Originally posted by TruthXHurts I can't name a specific title, but some games actually label the classes as easy, medium, and hard. Why does everythign have to be balanced and fair. Nothing else in this world is. Why in the world should games be?
Well I guess they could start by labeling the ones here. Beyond that in those other games if you play said hard class to the best of your ability it should still be on par "power wise" as those easy and medium classes.
So far that case does not hold true in GW2. Playing the hard classes actually means playing the underpowered/gimped class in some situations.
We have already hit a point in the game where people are being flat out denied entry into dungeons because, players do not wish to carry them. Not because they are a bad player mind you, but because their class is a liablity to the success of their dungeon run.
That is a trash WoW mentality, and part of the downfall of MMO's in general. These elitist prick teenagers need to be beaten by their parents. I used to play a Ranger on EQ1 so don't tell me about gimped classes.
-shrug- That might be true, but we both know it is not going away. Every class needs to bring "something" to the table. I'm not saying we all need to be the same, but no class needs to be in a state where it becomes unwanted.
No thanks I'm happy using my superior skill to survive in a hostile world. I don't want to mindlessly mash hotbuttons and breeze through content.
The rotations and the way attunements work will undoubtedly stay relatively the same. However, you can rest assured that there will be further adjustments made to this class and others. It plays different from BWE2 than it does now and will likely play differently a month or two from now. Anet has already stated that they are letting the meta game set in before they make adjustments and more and more players are hitting 80, getting exotics and giving feedback. To many people like to chalk things up and point fingers about unskilled players. Well when people start doing "math" and giving real metrics, solid feedback (if it be positive or negative) Anet listens quietly. People that played GW1 know this and know it well. They nerfed, buffed and renerfed things for years on that game. Ultimately it is unavoidable and if you think everything about balance in "a-ok" right now, good for you... Go back it up on the official forms with real data, because there are a mountain of players with similar experiences in pve and Spvp.
One thing needs to be made very clear if nothing else. Anet does care about balance. They hold tournaments in Spvp and this tournaments often carry with them rewards that include real life cash.
I don't participate in any form of arena pvp so balance is not that important to me.
That is fine, you are entitled to play how you want. The thing is there is not a seperate system for pve/wvw and the only difference with Spvp is you get instant gear. All of them use the same weapons, the same stats and the same skill systems. So like past games my friend, everything that do to adjust wvw/spvp is going to directly impact pve as well. It does say Guild Wars on the box and just like the first game.. PVP is a larger player here than it is with most MMO titles.
-shrug-
So why not balance everyone who enters the arena? Why not let the challenge of playing an underdog in PVE exist alongside the FPS bastard child arena combat? Why must the RPG aspect suffer to "balance" the classes?
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Seriously, this is nothing new. In all MMORPGs, old or new, some classes are easier to solo than others. And usually, the "tankish" classes are the best, closely followed by the pet classes when they have "tankish" pets.
It's kinda normal... if you are a warrior, wearing heavy armor and specced in defense, you will be able to take more damage that your fellow clothie.
^ just about every single MMO has this hell even TERA has a star rating next to the class when creating it telling you how easy it is to play.. it really is based on the individual though.. you can see the thread I made about this topic and how differn't peoples responses are on which class they feel is easy or hard.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Actually the game was pretty ballanced at release. But, it was only ballanced for top players in sPvP.
for average players leveling in PvE however its obvious that they perform much better on a straightforward class like warrior or ranger, then a more advanced class like Engineer or Elementalist.
This pollicy however makes people feel like the more advanced classes are not rewarded for their efforts, just wondering how anet will overcome this feeling.
I totally agree, after playing all the stated classes I have the same feeling. Overal however (Recently coming from AION.) The PVP ballance is pretty damn good.
So why not balance everyone who enters the arena? Why not let the challenge of playing an underdog in PVE exist alongside the FPS bastard child arena combat? Why must the RPG aspect suffer to "balance" the classes?
-cuts out all this heavy quoting-
Well first off you would have to let everyone know that up front. You would be treating it more like D&D at that point. You can suggest that all you want, but we both know that isn't going to fly here.
Seriously, this is nothing new. In all MMORPGs, old or new, some classes are easier to solo than others. And usually, the "tankish" classes are the best, closely followed by the pet classes when they have "tankish" pets.
It's kinda normal... if you are a warrior, wearing heavy armor and specced in defense, you will be able to take more damage that your fellow clothie.
From what I have seen everyone has ways to spec for damage dealing, taking more damage and support. However, as I have pointed out before some classes fill those roles and do a all around better job. Some can also be setup to deal huge damage and NOT have to give up their ability to avoid damage.. While others can not.
