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Originally posted by Xzen Originally posted by Onecrazyguy Originally posted by Loke666 Originally posted by bubaluba If no trinity is good be sure that Blizzard would adopt this idea. They tried to create something new in gw2 but only what they did is simplification of everything.
Not really, Blizzard wont totally revamp the base mechanics of Wow no matter what, not worth the chanse.
And it is not simplification, the trinity is as simple as anything can get. 1 guy tank, 1 guy heal, 3 guys DPS is still the simplest mechnic around. Often everyone can just stand still and rotate skills.
Then of course trinity can be more advanced with CC and buffing, but you really dont need them in modern MMOs like you did in EQ.
They don't need to. It's GW2 that has the rez-fest type of dungeoning, not WoW. There's little to no strategy in dungeons in GW2, at least the trinity sets up the basic strategy from the start. As for simpler, I'd argue GW2 IS simpler - they didn't have to mess with class balance by doing it their way, you don't need any type of group, etc. But whatever, some like it. I'm sure we'll see in the next 30 days how well the game is sticking.
The part highlighted explains why you think GW2 is a rez fest. YOU don't use strategy you just try to zerg.
I don't know how team of 5 people can zerg a dungeon. Or we change meaning of zerg to suit our argument?
Originally posted by halflife25 Originally posted by Xzen Originally posted by Onecrazyguy Originally posted by Loke666 Originally posted by bubaluba If no trinity is good be sure that Blizzard would adopt this idea. They tried to create something new in gw2 but only what they did is simplification of everything.
They call it rez zerging, everyone who complains about it makes it into that. Basically, as long as one person is on the boss, then the rest can sit in circles and die, then walk back and keep going till they kill the boss. Thats why its a "zerg" because you have a limitless supply of people in a 5 man dungeon since they can constantly walk back after dying.
Originally posted by Volkon Miss the trinity? Me? Dude... I AM the freakin' trinity!
Enjoying your guardian I see.
First, the DE give the wrong impression imo. If there are many players, they become simple zergfests and people even get rewarded if they fail the event because they are not paying attention. (or can't due to the AOE spam) Then, holy trinity in this case would make it just as boring,
Try a dungeon in explorable mode first and then think again. Trinity would turn that into a simple tank and spank game, while having no trinity actually requires your group to work even more together and more importantly respond faster to changing situations. Instead of just a simple taunt/CC the add.
So, while I think that zerg DE's in GW2 can be boring and give the wrong impression, holy trinity on the other hand is always a snorefest to me. It works ALWAYS the same. I never thought the classic taunting system was any fun. Rounding up mobs like that just doesn't make sense. And only the most stupid (dps) players can mess this up.
Originally posted by Yamota Originally posted by TdogSkal Originally posted by Tardcore Originally posted by Yamota I wasn't a particular fan of the trinity system but now that it is not here anymore I miss it. Specially compared to whatever Arena Net has replaced it with. For example I used to play CC/Healer utility class and I cant seem to do that properly here. Either the heals/CC are too weak, too small radius or too long cooldown. So right now I dont know what kind of role my Elementalist does as the only thing he can do consistently is DPS.
Well dps AND run around like a spastic with ants in his pants.
Well Elementalist can become main healers if they spec for it. My roommate does DPS sure but he can out heal most other classes and does so in Dungeons all the time.
I think that as more people learn their professions (the biggest thing right now is people do not learn their professions, they just stick to what they know) we will see alot more "roles' being filled.
Explain to me how to spec. for it. Staff healing and water specced is the best setup I can make with my Elementalist and I still cannot heal consistently. Basically Healing Rain has too long cooldown, even with -20% CD trait, and geyser is too weak and too small radius to effectively use as healing. So I dont see how it is possible to spec. for main healer as Elementalist, secondary maybe but not main.
I do not play one, my Roommate who has an 80 Elementalist is specced for healing or at least he is normally the one healing everyone in our dungeon runs or world events in the lvl 80 zone.
I will ask him tonight and see if I can post his build tomorrow.
