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  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by Xasapis
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    ...

     

     

     

    That's a good point and it can be solved by lock-outs or just nerfing the token gains to a lower token/minute ratio. I would prefer those solutions over the current one.

    Lock outs are terrible (imo). They prevent you from helping others, they prevent people from running dungeons just for the gameplay element. DR or reward caps allow you to play to your hearts content whilst limiting reward gain.

     

    Lower token per minute ratio is obviously viable though and would work if tailored correctly.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • XasapisXasapis VolosPosts: 5,561Member Uncommon

    The token per path can be adjusted to whatever Anet seems fair. As it is right now, all paths reward the same, so why you as a casual would pick the longest path more than once (ie out of curiocity), when you can pick the shortest, get the rewards and do something else with the remaining of your time? More so for the more hardcore/persistent crowd.

     

    Don't like the 20 tokens? Make them 10 per 20mins. The issue here is the freedom to choose the path that suits you best and be rewarded for your effort. It also doesn't punish you for playing the game, which is again the case here.

     

    I'm sure I'm a retard as far as game design is concerned, but I think I like the system I described better than the one trying to implement. It feels less punishing, offers a fairer reward for effort ratio and it doesn't seem like they are trying to shove the cash shop down our throats.

     

  • VolgoreVolgore Posts: 2,202Member Uncommon

    I can't believe some people still think that this move is against professional farmers or bots and even defend it.

    It's rather obvious that the anti-farm code has NCSoft written allover it and got in to drive players to the cash shop to rake in more money, as 2 mio box sales and it's profit may very well be below what NCSoft expected. If the game had 3.5+ mio initial sales, we'd never have seen this piece of code.

    There are botters and gold spammers left and right, flooding people's mail inbox and occupying the chat and nothing gets done about them -if ANet would be going against pro-farmers and bots, it would be easier to start here instead of offending your playerbase with an antifarm-code in a game that bring so much grind that some korean companies could learn another lesson about how it gets done.

    The game is ridden with bugs and unplayable to a major chunk of players due to 5sec ability-lag/disconnects since release -  and ANet patches farming on the fly?

    Again, the antifarm-code has nothing to do with gold-sellers or bots.

    image
  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Originally posted by sr7olsniper
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by sr7olsniper
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by Xasapis
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    ...

     

     

     

     

    Again that is a better solution than the curretn one. It is all a motter of perspective same issue with FF14. IF you reduce the takens toa fix ration people wont complain. however if you do DR people will take it as punishment, rightfuly so, and complain. 

    It isn't a solution at all, unless a cap/reduction in tokens per minute is added. Both of which reduce the gains a speed run will get anyway.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,800Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by sr7olsniper
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by Xasapis
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    ...

    Please reiterate the token suggestion again.

    Allow me to repeat my post:

    <div cfbody"="">

    Or simply reward the harder paths with more rewards:

    • Path A takes 20mins? Give 20 tokens total
    • Path B takes 40mins? Give 40 tokens
    • Path C takes 2 hours? Give 120 tokens
    That way you'd have a choice, do I do the easiest path until I get sick of it or just go for the others as well, knowing it will take more time but it'll be worth it?

    They wouldn't even need to adjust the difficulty between the paths. They'd only need to adjust the challenge vs reward ratio.

    If somebody is taking advantage of a bugged mob or mobs are not behaving as intended (please fix the underwater mobs constantly resetting), then I see no problem with that. Unfortunately for us, Anet didn't put the diminishing returns because there were bugs, the bugs will eventually get ironed out. They put the roadblocks because people were getting too much gold to keep the gem store relevant.

    The sliding scale looks good, but the problem is that people are getting tokens too quickly (as far as ANET are concerned). If people can get 20 tokens in 20 mins and do that all day long, then that will still seem excessive. Just having different rewards for different paths does not alter that.

     

     

    It actually Does. If you see it this way, you run 2 dungones 20 minutes each for 40 tokens total or 1 dungeon that takes 40 mins for 40 tokens. At the end of the day it is the same winnings per time ration but the player has the choice to decide how they want to play the game. Ultimetaly the earnings will be the same no matter what in a given amount of time but the players has freedom to choose whatever fits their playstyle

    No choice.

    People will take the short/easiest  path for obvious reasons.

    Locks are even worse - it means I cant go healp a guildie because the content is just locked.

    The rewards are ok for 1 run, what isn't ok is to do the same run multiple times ignoring the other 2 paths.

