times?  Cheap escapism.  Drugs, booze, movies, games, etc.  Movies have become repetitive boring copies of each other, and the few gems that aren't are often rewarded (unless they are too cerebral for today's population).  Same with TV shows.  How many good shows have been cancelled to make room for reality TV and other bullshit that required zero brain activity?  I told my daughter jsut today at lunch to really embrace books, because the odds are that entertainment is going to continue to be less and less entertaining for anyone with a brain.  

    Don't you really know what the problem is?  I mean can't you feel it yourself? Show me one AAA mmorpg game that game out in the last seven years which is *significantly different* than WoW.  Even GW2 is mostly just very well repackaged features we've all played for several years now.  It's still just a race to level cap, and a gear grind.  There are no other features there to allow for player-driven content, or emergent gameplay at all.   Is GW2 all that different in gameplay from Rift, or SWTOR, or LOTRO, or WoW, or TSW or anything else?  The only game anyone can point to as being different is EVE, and unfortunately that game does not appeal to everyone.  The *features* do, but the setting and content don't.

     

    Name me one significantly different FPS than Wolfenstein.

    Name me one significantly different RTS than Command and Conquer.

    Name me one significantly different Platformer than Donkey Kong.

    Name me one significantly different MOBA than DOTA.

    Name me one significantly different RPG than Ultima.

     

     

    When a game is significantly different than it predecessors it becomes a new genre. TBS >>>> RTS >>>> MOBA. RPG >>>> ARPG >>>> MMORPG for example.

    Well for starters wolfenstein wasn't real 3D (neither was doom for that matter) so the first one to do real 3D would be different. Quake, Duke Nukem and Half-life all provided a very different experience. The first battlefield was a different take as well.

     

    I see what you were going for but Dune came out before Command and Conquer so you'd probably want to use that to stick with your "What did anyone do different from the first in a genre" motife.

     

    A different platformer than Donkey Kong, well how about that new one they came out with where it is 3D but 2D at the same time, so you can rotate the world but then it plays as 2D from the new view. Certainly a new take and adds a whole new level.

     

    When you played the original Big 3 MMOs they all felt very different to one another. So saying that nothing is different is really missing the point that is being made. When someone played UO, then EQ, then AC, at no point did they say "They're all just clones of each other". But when someone plays the new theme parks which actively copy WoW, they feel like clones of WoW.

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member

    EXACTLY! thank you ! oh man that was awesome!

     

    yeah this is an ongoing problem. I see it in almost every post complaining about GW2 and God forbid you point this out, someone might call you a fanboi! GASP!

    I get called fanboi every time i point out the flaw in these people's logic (HA Spock would be laughing his butt off at the very notion of thinking these people had ANY logic whatsoever) And in these very forums everyday those same people gush after the games they love. the 2004 model. the ones that are failing miserably because they can't see the problems facing not only industry but also the economics of the time.

    You're getting bored because somewhere along the way you thought that the only reason you play was for gear. NO that's not how the mmo genre started and I am hopeful now that GW2 is released and a success that it's not how the MMO genre will end. Playing in an mmo was never about gear for me, until i was pulled in by these people then all there was to do is to stand around in town waiting for a group to form to run a dungeon for a few minutes and return to town.

    Lobby games are not what i signed up for. I played mmo's because it was amazing to see that they could take computer code and make it into a living world. With each new game focused on immersion this has been the case.

    The reason why so many of these 2004 style games are failing isn't just economics of not being able to sustain the monthly fee. it's also and more importantly the lack of life in their designed worlds. 

  • bingbongbrosbingbongbros Vista, CAPosts: 650Member Uncommon

    Completely and utterly agree with the OP's reddit link.  I've been regurgitating this sentiment for years and years.  MMOs didn't have this fucked up problem before WoW existed.  The community was miniscule compared to know and we had our own respecitive games we loved and did the same content for months if not years and loved it.

     

    The only thing that drives me away from a game is when it doesn't work or when the company starts bleeding customers for extra money on the side.  But I am LOVING gw2 and plan on sticking with it for a long time (more than a month).

    Playing: Smite, Marvel Heroes
    Played: Nexus:Kingdom of the Winds, Everquest, DAoC, Everquest 2, WoW, Matrix Online, Vangaurd, SWG, DDO, EVE, Fallen Earth, LoTRo, CoX, Champions Online, WAR, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Guild Wars, Rift, Tera, Aion, AoC, Gods and Heroes, DCUO, FF14, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, Wildstar, ESO, ArcheAge
    Waiting On: Nothing. Mmorpg's are dead.

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member
    Originally posted by Nethermancer

    OP is missing a major point

    I do not play MMO's for gear or addiction

    I do not play MMO's because i think they are that fun

    I play MMO's for the PEOPLE i meet.

    EVE online and Vangaurd are not that fun but i met great people and we had an amazing time. These people are what kept me playing much more then the game itself.

