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X-post from Reddit: You are all destroying the MMO genre, and you don't even know why you act the wa

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  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Cable companies are struggling with constant customer loss that can't be replaced. This is because the TV is so bad and it has chased away many of that viewers it once had.
    The reason companies put reality TV out is not because it gets record breaking viewers. They put it out because it is the cheapest stuff to make so it doesn't need as many viewers to be successful the way expensive dramas do.
    Those are the true facts.

     

    The movie industry is also at one of its lowest profitability levels in all of history. This is because many people feel the majority of the movies coming out are crap. 

    Basically your argument is missing out on all of the actual facts. Television, movies and gaming markets (most notably MMOs) are having trouble. Part of it is the economy, part of it is because of the crap products being put out there.

     

    Umm you toss out a lot of statements as fact here.  I'd like to see the sources for all these "facts."

    Google or follow the news once in a while, the information is out there.

    Here's an excerpt from Televsion subscriber losses, I'll let you find your own articles and research:

     

    But this quarter's losses were stark for DirecTV, which lost customers for the first time ever and for Time Warner, who lost customers for the tenth straight quarter and lost more than analysts expected. Comcast's loss of 169,000 customers was actually an improvement over previous quarters.

     

    You can also find reports on how networks changed their programming due to loss of profitability margins on high end shows. You'll find information on how CBS decided to not follow that trend and keep putting out high cost higher quality shows. It is the most watched network on televsion as an added emphasis on how people do want good television and not reality TV.

     

    Here is an excerpt about movie problems, again I'll let you find your own sources:

     

    I hope you’re sitting down, because I have some difficult news to share: Almost everyone hates going to the movies. After cinema attendance hit at 16-year low last year, a new study has found that only 3% of U.S. consumers consider moviegoing “a frequent source of entertainment.” Is this news as bad as it seems? And if so, what can be done about it?

    Maybe the most depressing thing about the survey in question is that it’s really easy to imagine why movies have fallen so dramatically in popularity (Two years ago, 28% of people rated moviegoing as a frequent source of entertainment, to give you an idea of just how sharp the decline is). After all, going to the movies is both expensive and, often, not that fun of an experience; bad crowds, bad seats and bad movies can all end up ruining the night out. When you start to think about all of the variables that can make moviegoing a less than optimal way to spend your time, suddenly alternative plans become much more attractive.

     

    Hopefully with all of the layoffs, company shut downs, game shut downs etc. I don't really have to go get you excerpts about how the MMO genre isn't doing well, isn't meeting expectations, and how some companies have said there is no future in MMOs and do not want to put any money into developing new ones.

    Ok, you have shown me there is a decline; that was never a point I had an issue with.  But the reasons for the decline you stated as fact, I am still waiting for the evidence behind that.

    The reason for the small decline is the deepest recession for more than 60 years.

  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Cable companies are struggling with constant customer loss that can't be replaced. This is because the TV is so bad and it has chased away many of that viewers it once had.
    The reason companies put reality TV out is not because it gets record breaking viewers. They put it out because it is the cheapest stuff to make so it doesn't need as many viewers to be successful the way expensive dramas do.
    Those are the true facts.

     

    The movie industry is also at one of its lowest profitability levels in all of history. This is because many people feel the majority of the movies coming out are crap. 

    Basically your argument is missing out on all of the actual facts. Television, movies and gaming markets (most notably MMOs) are having trouble. Part of it is the economy, part of it is because of the crap products being put out there.

     

    Umm you toss out a lot of statements as fact here.  I'd like to see the sources for all these "facts."

    Google or follow the news once in a while, the information is out there.

    In other words: no, you havent got shit to back up your statements with.

    Last year Avengers had one of the highest gross sales EVER. Batman also sold out beyond all expectations and there are more MMO's than ever before. SW:TOR sold over 2 million copies and has an estimated sub. base of 500.000. Rift sold over a million copies,  GW2 sold over 2 million.

    I may personally not like the direction the genre has taken towards a more casual type but that the genre is struggling is complete and utter rubbish.

    Didn't read my other post did you. I'll give you a minute.

     

    How about the correlation between traditional TV and Movie viewing declining and the rise of Internet use with the easy access to movies and TV in way they the veiwer can control?

     

    But the real reason is there is more entertainment option these days in 1920's it was the Music hall theatres, Silent Movies, Books 1950's TV, Movies, Theatre, Records, Books, 1980's Cable TV, Video Games, Home Video, Theatre, CD's, Cinema, Books, 2000, Internet (which is the biggest change in humanity  since the Industrial Revolution and has put us in the Information Age), Cinema, MP3, DVD, Video Games, 100's of TV channels, Books.  Access to entertainment has never been so diverse and easy to get as it is with the Internet traditional entertainment platforms are bound to suffer. Add to that a deep recession in the western world for the past 4 years and you should get my point.