    Now people have the choice of doing the same path at a lower reward rate, do another path at full rate without being penalised for not doing the easiest path or do something else, either in game or outside it.

    People are pissed because their loot/hour is diminished.

    Having just 1 most efficient way to do something makes a shallow game - there should be several ways of achieving the same thing.

     

     

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • lifeordinarylifeordinary AgadirPosts: 646Member
    Bunny hopper i don't know why you are defending this so frivolusly. I mean even a dev from Anet wouldn't spend that much time and effort into defending this and it is their sweat and blood. Don you think it is their responsibility to communicate with players more and not yours? although i do appreciate your effort but this is really pointless.
  • XasapisXasapis VolosPosts: 5,561Member Uncommon
    As long as your first run is less than 30 mins and the total is less than an hour, the DR hits you, regardless of what you choose to do. Please, reread what the developer posted about the dungeon changes. It's not about picking a specific path in a specific dungeon, it's about doing a fast run and then doing any run on any dungeon and still get penalised.
  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,934Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Volgore

    I can't believe some people still think that this move is against professional farmers or bots and even defend it.

    It's rather obvious that the anti-farm code has NCSoft written allover it and got in to drive players to the cash shop to rake in more money, as 2 mio box sales and it's profit may very well be below what NCSoft expected. If the game had 3.5+ mio initial sales, we'd never have seen this piece of code.

    There are botters and gold spammers left and right, flooding people's mail inbox and occupying the chat and nothing gets done about them -if ANet would be going against pro-farmers and bots, it would be easier to start here instead of offending your playerbase with an antifarm-code in a game that bring so much grind that some korean companies could learn another lesson about how it gets done.

    The game is ridden with bugs and unplayable to a major chunk of players due to 5sec ability-lag/disconnects since release -  and ANet patches farming on the fly?

    Again, the antifarm-code has nothing to do with gold-sellers or bots.

    It is true but almost all MMOs have anti farming stuff in them. Why do they otherwise timelock dungeons and raids in almost all MMOs?

    But I agree that the anti farming thing is useless, farmers will just have a few spots they circle between anyways. It will just annoy regular players without hurt the farmers much. Besides, people selling gold steals accounts nowadays, this might have made sense in Wow 5 years ago but not today. 

    The dungeon thing is different, People wouldnt have whined if all dungeons had a lockdown after you run them from launch. I defend that part, and not only because most MMOs have something like it but usually tougher, but also because I see little point in running the same dungeon 5 times or more in a row. The sheer boredom of it risk making you burn out.

  • RaekonRaekon AugsburgPosts: 553Member
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
     

    ANET did punish speed runners - 3 different changes to all dungeons

    the part i highlighted in yello affects everyone no matter how many different paths you take

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/365276/ANET-commentary-on-patched-dungeons.html

    Let me clarify the change a bit since not everyone understands it.

    If you run the exact same chain twice in a row you will have your rewards cut. This means you can bounce back and forth between 2 different chains, even in the same dungeon without ever hitting this change. This change is made to encourage people to try different chains.


    If you speed clear dungeons at a rate of more than 2/ hour, and continue to do that for some time your rewards will slowly begin to degrade. It doesn't kick in after running a single dungeon and it doesn't immediately zero out rewards.

    Finally we reduced the value of repeating the story mode, because they are built to be easier and we want to encourage those repeating dungeons to run explore mode.

    If people are running dungeons at that rate, they are doing it for loot reasons. They are getting rewarded at a rate that ANET clearly did not intend. Ergo the possible peak return rate has been changed.

    I don't understand. Players are not getting any stastical advantage from the gear. No matter what source you use, you get armor of almsot identical stats other than tier 3 legendary gear.

    So why is it a problem if players want to grind dungeons for gear which is mostly for looks? i would understand that Anet is scared that people would consume content too soon and stop paying monthly sub but that is not how the game was designed now was it?

    If anything these changes go against everything that Anet has been saying regarding how they want players to just play and have fun in GW2.

    So i am sorry but i can not digest this reasoning.

    You don't get only tokens for armour or weapons, you are also getting XP, various loot (white, blue, green, yellow ones) and gold at the end.

    Some people even started only running the same dungeon to level up very fast and hit 80 alone by repeating them while looting stuff without touching anything else in the game anymore.

    Such people would fill up the market with tons of stuff thats not soulbound or in case of goldsellers, they would make tons of gold over and over even if it would mean selling everything they looted to a npc merchant so they can have gold to sell or the rare items in the TP additionaly so they can mess up the other players economy and get to sell gold to potential customers.