     

     

    No actually you are, you are the majority he's talking about and so am i. we both are the people these mmo's were really made for and the reason why this industry is holding on.

    The minority are the people they described as the complainers who want nothing but gear and run around complaining after they get what they want.

    You and I are the reasons GOOD games exist because we don't play for gear.

  • RossbossRossboss Runes of Magic, TXPosts: 240Member
    Originally posted by itgrowls
    Originally posted by Nethermancer

    OP is missing a major point

    I do not play MMO's for gear or addiction

    I do not play MMO's because i think they are that fun

    I play MMO's for the PEOPLE i meet.

    EVE online and Vangaurd are not that fun but i met great people and we had an amazing time. These people are what kept me playing much more then the game itself.

     

     

    No actually you are, you are the majority he's talking about and so am i. we both are the people these mmo's were really made for and the reason why this industry is holding on.

    The minority are the people they described as the complainers who want nothing but gear and run around complaining after they get what they want.

    You and I are the reasons GOOD games exist because we don't play for gear.

    You guys are in it for the MMO aspect, I am in it for the RPG aspect. Can we go back to being seperate? What happened to your chatrooms and facebook and twitter? What happened to my games that actually had storylines and gear came from the boss that was wearing it? Why can't we be friends?

    I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
    I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
    I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.

  • AcidonAcidon Salem, ORPosts: 797Member
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Cable companies are struggling with constant customer loss that can't be replaced. This is because the TV is so bad and it has chased away many of that viewers it once had.
    The reason companies put reality TV out is not because it gets record breaking viewers. They put it out because it is the cheapest stuff to make so it doesn't need as many viewers to be successful the way expensive dramas do.
    Those are the true facts.

     

    The movie industry is also at one of its lowest profitability levels in all of history. This is because many people feel the majority of the movies coming out are crap. 

    Basically your argument is missing out on all of the actual facts. Television, movies and gaming markets (most notably MMOs) are having trouble. Part of it is the economy, part of it is because of the crap products being put out there.

     

    Umm you toss out a lot of statements as fact here.  I'd like to see the sources for all these "facts."

    Google or follow the news once in a while, the information is out there.

    In other words: no, you havent got shit to back up your statements with.

    Last year Avengers had one of the highest gross sales EVER. Batman also sold out beyond all expectations and there are more MMO's than ever before. SW:TOR sold over 2 million copies and has an estimated sub. base of 500.000. Rift sold over a million copies,  GW2 sold over 2 million.

    I may personally not like the direction the genre has taken towards a more casual type but that the genre is struggling is complete and utter rubbish.

    Didn't read my other post did you. I'll give you a minute.

     

    How about the correlation between traditional TV and Movie viewing declining and the rise of Internet use with the easy access to movies and TV in way they the veiwer can control?

     

    But the real reason is there is more entertainment option these days in 1920's it was the Music hall theatres, Silent Movies, Books 1950's TV, Movies, Theatre, Records, Books, 1980's Cable TV, Video Games, Home Video, Theatre, CD's, Cinema, Books, 2000, Internet (which is the biggest change in humanity  since the Industrial Revolution and has put us in the Information Age), Cinema, MP3, DVD, Video Games, 100's of TV channels, Books.  Access to entertainment has never been so diverse and easy to get as it is with the Internet traditional entertainment platforms are bound to suffer. Add to that a deep recession in the western world for the past 4 years and you should get my point.

     

    Exactly.  Thank you.

    When I was teaching myself how to code, and then teaching myself how to use HTML, first there was no internet, then there was usenet and such - not the world wide web as it is now.  Hell, I still have a "Map of the Internet" from a computer magazine from the 90's.

    Point is, I was buying $60 books like mad out of the book store.  Now, you can get all the information you want for free on the web.  Things *are* changing, and have been.

    I mean no disrespect here - But I would imagine those that don't really remember life before the internet don't fully comprehend the incredible difference it made and is still making.

    Compared to other forms of entertainment, MMOs are in their infancy.  It wasn't all that long ago that MUDS were amazing marvels that were spawned based on DOOR games in BBS's.  Yes it's time for a new direction (opinion), but I firmly believe it will come just as it should.  

    You can't expect radical changes to suit your fancy in a matter of months or a few years (again (sigh) opinion).

    Playing: H1Z1, The Crew, Defiance, APB:Reloaded
    Mourning: World of Darkness, Vanguard, City of Heroes


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  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by MindTrigger

    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by grimal
     

    Snip!

     

    Name me one significantly different FPS than Wolfenstein.

    Name me one significantly different RTS than Command and Conquer.

    Name me one significantly different Platformer than Donkey Kong.

    Name me one significantly different MOBA than DOTA.

    Name me one significantly different RPG than Ultima.

     

     

    When a game is significantly different than it predecessors it becomes a new genre. TBS >>>> RTS >>>> MOBA. RPG >>>> ARPG >>>> MMORPG for example.

