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Originally posted by Psychow Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by Psychow I agree with the OP. Leveling to cap should be a major accomplishment in your character's "life".
I mean, in a game like Wizardry Online, I can see that being a major accomplishment, as the design of the game is to not only prevent you from reaching max level but actually to try to permanently kill you in each dungeon on the way there, but in the majority of MMOs past and present, has getting to the cap required anything more than just endlessly killing mobs for hours on end? I don't see where the admirable or noteworthy act is there. Yes, I know, that's considered 'flaming' around here but I really don't get it.
Well, when a child graduates highschool, isn't that considered a major accomplishment? Even though the vast majority do? Or would you just go to your child on graduation day and say "gee...took you long enough!" (Wow, that would be bad...lol)
My fear is that you genuinely do not see the difference between completing 12 years of education and grinding to max level in an MMO.
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Originally posted by Gravarg I guess you could call me old school, or a grumpy old man, but I truly miss the old days when it took at least 6 months to level to max level. In today's games it takes maybe a week, if you're slow, to get to max level. I truly believe that in MMOs, unlike other games, the "end" should never be there. Yes, today's developers add in content for capped characters to do, but it's just not the same as leveling up. Take Guild Wars 2 for instance, I heard that a player leveled from level 1-80 in 2 days...really? That couldn't be fun at all, and it misses the whole point of MMOs. I think alot of developers (and players) have forgotten that in MMOs the "endgame" isn't what MMOs are about. It's about exploration, discovery, learning new things, and yes killing. Old MMOs had more to do with learning than today's MMOs. Today's MMOs you can log in day one, and never have to go find some spreadsheet telling you which weapon is best for your level. Today's MMOs you never have to go to a wiki, or heaven-forbid, buy an actual book with a map and how-tos, just so you don't get lost. I know there will probably never be a game like old EQ or old DAoC or old Ultima Online or really old Neverwinter Nights, back when it took a minimum of 6 months to get to the end. Heck, in the original DAoC it took longer to get the last 2 levels than it does to get to cap in today's games. Alas, there is no real reason for developers to make games like this anymore. The majority of players aren't like me. They want thier rewards upfront and as soon as possible. They don't want to spend hours on end killing things or doing quests just to get a single level. They want 20 levels in that time. Just my two cents from an old dinosaur lol.
+1, I agree. I miss those days.
GW2 was the perfect game to bring back long leveling spans, since friends could still play with each other in lower lvl content, yet they went for the easy route. So now we have people maxing 2 toons to 80 in 4 days. Such an exciting vibrant world with large explorable zones, only to be sidetracked by the leveling speed..
Originally posted by Rossboss The reason why everyone is so dead set on being "endgame" is because developers try to reward players for reaching the end of the game, like in platformers reward you with another character or boss rush mode or a different playing mode. The only problem is that the design of the game is that the players get the big payoff at the end, instead of having milestone levels with large payoffs along the way and a massive one at the end. Also, there's a huge trend in PvP only content and level is important in PvP. This would be fine except that players just make more characters to have lower level PvP accounts. There's really very little reward in playing through any MMORPG more than once. It's tough to see character progression if it literally takes weeks/months to level up. I'd imagine you'd get tired of running and killing rats for quest giver "A" and most new players don't read or care about story lines.
Very good point. I think recent MMOs have looked toward ways to remedy that. RIFT, TERA and GW2 all took steps to add more endgame-style content throughout the game. RIFT's rifts, TERA's BAMs and a lot of the GW2 features seem geared toward creating a more even endgame experience throughout the game. Heck, in GW2, I've come across low level content that is comparabe to what many MMOs relegate to 'epic' endgame content.
I miss it, god do I miss it.
I miss it so much I intentionally slow my playtime down so the journey will last longer.
Last game with a decent grind was Aion. Had a lot of fun with that one.
I don't miss having to sit for an hour to get my mana back so I could get back in the saddle again, or waiting 20 minutes on a boat so I can get to an xp spot that is available and good, nor do I miss sitting on one spot while some puller pulls the same 5 mobs for 5 - 6 hours, or having to buy a second account so I can heal my warrior to keep downtime at a minimum..
All those timesinks and more I don't bother to mention, to slow levelling down to a crawl. I don't miss those. If a game can stretch out the leveling pace without throwing tons of stupid timesinks at me then I'm with the OP all the way.
Originally posted by grimal I miss it, god do I miss it. I miss it so much I intentionally slow my playtime down so the journey will last longer. Last game with a decent grind was Aion. Had a lot of fun with that one.
have you tried Vanguard? Not only is a really good MMO with old school styling and modern graphics (I didnt say cutting edge, trolls) but it even has a skill that lets you adjust skil gain. I forget if that skill turns off gain completely or just reduces it.
Go back a few years and look at WoW when they released Wrath. One thing that became abundantly obvious.
With the advent of DeathKnights to WoW, it was proven that all original contnet was deemed obsolete and irrelevent beyond anyhting more than a stepping stone to the current content.