    In many mmos you can run some if not all dungeons only once per day so this restriction isn't as bad as it looks since you can switch between 2 - 3 paths or dungeons before you go back to redo the previous one.

    The restriction of the rewards also doesn't apply if you need more than 30minutes per dungeon (which is mostly the case anyway) but rather does when you speed rush as already stated which means under 30 minutes rush per path.

    The funny thing is that people were complaining about how "boring" it is to have only 4 paths in a dungeon (some are having 5 or 6) that one needs to run several times if they want to get a armor set through dungeon tokens and now all of sudden they are complaining that they are not able to run the same one path 24/7. -_-

    So it's obvious that no matter what they would do, people will still complain anyway cause like in real life situations, you can never please everyone no matter what you do and how you do it.

     

     

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,800Member Uncommon

    Shouldn't harder stuff have better rewards?

    Is there a difference in boosting rewards for the harder stuff or nerf the rewards for the easier stuff?

    The net gain is the same - harder stuff become more rewarding in comparision to easier stuff.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Originally posted by Xasapis

    The token per path can be adjusted to whatever Anet seems fair. As it is right now, all paths reward the same, so why you as a casual would pick the longest path more than once (ie out of curiocity), when you can pick the shortest, get the rewards and do something else with the remaining of your time? More so for the more hardcore/persistent crowd.

     

    Don't like the 20 tokens? Make them 10 per 20mins. The issue here is the freedom to choose the path that suits you best and be rewarded for your effort. It also doesn't punish you for playing the game, which is again the case here.

     

    I'm sure I'm a retard as far as game design is concerned, but I think I like the system I described better than the one trying to implement. It feels less punishing, offers a fairer reward for effort ratio and it doesn't seem like they are trying to shove the cash shop down our throats.

     

    All paths rewarding the same is retarded. Your idea that longer paths give a same per minute reward rate is a good one.

     

    BUT (and you seem clear on this) without tailoring the reward rate or adding a cap/DR, then it does not solve the main issue which seems to be reward return within a short period of time. So you are improving the system, but not solving the problem unless you reduce the rewards one way or another anyway.

     

     

     

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • XasapisXasapis VolosPosts: 5,561Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loke666
    ...

    It is true but almost all MMOs have anti farming stuff in them. Why do they otherwise timelock dungeons and raids in almost all MMOs?

    But I agree that the anti farming thing is useless, farmers will just have a few spots they circle between anyways. It will just annoy regular players without hurt the farmers much. Besides, people selling gold steals accounts nowadays, this might have made sense in Wow 5 years ago but not today. 

    The dungeon thing is different, People wouldnt have whined if all dungeons had a lockdown after you run them from launch. I defend that part, and not only because most MMOs have something like it but usually tougher, but also because I see little point in running the same dungeon 5 times or more in a row. The sheer boredom of it risk making you burn out.

    The game is designed in such a way that you need hundred of runs to collect tokens to get the armor looks that you prefer. Once you decide that you want that specific look, it stops being a matter of choice, there is no other way to acquire those armor templates.

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Virginia, VAPosts: 2,131Member
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by Xasapis
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    ...

     

     

     

    That's a good point and it can be solved by lock-outs or just nerfing the token gains to a lower token/minute ratio. I would prefer those solutions over the current one.

    Lock outs are terrible (imo). They prevent you from helping others, they prevent people from running dungeons just for the gameplay element. DR or reward caps allow you to play to your hearts content whilst limiting reward gain.

     

    Lower token per minute ratio is obviously viable though and would work if tailored correctly.

    Another alternative would be that your X first runs per day or week  of the dungeon give full rewards, but rest of the runs give 0 rewards to the individual player. That way you can still do the dungeon and help other players, you just wouldn't get any rewards for it, but your friends would, given that they have not done not "enough" runs that day or week.

     

    That solution would let a person choose when they want to do their "full reward" runs and not punish them if they want to do all them during one go. 

     

     

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Bunny hopper i don't know why you are defending this so frivolusly. I mean even a dev from Anet wouldn't spend that much time and effort into defending this and it is their sweat and blood. Don you think it is their responsibility to communicate with players more and not yours? although i do appreciate your effort but this is really pointless.

    I'm posting on a gaming forum so I know it's pointless :p

     

    I'm not defending it vigorously, just trying to reply to a few people who have responded to my post/s. When you are trying to respond to three or more responses it tends to look a bit chaotic.