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,278Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torx

     

    Why can't we as an MMO community take the attitude we bring to FPS games, RPG games, and apply it to an MMO? Too many damn players feel like the only thing that motivates them in an MMO is the "carrot" of gear always being held out in front of them (and don't know what to do with themselves without it) - and you are destroying the genre. You need to fix that shit before you destroy the genre that we love.

    We take the attitude of playing games for FUN in almost every other genre, so why can't we do it for MMOs too?

     

    Link to the original thread: http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/104j7o/you_are_all_destroying_the_mmo_genre_and_you_dont/

    I wont speak for the whole community.

     

    I feel we shouldn't have the same attitude about mmorpg as we do about fps and rpg games. The mmorpg is a higher form or atleast was, and was intended to be. The mmoprg was a virtual world, while your fps games were lobbies, and rpgs were simgle player. 

     

    Gear or items as they were called have been a part of the faberic of rpgs since before they were on the computer. Skill progression, and items through adventure. There was always more adventure to be had, and skills and power to be gained.  These pc virtual worlds (mmorpgs) sought to bring these things to light.

     

    Asking, better yet demanding these things should be applauded not attacked. If a developer can not bring these things in the opinion of the community, or further more move away from these things, the game should die or atleast be called to task. 

     

    If the genre can not get it together, I would rather it die than take my money by selling to my hope and telling me what I want to hear. 

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by grimal
     

    Ok, you have shown me there is a decline; that was never a point I had an issue with.  But the reasons for the decline you stated as fact, I am still waiting for the evidence behind that.

    The reason for the small decline is the deepest recession for more than 60 years.

    I disagree with this.  You know what sells well during hard times?  Cheap escapism.  Drugs, booze, movies, games, etc.  Movies have become repetitive boring copies of each other, and the few gems that aren't are often rewarded (unless they are too cerebral for today's population).  Same with TV shows.  How many good shows have been cancelled to make room for reality TV and other bullshit that required zero brain activity?  I told my daughter jsut today at lunch to really embrace books, because the odds are that entertainment is going to continue to be less and less entertaining for anyone with a brain.  

    Don't you really know what the problem is?  I mean can't you feel it yourself? Show me one AAA mmorpg game that game out in the last seven years which is *significantly different* than WoW.  Even GW2 is mostly just very well repackaged features we've all played for several years now.  It's still just a race to level cap, and a gear grind.  There are no other features there to allow for player-driven content, or emergent gameplay at all.   Is GW2 all that different in gameplay from Rift, or SWTOR, or LOTRO, or WoW, or TSW or anything else?  The only game anyone can point to as being different is EVE, and unfortunately that game does not appeal to everyone.  The *features* do, but the setting and content don't.

     

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Cable companies are struggling with constant customer loss that can't be replaced. This is because the TV is so bad and it has chased away many of that viewers it once had.
    The reason companies put reality TV out is not because it gets record breaking viewers. They put it out because it is the cheapest stuff to make so it doesn't need as many viewers to be successful the way expensive dramas do.
    Those are the true facts.

     

    The movie industry is also at one of its lowest profitability levels in all of history. This is because many people feel the majority of the movies coming out are crap. 

    Basically your argument is missing out on all of the actual facts. Television, movies and gaming markets (most notably MMOs) are having trouble. Part of it is the economy, part of it is because of the crap products being put out there.

     

    Umm you toss out a lot of statements as fact here.  I'd like to see the sources for all these "facts."

    Google or follow the news once in a while, the information is out there.

    I do.  Funny, I don't seem to see that news anywhere.  Sure, I can find the occasionally commentator voicing his or her opinion....but that's all it is, opinion.  I just don't see any facts....so I am still waiting for you to cite you sources. Afterall, the burden of proof is on you.

    Actually, the gross number of ticket sales seems to have been in steady decline the past 7 or 8 years now, but hard to speak to the overall profitability due to increasing average ticket prices and no telling where the cost to produce figures factor in. (or how much they make from Netflix and other alternate distribution channels)

    http://boxofficemojo.com/yearly/

    The gross sales in dollars has been going up, inspite of low inflation and deep recession. If anything this chart shows that the industry is doing just fine.

    Gross sales does not equate to profits. Cost of making movies is much higher. Yes I know unless God himself comes down and tells you this, you won't accept it as truth, but it is the truth.