-shhhh don't say tank- I thought there was no trinity here!
-shhhh don't say tank- I thought there was no trinity here!
Pretty much why I said "tankish". Even with my warrior in Knight exotics and with a tactics/defense build, I can't just stand in the face of mobs and hope to survive if I don't move/dodge.
Yeah, I take more than my Elem or even my Ranger. But that's just normal to me. Different classes play differently, thankfully.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Actually the game was pretty ballanced at release. But, it was only ballanced for top players in sPvP.
for average players leveling in PvE however its obvious that they perform much better on a straightforward class like warrior or ranger, then a more advanced class like Engineer or Elementalist.
This pollicy however makes people feel like the more advanced classes are not rewarded for their efforts, just wondering how anet will overcome this feeling.
I agree, with warrior it's perfectly viable to only autoattack most mobs. It's slower, but it works. While on engineer if I dont use my stuff I will find my self quickly in a situation where I wouldnt want to be. However I'm not sure if that's a problem, as long as the classes are equal on the top tier situations.
Why, because some people are more advanced than others playing games, and there propably is demand for both easier and harder professions. I love my engineer, but sometimes I just want to play my warrior alt just to kick it in a completely laidback environment. Having said that, I find engineer to be better class when the crap really hits the fan if I have a good skill setup (disease thrower, elixir s + b-kit, and supply drop).
It's kinda upside down for PvE vs. PvP. In PvE I can handle harder situations with harder classes, but in sPvP I prefer the easier classes since I simply have more fun with them and I'm a lot more efficient, contributing towards my teams victory. I get 100 points more from single match on ranger or warrior compared to my engineer so yeah, love engineer on PvE but it feels like a fulltime job on sPvP to be efficient.
The problem with this is that player gets no warning when he starts playing. Tera had stars from 2 to 5 on class difficulty. 5 star class was not worse than 2 stars, it was simply harder to play, but actually could be more powerful when properly played to my knowledge. Why not something like this, green/yellow/red or something for class difficulty?
Necromancers remain completely underpowered. I'm seeing fewer and fewer necromancers the furhter i get into the game. Past level 30 all I'm seeing are Warriors, Rangers, Guardians, Mesmers, and Thieves are a little spotty. I think I've seen maybe THREE necromancers past lvl 30.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
Necromancers remain completely underpowered. I'm seeing fewer and fewer necromancers the furhter i get into the game. Past level 30 all I'm seeing are Warriors, Rangers, Guardians, Mesmers, and Thieves are a little spotty. I think I've seen maybe THREE necromancers past lvl 30.
Necros are insane when played correctly. And even more in PvP.
All a "learn to play" issue in my opinion - it's hard to adapt to GW2 when you've played WoW clones for 7+ years.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I'm pretty sure that lack of awareness and mobility kills most players in PVE. Players who just participated in a zerg DE, went full out AOE dps and barely got a scratch (not realising that others took most of the aggro for them). Then out on their own you need to res them because suddenly they do get the attention of mobs. Lot of players just mainly focus on killing mobs and not so much on staying alive when doing that.
I need to revive roflcopter warriors and with their 2handed swords and fire elementalists (who never switch element) all the time. Fortunately less so in higher lvl areas. There it is more of a mix. Probably because most by then learned to become more aware of their surroundings.
I play warrior and engi. I rarely die on any of those classes and that is mainly because I know when to get out imo. On engineer you sometimes just have to know when not to use turrets or grenades I guess
Necromancers remain completely underpowered. I'm seeing fewer and fewer necromancers the furhter i get into the game. Past level 30 all I'm seeing are Warriors, Rangers, Guardians, Mesmers, and Thieves are a little spotty. I think I've seen maybe THREE necromancers past lvl 30.
Necros are insane when played correctly. And even more in PvP.
All a "learn to play" issue in my opinion - it's hard to adapt to GW2 when you've played WoW clones for 7+ years.
Not just WoW, LoTRO/SWTOR/name the MMO. A few people in my guild had a hell of time trying to understand why if they just stood in one spot and mashed buttons they died. Lie I said in a earlier post I even strafe and kite ot move in and out on my guardian. Thief still has me bumfoozled on how to handle multiples but for me half the fun is figuring it out and finding the correct strategy/weapon
Now I see people talking about mobility and awareness. This stuff falls into the same category as some of my earlier statements.
How many ways to dodge do you have? The novice would say two (as much as endurance allows).
Others would factor in skills and utility that allow them to avoid hits. Things like blind and skills like blossom (jumps over the target). The thing is some classes can face off against a vet mob and be immune to damage from 100% to 0% while other classes are involved in some little game of kite and retreat.