    Not true at all.  EVE is an MMORPG, and it is almost completely different than other themepark games. Not just the space theme, but what constitutes gameplay and community features. SWG was an MMORPG, and looked and played nothing at all like the current games.  If you want to argue that EVE and other sandbox games are "true" MMORPG's and that themepark games have devolved to simple MMOG's (sans the RPG, emergent gameplay and community features), I'll agree with you.  I'll even agree that Sandbox and Themepark games are their own genres alltogether.  They are that different.  However, they are unfortunately lumped together on sites like this one and by the industry as a whole that insists on referring to them generally as MMORPG games.  Maybe the term MMORPG needs to be abondoned alltogther so we can move on.

     

     

    Originally posted by Calerxes

    Originally posted by Cuathon
    Originally posted by Calerxes

     Snip!

    What I should have added was significantly different in the AAA world as there are many different games but asking for something in the world of AAA games to be significantly different means to play another genre as the more money you pour into a game the more people you have to attract thus the copying of tried and tested mechanics leading to clones. When will gamers realise that the mainstream AAA world is not going to suddenly change course becuase a few forum goers whinge, I don't buy mainstream music and cry because its not as avant garde as Autechre or The Mars Volta and thats what gamers do all the time.

     

    @Mindtrigger. @Snarlingwolf.

     

    I expanded on what I meant.

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • DewmDewm Soldotna, AKPosts: 1,341Member
    Originally posted by Acidon
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Cable companies are struggling with constant customer loss that can't be replaced. This is because the TV is so bad and it has chased away many of that viewers it once had.
    The reason companies put reality TV out is not because it gets record breaking viewers. They put it out because it is the cheapest stuff to make so it doesn't need as many viewers to be successful the way expensive dramas do.
    Those are the true facts.

     

    The movie industry is also at one of its lowest profitability levels in all of history. This is because many people feel the majority of the movies coming out are crap. 

    Basically your argument is missing out on all of the actual facts. Television, movies and gaming markets (most notably MMOs) are having trouble. Part of it is the economy, part of it is because of the crap products being put out there.

     

    Umm you toss out a lot of statements as fact here.  I'd like to see the sources for all these "facts."

    Google or follow the news once in a while, the information is out there.

    In other words: no, you havent got shit to back up your statements with.

    Last year Avengers had one of the highest gross sales EVER. Batman also sold out beyond all expectations and there are more MMO's than ever before. SW:TOR sold over 2 million copies and has an estimated sub. base of 500.000. Rift sold over a million copies,  GW2 sold over 2 million.

    I may personally not like the direction the genre has taken towards a more casual type but that the genre is struggling is complete and utter rubbish.

    Didn't read my other post did you. I'll give you a minute.

     

    How about the correlation between traditional TV and Movie viewing declining and the rise of Internet use with the easy access to movies and TV in way they the veiwer can control?

     

    But the real reason is there is more entertainment option these days in 1920's it was the Music hall theatres, Silent Movies, Books 1950's TV, Movies, Theatre, Records, Books, 1980's Cable TV, Video Games, Home Video, Theatre, CD's, Cinema, Books, 2000, Internet (which is the biggest change in humanity  since the Industrial Revolution and has put us in the Information Age), Cinema, MP3, DVD, Video Games, 100's of TV channels, Books.  Access to entertainment has never been so diverse and easy to get as it is with the Internet traditional entertainment platforms are bound to suffer. Add to that a deep recession in the western world for the past 4 years and you should get my point.

     

    Exactly.  Thank you.

    When I was teaching myself how to code, and then teaching myself how to use HTML, first there was no internet, then there was usenet and such - not the world wide web as it is now.  Hell, I still have a "Map of the Internet" from a computer magazine from the 90's.

    Point is, I was buying $60 books like mad out of the book store.  Now, you can get all the information you want for free on the web.  Things *are* changing, and have been.

    I mean no disrespect here - But I would imagine those that don't really remember life before the internet don't fully comprehend the incredible difference it made and is still making.

    Compared to other forms of entertainment, MMOs are in their infancy.  It wasn't all that long ago that MUDS were amazing marvels that were spawned based on DOOR games in BBS's.  Yes it's time for a new direction (opinion), but I firmly believe it will come just as it should.  

    You can't expect radical changes to suit your fancy in a matter of months or a few years (again (sigh) opinion).

    Acidon

    Def. agree with you!

     

     

    As to the other guy who posted the thing about "cable companies".. I am a project manager for the largest cable company up here in Alaska.. and I can say without a shadow of a doubt we are busier then we were 20 years ago, 10 years ago..or even 4 years ago before the economy took a hit.

    So I would love to see where you get these "facts" about cable companies "struggling with costumer loss"..

    My guess is you are pulling them out of your arse.

