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Where is the ballance?

Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,065Member Uncommon

Actually the game was pretty ballanced at release. But, it was only ballanced for top players in sPvP.

 

for average players leveling in PvE however its obvious that they perform much better on a straightforward class like warrior or ranger, then a more advanced class like Engineer or Elementalist.

 

This pollicy however makes people feel like the more advanced classes are not rewarded for their efforts, just wondering how anet will overcome this feeling.

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

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Comments

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,924Member Uncommon

    Elementalist is pretty easy though...

     

    sPvP... I have to disagree about balance. Theres imbalance there and probably always will be, but its not really something you can expect to ever be 100% remedied. 

     

    PvE wise... yeah... I do have to agree. Thief in particular suffers a lot in PvE since they are given stealth to support their low survivability (makeshift CC of sorts) yet that same stealth resets the mobs. This basically forces you to quickly attack to prevent them from completly resetting which in some forms just ruins the point of stealth. Still there are advanced classes like mesmer I find actually rather easy to play PvE once you figure it out and your clone stop diieng instantly when a mob blows wind in its direction. Engineer I found very easy to play as well with much of its kit, just kiting around turrets does wonders.  Though I do agree warriors and rangers are extremely simple and make it even more thoughtless to play. 

  • fat_taddlerfat_taddler Wanaque, NJPosts: 286Member

    There's definitely a huge difference between the classes on the PvE side.  My warrior facerolls mobs and I almost never die.   

    However, my engineer and Thief are a different story.  My thief is a lot of fun to play but there's not much in terms of forgiveness if I make a mistake or bad pull.

    Hoepfully this will be ironed out soon, although Thiefs are considered OP on the PvP side which doesn't help matters. If they continue to get nerfed for PvP balance, they will simply become a burden to play in PvE

  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,041Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Purutzil

    Elementalist is pretty easy though...

     sPvP... I have to disagree about balance. Theres imbalance there and probably always will be, but its not really something you can expect to ever be 100% remedied.  

    PvE wise... yeah... I do have to agree. Thief in particular suffers a lot in PvE since they are given stealth to support their low survivability (makeshift CC of sorts) yet that same stealth resets the mobs. This basically forces you to quickly attack to prevent them from completly resetting which in some forms just ruins the point of stealth. Still there are advanced classes like mesmer I find actually rather easy to play PvE once you figure it out and your clone stop diieng instantly when a mob blows wind in its direction. Engineer I found very easy to play as well with much of its kit, just kiting around turrets does wonders.  Though I do agree warriors and rangers are extremely simple and make it even more thoughtless to play. 

    I played an Elementalist during the beta events and I have now played one all the way to 80 on live. Elementalist has a lot of tools, that much can not be denied, but as a whole I do not consider them to be a very good class at this time.

    I have started leveling up alts now and they are extremely more efficent at killing and getting things done than my Elementalist was. Thief, Warrior, Engineer are all classes that I am actively playing. With the Elementalist I have lower damage, low hps, low armor and less ways to avoid being damaged. Anytime I need to switch to another attunement to do something specific  I trigger a 1.5 global CD and with the amount of damage being thrown around in dungeons and in Spvp and WvW that is a death sentence. 

    I like the fact that they want it to be a high skill class, but as a high skill class I should at least get equal performance out of it. At this time I do not.

    The only thing that she is really useful for is attacking or defending keeps in WvW with an AOE spec. Beyond that I have retired her to AOE farming duty and I will actively play the other characters I have. 

  • SteeJanzSteeJanz Gladstone, MOPosts: 332Member Uncommon
    What's the problem?  I have a level 80 Engineer.  I must have missed the balance issue. 
  • Kaelano1Kaelano1 Peoria, ILPosts: 375Member

    Where is the ballance? Probably somewhere off gallivanting with the spelling.

     

    Anyway, what happened? You were posting 2 or 3 new threads a day why this game was great and everyone who said otherwise was wrong. What changed?

  • ScalplessScalpless SnowballvillePosts: 1,396Member Uncommon

    I think the classes being more advanced is only half the problem. The real issue is that in DEs, AoE rocks. However, some classes have few/bad AoE skills. For example, the only good ranged AoE a Mesmer has is his staff #5 and it has a long cooldown. So, it's harder for a Mesmer to get loot in DEs. I don't mind, though. I think mastering the class is a good enough reward by itself. If they buffed the more complex classes, it would be unfair for all the Warriors, because their power ceiling would be lower in comparison.