Sooner or Later
Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)
Originally posted by Zikari Please stay with me for a second and read my opinion before ranting solely because of the title. First a quick history of what I played in the past. I was playing Holy Priest for most of my 'hardcore' raiding career in WoW from Vanilla till Lich King, later causally pugged as Paladin Tank for Cataclysm. I played Warrior Priest and Zelot on the Warhammer Online battlefields and cleared dungeons as Mitra Priest and later Guardian in Age of Conan. Lately I came to play The Secret World and mainly tanked during my dungeon runs, while occasionally going DPS. Now Guild Wars 2 is my first MMO not using the Tank/Healer/DPS split as basis for it's dungeon play and honestly I am having a hard time getting used to it. Maybe that’s the wrong term, having a hard time liking or appreciating the benefits is more accurate. As others have stated in other threats, a lack of trinity does not mean you can randomly throw together any 5 players without taking their build into consideration and have a chance on success. Big problem here, most players don't seem to be aware of this, with the result that dungeon runs in pick-up groups tend to be very chaotic and unorganized The trinity, gave players a baseline tactic to approach every situation, the players of each role knew what their job was upon entering the dungeon, send the tank to catch the mobs, make sure no one dies, kill everything, simple but yet you could build tons of fun encounters around that baseline. Now people don’t have an initial understanding what they are supposed to do. Everybody seems to fight for himself and only looks out for other to raise them up after they have been downed. Mob Aggro, while following some rules, seems to be a bit of a mystery and it doesn’t really let you prepare your skill deck before an encounter, since it is making a huge difference if all the adds and the boss are chasing you, or someone else (aggro depending on player health is a very very annoying mechanic). There are other things to be found in the dungeons that I would consider problematic from a design perspective, trash heavy, long walks after wipes, graveyard zerging, very high health-pools for bosses and trash and barely telegraphed one-shot mechanics are the most obvious. I love the game, I love exploring, doing events and the WvW, but the dungeons so far have been more frustrating than anything else. I am not saying they are to hard, the difficulty is okay for the most part, but the gameplay is hectic and random, that makes it frustrating on failure, since it is very hard to analyse what went wrong and how to do better. This lead to a series of questions that I answered myself: Does the lack of trinity make looking for groups easier? - YES, definitely Did I have more or less fun playing GW 5 man dungeons than 5 man dungeons in games with a trinity model? - LESS FUN, this is an subjective statement. Am I having less fun because there is no trinity? - TO A LARGE DEGREE YES, the trinity enforced collaboration, while without, it is more everyone for himself, which goes against the idea of an team effort required to overcome a dungeon challenge. Will it be more fun in a fixed group? - MOST LIKELY, my experience is based on PUG's, I am perfectly aware that a well build team will have an completely different experience. What’s your take on this, do you miss the trinity in the 5 player dungeons of Guild Wars 2?
I fully agree. Flexibility is nice and fine, but totally individualized jack of all trades are not cooperating.
Agree to all you say!
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Originally posted by dariuszp Originally posted by Zikari Does the lack of trinity make looking for groups easier? - YES, definitely Did I have more or less fun playing GW 5 man dungeons than 5 man dungeons in games with a trinity model? - LESS FUN, this is an subjective statement. Am I having less fun because there is no trinity? - TO A LARGE DEGREE YES, the trinity enforced collaboration, while without, it is more everyone for himself, which goes against the idea of an team effort required to overcome a dungeon challenge. Will it be more fun in a fixed group? - MOST LIKELY, my experience is based on PUG's, I am perfectly aware that a well build team will have an completely different experience. What’s your take on this, do you miss the trinity in the 5 player dungeons of Guild Wars 2?
Trinity never enforced collaboration. Trinity enforced ONE ROLE for YOUR ENTIRE TIME. You were doomed to heal or be punching bag whole f***** time. In GW2 you can take any role you want and they just switch to something else.
That is terrible game design but it has nothing to do with trinity itself. There are trinity games where tank/healer can join as a pure damage class (and do well when compared to actual damage classes) or tanking/healing a bit while focusing mainly on damage or tanking while doing damage/ healing while doing damage. Damage classes are damage classes though and it's usually hard for them to do any meaningful tanking or healing but it's easier for them to do CCs, damage and whatnot.