    Please check out my channel. I do gaming reviews, gaming related reviews & lets plays. Thanks!

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Indol

    It seems like many are more motivated by their ego and greed rather than just playing a game for fun's sake.

    I think most such (at least on this board) are just too fascinated with their own prose.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    Originally posted by Dewm

    Def. agree with you!

     

     

    As to the other guy who posted the thing about "cable companies".. I am a project manager for the largest cable company up here in Alaska.. and I can say without a shadow of a doubt we are busier then we were 20 years ago, 10 years ago..or even 4 years ago before the economy took a hit.

    So I would love to see where you get these "facts" about cable companies "struggling with costumer loss"..

    My guess is you are pulling them out of your arse.

    I already posted quotes from sources that detail how cable companies are losing televsion subscribers. So either look at my post or use your lazy "sometime between 9 and 5" ass to go google for a few seconds and find it yourself.

     

    Television subscriptions are declining and have been, it is true and it is easy to find the facts.

     

    "But we have some business therefore the industry as a whole can't be losing televsion subscribers, unfathomable!!". Is as bad as the person who said "The Avengers was a hit movie therefore the movies aren't seeing decreasing ticket sales". Amazing how some minds "work".

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member
    Originally posted by Calerxes

    Originally posted by MindTrigger

    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by grimal
     

    Snip!

     

    Name me one significantly different FPS than Wolfenstein.

    Name me one significantly different RTS than Command and Conquer.

    Name me one significantly different Platformer than Donkey Kong.

    Name me one significantly different MOBA than DOTA.

    Name me one significantly different RPG than Ultima.

     

     

    When a game is significantly different than it predecessors it becomes a new genre. TBS >>>> RTS >>>> MOBA. RPG >>>> ARPG >>>> MMORPG for example.

    Not true at all.  EVE is an MMORPG, and it is almost completely different than other themepark games. Not just the space theme, but what constitutes gameplay and community features. SWG was an MMORPG, and looked and played nothing at all like the current games.  If you want to argue that EVE and other sandbox games are "true" MMORPG's and that themepark games have devolved to simple MMOG's (sans the RPG, emergent gameplay and community features), I'll agree with you.  I'll even agree that Sandbox and Themepark games are their own genres alltogether.  They are that different.  However, they are unfortunately lumped together on sites like this one and by the industry as a whole that insists on referring to them generally as MMORPG games.  Maybe the term MMORPG needs to be abondoned alltogther so we can move on.

     

     

    Originally posted by Calerxes

    Originally posted by Cuathon
    Originally posted by Calerxes

     Snip!

    What I should have added was significantly different in the AAA world as there are many different games but asking for something in the world of AAA games to be significantly different means to play another genre as the more money you pour into a game the more people you have to attract thus the copying of tried and tested mechanics leading to clones. When will gamers realise that the mainstream AAA world is not going to suddenly change course becuase a few forum goers whinge, I don't buy mainstream music and cry because its not as avant garde as Autechre or The Mars Volta and thats what gamers do all the time.

     

    @Mindtrigger. @Snarlingwolf.

     

    I expanded on what I meant.

    I believe we have a case where the under-informed masses have detected that somemthing is wrong with the current themepark games, but they really don't know what it is.  They know they are getting bored fast.  They know the content is too easy (after they tear through it all), and they know the game companies cannot deliver new content fast enough.

    What they don't know is that there are answers to this that exist already.  I call it sandbox play or emergent gameplay.  GW2 is *not* emrgent gameplay, and thier events are not all that dynamic.  Emergent gameplay gives the players features that allow them to create their own content.  I won't get into what I think some of those features are in this post because it would take a while, but what I do know is what Smed said and I agree with.  The game devs are behind the curve, and I'll go further to say that mainstream MMO players don't really know what the problem is.  What's likely to happen is the same thing that is happening now, players tearing through games and moving on, or the themepark sub-genre is going to have to evolve to encorporate more emergent gameplay / sandbox features.

    The fact is, they can't keep making these MMOs that take five years and tens of millions to build, but only 30-60 days for players to complete.  It's just going to bury the market.

    That's fine with me.  It will make more room for smaller companies willing to listen and take chances.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,602Member Uncommon

    OP's mad because GW2 didn't live up to the hype
    and now there is a backlash. Same as SWTOR and just about every other game released since WoW.

    Maybe if developers will "get it" and go back to the roots that made this genre successful, Players will be happy to play instead of bitching about re processed crap we are fed.

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    OP's mad because GW2 didn't live up to the hype

    Nothing is living up to anyone's hype anymore.  Actually GW2 is *the best* of the current themeparks in my opinion.  It's not a game changer though, and they will find themselves in the same situation as all the other themeparks on the market.  Running to WoW or another themepark isn't going to solve the problem.

    We had all hoped GW2 would be more, but I think it has become just about all any pure themepark can be and they did a great job doing it.  What else can be done to a themepark?  You can argue they should have stuck with the trinity, or gone to some four-class system, but the rest of the game is what it is unless they start adding sandbox features.

