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Themeparks are beyond saving. I finally get it.

GamerUntouchGamerUntouch smithville ON, ONPosts: 488Member

It hit me like a brick wall reading the GW2 forums.

People were complaining about lack of "progression".

Now, this thread isn't about GW2, but I was confused.

 

There's no real progression in any of these games, you don't grow your character, your deal more damage and for balance, the bosses get more health. It's frivilous and pointless.

It hit me then, it's the skinner box.

The subgenre is controlled by it. In fact, all games are.

 

You get that rush when you do something, when you complete something, when you get something.

MMOs have cheapened it to giving big numbers out like halloween candy, because people can't complete something hard.

To keep people subbed you gotta keep handing out that candy, increase stats, make them feel like they're progressing.

 

Imagine if they gave nothing at all. You just finished the boss and "poof" you're done.

You think anyone would play it?

 

The subgenre is built on this, it's a core concept that can't change and that's a shame.

 

 

 

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Comments

  • TobiasGreyTobiasGrey Worcester, MAPosts: 166Member

    [mod edit]

    What I used to like about leveling up is the new abilities I'd get. In EQ you got tons of toys to play with, but combat and non combat related.

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Brandon, FLPosts: 3,649Member
    It's not really just a themepark thing.  It's a gamer thing.  They're munchkins... if you're familiar with the old term.

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon

    What a bunch of nonsense! Now excuse me while i post a picture of my coffee on facebook and write "mmm coffeeeee", then grab a quick asian salad from mcdonalds and drive in my hybrid over to another anti establishment rally. Ill upload a video of it later with some dixie chicks playing in the background and tag it "obama aids fail" so more people will watch it.

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by Eir_S
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey

    Well, yeah. Themeparks entertain very very simple people usually.

    This is a documented fact.  Just like sandboxes appeal to intellectuals, scientists, geniuses and other "deep" sorts.

    Seriously, what a stupid thing to post, I hope you feel bad.

    Why would I feel bad? Average player of WoW is a 9 year old kid. Simple games don't attract gamers looking for depth.

    A.) You didn't say WoW, you said Themeparks.

    B.) Where is the statistical data that the average player of any MMO is 9 years old, to say nothing of WoW?

    C.) Your second post was as laughably ignorant as your first.  Give it up.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,590Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GamerUntouch

    It hit me like a brick wall reading the GW2 forums.

    People were complaining about lack of "progression".

    Now, this thread isn't about GW2, but I was confused.

     

    There's no real progression in any of these games, you don't grow your character, your deal more damage and for balance, the bosses get more health. It's frivilous and pointless.

    It hit me then, it's the skinner box.

    The subgenre is controlled by it. In fact, all games are.

     

    You get that rush when you do something, when you complete something, when you get something.

    MMOs have cheapened it to giving big numbers out like halloween candy, because people can't complete something hard.

    To keep people subbed you gotta keep handing out that candy, increase stats, make them feel like they're progressing.

     

    Imagine if they gave nothing at all. You just finished the boss and "poof" you're done.

    You think anyone would play it?

     

    The subgenre is built on this, it's a core concept that can't change and that's a shame.

     

     

     

    There is hope for the genre.

    The 1st thing devs need to do is stop listeneing to players tell them what they want. By and large, players want instant gratification and that has killed the genre.

    What they need to do is some homework. Find a balance between what someone is willing to work for vs an appropriate reward factor for a job well done. And options options options. When you think you've given players too many options, give them more.

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,928Member Uncommon
    Progression was my biggest concern but I bought the game anyway.  I don't really feel the drive for exotics or legendaries and so I do see it as an issue.  I'm not sure why I would buy gems for cash.
  • HomituHomitu Hometown, HIPosts: 2,030Member
    Originally posted by Eir_S
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey

    Well, yeah. Themeparks entertain very very simple people usually.

    This is a documented fact.  Just like sandboxes appeal to intellectuals, scientists, geniuses and other "deep" sorts.

