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ANET commentary on patched dungeons

NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common

https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/dungeons/Dungeon-Updates

JonPeters, Game Designer

Hey all, it is my fault the updates to those 3 dungeon chains did not get into to the notes. There is a lot going on right now and as we establish our patch process sometimes things will slip through the cracks. I wanted to shed some light on the dungeon speed clear stuff as well.

 

You should not see any diminished returns unless you.

1) Run the same exact chain over twice in a row
2) Complete multiple dungeons in 30 minutes or less each.

We also reduced the rewards of completing story mode, once you have already completed it, because the rewards for story mode were never intended to be a high as they were.

At this time, dungeons should one of the most efficient ways to level and get gold, and it is not our intention to make them feel like a grind. This is a very large game, and we have a lot of people playing it in many different ways. Right now we are working hard to make sure there are not any ways for players to circumvent the normal rewards in the game and then we will be able to look at the actual rewards and make sure they require a reasonable amount of investment.

Dungeons are meant to be difficult and we will continue to update them to try and reach a point where the time invested to XP/Gold/Tokens is similar for each dungeon. Some right now are just too easy to complete while others may be too hard. Moving forward we will try and post more clear change notes for those dungeons we do fix.

Thanks for your feedback, we really appreciate your desire to help us keep improving on the game.

Jon

Comments

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,962Member Uncommon

    Good, the dungeons are the part that needs most work right now.

    Havnt ran any today though so I dunno how much they fixed.

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common

    seen on dev tracker

    https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/info/devtracker

     

    https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/dungeons/Dungeon-Updates/page/3#post154925

    Jon Peters

    Let me clarify the change a bit since not everyone understands it.

    If you run the exact same chain twice in a row you will have your rewards cut. This means you can bounce back and forth between 2 different chains, even in the same dungeon without ever hitting this change. This change is made to encourage people to try different chains.

    If you speed clear dungeons at a rate of more than 2/ hour, and continue to do that for some time your rewards will slowly begin to degrade. It doesn't kick in after running a single dungeon and it doesn't immediately zero out rewards.

    Finally we reduced the value of repeating the story mode, because they are built to be easier and we want to encourage those repeating dungeons to run explore mode.

     

    COF Buff

    https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/dungeons/The-CoF-Buff-My-opinions/page/2#post158017

    Robert Hrouda Content Designer

    Hey folks, I’ve been reading this thread for a bit and figured I’d come weigh in on things. I built this dungeon, and fixed the problem, so I’m going to come at you from the designer perspective on things to try and illuminate why I did what I did, and what exactly I did. It wasn’t made clear, and I apologize for that.


    The main thing I am seeing, is that people are upset that I took away their super profitable low risk, fast, token grind. I did not go into this thinking everyone would be happy with my changes – I knew I would be upsetting people because I was taking away a super easy speed-run money printer.


    I took it away for a few reasons – chief among them being what I feel is taking advantage of a couple bugs found in the same chain, and our leashing/aggro system. I played with groups who did this, and watched you-tube clips of what was going on.

    The problems I identified with the speed run aspect of this are as follows:
    1. You just need 1 person to get to the magmacyte across the magma field. This will cause an invulnerable Magg to run across the entire field through mobs and progress the dungeon. Then this person teleports back.
    2. Instead of fighting the enemies in a timed event at he door buster, you just circle strafe them or leash aggro them to “kill the clock” since it was only a 100 second timer on the event.
    3. Final Boss encounter isn’t threatening.


    So what did I do?
    1. I made it so that Magg has to get to the other side of the Magma field and close to the magmacyte – not just a player. Magg not taking aggro from nearby enemies was a big reason for this issue to be resolved. By giving him aggro, and forcing you to escort him to the ending, I fixed what I considered to be a bug/exploit that I introduced through poor planning.
    2. I extended the time from 100 seconds to 200 seconds at the Door Buster event. I intended for you to fight those guys, not circle strafe them and aggro leash chain them. I also added 1 additional mob to the encounter at the very middle (a bow dude) to account for you now having twice the time to defeat the waves that come in.
    3. I made the fireballs hurt more. Not greatly more – they’ll do about 3-4k damage to a DPS focused player, but you should have anywhere between 15k-25k HP, so there’s a bit of wiggle room for error.