    Show me an upcoming themepark game that is a vast improvement over GW2 or anything before it.  They all function basically the same and people are bored with it.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Nethermancer

    OP is missing a major point

    I do not play MMO's for gear or addiction

    I do not play MMO's because i think they are that fun

    I play MMO's for the PEOPLE i meet.

    EVE online and Vangaurd are not that fun but i met great people and we had an amazing time. These people are what kept me playing much more then the game itself.

     

     

    But you are not a representative of everyone.

    I do NOT play MMO for the people i meet.

    I play a MMO for how good the MULTIPLAYER portion of the game is.

    If a MMO is not fun, i will pass, just like any other games.

  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Originally posted by Calerxes

    Originally posted by MindTrigger

    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by grimal
     

    Snip!

     

     

    @Mindtrigger. @Snarlingwolf.

     

    I expanded on what I meant.

    I believe we have a case where the under-informed masses have detected that somemthing is wrong with the current themepark games, but they really don't know what it is.  They know they are getting bored fast.  They know the content is too easy (after they tear through it all), and they know the game companies cannot deliver new content fast enough.

    What they don't know is that there are answers to this that exist already.  I call it sandbox play or emergent gameplay.  GW2 is *not* emrgent gameplay, and thier events are not all that dynamic.  Emergent gameplay gives the players features that allow them to create their own content.  I won't get into what I think some of those features are in this post because it would take a while, but what I do know is what Smed said and I agree with.  The game devs are behind the curve, and I'll go further to say that mainstream MMO players don't really know what the problem is.  What's likely to happen is the same thing that is happening now, players tearing through games and moving on, or the themepark sub-genre is going to have to evolve to encorporate more emergent gameplay / sandbox features.

    The fact is, they can't keep making these MMOs that take five years and tens of millions to build, but only 30-60 days for players to complete.  It's just going to bury the market.

    That's fine with me.  It will make more room for smaller companies willing to listen and take chances.

     

    Smaller companies are doing this already but they don't have the investment and experience to do it properly so the products come out unfinished (Xsyon, MO) not full developed, meaning filled with exploits (Darkfall, Perpetuum) its a catch 22 situation you need good investment, experienced dev teams and time to complete the projects properly but that makes the cost prohibitive for the audience you are after. You then start to find ways to cut costs and that means inplementing already tried and tested features thus going down the road of the CLONE. Rift is a great example of this when it was first announced it was outlined to be the spiritual successer to EQ and Vanguard but they managed the project so tightly the game turned out as WoW 1.5. We need to support the Indies through thick and thin to show the big boys we want that type of gameplay. Communities coming together can do this just like the GNU/Linux community did 20 years ago now GNU/Linux/Open Source is everywhere and Microsoft has genuine competition.

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • FadedbombFadedbomb Aiken, SCPosts: 2,081Member
    Originally posted by Calerxes

    Originally posted by MindTrigger

    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by grimal
     

    Snip!

     

    Name me one significantly different FPS than Wolfenstein.

    Name me one significantly different RTS than Command and Conquer.

    Name me one significantly different Platformer than Donkey Kong.

    Name me one significantly different MOBA than DOTA.

    Name me one significantly different RPG than Ultima.

     

     

    When a game is significantly different than it predecessors it becomes a new genre. TBS >>>> RTS >>>> MOBA. RPG >>>> ARPG >>>> MMORPG for example.

    Not true at all.  EVE is an MMORPG, and it is almost completely different than other themepark games. Not just the space theme, but what constitutes gameplay and community features. SWG was an MMORPG, and looked and played nothing at all like the current games.  If you want to argue that EVE and other sandbox games are "true" MMORPG's and that themepark games have devolved to simple MMOG's (sans the RPG, emergent gameplay and community features), I'll agree with you.  I'll even agree that Sandbox and Themepark games are their own genres alltogether.  They are that different.  However, they are unfortunately lumped together on sites like this one and by the industry as a whole that insists on referring to them generally as MMORPG games.  Maybe the term MMORPG needs to be abondoned alltogther so we can move on.

     

     

    Originally posted by Calerxes

    Originally posted by Cuathon
    Originally posted by Calerxes

     Snip!

    What I should have added was significantly different in the AAA world as there are many different games but asking for something in the world of AAA games to be significantly different means to play another genre as the more money you pour into a game the more people you have to attract thus the copying of tried and tested mechanics leading to clones. When will gamers realise that the mainstream AAA world is not going to suddenly change course becuase a few forum goers whinge, I don't buy mainstream music and cry because its not as avant garde as Autechre or The Mars Volta and thats what gamers do all the time.

     

    @Mindtrigger. @Snarlingwolf.

     

    I expanded on what I meant.