    Seriously, what a stupid thing to post, I hope you feel bad.

    Step 1: insult group A. 

    Step 2: imply that I am not affiliated with group A in any way. 

    Step 3: believe that others have now inferred not only that I do not posess any of the negative qualities I have caused them to associate with group A but also that I am, in fact, the embodied antithesis of those negative qualities.

    Step 4: bask in the satisfaction of glorious self-aggrandizement.  

  • DarkmothDarkmoth Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 174Member
    Originally posted by GamerUntouch

    It hit me like a brick wall reading the GW2 forums.

    People were complaining about lack of "progression".

    Now, this thread isn't about GW2, but I was confused.

    There's no real progression in any of these games, you don't grow your character, your deal more damage and for balance, the bosses get more health. It's frivilous and pointless.

    It hit me then, it's the skinner box.

    The subgenre is controlled by it. In fact, all games are.

    You get that rush when you do something, when you complete something, when you get something.

    MMOs have cheapened it to giving big numbers out like halloween candy, because people can't complete something hard.

    To keep people subbed you gotta keep handing out that candy, increase stats, make them feel like they're progressing.

    Imagine if they gave nothing at all. You just finished the boss and "poof" you're done.

    You think anyone would play it?

    The subgenre is built on this, it's a core concept that can't change and that's a shame.

    Honestly man, you say that as if it's gospel, but not everyone feels that way. It took me 9 tries to beat one of the Jedi Knight bosses in SWTOR. You know what I felt when he went down? "DAMN, I hope I don't have to do THAT again!".

    Not everyone plays games to get a "rush", that's a specific goal of a specific type of person. Personally, I'd say I lean more towards playing RPGs for the vicarious enjoyment of shooting fire from my fingertips. Different strokes.

  • SchwaSchwa Lakewood, OHPosts: 29Member

    I have fun palying one type of game.

    You have fun playing another type of game.

    We are both correct.

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member

    Welcome to my world, brother.  I've been preaching about this for years.  Can I get an amen?  

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    OP

    I would like to hear how you would fix the problem. I read the issue you have with games that reward you doing an activity by making you stronger at that activity but what method doesn't do that? Even skill based systems give you more points for completing a task therefore making you more proficient at that task.

    A good system doesn't pigeonhole you with your own progression. That's the key. Skill based systems and, in fact, GW2 accomplish this.
  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member
    Originally posted by GamerUntouch

    It hit me like a brick wall reading the GW2 forums.

    People were complaining about lack of "progression".

    Now, this thread isn't about GW2, but I was confused.

     

    There's no real progression in any of these games, you don't grow your character, your deal more damage and for balance, the bosses get more health. It's frivilous and pointless.

    It hit me then, it's the skinner box.

    The subgenre is controlled by it. In fact, all games are.

     

    You get that rush when you do something, when you complete something, when you get something.

    MMOs have cheapened it to giving big numbers out like halloween candy, because people can't complete something hard.

    To keep people subbed you gotta keep handing out that candy, increase stats, make them feel like they're progressing.

     

    Imagine if they gave nothing at all. You just finished the boss and "poof" you're done.

    You think anyone would play it?

     

    The subgenre is built on this, it's a core concept that can't change and that's a shame.

     

     

     

    Thats the main draw of a Sandbox since their is usually a never ending endgame based on either horizontal progression or immense time sinks.  Dont think we would ever see a game that took years to reach max level like in Asherons Call but one can dream.  The biggest deterrent developers need to consider when making extra long leveling progression or general progression is there shouldnt be a huge advantage between the differing player types.  GW2 comes as close to this as possible for themeparks but it still isnt quite the way I would design an MMO.  What I mean is say as an example Asherons Call has 275 levels but true endgame starts around level 75 for entry to most game types and level 125 for all types.  The difference between a 125 character and a level 275 is about 8 billion experience but only about 5% stat differences.  I am sure that wouldnt go over with the WoW kiddies these days but for old time MMO's that was the norm.