    For PvE that happens outside of DEs, all the classes I've played are fine. However, I still think they need to reduce the number of mobs in DEs and make them tougher.

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member
    Having a blast with mesmers in PvE. I think people make the mistake of trying to keep their clones alive rather than treat them like the little portable effect bombs they are. There are some great traits you should (subjective) be selecting for your clones that have "when the clone is destroyed" tied to them.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • JackdogJackdog Charleston, SCPosts: 6,344Member

    I think different player and different playstyles affect it a lot. I do a ton of circle and side strafing with my Elementalist and have him set up for conditional damage. I can tank a veteran  and 3 or 4 adds as long as I am in the open. My memsmer is the same. I even circle strafe with my guardian just out of habit althoug it does not seem to be nescessary at least in the mid teen levels. Thief is a bit of a issue and stil getting the hang of him.

    If you are having issues with a class try different weapons and builds. You can get a cheap respec in the tavern outside Divinity's Reach for your traits, no need to buy another book. I went from staff to DD, to scepter/dagger before my elementalist found his groove

    I miss DAoC

  • JackdogJackdog Charleston, SCPosts: 6,344Member
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Having a blast with mesmers in PvE. I think people make the mistake of trying to keep their clones alive rather than treat them like the little portable effect bombs they are. There are some great traits you should (subjective) be selecting for your clones that have "when the clone is destroyed" tied to them.

    heh my mesmer feels overpowered if anything LOL. That class is a kiters dream class. Damn mob (s) never knows where I am

    I miss DAoC

  • TruthXHurtsTruthXHurts El Do, KSPosts: 1,555Member
    I can't name a specific title, but some games actually label the classes as easy, medium, and hard. Why does everythign have to be balanced and fair. Nothing else in this world is. Why in the world should games be?

    "I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,041Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jackdog

    I think different player and different playstyles affect it a lot. I do a ton of circle and side strafing with my Elementalist and have him set up for conditional damage. I can tank a veteran  and 3 or 4 adds as long as I am in the open. My memsmer is the same. I even circle strafe with my guardian just out of habit althoug it does not seem to be nescessary at least in the mid teen levels. Thief is a bit of a issue and stil getting the hang of him.

    If you are having issues with a class try different weapons and builds. You can get a cheap respec in the tavern outside Divinity's Reach for your traits, no need to buy another book. I went from staff to DD, to scepter/dagger before my elementalist found his groove

    A lot of my Elementalist issues revolve around dungeons, spvp and wvw. Anyone can play any class in pve and do resonablly well (I know all about the condition damage spec). Mobs are not as smart as players.. but it still stands that I can use another class and kill the same stuff in pve in less time with substatially less risk to myself. Heck I can use a thief to take vets from 100% to dead without ever having to move. Just use something like dagger/pistol and you can literally blind him every single time he tries to swing at you. 

    Beyond that.. I dare you to go spvp on that Elementalist and come back here with posative results (score cards and such). It just does not happen. I lvled my Elementalist from 1-80 and learned the ins and outs as best I could. Then spent days trying to make her viable in Spvp, I never once placed first and most of my score cards were between 80 and 150. I made my thief after a day of frustration and went to try Spvp at level two. My very first game I scored 250 and was first place over all. At this time, all classes are not created equally or even competitively for that matter. 

     

     

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Some classes are 'Glass Cannons' do tons of damage but die easily. In GW2, that is what 'evade' is used for. If you are used to Rift and other games, where you just stand and cast - you can't in GW2. Different game mechanics require differenet game play.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,041Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TruthXHurts
    I can't name a specific title, but some games actually label the classes as easy, medium, and hard. Why does everythign have to be balanced and fair. Nothing else in this world is. Why in the world should games be?

    Well I guess they could start by labeling the ones here. Beyond that in those other games if you play said hard class to the best of your ability it should still be on par "power wise" as those easy and medium classes.

    So far that case does not hold true in GW2. Playing the hard classes actually means playing the underpowered/gimped class in some situations.

    We have already hit a point in the game where people are being flat out denied entry into dungeons because, players do not wish to carry them. Not because they are a bad player mind you, but because their class is a liablity to the success of their dungeon run. 

  • TruthXHurtsTruthXHurts El Do, KSPosts: 1,555Member
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    Originally posted by TruthXHurts
    I can't name a specific title, but some games actually label the classes as easy, medium, and hard. Why does everythign have to be balanced and fair. Nothing else in this world is. Why in the world should games be?