    Mindtrigger, you shouldn't post when you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You just tried to make the comparison that because a SANDBOX is drastically different from a THEMEPARK game that his point was false.

    Seriously, think before posting please.

    The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
    Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  • grimalgrimal Stamford, CTPosts: 2,874Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Cable companies are struggling with constant customer loss that can't be replaced. This is because the TV is so bad and it has chased away many of that viewers it once had.
    The reason companies put reality TV out is not because it gets record breaking viewers. They put it out because it is the cheapest stuff to make so it doesn't need as many viewers to be successful the way expensive dramas do.
    Those are the true facts.

     

    The movie industry is also at one of its lowest profitability levels in all of history. This is because many people feel the majority of the movies coming out are crap. 

    Basically your argument is missing out on all of the actual facts. Television, movies and gaming markets (most notably MMOs) are having trouble. Part of it is the economy, part of it is because of the crap products being put out there.

     

    Umm you toss out a lot of statements as fact here.  I'd like to see the sources for all these "facts."

    Google or follow the news once in a while, the information is out there.

    Here's an excerpt from Televsion subscriber losses, I'll let you find your own articles and research:

     

    But this quarter's losses were stark for DirecTV, which lost customers for the first time ever and for Time Warner, who lost customers for the tenth straight quarter and lost more than analysts expected. Comcast's loss of 169,000 customers was actually an improvement over previous quarters.

     

    You can also find reports on how networks changed their programming due to loss of profitability margins on high end shows. You'll find information on how CBS decided to not follow that trend and keep putting out high cost higher quality shows. It is the most watched network on televsion as an added emphasis on how people do want good television and not reality TV.

     

    Here is an excerpt about movie problems, again I'll let you find your own sources:

     

    I hope you’re sitting down, because I have some difficult news to share: Almost everyone hates going to the movies. After cinema attendance hit at 16-year low last year, a new study has found that only 3% of U.S. consumers consider moviegoing “a frequent source of entertainment.” Is this news as bad as it seems? And if so, what can be done about it?

    Maybe the most depressing thing about the survey in question is that it’s really easy to imagine why movies have fallen so dramatically in popularity (Two years ago, 28% of people rated moviegoing as a frequent source of entertainment, to give you an idea of just how sharp the decline is). After all, going to the movies is both expensive and, often, not that fun of an experience; bad crowds, bad seats and bad movies can all end up ruining the night out. When you start to think about all of the variables that can make moviegoing a less than optimal way to spend your time, suddenly alternative plans become much more attractive.

     

    Hopefully with all of the layoffs, company shut downs, game shut downs etc. I don't really have to go get you excerpts about how the MMO genre isn't doing well, isn't meeting expectations, and how some companies have said there is no future in MMOs and do not want to put any money into developing new ones.

    Ok, you have shown me there is a decline; that was never a point I had an issue with.  But the reasons for the decline you stated as fact, I am still waiting for the evidence behind that.

    You're that guy, ok. You are correct. People love all television, especially reality television, that they have cancelled their service in order to stop themselves from watching to much TV. It was just too good and they couldn't control themselves.

     

    People went to the movies less and less because they decided movies were too good and made the rest of the world seem so sad and pathetic that they forced themselves to stop going.  The 13 years also stops any economic downturn reasoning so what else could it be? Clearly it is that movies are too good.

     

    Several game studios have been shut and more downsized along with games shut down permanently because, well they were too good and it wasn't fair to the competition.

     

    You are correct. The entertianment industry is making products that are just SO GOOD, that people have to force themselves to use them less. It is definetly, in no way shape or form, that the products are subpar and people are fed up. Never accept logical lines of thought as those are the seeds of the devil.

    That guy?  I am that guy because I question your "facts"?

    You are the person who made those grandoise claims for the reasons TV and film tickets are down.  I've asked you to cite sources and you have danced around the issue.

    Unless you are going to provide evidence for your "facts", don't call them facts.

    I'd take your own advice in your last line there.

  • ChrisReitzChrisReitz Newport, KYPosts: 115Member

    If you dont like a mmorpg and you notice that a hand full of people dont like it and keep making the same threads over and over again. Im sure you will get the hint soon enough and ill help you out with it. If you dont like the game. Then by all means dont play it. Im sure the majority of people are tired of most of you saying im bored... ( I would be bored too if i had over 200 hours in a few weeks on a new game... Go outside by all means actually get a job)

     

    I dont like the pvp ( Maybe you should not play the pvp then.. Im sure the 85 percent of people who do like it will play it for you... Waste of space anyway where someone else could get on the server...)

     

    I made it to 80 I dont have anything to do other then twiddle my thumbs and look at the screen. (I'm sure you havent got 100 percent in every area. Maxed all of your crafts. Got all of your achievements and got that cool dungeon looking armor. Just cause you beat the story line doesnt mean the game is over.)