     

    In AC, I could tackle a creature or boss 100 levels over my level if I was skilled enough and that is where sandboxes really start to shine IMO.

    Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

    Playing: GW2
    Waiting on: TESO
    Next Flop: Planetside 2
    Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.

    image

  • blognorgblognorg Roseburg, ORPosts: 643Member

    Not again. Honestly. The "Skinner Box" is thrown around way too much these days. Most people don't really even understand it. Skinner's box studied a very specific facet of operant conditioning. Calling something a Skinner Box (unless it is a Skinner Box) is just wrong. Video games which are accused of being a Skinner Box, if anything, are classical conditioning. Also, people enjoy the game that they play most of the time. In almost every case I've whiteness, people that still play a game which they're not having fun is for social obligations. While I've never gotten into WoW, I've had several roommates, and known many other people have were/are. A few of them stopped having fun at some point, but continued to play because their guild needed them. I'm not picking on WoW here, it's just the example that I have personally witnessed. Most people I know (including myself) stop playing when they're not having fun. On occasion, some people play a game they are sick of, because they're bored, and are just looking for something, anything, to do. I've actually spoken to several certified psychologists about the Skinner Box and gaming, and none of them feel that analogy is accurate.

  • ThanesThanes St. Augustine, FLPosts: 182Member
    Originally posted by Foomerang

    What a bunch of nonsense! Now excuse me while i post a picture of my coffee on facebook and write "mmm coffeeeee", then grab a quick asian salad from mcdonalds and drive in my hybrid over to another anti establishment rally. Ill upload a video of it later with some dixie chicks playing in the background and tag it "obama aids fail" so more people will watch it.

    haha, that's pretty good.  I'm not sure how it relates but its the most entertaining part of this thread for me.

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    Originally posted by GamerUntouch

    You get that rush when you do something, when you complete something, when you get something.

     

    Perhaps the most desirable fantasy in this day and age is to be able to show up, do a job competently and collect a paycheck.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    3/10

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • GamerUntouchGamerUntouch smithville ON, ONPosts: 488Member
    Originally posted by Aelious
    OP

    I would like to hear how you would fix the problem. I read the issue you have with games that reward you doing an activity by making you stronger at that activity but what method doesn't do that? Even skill based systems give you more points for completing a task therefore making you more proficient at that task.

    A good system doesn't pigeonhole you with your own progression. That's the key. Skill based systems and, in fact, GW2 accomplish this.

    I can't fix it.

    No one can.

     

    That's the point.

    Every game does this to a point, but MMOs have made the entire game just this little rush.

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    I think the players take equal blame. If you designed a system that forced a slow progress it would be lamented as too grindy. In the end I think a very broad and less oppressive progression is best IMO. Multiple paths and a little freedom. Also, you can't have one focal point in the end for everyone. Each "path" should have it's own purpose for progressing. It's tough to create original play what there are thousands playing lol.
  • ThillianThillian BratislavaPosts: 3,143Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GamerUntouch

    It hit me like a brick wall reading the GW2 forums.

    People were complaining about lack of "progression".

    Now, this thread isn't about GW2, but I was confused.

     

    There's no real progression in any of these games, you don't grow your character, your deal more damage and for balance, the bosses get more health. It's frivilous and pointless.

    It hit me then, it's the skinner box.

    The subgenre is controlled by it. In fact, all games are.

     

    You get that rush when you do something, when you complete something, when you get something.

    MMOs have cheapened it to giving big numbers out like halloween candy, because people can't complete something hard.

    To keep people subbed you gotta keep handing out that candy, increase stats, make them feel like they're progressing.

     

    Imagine if they gave nothing at all. You just finished the boss and "poof" you're done.

    You think anyone would play it?

     

    The subgenre is built on this, it's a core concept that can't change and that's a shame.