    Well I guess they could start by labeling the ones here. Beyond that in those other games if you play said hard class to the best of your ability it should still be on par "power wise" as those easy and medium classes.

    So far that case does not hold true in GW2. Playing the hard classes actually means playing the underpowered/gimped class in some situations.

    We have already hit a point in the game where people are being flat out denied entry into dungeons because, players do not wish to carry them. Not because they are a bad player mind you, but because their class is a liablity to the success of their dungeon run. 

    That is a trash WoW mentality, and part of the downfall of MMO's in general. These elitist prick teenagers need to be beaten by their parents. I used to play a Ranger on EQ1 so don't tell me about gimped classes. I never had a problem finding a group even though many classes were better.

    "I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  • JackdogJackdog Charleston, SCPosts: 6,344Member

    For most it easier to blame the game than admit they just lack the paitience or motor skills to play a class. If you think you can just stand in one spot and spam the #1 key and live then don't blame the game design. I hate to say it but go back to a MMO that allows you to do that or play a tank class instead of requesting the developers dumb the game down to your level.

    I had a situation that killed my thief a dozen or more times yesterday doing the personal story but I am willing ot bet there was a trick to that instance I missed.It took me about ten deaths of doing the SOS before I adpated and tried some new tactics which finally allowed me to finish it. Still  died a couple of times but I get her done

    I miss DAoC

  • ThorbrandThorbrand West Palm Beach, FLPosts: 1,198Member

    I really don't understand this post. Now of course every class does not play the same so we can never expect that to happen. But every class in the game is powerful when played with a DPS build and all the classes have builds for almost any role you want to play. Yes GW2 does have roles.

    Theif kills 1v1 faster than anything else in the game. Warriors are AOE monsters.

    Given that I can make my Gaurdian a AOE monster and or 1v1 specialist. You can do that with any class. Even set them up for support.

    One class requires different tactics when playing over the other but they are as balanced as you will ever see in a game without us all being clones.

  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,041Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TruthXHurts
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    Originally posted by TruthXHurts
    I can't name a specific title, but some games actually label the classes as easy, medium, and hard. Why does everythign have to be balanced and fair. Nothing else in this world is. Why in the world should games be?

    Well I guess they could start by labeling the ones here. Beyond that in those other games if you play said hard class to the best of your ability it should still be on par "power wise" as those easy and medium classes.

    So far that case does not hold true in GW2. Playing the hard classes actually means playing the underpowered/gimped class in some situations.

    We have already hit a point in the game where people are being flat out denied entry into dungeons because, players do not wish to carry them. Not because they are a bad player mind you, but because their class is a liablity to the success of their dungeon run. 

    That is a trash WoW mentality, and part of the downfall of MMO's in general. These elitist prick teenagers need to be beaten by their parents. I used to play a Ranger on EQ1 so don't tell me about gimped classes.

    -shrug- That might be true, but we both know it is not going away. Every class needs to bring "something" to the table. I'm not saying we all need to be the same, but no class needs to be in a state where it becomes unwanted. 

  • TruthXHurtsTruthXHurts El Do, KSPosts: 1,555Member
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    Originally posted by TruthXHurts
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    Originally posted by TruthXHurts
    I can't name a specific title, but some games actually label the classes as easy, medium, and hard. Why does everythign have to be balanced and fair. Nothing else in this world is. Why in the world should games be?

    Well I guess they could start by labeling the ones here. Beyond that in those other games if you play said hard class to the best of your ability it should still be on par "power wise" as those easy and medium classes.

    So far that case does not hold true in GW2. Playing the hard classes actually means playing the underpowered/gimped class in some situations.

    We have already hit a point in the game where people are being flat out denied entry into dungeons because, players do not wish to carry them. Not because they are a bad player mind you, but because their class is a liablity to the success of their dungeon run. 

    That is a trash WoW mentality, and part of the downfall of MMO's in general. These elitist prick teenagers need to be beaten by their parents. I used to play a Ranger on EQ1 so don't tell me about gimped classes.

    -shrug- That might be true, but we both know it is not going away. Every class needs to bring "something" to the table. I'm not saying we all need to be the same, but no class needs to be in a state where it becomes unwanted. 

    No thanks I'm happy using my superior skill to survive in a hostile world. I don't want to mindlessly mash hotbuttons and breeze through content. 