     

    They nerfed my fav dungeon and gave it less reward cause I was speed cleaning it and making 5 gold a hour or more... They actually made it harder.. (boo hoo? Im sure the makers didnt want you to do that they are the gods I will say this again cause I like saying it. If you cant adapt to it then leave. We wont miss you and we will forget about you.)

     

    The dungeons are to hard. (Maybe move around more use diff skills attack the same target as everyone else. Other people are doing it im sure you can too.)

     

     

     

    I got banned cause I made a rude name and I also got banned cause I was buying and saleing stuff higher on the marketplace or farming a area.. (maybe some of you did and that sucks but most of you were doing other things you werent suppose to and your name was cruel. It probably offended someone you should have gotten banned for it. Dont remember M for mature infront of the page anywhere lol heh)

     

    I crash alot when Im around people in pvp 15 mins into the game ( Well maybe you should turn down your settings or maybe get a new pc. That hamster in the middle of your pc is getting tired and dying)

     

     

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,602Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by MindTrigger

    Originally posted by GeezerGamer OP's mad because GW2 didn't live up to the hype
    Nothing is living up to anyone's hype anymore.  Actually GW2 is *the best* of the current themeparks in my opinion.  It's not a game changer though, and they will find themselves in the same situation as all the other themeparks on the market.  Running to WoW or another themepark isn't going to solve the problem.

    We had all hoped GW2 would be more, but I think it has become just about all any pure themepark can be and they did a great job doing it.  What else can be done to a themepark?  You can argue they should have stuck with the trinity, or gone to some four-class system, but the rest of the game is what it is unless they start adding sandbox features.

    Show me an upcoming themepark game that is a vast improvement over GW2 or anything before it.  They all function basically the same and people are bored with it.


    The reason people are bored with Theme parks is because they (games not players) move to fast.

    For example Back in TBC, I had started the long quest chain that took me through dungeons and culminated in a 5 man group quest boss kill.
    The reward was Sunfury Leggards.
    Those legs served me well into the game and I didn't replace them for quite some time.
    They were not epic and in fact were quested blues.

    The quest chain was for the most part pretty epic and well worth doing. Such a chain was pointless Come Wrath. Why do such a chain. Since it included dungeons anyway, why not just speed grind a few more dungeons until an epic set drops or until I can earn enough badges to buy a tiered set?

    This is only one example where we are pushed through too fast. WTF do you think is gonna happen? Yeah we are going to burn through it. But who's fault is that? People bitch about TBC having too much of a grind, but it also made us slow down and consume the content at a pace.

    And while I see people saying you have to slow down and take GW2 at a pace, the mechanics of the game say the opposite. Otherwise, we'd have never seen level 80s while the game was still in head start. But that same advice can be given to WoW or Rift or any MMO. "You leveled too fast, you did it wrong and short changed yourself"

    It's not US, the players, that are to blame here.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Calerxes
    It urks me when people whinge that something isn't what they want but do not have the intelligence to look outside the mainstream world to see if it exists there they think but whinging enough a company will throw 100 million at a My Little Pony sandbox FFA PvP game. I would also argue that tradition RPG's in the past were always niche compared to some of the subgenres especially ARPG's like the behemoth Diablo and therefore never really in the AAA world. 
    Now I see where you're coming from. And yes, MMO players do this quite often, myself included. I guess some MMO players wish they were "niche" again :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • VyntVynt Glendale, CAPosts: 632Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Cable companies are struggling with constant customer loss that can't be replaced. This is because the TV is so bad and it has chased away many of that viewers it once had.
    The reason companies put reality TV out is not because it gets record breaking viewers. They put it out because it is the cheapest stuff to make so it doesn't need as many viewers to be successful the way expensive dramas do.
    Those are the true facts.

     

    The movie industry is also at one of its lowest profitability levels in all of history. This is because many people feel the majority of the movies coming out are crap. 

    Basically your argument is missing out on all of the actual facts. Television, movies and gaming markets (most notably MMOs) are having trouble. Part of it is the economy, part of it is because of the crap products being put out there.

     

    Umm you toss out a lot of statements as fact here.  I'd like to see the sources for all these "facts."

    Google or follow the news once in a while, the information is out there.

    Here's an excerpt from Televsion subscriber losses, I'll let you find your own articles and research:

     

    But this quarter's losses were stark for DirecTV, which lost customers for the first time ever and for Time Warner, who lost customers for the tenth straight quarter and lost more than analysts expected. Comcast's loss of 169,000 customers was actually an improvement over previous quarters.

     

    You can also find reports on how networks changed their programming due to loss of profitability margins on high end shows. You'll find information on how CBS decided to not follow that trend and keep putting out high cost higher quality shows. It is the most watched network on televsion as an added emphasis on how people do want good television and not reality TV.