  • JemcrystalJemcrystal Champaign, ILPosts: 1,552Member Uncommon
    So does this mean if I tell everyone no MMO satisfies me I get a free fuck?!  All along it was so easy.  Who'd a knew?

  • SaintPhilipSaintPhilip Bree, MIPosts: 713Member
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Cable companies are struggling with constant customer loss that can't be replaced. This is because the TV is so bad and it has chased away many of that viewers it once had.
    The reason companies put reality TV out is not because it gets record breaking viewers. They put it out because it is the cheapest stuff to make so it doesn't need as many viewers to be successful the way expensive dramas do.
    Those are the true facts.

     

    The movie industry is also at one of its lowest profitability levels in all of history. This is because many people feel the majority of the movies coming out are crap. 

    Basically your argument is missing out on all of the actual facts. Television, movies and gaming markets (most notably MMOs) are having trouble. Part of it is the economy, part of it is because of the crap products being put out there.

     

    Umm you toss out a lot of statements as fact here.  I'd like to see the sources for all these "facts."

    Google or follow the news once in a while, the information is out there.

    I do.  Funny, I don't seem to see that news anywhere.  Sure, I can find the occasionally commentator voicing his or her opinion....but that's all it is, opinion.  I just don't see any facts....so I am still waiting for you to cite you sources. Afterall, the burden of proof is on you.

    Actually, the gross number of ticket sales seems to have been in steady decline the past 7 or 8 years now, but hard to speak to the overall profitability due to increasing average ticket prices and no telling where the cost to produce figures factor in. (or how much they make from Netflix and other alternate distribution channels)

    http://boxofficemojo.com/yearly/

    The gross sales in dollars has been going up, inspite of low inflation and deep recession. If anything this chart shows that the industry is doing just fine.

    Gross sales does not equate to profits. Cost of making movies is much higher. Yes I know unless God himself comes down and tells you this, you won't accept it as truth, but it is the truth.

    And it cost more money today ONLY because Movies need prettier explosions and special effects... Adding good actors (not overpaid stars) and a good script is second fiddle to studios getting "Big names" and "Jaw dropping" special effects which actually add far less to the movie but bring in far more $$$ as a general rule.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,278Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by grimal
     

    Ok, you have shown me there is a decline; that was never a point I had an issue with.  But the reasons for the decline you stated as fact, I am still waiting for the evidence behind that.

    The reason for the small decline is the deepest recession for more than 60 years.

     I told my daughter jsut today at lunch to really embrace books, because the odds are that entertainment is going to continue to be less and less entertaining for anyone with a brain.  

     

     

    I will tell my son the samething.

  • XzenXzen Los Alamos, NMPosts: 2,607Member Common
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by Yamota

    Complete fanboy nonsense from someone who does not understand market mechanics. It is quite simple, companies create products which customers like. If they don't like it then they wont buy it, period. You cant ever say that it is the customers fault for not liking your product and that is what essentially this post is saying.

    So the statement that the genre is being ruined because customers dont like a certain aspect of an MMO is complete rubbish. Companies need to figure out what works and what does not, you as a consumer have only one obligation and that is to buy the products you like. If you don't like endless grinding for gear then dont buy those games but that does not mean that it can be assumed that replacing endless grinding for gear with anything will make customers like your game.

    Now I am not saying that customers dont like what GW 2 has to offer as replacement for endgame, gear grinding but if they don't like it then they don't. Companies need to figure out what they like instead and cant blame customers for not liking what they do.

    I don't know man. A lot of people watch reality TV and bad Movie remakes and it has been ruining the quality of both forms of entertainment. When a good movie does come out I see a lot of complaints from the same people because it didn't have enough explosions etc.....

    I dont know what you mean, good movies get good ratings. The latest Batman movie was awesome and it got awesome ratings and the fact that reality TV is popular is because apparently alot of people like them and you cant blame people for what they like. Like you cant blame people if they dont like GW 2:s version of end game.

    A corporations who blames customers for not buying their stuff is a corporation which will go bankrupt and this is what the OP does not get where he seems to want to blame customers for not, allegedly, liking something he likes and acting like that will ruin the genre and that is just nonsense.

    They might ruin it from his point of view, like from my point of view who like Asheron's Call and Ultima Online and think the current selection of MMORPGs are not all that good, but that does not make the genre ruined. 

    Good movies also get bad ratings while bad ones get good ratings.

    I can blame people for what ever I feel like. That's the way blame works.

    I don't care if people like GW2s endgame.

    What corportation is blaming customers? The op was a post by a customer blaming other customers.

    All I got from the OP was he was calling out all the people that bitch and moan about a certain type of endgame and then bitch and moan that a game does not have the same endgame.