    "I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  • HorrorScopeHorrorScope Norcal, CAPosts: 612Member
    Not surprinsing, since they made an entire skill systems change in the early BWE's. It's going to take time to get it all gel'in.
  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by Jackdog

    For most it easier to blame the game than admit they just lack the paitience or motor skills to play a class. If you think you can just stand in one spot and spam the #1 key and live then don't blame the game design. I hate to say it but go back to a MMO that allows you to do that or play a tank class instead of requesting the developers dumb the game down to your level.

    I had a situation that killed my thief a dozen or more times yesterday doing the personal story but I am willing ot bet there was a trick to that instance I missed.It took me about ten deaths of doing the SOS before I adpated and tried some new tactics which finally allowed me to finish it. Still  died a couple of times but I get her done

    I had the same issue with my Norn warrior in a personal instance. Then I went ranged attack and got through quite easily. Sometimes one needs to step back and rethink things, rather than continually bashing your head against the wall. The latter makes your headache and a game unejoyable, the former just some thought.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,041Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TruthXHurts
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    Originally posted by TruthXHurts
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    Originally posted by TruthXHurts
    I can't name a specific title, but some games actually label the classes as easy, medium, and hard. Why does everythign have to be balanced and fair. Nothing else in this world is. Why in the world should games be?

    Well I guess they could start by labeling the ones here. Beyond that in those other games if you play said hard class to the best of your ability it should still be on par "power wise" as those easy and medium classes.

    So far that case does not hold true in GW2. Playing the hard classes actually means playing the underpowered/gimped class in some situations.

    We have already hit a point in the game where people are being flat out denied entry into dungeons because, players do not wish to carry them. Not because they are a bad player mind you, but because their class is a liablity to the success of their dungeon run. 

    That is a trash WoW mentality, and part of the downfall of MMO's in general. These elitist prick teenagers need to be beaten by their parents. I used to play a Ranger on EQ1 so don't tell me about gimped classes.

    -shrug- That might be true, but we both know it is not going away. Every class needs to bring "something" to the table. I'm not saying we all need to be the same, but no class needs to be in a state where it becomes unwanted. 

    No thanks I'm happy using my superior skill to survive in a hostile world. I don't want to mindlessly mash hotbuttons and breeze through content. 

    The rotations and the way attunements work will undoubtedly stay relatively the same. However, you can rest assured that there will be further adjustments made to this class and others. It plays different from BWE2 than it does now and will likely play differently a month or two from now. Anet has already stated that they are letting the meta game set in before they make adjustments and more and more players are hitting 80, getting exotics and giving feedback. To many people like to chalk things up and point fingers about unskilled players. Well when people start doing "math" and giving real metrics, solid feedback (if it be positive or negative) Anet listens quietly. People that played GW1 know this and know it well. They nerfed, buffed and renerfed things for years on that game. Ultimately it is unavoidable and if you think everything about balance in "a-ok" right now, good for you... Go back it up on the official forms with real data, because there are a mountain of players with similar experiences in pve and Spvp. 

    One thing needs to be made very clear if nothing else. Anet does care about balance. They hold tournaments in Spvp and these tournaments often carry with them rewards that include real life cash. 

  • TruthXHurtsTruthXHurts El Do, KSPosts: 1,555Member
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    Originally posted by TruthXHurts
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    Originally posted by TruthXHurts
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    Originally posted by TruthXHurts
    I can't name a specific title, but some games actually label the classes as easy, medium, and hard. Why does everythign have to be balanced and fair. Nothing else in this world is. Why in the world should games be?

    Well I guess they could start by labeling the ones here. Beyond that in those other games if you play said hard class to the best of your ability it should still be on par "power wise" as those easy and medium classes.

    So far that case does not hold true in GW2. Playing the hard classes actually means playing the underpowered/gimped class in some situations.

    We have already hit a point in the game where people are being flat out denied entry into dungeons because, players do not wish to carry them. Not because they are a bad player mind you, but because their class is a liablity to the success of their dungeon run. 

    That is a trash WoW mentality, and part of the downfall of MMO's in general. These elitist prick teenagers need to be beaten by their parents. I used to play a Ranger on EQ1 so don't tell me about gimped classes.

    -shrug- That might be true, but we both know it is not going away. Every class needs to bring "something" to the table. I'm not saying we all need to be the same, but no class needs to be in a state where it becomes unwanted. 

    No thanks I'm happy using my superior skill to survive in a hostile world. I don't want to mindlessly mash hotbuttons and breeze through content. 