     

    Here is an excerpt about movie problems, again I'll let you find your own sources:

     

    I hope you’re sitting down, because I have some difficult news to share: Almost everyone hates going to the movies. After cinema attendance hit at 16-year low last year, a new study has found that only 3% of U.S. consumers consider moviegoing “a frequent source of entertainment.” Is this news as bad as it seems? And if so, what can be done about it?

    Maybe the most depressing thing about the survey in question is that it’s really easy to imagine why movies have fallen so dramatically in popularity (Two years ago, 28% of people rated moviegoing as a frequent source of entertainment, to give you an idea of just how sharp the decline is). After all, going to the movies is both expensive and, often, not that fun of an experience; bad crowds, bad seats and bad movies can all end up ruining the night out. When you start to think about all of the variables that can make moviegoing a less than optimal way to spend your time, suddenly alternative plans become much more attractive.

     

    Hopefully with all of the layoffs, company shut downs, game shut downs etc. I don't really have to go get you excerpts about how the MMO genre isn't doing well, isn't meeting expectations, and how some companies have said there is no future in MMOs and do not want to put any money into developing new ones.

    Ok, you have shown me there is a decline; that was never a point I had an issue with.  But the reasons for the decline you stated as fact, I am still waiting for the evidence behind that.

    You're that guy, ok. You are correct. People love all television, especially reality television, that they have cancelled their service in order to stop themselves from watching to much TV. It was just too good and they couldn't control themselves.

     

    People went to the movies less and less because they decided movies were too good and made the rest of the world seem so sad and pathetic that they forced themselves to stop going.  The 13 years also stops any economic downturn reasoning so what else could it be? Clearly it is that movies are too good.

     

    Several game studios have been shut and more downsized along with games shut down permanently because, well they were too good and it wasn't fair to the competition.

     

    You are correct. The entertianment industry is making products that are just SO GOOD, that people have to force themselves to use them less. It is definetly, in no way shape or form, that the products are subpar and people are fed up. Never accept logical lines of thought as those are the seeds of the devil.

    That guy?  I am that guy because I question your "facts"?

    You are the person who made those grandoise claims for the reasons TV and film tickets are down.  I've asked you to cite sources and you have danced around the issue.

    Unless you are going to provide evidence for your "facts", don't call them facts.

    I'd take your own advice in your last line there.

    I think you failed to see his correlation. When the majority of television were dramas and comedies, ratings were high. Then reality tv got popular. More reality shows were put out, less dramas and comedies, ratings drastically went down. The channels that kept dramas and comedies in place of the new cheaper poorer reality shows had MUCH better ratings than all the rest. Poorer ratings due to reality tv caused people to unsubscribe. That is all fact. If the majority of tv that became reality shows was so great, people would not be leaving in droves.

    As far as movies, that is an even easier correlation to see. People don't pay to watch crap. Well they do, but they will spend less to watch it. When better movies were coming out, people paid and saw them. Movie revenue has been decreasing year after year because... the majority of movies have been crap! Sure there are still good ones and they make a lot of money because people are desperate for a quality movie.

  • shavashava Somerville, MAPosts: 282Member Uncommon

    Oddly, I made more or less this flame on The Escapist last night.

     

    http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.388694-Star-Wars-The-Old-Republic-Begins-Cutting-Servers#15568999

    In part I said:

     

    It's pandering like this that is killing the game industry. The rabid fans just circle like a pool of piranha, buy a game, tear it to bloody tatters comparing self-involved notes, and then go to the next game. But at the same time, they want brilliant AAA next gen graphics and design that cost millions, in a hit driven industry, and they won't pay past buying the box, because they hold every title in contempt -- it's the fashion that the press encourages and whips up.

    While a majority of gamers who don't participate in online forums would probably want to play the game and enjoy it, the money men see the bloody shreds, panic, see mass migrations, and shut things down. The more cautious introverted players have learned not even to buy a game for six months.

    Well, the industry can't afford it forever. Good luck to you. I'm pretty much retired at this point, and no one is going to fire me for saying it, but the fans are killing the games because they would rather find fault, and the producers are killing the games because they will panic and pull out because they don't understand the business or the fans, and the devs kill the games because they think they are there to design games and don't have to learn the business and legal bits to educate the fans or the producers to create an environment that will actually allow them to give you games you will actually enjoy.

    In a few years, there's going to be nothing but little dinky indy games on your mobiles, Zynga, EA, and the F2P Asian mills, and every one of them is going to be using neuromarketing to nickel and dime you to death. And all you will be doing is jumping one F2P game to the next paying to win to get to end game, carrying guilds with you, if you have money -- and grinding little commercially sponsored f2p games with friends in one place if you don't. It'll look a lot like Cory Doctorow's FTW. The art and story will be incidental if present. Something the marketing people will throw in as a competitive edge. Window dressing.

    Emo idiots. And you will probably all dismiss me as an old fart with no sense of humor. But you remember this in a few years. Hell, you won't. You can't remember past the next "ooo shiny."

    We're freaking doomed.

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