  • SaintPhilipSaintPhilip Bree, MIPosts: 713Member
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by Yamota

    Complete fanboy nonsense from someone who does not understand market mechanics. It is quite simple, companies create products which customers like. If they don't like it then they wont buy it, period. You cant ever say that it is the customers fault for not liking your product and that is what essentially this post is saying.

    So the statement that the genre is being ruined because customers dont like a certain aspect of an MMO is complete rubbish. Companies need to figure out what works and what does not, you as a consumer have only one obligation and that is to buy the products you like. If you don't like endless grinding for gear then dont buy those games but that does not mean that it can be assumed that replacing endless grinding for gear with anything will make customers like your game.

    Now I am not saying that customers dont like what GW 2 has to offer as replacement for endgame, gear grinding but if they don't like it then they don't. Companies need to figure out what they like instead and cant blame customers for not liking what they do.

    I don't know man. A lot of people watch reality TV and bad Movie remakes and it has been ruining the quality of both forms of entertainment. When a good movie does come out I see a lot of complaints from the same people because it didn't have enough explosions etc.....

    I dont know what you mean, good movies get good ratings. The latest Batman movie was awesome and it got awesome ratings and the fact that reality TV is popular is because apparently alot of people like them and you cant blame people for what they like. Like you cant blame people if they dont like GW 2:s version of end game.

    A corporations who blames customers for not buying their stuff is a corporation which will go bankrupt and this is what the OP does not get where he seems to want to blame customers for not, allegedly, liking something he likes and acting like that will ruin the genre and that is just nonsense.

    They might ruin it from his point of view, like from my point of view who like Asheron's Call and Ultima Online and think the current selection of MMORPGs are not all that good, but that does not make the genre ruined. 

    Good movies also get bad ratings while bad ones get good ratings.

    I can blame people for what ever I feel like. That's the way blame works.

    I don't care if people like GW2s endgame.

    What corpertation is blaming customers? The op was a post by a customer blaming other customers.

    All I got from the OP was he was calling out all the people that bitch and moan about a certain type of endgame and then bitch and moan that a game does not have the same endgame.

    SWTOR is KINDA blaming customers- The "sub" model anyhow. Plus there seems to be an air of arragance arounf the Corporate World in General right now (not just in games) that failure is being "excused" and "written off" for a plethora of reasons but NEVER bad managment or a bad product.

    EDIT: Ratings also no longer really determine anything beyond popularity (which is accomplished by marketing for the most part)- Its really quite scandelous. Granted we have gotten some fantastic Movies of late which merged good technology and FX with a good story (Such as Avatar) and games which have also used to tech to "add" to the game rather than dumb it down . But overall this is a total glut in Music/Movies/Games which are more about "image" and "marketing" forces than depth and quality.

  • UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by StoneRoses
    Hating on video games is serious business for some folks!

     It's not just people who experess a "negative" opiniion though.  Fans are just as much to blame. 

    I made a simple observation about exploring in GW2, I think it's far to trivial to the point that Anet actually made exploring in an MMO EASIER.  In the exact same post I actually said it was a GOOD GAME.  Yet I get jumped on, called a hater, a liar, and that I was only trying to spread BS.

    Why?  Because I'd rather not have the mojority of things handed to me.  Because when I explore I want to EXPLORE.  I don't want to see what's there already, I want to DISCOVER POI's in the world. 

    Blind fandom can be just as harmfull.  You play a game, and then you make a simple critique that it's overly easy and you'd like a bit more challenge in some aspect of it, and a fanatic will jump on you and say that that's wrong because it's not easy enough. 

    MMO's didn't get to the point of being developed just because of the "haters".  They are where they're at because of both sides. 

    It's through constructive critisism that creative projects are improved.  Not blind fandom or hate, yet that's primarilly what you'll see.  There's very little constructive critisism from people.  

  • VyethVyeth Fayetteville, NCPosts: 1,459Member

    We will not be satisfied until the genre officially dies..

    It will, of course, continue to blend into other genres which means instead of getting a fully featured MMO, you will get an RTS game with gear and level locked content.. Platformer games with endless level grinds in order to obtain an key to progress further.. More of the same lobby based "level grind" FPS games..

    They will add a level progression system to every genre of gaming and each will be hardly no different than the next.. Just a way to restrict content..

    I agree with the whole statement.. Nothing that can be done about it though, MMO's are now mainstream and are treated as such.. You make tons of more enemies when you are thrust into the public eye the way WoW was.

    image

  • SaintPhilipSaintPhilip Bree, MIPosts: 713Member
    Originally posted by Vyeth

    We will not be satisfied until the genre officially dies..