    The rotations and the way attunements work will undoubtedly stay relatively the same. However, you can rest assured that there will be further adjustments made to this class and others. It plays different from BWE2 than it does now and will likely play differently a month or two from now. Anet has already stated that they are letting the meta game set in before they make adjustments and more and more players are hitting 80, getting exotics and giving feedback. To many people like to chalk things up and point fingers about unskilled players. Well when people start doing "math" and giving real metrics, solid feedback (if it be positive or negative) Anet listens quietly. People that played GW1 know this and know it well. They nerfed, buffed and renerfed things for years on that game. Ultimately it is unavoidable and if you think everything about balance in "a-ok" right now, good for you... Go back it up on the official forms with real data, because there are a mountain of players with similar experiences in pve and Spvp. 

    One thing needs to be made very clear if nothing else. Anet does care about balance. They hold tournaments in Spvp and this tournaments often carry with them rewards that include real life cash. 

    I don't participate in any form of arena pvp so balance is not that important to me.

    "I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,041Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TruthXHurts
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    Originally posted by TruthXHurts
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    Originally posted by TruthXHurts
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    Originally posted by TruthXHurts
    I can't name a specific title, but some games actually label the classes as easy, medium, and hard. Why does everythign have to be balanced and fair. Nothing else in this world is. Why in the world should games be?

    Well I guess they could start by labeling the ones here. Beyond that in those other games if you play said hard class to the best of your ability it should still be on par "power wise" as those easy and medium classes.

    So far that case does not hold true in GW2. Playing the hard classes actually means playing the underpowered/gimped class in some situations.

    We have already hit a point in the game where people are being flat out denied entry into dungeons because, players do not wish to carry them. Not because they are a bad player mind you, but because their class is a liablity to the success of their dungeon run. 

    That is a trash WoW mentality, and part of the downfall of MMO's in general. These elitist prick teenagers need to be beaten by their parents. I used to play a Ranger on EQ1 so don't tell me about gimped classes.

    -shrug- That might be true, but we both know it is not going away. Every class needs to bring "something" to the table. I'm not saying we all need to be the same, but no class needs to be in a state where it becomes unwanted. 

    No thanks I'm happy using my superior skill to survive in a hostile world. I don't want to mindlessly mash hotbuttons and breeze through content. 

    The rotations and the way attunements work will undoubtedly stay relatively the same. However, you can rest assured that there will be further adjustments made to this class and others. It plays different from BWE2 than it does now and will likely play differently a month or two from now. Anet has already stated that they are letting the meta game set in before they make adjustments and more and more players are hitting 80, getting exotics and giving feedback. To many people like to chalk things up and point fingers about unskilled players. Well when people start doing "math" and giving real metrics, solid feedback (if it be positive or negative) Anet listens quietly. People that played GW1 know this and know it well. They nerfed, buffed and renerfed things for years on that game. Ultimately it is unavoidable and if you think everything about balance in "a-ok" right now, good for you... Go back it up on the official forms with real data, because there are a mountain of players with similar experiences in pve and Spvp. 

    One thing needs to be made very clear if nothing else. Anet does care about balance. They hold tournaments in Spvp and this tournaments often carry with them rewards that include real life cash. 

    I don't participate in any form of arena pvp so balance is not that important to me.

     

    That is fine, you are entitled to play how you want. The thing is there is not a seperate system for pve/wvw and the only difference with Spvp is you get instant gear. All of them use the same weapons, the same stats and the same skill systems. So like past games my friend, everything that do to adjust wvw/spvp is going to directly impact pve as well. It does say Guild Wars on the box and just like the first game.. PVP is a larger player here than it is with most MMO titles. 

    -shrug- 

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member
    Originally posted by Jackdog
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Having a blast with mesmers in PvE. I think people make the mistake of trying to keep their clones alive rather than treat them like the little portable effect bombs they are. There are some great traits you should (subjective) be selecting for your clones that have "when the clone is destroyed" tied to them.

    heh my mesmer feels overpowered if anything LOL. That class is a kiters dream class. Damn mob (s) never knows where I am

    If you haven't yet, grab the major trait that causes clones to apply cripple when destroyed. Good times, good times. image

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • The_KorriganThe_Korrigan EastPosts: 2,630Member

    Seriously, this is nothing new. In all MMORPGs, old or new, some classes are easier to solo than others. And usually, the "tankish" classes are the best, closely followed by the pet classes when they have "tankish" pets.

    It's kinda normal... if you are a warrior, wearing heavy armor and specced in defense, you will be able to take more damage that your fellow clothie.

    If you wonder why I don't answer your posts, it's most likely because you are on my block list - so don't waste your time.

    image

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