    I made this path hard, because it was easy. It’s an explorable dungeon path, and they should be hard. Wearing the flame legion armor set should be a symbol of what you went through to obtain something. It should mean something. Right now it means you did 40 speedruns in 2 days.


    I hope this helps a bit, but I understand you’re upset. For all it’s worth I’m sorry, and I hope we can move past this.

  • birdycephonbirdycephon Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 1,314Member
    Bravo.
  • eggy08eggy08 erie, PAPosts: 525Member
    Honestly the posts on "nerfing income" are pathetic. All they did was make it so you would experience all aspects of the dungeons rather than being forced by groups to run the farm mode one instead. Thats not fun, I'm not getting to do the whole game, I'm doing trivial things that take no time just for money, woo.
  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 8,063Member

    REDUCED reward? Heck, the story dungeons gave TRASH compared to the effort and a death rate was astronomic. Do they want to drive EVERYONE away from the dungeons?

    Whats wrong with you guys? Story dungeon IS TOO DIFFICULT. Period. That's what you have story vs hardcore mode for!

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • eggy08eggy08 erie, PAPosts: 525Member
    Originally posted by Elikal

    REDUCED reward? Heck, the story dungeons gave TRASH compared to the effort and a death rate was astronomic. Do they want to drive EVERYONE away from the dungeons?

    Whats wrong with you guys? Story dungeon IS TOO DIFFICULT. Period. That's what you have story vs hardcore mode for!

    You do realize that they are only nerfing them for the people who spam them for the money aspect right?

  • TobiasGreyTobiasGrey Worcester, MAPosts: 166Member
    I hope they don't add anymore instances into the game.
  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by eggy08
    Originally posted by Elikal

    REDUCED reward? Heck, the story dungeons gave TRASH compared to the effort and a death rate was astronomic. Do they want to drive EVERYONE away from the dungeons?

    Whats wrong with you guys? Story dungeon IS TOO DIFFICULT. Period. That's what you have story vs hardcore mode for!

    You do realize that they are only nerfing them for the people who spam them for the money aspect right?

    probably not.. most people probably just saw dungeon reward nerf and jumped to conclusions without actually seeing what they did.. 

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • chryseschryses LondonPosts: 1,453Member Uncommon

    On a side note I am seriously impressed with the communication coming out of Anet right now.  Normally there is a holy veil that covers the developers/company and it forces the player base to swap gossip and tidbits of info someone gets from a family member who sweeps the floors of the developers office.

    I feel more companies should be out there discussing their product like Anet does.  As a gamer and consumer of their game/product, it gives me confidence. 

     

  • XiaokiXiaoki White Pigeon, MIPosts: 2,602Member Uncommon

    The post by Robert Hrouda is absolutely ridiculous.


    The most glaring non-factual statement
    "you should have anywhere between 15k-25k HP"

    In what world does a level 75 have upwards of 25k health.
    Someone in a full set of VIT Exotic may have just over 15k. Really goes to show you that the person that designed the Citadel of Flame dungeon has no idea what the hell he is talking about.


    "I extended the time from 100 seconds to 200 seconds at the Door Buster event. I intended for you to fight those guys, not circle strafe them and aggro leash chain them."

    Did he really expect us to fight waves and waves of Silver mobs? Really?! Theres no possible way a group can fight and win against upwards of 10 Silver mobs that are all doing attacks that can hit you for half your health.


    "I made it so that Magg has to get to the other side of the Magma field and close to the magmacyte – not just a player.
    I fixed what I considered to be a bug/exploit that I introduced through poor planning."

    You didnt fix anything. You made it worse. Magg runs through fire and lava and will run off to fight mobs that werent even aggroed. How are we supposed to escort him when his AI is completely suicidal.
    I mean, really, truly incompetent.


    The rush job, knee jerk reaction "fixes" are ruining the game.

  • eggy08eggy08 erie, PAPosts: 525Member
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

    The post by Robert Hrouda is absolutely ridiculous.


    The most glaring non-factual statement
    "you should have anywhere between 15k-25k HP"

    In what world does a level 75 have upwards of 25k health.
    Someone in a full set of VIT Exotic may have just over 15k. Really goes to show you that the person that designed the Citadel of Flame dungeon has no idea what the hell he is talking about.