     

    I'm certainly no fanboi so I hope that is not the implication.

     

     

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,586Member Uncommon

    Those of you who've been hailing this new B2P revenue model as the future, and sub games were ripping customers off. Think about this for a second.

    You have all been looking at it from the wrong perspective. Once you consider the Box fee as the entry fee, Then after 60 bucks, you have to wipe the slate clean for each player. From then on, you are left with 2 types of players. Gem buyers and freeloaders. Almost without exception, this forum has adopted the freeloader position and tossed the buyer's perspective in the trash and dismissed it as irrelevant.

    Well, guess who did NOT dismiss that perspective as irrelevant? (Hint: Arenanet)

    They must make the overall game experience better for gem buyers then freeloaders or there is no reason to buy gems.

  • ChrisReitzChrisReitz Newport, KYPosts: 115Member
    I've done all of that and I didnt get banned I think you are leaving something out that you did to get banned. You just named off all of population of guild wars 2 lol heh...
  • XasapisXasapis VolosPosts: 5,561Member Uncommon

    Btw, personally I didn't go after those armor sets, because I found dungeons to be a mess and not very fun to play. I rather did as many DE as I could participate and spent too much time in WvW to collect the 250.000 karma needed to get a karma set of my liking.

    I ended up pissed of course when I put the guld tabbart template on the chest piece and the plate armor turned into a generic scale armor, which means I need to farm yet another 42.000 karma for nothing.

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by Xasapis
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    ...

     

     

     

     

    Another alternative would be that your X first runs per day or week  of the dungeon give full rewards, but rest of the runs give 0 rewards to the individual player. That way you can still do the dungeon and help other players, you just wouldn't get any rewards for it, but your friends would, given that they have not done not "enough" runs that day or week.

     

    That solution would let a person choose when they want to do their "full reward" runs and not punish them if they want to do all them during one go. 

     

     

    Perfectly fine as far as I can see. Still think you will get some crying about not being able to zerg run rewards 24/7 mind you.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • ChrisReitzChrisReitz Newport, KYPosts: 115Member
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    Those of you who've been hailing this new B2P revenue model as the future, and sub games were ripping customers off. Think about this for a second.

    You have all been looking at it from the wrong perspective. Once you consider the Box fee as the entry fee, Then after 60 bucks, you have to wipe the slate clean for each player. From then on, you are left with 2 types of players. Gem buyers and freeloaders. Almost without exception, this forum has adopted the freeloader position and tossed the buyer's perspective in the trash and dismissed it as irrelevant.

    Well, guess who did NOT dismiss that perspective as irrelevant? (Hint: Arenanet)

    They must make the overall game experience better for gem buyers then freeloaders or there is no reason to buy gems.

     

    I have a feeling you never played guild wars 1 the gem store isnt a big deal to arena net. Its their for people who want just alittle help with what they are doing. It doesnt effect the game in anyway it isnt a p2w or p2p mmorpg. Free loader you are funny ~pokes your nose~ beep

  • XasapisXasapis VolosPosts: 5,561Member Uncommon
    Well, GW1 was a lobby game with a lot less players. This one is a full mmorpg with interconnected servers and a universal chat server and auction house. It's like comparing the cost to run Diablo III to the cost to run WoW, apple with oranges.
  • sr7olsnipersr7olsniper Alhambra, CAPosts: 206Member
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by Xasapis
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    ...

     

     

     

     

    Another alternative would be that your X first runs per day or week  of the dungeon give full rewards, but rest of the runs give 0 rewards to the individual player. That way you can still do the dungeon and help other players, you just wouldn't get any rewards for it, but your friends would, given that they have not done not "enough" runs that day or week.

     

    That solution would let a person choose when they want to do their "full reward" runs and not punish them if they want to do all them during one go. 

     

     

    Perfectly fine as far as I can see. Still think you will get some crying about not being able to zerg run rewards 24/7 mind you.