     

     

     

    In-game character progression is the primary definition of RPG.

    RPG is built around it. If you don't have character progression, it no longer is RPG.

    And no, don't tell me that story or dialogues makes RPG. That's the adventure genre about (which I like as well).

    Complaining about lack of real character progression in a game which tries to be a mmoRPG actually makes sense.

    REALITY CHECK

  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Nevada, MOPosts: 2,732Member
    Originally posted by maplestone
    Originally posted by GamerUntouch

    You get that rush when you do something, when you complete something, when you get something.

     

    Perhaps the most desirable fantasy in this day and age is to be able to show up, do a job competently and collect a paycheck.

    Ah, Unicorn work-ethic. You just can't beat it. image

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,978Member Uncommon

    It depends on what you mean with beyond saving, but you do have a point.

    I blame D&D. D&D is a lot more gear focused than any other P&P RPG and it also uses the really simplified level progression.

    A good day in anoher P&P RPG is usually when you achive one of your goal (finding the mad cultist murdering people in an attempt to summon Cthulu, uncover who is beyond the plot against the king, plan and rob the bank in Tombstone or whatever). Sometimes you might get something, but I have been playing entire campaigns with my starting gear.

    You play those games to have fun and to solve problems, not to constantly get rewarded. We are talking about games like Runequest, Amber, Call of Cthulhu, Vampire, ARS Magica, Shadowrun and so on.

    But sadly it seems like D&D is the only popular game in the US and it is the only MMO influencing the MMO genre. So we miss a lot because of that.

    In D&D a days of gaming is a failure unless you gain some gear or XP ("To murder is silver but XP is gold", old D&D saying).

    That does not mean you cant have fun with MMO, I played a bunch of them but it do means we miss a lot of the best parts of RPGing. Many people here believe RPG means XP + loot and that just aint true.

  • ThillianThillian BratislavaPosts: 3,143Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loke666

    It depends on what you mean with beyond saving, but you do have a point.

    I blame D&D. D&D is a lot more gear focused than any other P&P RPG and it also uses the really simplified level progression.

    A good day in anoher P&P RPG is usually when you achive one of your goal (finding the mad cultist murdering people in an attempt to summon Cthulu, uncover who is beyond the plot against the king, plan and rob the bank in Tombstone or whatever). Sometimes you might get something, but I have been playing entire campaigns with my starting gear.

    You play those games to have fun and to solve problems, not to constantly get rewarded. We are talking about games like Runequest, Amber, Call of Cthulhu, Vampire, ARS Magica, Shadowrun and so on.

    But sadly it seems like D&D is the only popular game in the US and it is the only MMO influencing the MMO genre. So we miss a lot because of that.

    In D&D a days of gaming is a failure unless you gain some gear or XP ("To murder is silver but XP is gold", old D&D saying).

    That does not mean you cant have fun with MMO, I played a bunch of them but it do means we miss a lot of the best parts of RPGing. Many people here believe RPG means XP + loot and that just aint true.

    And they are right to believe so. That's how first pen and paper came to be. First edition of D&D was all about one dungeon, one villain, character progression and chests full of loot.

    It was later, when different kinds (subgenres) of pnp RPGs were created (like CoC, V:tM or GURPS).  I do like CoC or V;TM as well much more than D&D, but those are rather story-telling pnp games than pnp RPGs. Story-telling game is a different genre to RPG.

    "The most popular modern storytelling games originated as a sub-genre of  RPGs where the game rules and statistics are heavily de-emphasised in favor of creating a believable story and immersive experience for all involved."

     

    REALITY CHECK

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,978Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Thillian
    Originally posted by Loke666

    It depends on what you mean with beyond saving, but you do have a point.

    I blame D&D. D&D is a lot more gear focused than any other P&P RPG and it also uses the really simplified level progression.