    It will, of course, continue to blend into other genres which means instead of getting a fully featured MMO, you will get an RTS game with gear and level locked content.. Platformer games with endless level grinds in order to obtain an key to progress further.. More of the same lobby based "level grind" FPS games..

    They will add a level progression system to every genre of gaming and each will be hardly no different than the next.. Just a way to restrict content..

    I agree with the whole statement.. Nothing that can be done about it though, MMO's are now mainstream and are treated as such.. You make tons of more enemies when you are thrust into the public eye the way WoW was.

    Well said-

    But I think the genre (being half dead already) will break off into smaller niche markets with less obscene amounts of money behind them and thus more "risk taking"- Its a pretty sure bet. The question is, when will it happen? Hopefully soon-

  • rungardrungard st. john''s, NFPosts: 1,035Member
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

    Don't let the companies off the hook, they helped the cause the cycle that led to what this is, and although it may not be 100% the correct place to blame, it was likely WoW that started it.

     

     

     

     naa people have been whining since eq..

    the only difference is that the whines were absolutely no match for the vision, which i believe gained strength with every whine.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common

    The greatest error the author makes is that he/she assumes those complaints come from the same players.

    I've never played games for nothing more than the fun. I don't have needs to reach the max level other than to see the high end content. Don't need to grind gear either if its not fun - don't need to play the game if its not fun.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by grimal
     

    Ok, you have shown me there is a decline; that was never a point I had an issue with.  But the reasons for the decline you stated as fact, I am still waiting for the evidence behind that.

    The reason for the small decline is the deepest recession for more than 60 years.

    I disagree with this.  You know what sells well during hard times?  Cheap escapism.  Drugs, booze, movies, games, etc.  Movies have become repetitive boring copies of each other, and the few gems that aren't are often rewarded (unless they are too cerebral for today's population).  Same with TV shows.  How many good shows have been cancelled to make room for reality TV and other bullshit that required zero brain activity?  I told my daughter jsut today at lunch to really embrace books, because the odds are that entertainment is going to continue to be less and less entertaining for anyone with a brain.  

    Don't you really know what the problem is?  I mean can't you feel it yourself? Show me one AAA mmorpg game that game out in the last seven years which is *significantly different* than WoW.  Even GW2 is mostly just very well repackaged features we've all played for several years now.  It's still just a race to level cap, and a gear grind.  There are no other features there to allow for player-driven content, or emergent gameplay at all.   Is GW2 all that different in gameplay from Rift, or SWTOR, or LOTRO, or WoW, or TSW or anything else?  The only game anyone can point to as being different is EVE, and unfortunately that game does not appeal to everyone.  The *features* do, but the setting and content don't.

     

    Name me one significantly different FPS than Wolfenstein.

    Name me one significantly different RTS than Command and Conquer.

    Name me one significantly different Platformer than Donkey Kong.

    Name me one significantly different MOBA than DOTA.

    Name me one significantly different RPG than Ultima.

     

     

    When a game is significantly different than it predecessors it becomes a new genre. TBS >>>> RTS >>>> MOBA. RPG >>>> ARPG >>>> MMORPG for example.

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • NeokiNaomiNeokiNaomi Anchorage, AKPosts: 326Member Uncommon
    I agree with this manifesto... I want games like Anarchy Online, Star Wars Galaxies (Pre-CU/NGE), Asherons Call, DAOC... But the modern day teeny bopper would whine too much for that type of game to even break even and make a decent profit.

    TwitchTV:NeokiLIVE

  • SaintPhilipSaintPhilip Bree, MIPosts: 713Member
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by grimal
     

    Ok, you have shown me there is a decline; that was never a point I had an issue with.  But the reasons for the decline you stated as fact, I am still waiting for the evidence behind that.

    The reason for the small decline is the deepest recession for more than 60 years.

    I disagree with this.  You know what sells well during hard times?  Cheap escapism.  Drugs, booze, movies, games, etc.  Movies have become repetitive boring copies of each other, and the few gems that aren't are often rewarded (unless they are too cerebral for today's population).  Same with TV shows.  How many good shows have been cancelled to make room for reality TV and other bullshit that required zero brain activity?  I told my daughter jsut today at lunch to really embrace books, because the odds are that entertainment is going to continue to be less and less entertaining for anyone with a brain.  

    Don't you really know what the problem is?  I mean can't you feel it yourself? Show me one AAA mmorpg game that game out in the last seven years which is *significantly different* than WoW.  Even GW2 is mostly just very well repackaged features we've all played for several years now.  It's still just a race to level cap, and a gear grind.  There are no other features there to allow for player-driven content, or emergent gameplay at all.   Is GW2 all that different in gameplay from Rift, or SWTOR, or LOTRO, or WoW, or TSW or anything else?  The only game anyone can point to as being different is EVE, and unfortunately that game does not appeal to everyone.  The *features* do, but the setting and content don't.