There is nothing you can really do about the tanking and healing class dependency in trinity games and it's a perfectly valid point.
Originally posted by Loke666 I dont miss the trinity at all, but then have I played plenty of Guildwars during the years (side by side with a whole bunch of other MMOs though). I dont mind the healer really but the tank just make any combat into incredible boring skill rotation. I think it just take some time getting used to, many people have played trinity games 5-16 years and beliving that 3 weeks of GW2 would change the way you play completely is a bit naive. In a few months if you still play I think you will get the real backfeeling of the none trinity combat, you know when you dont have to think but just react to anything.
I was actually getting frustrated with my proffession around 15-25, until I found my groove/play style,got use to the skills/traits that were availible to me...and once I did...I started to have a lot more fun reacting/switching up skills in the middle of combat to fit the situation.
The dungeons on the other hand...idk only ran 3 but it felt like a rez fest...personall exp,not saying there bad or anyting,lol guess I need to play a few more of them >.0
There is just not clear cut definition of each job (healer, tank, dps).
And some people might say, that's a good thing. But in reallity, there will always be certain classes and certain builds within those classes that are just better than other classes.
So you might get away with a ragtag group in most cases, but in the few extreme cases, the trinity is still there, and anything else is just gimp.
Ive been waiting for this question for awhile now.People have been pineing for the end of the "Holy Trinity" for sometime.The reality is the "Holy Trinity" makes comlete sense and doesnt need to be removed from any and all future MMO's.That being siad I think GW2s implementation works as designed and I have no problem with it.Of course like you said this is all subjective.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Originally posted by Muktuk Originally posted by Volkon Miss the trinity? Me? Dude... I AM the freakin' trinity!
Mesmer. Every profession is capable of highly effective, balanced builds. It's when you try to think of "roles" that problems start. Instead, think of additional tools in your kit (so to speak). You can trait your skills for additional support, control, etc. to round off your character quite nicely.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Yeap. That is the point, or more accurately. It is not even the tank, it is the aggro mechanic. Tank hit mob once, and while be 100% attacked.. just lame.
But now here is a experience, where it got a lot more interesting, fun and challenging.
It was in DAoC pre Frontiers with the Guard mechanic in pvp.
In pvp noone attacks the tank for a good reason. It is... stupid.
So cut out the aggro mechanismn, cut out that they attack the tank, better attack the most dangerous player, in other words most dps or most healing power. And change the tank to that Guard in Daoc.
What was that Guard? Well, as tank in DAoC you could set guard on any player, and with it, you would have blocked attacks targeting this player, if you were near by him, and looked at the position of the mob, with maybe an 150° range of blocking.
And another mechanism was to sacrifice attacking and just block, with that your block rate was highly increased.
In pvp with good groups this mechanism was highly used and the healer or caster rather effective protected, and it required a lot more skill. Because you had to change your guard target on the fly and look ahead what your enemy will most probably do.
I seriously dont understand why they removed it with Frontiers and replaced it with the much easier, and not half that fun bodyguard mechanismn, or why no other game picked that up, or expanded on that idea in pve, too.
I personly did guarding instead of holding aggro just for fun in DaoC at some times. Ok, it was never that effectiv as aggroing the mobs, but a lot more fun.
So whats my point? I dont like the extremely simple holy trinity concept, but i dont know either if the way GW2 is doing is the best possibly approach. I guess there are better ways.
And next the healer problem. To play a healer is rather boring long term, expecially with aggro management, without it could of course be funnier. But how about other mechanismn? I think GW2 ideas are not that bad, but the most healing abilities in GW2 are rather weak. So give us other more creative ways to heal, but nevertheless make it usefull enough, that your main purpose is indeed healing, or avoiding dmg.
As another sidenote. I really enjoyed the Shadowpriest in WoW, and just for fun we run dungeons with two Shadowpriests instead of a holy priest. It was a different playstyle, but a lot more fun. But well.. shadowpriests werent really wanted from the community in WoW.. well the holy priest was just a lot better in healin. But without a holy priest this would a probem at all.