    A good day in anoher P&P RPG is usually when you achive one of your goal (finding the mad cultist murdering people in an attempt to summon Cthulu, uncover who is beyond the plot against the king, plan and rob the bank in Tombstone or whatever). Sometimes you might get something, but I have been playing entire campaigns with my starting gear.

    You play those games to have fun and to solve problems, not to constantly get rewarded. We are talking about games like Runequest, Amber, Call of Cthulhu, Vampire, ARS Magica, Shadowrun and so on.

    But sadly it seems like D&D is the only popular game in the US and it is the only MMO influencing the MMO genre. So we miss a lot because of that.

    In D&D a days of gaming is a failure unless you gain some gear or XP ("To murder is silver but XP is gold", old D&D saying).

    That does not mean you cant have fun with MMO, I played a bunch of them but it do means we miss a lot of the best parts of RPGing. Many people here believe RPG means XP + loot and that just aint true.

    And they are right to believe so. That's how first pen and paper came to be. First edition of D&D was all about one dungeon, one villain, character progression and chests full of loot.

    It was later, when different kinds of pnp RPGs were created (like CoC, V:tM or GURPS).  I do like CoC or V;TM as well much more than D&D, but those are rather story-telling pnp games than pnp RPGs. Story-telling games is a different genre to RPG.

    Kinda, D&D is based on Chainmail which you can say was the first RPG game. But the genre have moved forward a lot since then and baseing all computer RPGs on a single game is a huge misstake, there is a lot more to RPG than just D&D and that was my point (not that D&D aint a RPG or something).

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,996Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Thillian
    Originally posted by GamerUntouch

    It hit me like a brick wall reading the GW2 forums.

    People were complaining about lack of "progression".

    Now, this thread isn't about GW2, but I was confused.

     

    There's no real progression in any of these games, you don't grow your character, your deal more damage and for balance, the bosses get more health. It's frivilous and pointless.

    It hit me then, it's the skinner box.

    The subgenre is controlled by it. In fact, all games are.

     

    You get that rush when you do something, when you complete something, when you get something.

    MMOs have cheapened it to giving big numbers out like halloween candy, because people can't complete something hard.

    To keep people subbed you gotta keep handing out that candy, increase stats, make them feel like they're progressing.

    Imagine if they gave nothing at all. You just finished the boss and "poof" you're done.

    You think anyone would play it?

    The subgenre is built on this, it's a core concept that can't change and that's a shame.

    In-game character progression is the primary definition of RPG.

    RPG is built around it. If you don't have character progression, it no longer is RPG.

    And no, don't tell me that story or dialogues makes RPG. That's the adventure genre about (which I like as well).

    Complaining about lack of real character progression in a game which tries to be a mmoRPG actually makes sense.

    I have to concur, MMORPG's in the traditional sense are all about character progression, without it you really have some other type of MMO. 

    One of my real objections to GW2 is that fact that for the most part character progression (in terms of power) comes to a halt at some point relatively quickly, which makes it some sort of action MMO rather than what is expected/accepted of a standard MMORPG.

    So I guess I'm saying I like the skinner box, it's why I play MMORPGs and in fact, once I feel like I'm no longer working towards meaningful (useful) progression, I quickly lose interest in a title.

    I don't think theme parks are really the problem, its the end game design of most current titles that is at fault.  Endless gear grinding to enable you to do more endless gear grinding seems to lack any real sense of purpose.

    Bring back MMORPG's where the end game is centered around castle seiging, territory/resource control and denial, and PVP with a real sense of pride (see Lineage 1, Lineage 2, DAOC, Shadowbane for best examples) on a large scale and you'll see an improvement in player retention over the long haul.  (IMO)

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • rounnerrounner CanberraPosts: 603Member Uncommon
    I disagree that progression is the be all and end all of RPG. Id happily welcome a game like Myst where exploration and discovering secret passages and mazes was a focus. Besides plenty of players just play mmo's for the pvp with little game play differentiation from an fps.
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