    That is basically a Weekly cap. Wow does this pretty good and it has worked so far. You can do yoru 1k valor points per week and then you can keep doing dungeons if you like but you wont get the points, So you can do them if you do desire for funzzies or to help friends. Anythig is better than what tehy have implemented at this point

    At least with a sub game they know that people won't tolerate bullshit and leave. With anet we have no recourse but to buy our own lube so our assholes don't get too stretched out from getting bent over a table at Anets will. - Hrimnir

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,586Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by ChrisReitz

    Originally posted by GeezerGamer Those of you who've been hailing this new B2P revenue model as the future, and sub games were ripping customers off. Think about this for a second. You have all been looking at it from the wrong perspective. Once you consider the Box fee as the entry fee, Then after 60 bucks, you have to wipe the slate clean for each player. From then on, you are left with 2 types of players. Gem buyers and freeloaders. Almost without exception, this forum has adopted the freeloader position and tossed the buyer's perspective in the trash and dismissed it as irrelevant. Well, guess who did NOT dismiss that perspective as irrelevant? (Hint: Arenanet) They must make the overall game experience better for gem buyers then freeloaders or there is no reason to buy gems.  
    I have a feeling you never played guild wars 1 the gem store isnt a big deal to arena net. Its their for people who want just alittle help with what they are doing. It doesnt effect the game in anyway it isnt a p2w or p2p mmorpg. Free loader you are funny ~pokes your nose~ beep

    GW1 is not GW2
    If they had the same expectations, they'd have implemented the same Cash Shop

    For the record, I never said P2W. But it's starting to look a bit more like P2P in disguise.

  • ChrisReitzChrisReitz Newport, KYPosts: 115Member
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

     


    Originally posted by ChrisReitz

    Originally posted by GeezerGamer Those of you who've been hailing this new B2P revenue model as the future, and sub games were ripping customers off. Think about this for a second. You have all been looking at it from the wrong perspective. Once you consider the Box fee as the entry fee, Then after 60 bucks, you have to wipe the slate clean for each player. From then on, you are left with 2 types of players. Gem buyers and freeloaders. Almost without exception, this forum has adopted the freeloader position and tossed the buyer's perspective in the trash and dismissed it as irrelevant. Well, guess who did NOT dismiss that perspective as irrelevant? (Hint: Arenanet) They must make the overall game experience better for gem buyers then freeloaders or there is no reason to buy gems.  
    I have a feeling you never played guild wars 1 the gem store isnt a big deal to arena net. Its their for people who want just alittle help with what they are doing. It doesnt effect the game in anyway it isnt a p2w or p2p mmorpg. Free loader you are funny ~pokes your nose~ beep

     

    GW1 is not GW2
    If they had the same expectations, they'd have implemented the same Cash Shop

    Maybe you should go play runes of magic or Allods online. If Guild wars 2 wanted most of their encome from the cash shop. They would have added stones like that to their shop. BUT instead you get xp armor stuff to make crafting  easier and armor and so on. Doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure this out... lol heh... They already sold over 2 million copies at 60 dollars a head.

  • sr7olsnipersr7olsniper Alhambra, CAPosts: 206Member
    Originally posted by ChrisReitz
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

     


    Originally posted by ChrisReitz

    Originally posted by GeezerGamer Those of you who've been hailing this new B2P revenue model as the future, and sub games were ripping customers off. Think about this for a second. You have all been looking at it from the wrong perspective. Once you consider the Box fee as the entry fee, Then after 60 bucks, you have to wipe the slate clean for each player. From then on, you are left with 2 types of players. Gem buyers and freeloaders. Almost without exception, this forum has adopted the freeloader position and tossed the buyer's perspective in the trash and dismissed it as irrelevant. Well, guess who did NOT dismiss that perspective as irrelevant? (Hint: Arenanet) They must make the overall game experience better for gem buyers then freeloaders or there is no reason to buy gems.  
    I have a feeling you never played guild wars 1 the gem store isnt a big deal to arena net. Its their for people who want just alittle help with what they are doing. It doesnt effect the game in anyway it isnt a p2w or p2p mmorpg. Free loader you are funny ~pokes your nose~ beep

     

    GW1 is not GW2
    If they had the same expectations, they'd have implemented the same Cash Shop

    Maybe you should go play runes of magic or Allods online. If Guild wars 2 wanted most of their encome from the cash shop. They would have added stones like that to their shop. BUT instead you get xp armor stuff to make crafting  easier and armor and so on. Doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure this out... lol heh... They already sold over 2 million copies at 60 dollars a head.

    just read my sig

    At least with a sub game they know that people won't tolerate bullshit and leave. With anet we have no recourse but to buy our own lube so our assholes don't get too stretched out from getting bent over a table at Anets will. - Hrimnir

  • JackdogJackdog Charleston, SCPosts: 6,344Member
    How dare Arenanet protect the economy and not let gold/exp farmers do exactly as they wish. The nerve

    I miss DAoC

This discussion has been closed.