    "I extended the time from 100 seconds to 200 seconds at the Door Buster event. I intended for you to fight those guys, not circle strafe them and aggro leash chain them."

    Did he really expect us to fight waves and waves of Silver mobs? Really?! Theres no possible way a group can fight and win against upwards of 10 Silver mobs that are all doing attacks that can hit you for half your health.


    "I made it so that Magg has to get to the other side of the Magma field and close to the magmacyte – not just a player.
    I fixed what I considered to be a bug/exploit that I introduced through poor planning."

    You didnt fix anything. You made it worse. Magg runs through fire and lava and will run off to fight mobs that werent even aggroed. How are we supposed to escort him when his AI is completely suicidal.
    I mean, really, truly incompetent.


    The rush job, knee jerk reaction "fixes" are ruining the game.

    But I thought dungeons were zerg rez easy modes... awww.. they are making it hard. Its about time. Can't wait till they get rid of spawning while boss is fighting as well. Will be the happiest day of my life. Only issue for me is instead of carrying around half dead bodies, I'll have to carry around full dead bodies because they cant run back.

  • Ambros123Ambros123 Neverneverland, TNPosts: 877Member
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

    The post by Robert Hrouda is absolutely ridiculous.


    The most glaring non-factual statement
    "you should have anywhere between 15k-25k HP"

    In what world does a level 75 have upwards of 25k health.
    Someone in a full set of VIT Exotic may have just over 15k. Really goes to show you that the person that designed the Citadel of Flame dungeon has no idea what the hell he is talking about.


    "I extended the time from 100 seconds to 200 seconds at the Door Buster event. I intended for you to fight those guys, not circle strafe them and aggro leash chain them."

    Did he really expect us to fight waves and waves of Silver mobs? Really?! Theres no possible way a group can fight and win against upwards of 10 Silver mobs that are all doing attacks that can hit you for half your health.


    "I made it so that Magg has to get to the other side of the Magma field and close to the magmacyte – not just a player.
    I fixed what I considered to be a bug/exploit that I introduced through poor planning."

    You didnt fix anything. You made it worse. Magg runs through fire and lava and will run off to fight mobs that werent even aggroed. How are we supposed to escort him when his AI is completely suicidal.
    I mean, really, truly incompetent.


    The rush job, knee jerk reaction "fixes" are ruining the game.

    My 75 Warr has 16.3k health with wait for it.... ZERO vitality gear nor Vit traits.  [mod edit]

  • ictownictown iowa city, IAPosts: 123Member
    Originally posted by Ambros123
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

    The post by Robert Hrouda is absolutely ridiculous.


    The most glaring non-factual statement
    "you should have anywhere between 15k-25k HP"

    In what world does a level 75 have upwards of 25k health.
    Someone in a full set of VIT Exotic may have just over 15k. Really goes to show you that the person that designed the Citadel of Flame dungeon has no idea what the hell he is talking about.


    "I extended the time from 100 seconds to 200 seconds at the Door Buster event. I intended for you to fight those guys, not circle strafe them and aggro leash chain them."

    Did he really expect us to fight waves and waves of Silver mobs? Really?! Theres no possible way a group can fight and win against upwards of 10 Silver mobs that are all doing attacks that can hit you for half your health.


    "I made it so that Magg has to get to the other side of the Magma field and close to the magmacyte – not just a player.
    I fixed what I considered to be a bug/exploit that I introduced through poor planning."

    You didnt fix anything. You made it worse. Magg runs through fire and lava and will run off to fight mobs that werent even aggroed. How are we supposed to escort him when his AI is completely suicidal.
    I mean, really, truly incompetent.


    The rush job, knee jerk reaction "fixes" are ruining the game.

    My 75 Warr has 16.3k health with wait for it.... ZERO vitality gear nor Vit traits.  [mod edit]

    My level 80 engineer has 20k health...wait for it...zero exotic gear [im wearing masterwork gear (green) less than 15 silver for whole set]...zero vitality runes on armor...15 points in vitality traits, but i do have vitality  inscrptions on green rings/necklaces.