Now in my personal opinion both sides of this coin are a bit lame. I think its hilariously funny that one class can just stand there and perma blind a vet mob. While the other is constantly kiting, stumbling into other mobs and generally having to use every single skill. I wish there was a bit of middle ground, but I don't want the middle ground to homogonize us all. I think Anet is capable of taking an iron to these wrinkles and the game will be better for it.
Necromancers remain completely underpowered. I'm seeing fewer and fewer necromancers the furhter i get into the game. Past level 30 all I'm seeing are Warriors, Rangers, Guardians, Mesmers, and Thieves are a little spotty. I think I've seen maybe THREE necromancers past lvl 30.
Necros are insane when played correctly. And even more in PvP.
All a "learn to play" issue in my opinion - it's hard to adapt to GW2 when you've played WoW clones for 7+ years.
Not just WoW, LoTRO/SWTOR/name the MMO. A few people in my guild had a hell of time trying to understand why if they just stood in one spot and mashed buttons they died. Lie I said in a earlier post I even strafe and kite ot move in and out on my guardian. Thief still has me bumfoozled on how to handle multiples but for me half the fun is figuring it out and finding the correct strategy/weapon
Exactly this. It was a problem for me on my guardian of all things. I kept dying but it was always my fault. Just needed to unlearn my wowisms.
In this game the MMO player needs to rethink their strategy, tehre is no one weapon or weapon combo that will fit everyone and when playing go into a FPS frame of mind
I think different player and different playstyles affect it a lot. I do a ton of circle and side strafing with my Elementalist and have him set up for conditional damage. I can tank a veteran and 3 or 4 adds as long as I am in the open. My memsmer is the same. I even circle strafe with my guardian just out of habit althoug it does not seem to be nescessary at least in the mid teen levels. Thief is a bit of a issue and stil getting the hang of him.
If you are having issues with a class try different weapons and builds. You can get a cheap respec in the tavern outside Divinity's Reach for your traits, no need to buy another book. I went from staff to DD, to scepter/dagger before my elementalist found his groove
A lot of my Elementalist issues revolve around dungeons, spvp and wvw. Anyone can play any class in pve and do resonablly well (I know all about the condition damage spec). Mobs are not as smart as players.. but it still stands that I can use another class and kill the same stuff in pve in less time with substatially less risk to myself. Heck I can use a thief to take vets from 100% to dead without ever having to move. Just use something like dagger/pistol and you can literally blind him every single time he tries to swing at you.
Beyond that.. I dare you to go spvp on that Elementalist and come back here with posative results (score cards and such). It just does not happen. I lvled my Elementalist from 1-80 and learned the ins and outs as best I could. Then spent days trying to make her viable in Spvp, I never once placed first and most of my score cards were between 80 and 150. I made my thief after a day of frustration and went to try Spvp at level two. My very first game I scored 250 and was first place over all. At this time, all classes are not created equally or even competitively for that matter.
As a fellow elementalist I agree, we have the lowest base hp in the game and our damage is garbage compared to the other classes, not to mention everyone does condition based damage a lot better then us i.e necros and burst damage(it gets awkward when guardians can out damage us). I recall in the beta having a ton of burst damage granted I built a glass canon only now we are more like pee shooters now in spvp, while we are ok in pve, other classes are a complete face roll while we have to throw everything we got in order to stay alive.( in orr at least)
As a fellow elementalist I agree, we have the lowest base hp in the game and our damage is garbage compared to the other classes, not to mention everyone does condition based damage a lot better then us i.e necros and burst damage(it gets awkward when guardians can out damage us). I recall in the beta having a ton of burst damage granted I built a glass canon only now we are more like pee shooters now in spvp, while we are ok in pve, other classes are a complete face roll while we have to throw everything we got in order to stay alive.( in orr at least)
Don't get me started on our terrible traits!
Earth and Air attunements are that bad, eh? Dang, I thought that's where most of the survivability was. See? I should roll an ele and figure this out for myself.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Untill the elementalist actually knows how to play... because then it evens out. and to have a chance to win the thief needs all his buttons. An elementalist is based on active defenses, so he ought to use them. The thief might actually never get close to the Ele.
As said, low level beings will have a much better time in sPvP on thief then on Ele. But the same low level beings keep complaining that their thives keep dying in PvE, go figure.
And if you think getting the most out of your elementalist is hard? Try the engineer, its even more complicated, if you want it all.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Untill the elementalist actually knows how to play... because then it evens out. and to have a chance to win the thief needs all his buttons. An elementalist is based on active defenses, so he ought to use them. The thief might actually never get close to the Ele.