     

    Name me one significantly different FPS than Wolfenstein.

    Name me one significantly different RTS than Command and Conquer.

    Name me one significantly different Platformer than Donkey Kong.

    Name me one significantly different MOBA than DOTA.

    Name me one significantly different RPG than Ultima.

     

     

    When a game is significantly different than it predecessors it becomes a new genre. TBS >>>> RTS >>>> MOBA. RPG >>>> ARPG >>>> MMORPG for example.

    This is a joke right?

    Simple things for simple people- And the masses as a whole are beyond simple....

  • gordiflugordiflu BarcelonaPosts: 757Member
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by grimal
     

    Ok, you have shown me there is a decline; that was never a point I had an issue with.  But the reasons for the decline you stated as fact, I am still waiting for the evidence behind that.

    The reason for the small decline is the deepest recession for more than 60 years.

    I disagree with this.  You know what sells well during hard times?  Cheap escapism.  Drugs, booze, movies, games, etc.  Movies have become repetitive boring copies of each other, and the few gems that aren't are often rewarded (unless they are too cerebral for today's population).  Same with TV shows.  How many good shows have been cancelled to make room for reality TV and other bullshit that required zero brain activity?  I told my daughter jsut today at lunch to really embrace books, because the odds are that entertainment is going to continue to be less and less entertaining for anyone with a brain.  

    Don't you really know what the problem is?  I mean can't you feel it yourself? Show me one AAA mmorpg game that game out in the last seven years which is *significantly different* than WoW.  Even GW2 is mostly just very well repackaged features we've all played for several years now.  It's still just a race to level cap, and a gear grind.  There are no other features there to allow for player-driven content, or emergent gameplay at all.   Is GW2 all that different in gameplay from Rift, or SWTOR, or LOTRO, or WoW, or TSW or anything else?  The only game anyone can point to as being different is EVE, and unfortunately that game does not appeal to everyone.  The *features* do, but the setting and content don't.

     

    Name me one significantly different FPS than Wolfenstein.

    Name me one significantly different RTS than Command and Conquer.

    Name me one significantly different Platformer than Donkey Kong.

    Name me one significantly different MOBA than DOTA.

    Name me one significantly different RPG than Ultima.

     

     

    When a game is significantly different than it predecessors it becomes a new genre. TBS >>>> RTS >>>> MOBA. RPG >>>> ARPG >>>> MMORPG for example.

    For 1, 2 and 5 I can think of Global Agenda, Mechcommander and Confrontation. I think that they are very different to the games you listed on each genre.

    Now the trick is... F* genres. I tend to use music analogies often, since music is my main pasion, more than games. And when I think about it, most of the bands or artists that I really like are very hard to "catalogue" or have something that make them quite unique, like Genghis Tron, Iwrestledabearonce or Bjork.

    I guess it's, again, about thinking out of the box.

  • AntharaAnthara CascaisPosts: 75Member

    I agree on almost everything, except the "slightly" detail about who's the fault in MMO's decline.

     

    Yes, players are like that today but... I blame the companys.

    They seem to try someone else success by removing the old school grind mmo's used to have. So, they kinda "educate" players to a rushing fast paced game. That usually ends in what we see today, mmo's reward you instantly in any activity, all is speed up without downtimes... also culminating in zero social interaction.

    Gamers consume games in one month because they can.

    We are all chickens in a huge feeding house, eating fat delicious corn and not stoping to chat for a little.

    I remember playing L2 and farming specific mobs for hours just to craft awsome gear.. a la korean type, and we just chated a lot during that time.

    Like the old downtime in wow, where we had to drink and eat and stuff to regen a bit and continue fighting. Having to move around in the world to go dungeons and stuff like that.... making social interaction possible during those "time sinks", like we love to call it these days.

    Anyway, all that grind also had terri bad stuff because it was made during the time quests sucked. :)

    I have to bring wow to my thinking and I'm sorry but, wow benefits from a past lore from sp games and a real identity that people liked and enjoyed exploring its lore. The open zones + travel time + downtimes in combat, helped a lot in friendly and unfriendly meetings.

    WoW was very slow and had a strong social interaction I believe. All that changed over the years and mainstreamed till no end.

    Now all companys want to eat from the wow pie and give us games like wow. We want something familiar to mmo's, but well done.