  • Ice-QueenIce-Queen USA, GAPosts: 2,451Member Uncommon
    Ty for the info.

    image

    What happens when you log off your characters????.....
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
    Dark Age of Camelot

  • eggy08eggy08 erie, PAPosts: 525Member
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

     


    Originally posted by Ambros123

    Originally posted by Xiaoki The post by Robert Hrouda is absolutely ridiculous. The most glaring non-factual statement "you should have anywhere between 15k-25k HP" In what world does a level 75 have upwards of 25k health. Someone in a full set of VIT Exotic may have just over 15k. Really goes to show you that the person that designed the Citadel of Flame dungeon has no idea what the hell he is talking about. "I extended the time from 100 seconds to 200 seconds at the Door Buster event. I intended for you to fight those guys, not circle strafe them and aggro leash chain them." Did he really expect us to fight waves and waves of Silver mobs? Really?! Theres no possible way a group can fight and win against upwards of 10 Silver mobs that are all doing attacks that can hit you for half your health. "I made it so that Magg has to get to the other side of the Magma field and close to the magmacyte – not just a player. I fixed what I considered to be a bug/exploit that I introduced through poor planning." You didnt fix anything. You made it worse. Magg runs through fire and lava and will run off to fight mobs that werent even aggroed. How are we supposed to escort him when his AI is completely suicidal. I mean, really, truly incompetent. The rush job, knee jerk reaction "fixes" are ruining the game.
    My 75 Warr has 16.3k health with wait for it.... ZERO vitality gear nor Vit traits.   [mod edit]
    [mod edit]

    I have 2 friends that are 80 thief with about 20-22k at 80 so about 17-19k at level 75, probably more. Do you put any vit on your gear? Because if you don't, obviously your not going to have any hp and are choosing to build "watch me fall over dead" unlike the majority of the population that realized that building straight dps and no survivability is an awful choice.

    I have almost 30k hp on my warrior, not fully epic'd and only 100 vit from talents.

  • terrantterrant Virginia Beach, VAPosts: 1,683Member
    Originally posted by ictown
    Originally posted by Ambros123
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

    The post by Robert Hrouda is absolutely ridiculous.


    The most glaring non-factual statement
    "you should have anywhere between 15k-25k HP"

    In what world does a level 75 have upwards of 25k health.
    Someone in a full set of VIT Exotic may have just over 15k. Really goes to show you that the person that designed the Citadel of Flame dungeon has no idea what the hell he is talking about.


    "I extended the time from 100 seconds to 200 seconds at the Door Buster event. I intended for you to fight those guys, not circle strafe them and aggro leash chain them."

    Did he really expect us to fight waves and waves of Silver mobs? Really?! Theres no possible way a group can fight and win against upwards of 10 Silver mobs that are all doing attacks that can hit you for half your health.


    "I made it so that Magg has to get to the other side of the Magma field and close to the magmacyte – not just a player.
    I fixed what I considered to be a bug/exploit that I introduced through poor planning."

    You didnt fix anything. You made it worse. Magg runs through fire and lava and will run off to fight mobs that werent even aggroed. How are we supposed to escort him when his AI is completely suicidal.
    I mean, really, truly incompetent.


    The rush job, knee jerk reaction "fixes" are ruining the game.

    My 75 Warr has 16.3k health with wait for it.... ZERO vitality gear nor Vit traits.  Nice job talking out of your ass.

    My level 80 engineer has 20k health...wait for it...zero exotic gear [im wearing masterwork gear (green) less than 15 silver for whole set]...zero vitality runes on armor...15 points in vitality traits, but i do have vitality  inscrptions on green rings/necklaces.

    My mesmer has 14k at 74. 0 vit gear/runes/trait points. So, 15k at 75 isn't unfeasible.

     

    EDIT: FYI all blues greens with one exotic. Oh and I lied, my rebreather has 16 vitality. Still...not tough to get the 15-25k needed.