I have been yearning to be liberated from the trinity since I started raiding in TBC (played as a tank). The better I got at my role, the deeper my understanding of the trinity became and the more I realized just how shallow of a mechanic the trinity really is.
I got really upset when this trinity (especially threat) nonsense started creeping into single player RPGs.
But when GW2 announced it wouldnt have a trinity I was so pleased and when I got to play the game it felt so liberating. So no, I definately do not miss the no teamwork/coordination trinity system.
I like being always at risk of getting killed, I like the lack of healers so I wont magically go from near death to full health in a matter of seconds, I like body blocking projectiles to take the hit from a wounded ally saving his life. I like mobs that seem to be a bit smarter than your typical "lets attack the guy with heavy armor and a shield".
Not to mention, I like combo skills, I like skills that require coordination to pull of perfectly, I like the increased emphasis on positioning.
That said, combat isnt perfect in dungeons and HP bloating is a problem. The mobs seem too dang sturdy and take too many hits from my hammer to kill.
Tactics can come from any combitation of players, it's about learning new tactics. I get why the OP likes the trinity. It's the same tactics that he is used to. It's akin to wanting to jump on mushrooms in sonic the hedgehog. It's easy, it's what you know. But a new game should have ne wtactics you have to learn.
I, for the love of me, cant figure out why anyone would want to play the same tactics in every game . At this point, you're letting teh game play you and just being admired by the different pretty colors and settings.
I never like the Holy trinity and so Ive always play games like Domo, where you can combine parts of different class's. Like heavy armor, frog spells(buff/healing) taunt(keep enemy on me, yes a entire line of spells was named that) and then I took the wiz aoe and sorce spring spells(spring good for control pushes,stuns and such)
With that, since I was on my wiz as main, I did not have the kinda def as a focus tank did. However I could take a gaint group of enemies and survive.
On flyff as long as you had a healer you could fight large groups solo pretty easy as well. I made a healer on another acount and put him on auto cast on me, while i play on my wiz account.
This game had a very weak holty trinity in it, since it did not have any real dgn and so no one use the holy trinity, all you ever herd in chat was. looking for healer. Tanks was not in it.
In the end I hate the holy trinity, I prefer more freedom. It ther reason I quit WoW so long ago.
I love my Mesmer, where I can control(I do this mainly) while putting out dps and doing some support. Only ever had 1 fail team so far, and that was in TA explorable. With all the poi, they was stupid and kept standing in the poi. I only died 1 time. But gruop died over 10 times. On the worm boss, I kept having to fight all of them solo. While team ran back, because they kept standing there in the damn poi. Which Ive been in tons of dgn and a lot of times.
So yes I love this new game and as long as you get not fail groups. You can all easy work together and do combo's and look after each other, pretty well.
Roll the Dice
Warhammer online: Age of Reckoning implimented the "Guard" skill for the Heavy armor/tank classes. It worked very well, I felt as a tank I was contributing to the team, by being able to gaurd one of my less armored team mates, and it suited the role of a tank.
In a game with out the trinity, peeps are right, you need to learn new tactics and work together a bit differently.
IDK about DAoC's RvR, but atm in WvW (my personal exp) most of the action is zerging.
and people complaining about how there class cant take another class 1v1, is honestly stupid..for the most part imo. PvP is team based play. if you want to win 1v1 you better off playing a FPS or fighting game >.0
Originally posted by kafka1984 Eliminating the Trinity in my experience makes it a better experience by doing away with the down-time required to LFG.
Not necessarily. MMOs with a dungeon finder get me inside quicker than spamming chat with "LFG Story Mode" in GW2. Tanks & Healers always got in faster, especially in WoW, and to some extent in Swtor.
Originally posted by bubaluba If no trinity is good be sure that Blizzard would adopt this idea. They tried to create something new in gw2 but only what they did is simplification of everything.
Sorry to quote so far back but...no...removing a role then distributing it to all classes is not doing anything new...its just removing a staple role. Also, not sure you could simplify further than what GW2 did...however we are talking blizzard so they are up against good competition for it i guess.
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