    We want hard games and meet people in good and bad mood. Make the game slower! But more fun please. Innovate in the quests mechanics, technology, group content. We want lore well done... not 300 hours of voicovers. 

    Also... the crafting in mmo's should be the main reason for open world pvp. By putting resources in open group areas for players to fight for.

    Again, games are beaten in one month because players can.. is that simple. MMo's are made to be finished in one month because they want to hype it, make it pretty and fun, grab 2 million sales and thats it.

    I have to stick with EVE for more time... at least I allways learn something new everytime.

    Sorry about the english, and btw. This is that kind of discussion with no end. We are all politicians discussing mrpg business.

  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gordiflu
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by grimal
     

    Ok, you have shown me there is a decline; that was never a point I had an issue with.  But the reasons for the decline you stated as fact, I am still waiting for the evidence behind that.

    The reason for the small decline is the deepest recession for more than 60 years.

    I disagree with this.  You know what sells well during hard times?  Cheap escapism.  Drugs, booze, movies, games, etc.  Movies have become repetitive boring copies of each other, and the few gems that aren't are often rewarded (unless they are too cerebral for today's population).  Same with TV shows.  How many good shows have been cancelled to make room for reality TV and other bullshit that required zero brain activity?  I told my daughter jsut today at lunch to really embrace books, because the odds are that entertainment is going to continue to be less and less entertaining for anyone with a brain.  

    Don't you really know what the problem is?  I mean can't you feel it yourself? Show me one AAA mmorpg game that game out in the last seven years which is *significantly different* than WoW.  Even GW2 is mostly just very well repackaged features we've all played for several years now.  It's still just a race to level cap, and a gear grind.  There are no other features there to allow for player-driven content, or emergent gameplay at all.   Is GW2 all that different in gameplay from Rift, or SWTOR, or LOTRO, or WoW, or TSW or anything else?  The only game anyone can point to as being different is EVE, and unfortunately that game does not appeal to everyone.  The *features* do, but the setting and content don't.

     

    Name me one significantly different FPS than Wolfenstein.

    Name me one significantly different RTS than Command and Conquer.

    Name me one significantly different Platformer than Donkey Kong.

    Name me one significantly different MOBA than DOTA.

    Name me one significantly different RPG than Ultima.

     

     

    When a game is significantly different than it predecessors it becomes a new genre. TBS >>>> RTS >>>> MOBA. RPG >>>> ARPG >>>> MMORPG for example.

    For 1, 2 and 5 I can think of Global Agenda, Mechcommander and Confrontation. I think that they are very different to the games you listed on each genre.

    Now the trick is... F* genres. I tend to use music analogies often, since music is my main pasion, more than games. And when I think about it, most of the bands or artists that I really like are very hard to "catalogue" or have something that make them quite unique, like Genghis Tron, Iwrestledabearonce or Bjork.

    I guess it's, again, about thinking out of the box.

     

    Global Agenda  is an MMOFPS, Mechcommander is an RTT, Confrontation is an Tactical RPG and I love music more than games but there are games than straddle genres like Battleforge as in music there are artists who draw from multiple genres and they are usually put in the leftfield /experimental categories. But most artists as in games can be put under main genres or subgenres as in Rock, Prog Rock, Post Rock, Space Rock, Grunge, Punk etc.. its what we do as intelligent humans we categorise stuff to make it easier to understand.

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member
    Originally posted by Calerxes

    Name me one significantly different FPS than Wolfenstein.

    Name me one significantly different RTS than Command and Conquer.

    Name me one significantly different Platformer than Donkey Kong.

    Name me one significantly different MOBA than DOTA.

    Name me one significantly different RPG than Ultima.

    When a game is significantly different than it predecessors it becomes a new genre. TBS >>>> RTS >>>> MOBA. RPG >>>> ARPG >>>> MMORPG for example.

    You can't possibly be serious. Achron. Warlords Battlecry. Kohan. All different from CandC.

    Demigod, not a DOTA clone.

    Immercenary, different than Wolfenstein.

    Warring Factions, totally different than OGame.

    A Tale in the Desert. Totally different from Vanilla WoW.

    SWTOR totally not different from WoW or WAR or EQ2 or NGE SWG.

    I usually don't agree with you but you have never been this far off base before. Did you think that post through at all?

  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by grimal
     

    Ok, you have shown me there is a decline; that was never a point I had an issue with.  But the reasons for the decline you stated as fact, I am still waiting for the evidence behind that.

    The reason for the small decline is the deepest recession for more than 60 years.