Seems like a waste to me. The most ironic part of this is that the only ones who didn't get this fact was Blizzard themselves. They went back and spent a huge amount of resourses redeveloping all that obsolete and irrelevent content. LOL
Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by Rossboss The reason why everyone is so dead set on being "endgame" is because developers try to reward players for reaching the end of the game, like in platformers reward you with another character or boss rush mode or a different playing mode. The only problem is that the design of the game is that the players get the big payoff at the end, instead of having milestone levels with large payoffs along the way and a massive one at the end. Also, there's a huge trend in PvP only content and level is important in PvP. This would be fine except that players just make more characters to have lower level PvP accounts. There's really very little reward in playing through any MMORPG more than once. It's tough to see character progression if it literally takes weeks/months to level up. I'd imagine you'd get tired of running and killing rats for quest giver "A" and most new players don't read or care about story lines.
As I play F2P games only now, there has been very little in the way of content developement towards what the P2P games offer. I find this to be a bit unnerving as F2P is essentially the future of MMORPGs. MMORPGs could take a pointer or two from the oldschool RPGs, add some challenges along the way, and force players through certain content to give players incentive to not just blast through the game. Also, most MMORPGs have ways of skipping content by way of powerleveling or other means, which means that players will care even less about the character developing along the way. MMORPGs just don't put enough emphasis on their content and feed into the players' lust for shiny things and level up madness.
I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.
The problem i see with this is that it wouldn't work well in teh traditional mmorpg setup of today. It would cause insane pvp inbalances, difficulty in pve grouping, tons of wasted previous content, and who knows what else.
The thing is, i do agree with the idea of a "hard to reach plane". Final dungeons, quest lines, pvp arenas, anything that would require lots of time and effort to reach. I gives a long term goal.
Of course, the majority of the content must be outside of this. Also, using normal levels would go back to the problems i meantioned, so, horizontal progression or something else would fit instead.
I hope someday, after WoW runs its course and they no longer develop new expansions, Blizzard (Or who ever owns it by then) will open up lagacy servers and allow players to play the game in its original format.
Obviously asking Blizzard to do that now is like putting a nail in current WoW's coffin and Blizzard would be insane to do it. But down the road, it might make sense.
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OP needs to know that GW2 isn't really a leveling type of game, leveling in this game is only 5 percent of the game, so it isnt everything, just to point that out.....
However I do see your point, I do want the old mmos back but devs seem to not want to take that step again or just don't know how to.....
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I play Vanguard it takes months to level just adveturing,you also have to level crafting and diplomacy.
It would take months if not a year to level all three,that's without all the other stuff goinmg on.
You don't need to go back to the old days,you just need to play the right MMO.
Originally posted by Damage99 I'm with you. I miss the days of feeling attached to a character.
This is it, right here. With the leveling speed in most MMOs you don't get that sense of attachment or accomplishment. That is the reason I still play Final Fantasy XI... you have ONE character. Everything is on one character, and even though leveling is so much faster now, everyone knows eachother because there's no such thing as "alts".
I doubt there will be many games in the future targetted towards players like me, but I'll either adapt or quit MMOs altogether.
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Originally posted by Loktofeit have you tried Vanguard? Not only is a really good MMO with old school styling and modern graphics (I didnt say cutting edge, trolls) but it even has a skill that lets you adjust skil gain. I forget if that skill turns off gain completely or just reduces it.
Played at launch for a few months. I plan on giving it another go after they have padded out the F2P rollout.
As opposed to extreme hand-holding for the NAO generation.
Yep, I miss it.
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I agree. Anyone remember the good old days in Lineage II?
Where leveling took forever? But that was good... There was always something to do, always some point to reach. I was so excited every time I hit another Item grade, or was able to change my class. It was a real milestone.
I liked and enjoyed the grinding. Good old fashioned grinding...... *sigh*
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On one hand, I miss the old days you described. On the other hand, I have a very demanding job, so that it would be almost impossible for me to progress in this type of game. Back in times when I enjoyed these games, I was able to play 20 hours per day .
Despite all that, I would still want the levelling to take that long.
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Slow leveling makes way more sense to me...
What better way to fully enjoy all areas of the game? It makes it possible to make low level dungeons playgrounds for loot hunting. As it is now, you can do a dungeon twice and then by then the loot drops and mobs become trivial.
Now you have people rushing through all of the low level content and then end up grinding the endgame over and over until they get bored or an expansion comes out. Its almost a waste of the developer's time to create all that low level content that is barely used.
Age of Conan was fun but they gave too much experience out. They had great low level dungeons but you leveled so quickly it wasn't worth the time to farm the dungeons for good gear. Which is probably why you always just asked a couple of level 50 friends to clear the dungeons for you -- you didn;t need the experience, just the loot.
Originally posted by tank017 You most certainly aren't alone.I think game companies shoot themselves in the foot by not using a long leveling arc
Where's the instant profit in that?
Originally posted by Sovrath i'm from the generation where we still walked to school up hill both ways. And I'm older than you.
Was it in two feet of snow? Were you barefoot?
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