As said, low level beings will have a much better time in sPvP on thief then on Ele. But the same low level beings keep complaining that their thives keep dying in PvE, go figure.
And if you think getting the most out of your elementalist is hard? Try the engineer, its even more complicated, if you want it all.
How do you want to explain the screenshot ? Alright I have never seen such a high crit so far in spvp but they exist like we all see.
5749 dmg from cloak and dagger + 18898 dmg from backstab
Originally posted by Volkon Having a blast with mesmers in PvE. I think people make the mistake of trying to keep their clones alive rather than treat them like the little portable effect bombs they are. There are some great traits you should (subjective) be selecting for your clones that have "when the clone is destroyed" tied to them.
heh my mesmer feels overpowered if anything LOL. That class is a kiters dream class. Damn mob (s) never knows where I am
If you haven't yet, grab the major trait that causes clones to apply cripple when destroyed. Good times, good times.
Survivability isn't an issue. Mesmers' problem is that they can't "tag" mobs as well as many other classes. They simply don't have many AoE skills. When a Warrior spins into a bunch of mobs, he tags all of them and gets to loot all of them. When a Mesmer's clone cripples some enemies, you don't get anything. Shatters are ok-ish for AoE, but they recharge too long, while some classes can spam their AoE skills all day long. iBerserker is unreliable, Staff #5 has a long recharge and that leaves us with MH sword #1 and #2, which are both great skills, but don't AoE that much.
My main character is a Mesmer and I have no problems in tough encounters, because our survivability is great and we have an enormous amount of tricks in our pockets. However, I can see that, if I played a Warrior, I'd be getting a lot more loot from crowded DEs.
Comments
So why not balance everyone who enters the arena? Why not let the challenge of playing an underdog in PVE exist alongside the FPS bastard child arena combat? Why must the RPG aspect suffer to "balance" the classes?
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
^ just about every single MMO has this hell even TERA has a star rating next to the class when creating it telling you how easy it is to play.. it really is based on the individual though.. you can see the thread I made about this topic and how differn't peoples responses are on which class they feel is easy or hard.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I totally agree, after playing all the stated classes I have the same feeling. Overal however (Recently coming from AION.) The PVP ballance is pretty damn good.
-cuts out all this heavy quoting-
Well first off you would have to let everyone know that up front. You would be treating it more like D&D at that point. You can suggest that all you want, but we both know that isn't going to fly here.
From what I have seen everyone has ways to spec for damage dealing, taking more damage and support. However, as I have pointed out before some classes fill those roles and do a all around better job. Some can also be setup to deal huge damage and NOT have to give up their ability to avoid damage.. While others can not.
-shhhh don't say tank- I thought there was no trinity here!
Pretty much why I said "tankish". Even with my warrior in Knight exotics and with a tactics/defense build, I can't just stand in the face of mobs and hope to survive if I don't move/dodge.
Yeah, I take more than my Elem or even my Ranger. But that's just normal to me. Different classes play differently, thankfully.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I agree, with warrior it's perfectly viable to only autoattack most mobs. It's slower, but it works. While on engineer if I dont use my stuff I will find my self quickly in a situation where I wouldnt want to be. However I'm not sure if that's a problem, as long as the classes are equal on the top tier situations.
Why, because some people are more advanced than others playing games, and there propably is demand for both easier and harder professions. I love my engineer, but sometimes I just want to play my warrior alt just to kick it in a completely laidback environment. Having said that, I find engineer to be better class when the crap really hits the fan if I have a good skill setup (disease thrower, elixir s + b-kit, and supply drop).
It's kinda upside down for PvE vs. PvP. In PvE I can handle harder situations with harder classes, but in sPvP I prefer the easier classes since I simply have more fun with them and I'm a lot more efficient, contributing towards my teams victory. I get 100 points more from single match on ranger or warrior compared to my engineer so yeah, love engineer on PvE but it feels like a fulltime job on sPvP to be efficient.
The problem with this is that player gets no warning when he starts playing. Tera had stars from 2 to 5 on class difficulty. 5 star class was not worse than 2 stars, it was simply harder to play, but actually could be more powerful when properly played to my knowledge. Why not something like this, green/yellow/red or something for class difficulty?
Necromancers remain completely underpowered. I'm seeing fewer and fewer necromancers the furhter i get into the game. Past level 30 all I'm seeing are Warriors, Rangers, Guardians, Mesmers, and Thieves are a little spotty. I think I've seen maybe THREE necromancers past lvl 30.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
Necros are insane when played correctly. And even more in PvP.