  • observerobserver Houston, TXPosts: 3,006Member Uncommon
    I'm only lvl 58 Ranger, and i already have 10k HP, with almost all my gear in 55 blues.  What lvl is that dungeon that he's talking about?
  • XiaokiXiaoki White Pigeon, MIPosts: 2,602Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by eggy08

    Originally posted by Xiaoki  

    Originally posted by Ambros123

    Originally posted by Xiaoki The post by Robert Hrouda is absolutely ridiculous. The most glaring non-factual statement "you should have anywhere between 15k-25k HP" In what world does a level 75 have upwards of 25k health. Someone in a full set of VIT Exotic may have just over 15k. Really goes to show you that the person that designed the Citadel of Flame dungeon has no idea what the hell he is talking about. "I extended the time from 100 seconds to 200 seconds at the Door Buster event. I intended for you to fight those guys, not circle strafe them and aggro leash chain them." Did he really expect us to fight waves and waves of Silver mobs? Really?! Theres no possible way a group can fight and win against upwards of 10 Silver mobs that are all doing attacks that can hit you for half your health. "I made it so that Magg has to get to the other side of the Magma field and close to the magmacyte – not just a player. I fixed what I considered to be a bug/exploit that I introduced through poor planning." You didnt fix anything. You made it worse. Magg runs through fire and lava and will run off to fight mobs that werent even aggroed. How are we supposed to escort him when his AI is completely suicidal. I mean, really, truly incompetent. The rush job, knee jerk reaction "fixes" are ruining the game.
    My 75 Warr has 16.3k health with wait for it.... ZERO vitality gear nor Vit traits.  Nice job talking out of your ass.
    Good for you.   My 80 Thief(downscaled to 75) in full Exotic gear has about 13k. Nice job talking out your ass.
    I have 2 friends that are 80 thief with about 20-22k at 80 so about 17-19k at level 75, probably more. Do you put any vit on your gear? Because if you don't, obviously your not going to have any hp and are choosing to build "watch me fall over dead" unlike the majority of the population that realized that building straight dps and no survivability is an awful choice.

    I have almost 30k hp on my warrior, not fully epic'd and only 100 vit from talents.


    Good for you.


    So, any words of wisdom on Magg's AI being terrible during the Magmacyte event?


    Can you and your 2 friends kill 10 Silver mobs without dying yourselves?


    It seems that you and the rest of the responders are focusing on the comment about vitality because you cant defend your precious on the other 2.

  • xpiherxpiher Indianapolis, INPosts: 3,311Member

    The explanation given by the developer for the change in dungeon mechanics was awesome! I love the fact that ANET made something harder. Bravo ANET BRAVO (I'm being serious BTW)

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  • dageezadageeza london, KYPosts: 578Member
    Originally posted by chryses

    On a side note I am seriously impressed with the communication coming out of Anet right now.  Normally there is a holy veil that covers the developers/company and it forces the player base to swap gossip and tidbits of info someone gets from a family member who sweeps the floors of the developers office.

    I feel more companies should be out there discussing their product like Anet does.  As a gamer and consumer of their game/product, it gives me confidence. 

     

    This^

     While i dont agree with every single thing anet is doing here i do appreciate that they explain their actions and justifications..

    This game is vast and has many ways of playing it and i hope going forward that anet doesnt go overboard with kneejerk nerfs that punish honest non exploitive players because if they do than GW2 becomes just another game where the exploiters win by forcing anet to over nerf and ruin the fun of this game for honest gamers..

    Playing GW2..

  • HrimnirHrimnir Qeynos, COPosts: 1,597Member Uncommon
    Eh, im getting uninspired by the game anyways.  I love the armor and stuff like that, and im interested in getting to 80 and getting some of those cool looking sets, but the grind time investment they want you to put in for something purely aesthetic is way beyond what im willing to do.  Maybe if Storm Legion werent coming out soon and i had literally nothing else to play/do, i'd consider it.  But not when i can be playing something waaaaayyyyyy better.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • wowfan1996wowfan1996 NonePosts: 719Member
    I didn't bother to do any dungeons in GW2 before and I certainly won't start now. Waste of time. And dungeons aren't the easiest or fastest way to level. The absolutely fastest and easiest way is to invest RM and level 1-80 via crafting never leaving Lion's Arch.

    MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member
    Originally posted by wowfan1996
    I didn't bother to do any dungeons in GW2 before and I certainly won't start now. Waste of time. And dungeons aren't the easiest or fastest way to level. The absolutely fastest and easiest way is to invest RM and level 1-80 via crafting never leaving Lion's Arch.

    You aren't missing anything anyways. Dungeons in this game are by far the worst and dullest part of the game.

    Very disappointing considering how well done other portions are. Why the hell anyone would have ever wanted to farm those is beyond me. Just boring...

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

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