    I disagree with this.  You know what sells well during hard times?  Cheap escapism.  Drugs, booze, movies, games, etc.  Movies have become repetitive boring copies of each other, and the few gems that aren't are often rewarded (unless they are too cerebral for today's population).  Same with TV shows.  How many good shows have been cancelled to make room for reality TV and other bullshit that required zero brain activity?  I told my daughter jsut today at lunch to really embrace books, because the odds are that entertainment is going to continue to be less and less entertaining for anyone with a brain.  

    Don't you really know what the problem is?  I mean can't you feel it yourself? Show me one AAA mmorpg game that game out in the last seven years which is *significantly different* than WoW.  Even GW2 is mostly just very well repackaged features we've all played for several years now.  It's still just a race to level cap, and a gear grind.  There are no other features there to allow for player-driven content, or emergent gameplay at all.   Is GW2 all that different in gameplay from Rift, or SWTOR, or LOTRO, or WoW, or TSW or anything else?  The only game anyone can point to as being different is EVE, and unfortunately that game does not appeal to everyone.  The *features* do, but the setting and content don't.

     

    Name me one significantly different FPS than Wolfenstein.

    Name me one significantly different RTS than Command and Conquer.

    Name me one significantly different Platformer than Donkey Kong.

    Name me one significantly different MOBA than DOTA.

    Name me one significantly different RPG than Ultima.

     

     

    When a game is significantly different than it predecessors it becomes a new genre. TBS >>>> RTS >>>> MOBA. RPG >>>> ARPG >>>> MMORPG for example.

    This is a joke right?

    Simple things for simple people- And the masses as a whole are beyond simple....

     

    Wrong answer.

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Cuathon
    Originally posted by Calerxes

    Name me one significantly different FPS than Wolfenstein.

    Name me one significantly different RTS than Command and Conquer.

    Name me one significantly different Platformer than Donkey Kong.

    Name me one significantly different MOBA than DOTA.

    Name me one significantly different RPG than Ultima.

    When a game is significantly different than it predecessors it becomes a new genre. TBS >>>> RTS >>>> MOBA. RPG >>>> ARPG >>>> MMORPG for example.

    You can't possibly be serious. Achron. Warlords Battlecry. Kohan. All different from CandC.

    Demigod, not a DOTA clone.

    Immercenary, different than Wolfenstein.

    Warring Factions, totally different than OGame.

    A Tale in the Desert. Totally different from Vanilla WoW.

    SWTOR totally not different from WoW or WAR or EQ2 or NGE SWG.

    I usually don't agree with you but you have never been this far off base before. Did you think that post through at all?

     

    What I should have added was significantly different in the AAA world as there are many different games but asking for something in the world of AAA games to be significantly different means to play another genre as the more money you pour into a game the more people you have to attract thus the copying of tried and tested mechanics leading to clones. When will gamers realise that the mainstream AAA world is not going to suddenly change course becuase a few forum goers whinge, I don't buy mainstream music and cry because its not as avant garde as Autechre or The Mars Volta and thats what gamers do all the time.

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • SaintPhilipSaintPhilip Bree, MIPosts: 713Member
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by Cuathon
    Originally posted by Calerxes

    Name me one significantly different FPS than Wolfenstein.

    Name me one significantly different RTS than Command and Conquer.

    Name me one significantly different Platformer than Donkey Kong.

    Name me one significantly different MOBA than DOTA.

    Name me one significantly different RPG than Ultima.

    When a game is significantly different than it predecessors it becomes a new genre. TBS >>>> RTS >>>> MOBA. RPG >>>> ARPG >>>> MMORPG for example.

    You can't possibly be serious. Achron. Warlords Battlecry. Kohan. All different from CandC.

    Demigod, not a DOTA clone.

    Immercenary, different than Wolfenstein.

    Warring Factions, totally different than OGame.

    A Tale in the Desert. Totally different from Vanilla WoW.

    SWTOR totally not different from WoW or WAR or EQ2 or NGE SWG.

    I usually don't agree with you but you have never been this far off base before. Did you think that post through at all?

     

    What I should have added was significantly different in the AAA world as there are many different games but asking for something in the world of AAA games to be significantly different means to play another genre as the more money you pour into a game the more people you have to attract thus the copying of tried and tested mechanics leading to clones. When will gamers realise that the mainstream AAA world is not going to suddenly change course becuase a few forum goers whinge, I don't buy mainstream music and cry because its not as avant garde as Autechre or The Mars Volta and thats just what gamers do all the time.

    Hmmmm- I would fully agree with this.

    But it wasnt always this way- The AAA market used to be very diverse (especially with regards to RPG's) and the last 10 (or so) years the genre melding is what has gotten us to this point.

    But yeah, now that you have expanded upon what you had said I can see your point.

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