All a "learn to play" issue in my opinion - it's hard to adapt to GW2 when you've played WoW clones for 7+ years.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I'm pretty sure that lack of awareness and mobility kills most players in PVE. Players who just participated in a zerg DE, went full out AOE dps and barely got a scratch (not realising that others took most of the aggro for them). Then out on their own you need to res them because suddenly they do get the attention of mobs. Lot of players just mainly focus on killing mobs and not so much on staying alive when doing that.
I need to revive roflcopter warriors and with their 2handed swords and fire elementalists (who never switch element) all the time. Fortunately less so in higher lvl areas. There it is more of a mix. Probably because most by then learned to become more aware of their surroundings.
I play warrior and engi. I rarely die on any of those classes and that is mainly because I know when to get out imo. On engineer you sometimes just have to know when not to use turrets or grenades I guess
Not just WoW, LoTRO/SWTOR/name the MMO. A few people in my guild had a hell of time trying to understand why if they just stood in one spot and mashed buttons they died. Lie I said in a earlier post I even strafe and kite ot move in and out on my guardian. Thief still has me bumfoozled on how to handle multiples but for me half the fun is figuring it out and finding the correct strategy/weapon
I miss DAoC
Now I see people talking about mobility and awareness. This stuff falls into the same category as some of my earlier statements.
How many ways to dodge do you have? The novice would say two (as much as endurance allows).
Others would factor in skills and utility that allow them to avoid hits. Things like blind and skills like blossom (jumps over the target). The thing is some classes can face off against a vet mob and be immune to damage from 100% to 0% while other classes are involved in some little game of kite and retreat.
Now in my personal opinion both sides of this coin are a bit lame. I think its hilariously funny that one class can just stand there and perma blind a vet mob. While the other is constantly kiting, stumbling into other mobs and generally having to use every single skill. I wish there was a bit of middle ground, but I don't want the middle ground to homogonize us all. I think Anet is capable of taking an iron to these wrinkles and the game will be better for it.
Exactly this. It was a problem for me on my guardian of all things. I kept dying but it was always my fault. Just needed to unlearn my wowisms.
I miss DAoC
As a fellow elementalist I agree, we have the lowest base hp in the game and our damage is garbage compared to the other classes, not to mention everyone does condition based damage a lot better then us i.e necros and burst damage(it gets awkward when guardians can out damage us). I recall in the beta having a ton of burst damage granted I built a glass canon only now we are more like pee shooters now in spvp, while we are ok in pve, other classes are a complete face roll while we have to throw everything we got in order to stay alive.( in orr at least)
Don't get me started on our terrible traits!
Earth and Air attunements are that bad, eh? Dang, I thought that's where most of the survivability was. See? I should roll an ele and figure this out for myself.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Powerful Elementalist Exploit in SPvP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh5zjK7ITpQ
lol that was pretty funny
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Isnt it..just a screenshot about backstab dmg for some giggles
Untill the elementalist actually knows how to play... because then it evens out. and to have a chance to win the thief needs all his buttons. An elementalist is based on active defenses, so he ought to use them. The thief might actually never get close to the Ele.
As said, low level beings will have a much better time in sPvP on thief then on Ele. But the same low level beings keep complaining that their thives keep dying in PvE, go figure.
And if you think getting the most out of your elementalist is hard? Try the engineer, its even more complicated, if you want it all.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
How do you want to explain the screenshot ? Alright I have never seen such a high crit so far in spvp but they exist like we all see.
5749 dmg from cloak and dagger + 18898 dmg from backstab
= ~ 25.000 dmg
Survivability isn't an issue. Mesmers' problem is that they can't "tag" mobs as well as many other classes. They simply don't have many AoE skills. When a Warrior spins into a bunch of mobs, he tags all of them and gets to loot all of them. When a Mesmer's clone cripples some enemies, you don't get anything. Shatters are ok-ish for AoE, but they recharge too long, while some classes can spam their AoE skills all day long. iBerserker is unreliable, Staff #5 has a long recharge and that leaves us with MH sword #1 and #2, which are both great skills, but don't AoE that much.
My main character is a Mesmer and I have no problems in tough encounters, because our survivability is great and we have an enormous amount of tricks in our pockets. However, I can see that, if I played a Warrior, I'd be getting a lot more loot from crowded DEs.
I was playing my Ele and I got hit for 9.8k by a thief, that night I rolled a thief, specd it for crit rate/power went BGs and haven't had more fun.
In only my 5-6th BG I actually had someone complaining I was OP...took me all of 5-6 matches to learn to rape with a thief.