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I miss the trinity, how about you?

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  • KuinnKuinn MestaPosts: 2,093Member
    Originally posted by Zikari

    Please stay with me for a second and read my opinion before ranting solely because of the title.

     

    I did read what you said, and I kinda understand you, but I wouldnt want to stick with the trinity in every game just because it's familiar and comfortable, since that's essentially what is so great about it. What I've seen and heard a lot is this "everyone for themself" which is a poor way of doing instance, there are many support abilities and better yet combos that people could do.

     

    I did Ascalonian Catacombs story mode with the everyone for themself mentality, it was doable but a bit tricky at parts, and gave me a good idea of how hard explorable will be without boon rotations and no support, propably not doable. So yeah, it really needs a team effort to make it go smooth, and because people dont understand fully and are yet not so good with this new model it seems worse.

     

    However trinity is better for pugs at least in the start for the very reason you mentioned, everyone kinda knows their place in the run before anyone says anything. Gw2 feels more like a game where you need team speak for even pugs because it's very hard to make effectively combos and such with random people with just chatbox.

     

    Trinity is more simple thus easier, no need to coordinate anything, I dare to say that trinity is actually more "everyone for themself" since the role you have with trinity system really requires no communication, where combos and support spells do, when people tend to ignore combo possibilities and dodge roll out of your heal.

     

    Will it be just a matter of getting used to it? I sure hope so, but I'm not sure if that's simply the case.

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon

    imo the trinity needs to be expanded, not consolidated.

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  • UtukuMoonUtukuMoon ParisPosts: 1,066Member
    Originally posted by Nitth

    imo the trinity needs to be expanded, not consolidated.

    I agree.

  • ZikariZikari SingaporePosts: 78Member
    Originally posted by Sylvarii

    ArenaNet haven't removed the holy trinity of tanking damage, healing damage, and dealing damage in Guild Wars 2. They consolidated it. Everyone can tank, everyone can heal, and everyone can nuke. 

    Nope,the holy trinity dispite ArenaNets claims is alive and kicking in GW2.

    True, but having 5 more or less independent part time healer, part time tank, part time dps -ers trying to bring a boss down while trying to synergize their abilities does make dngeon play simply more chaotic than anything else. I see less group play than in other games, as in actually playing your characters strenght to support the group.

  • 7star7star SeoulPosts: 405Member
    Originally posted by Zikari

     

    What’s your take on this, do you miss the trinity in the 5 player dungeons of Guild Wars 2?

    No, I don't, because we still have the trinity in so many other games anytime I want to go play them: WoW, Rift, TSW, etc.

     

     

  • IstrebiteIIstrebiteI SpbPosts: 266Member

    Dont miss tank-healer-dps segregation at all. All it does is lower the potential of groups and your skillcap. It's a flawed mechanic both mechanic-wise (as it forces you into a role instead of allowing you to find it out yourself how you can benefit your group most) and immersion-wise (its stupid how state of your health becomes a simple vessel, which has liquid being poured into by some players and drained by monsters, its even more stupid how the enemies are dumbest asses ever, attacking the least preferred target - the one that is hardest to kill but does no real damage to them).

    I think GW2 is the step in right direction. Not to say they hit hte nail in the head and made THE BEST SYSTEM EVAH, but its a start. You can go on from there. But segregation into set roles of heal, tank, dps has to go.

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zikari
    Originally posted by aesperus

    Absolutely not.

    Honestly, I'm glad we (finally) get an MMO that requires some actual thought when it comes to combat. Most don't. I understand the divide, though.

    The trinity system is easy. Extremely easy. It requires minimal thought, if any, and anyone can jump into it and do fine right off the bat. (WoW has proven this). Many people are comfortable with taking the most obvious path of least resistance in games.

    Personally, it kind of saddens me how many people are stuck on the trinity model. Not only do they not see anything else, they refuse to believe it's even possible. This is all inspite of the model only existing in MMOs, and yet there being no real reason for it. I love how in GW2 I can jump in with any combination of classes (and I've done some of the hardest content with most class combinations), and all it takes is a quick bit of planning / coordination and amazing things start to happen. I love being able to discover the best way of tackling content, rather than having it handed to me on a silver platter and having to wait for people to magically fill the roles no one really wants to do.

    MMOs have been stuck in a trinity rut for over a decade. As long as people are too unwilling to step outside their comfort zone to try something new, that won't change. I think it's about time we had something different.

    I wouldn't say I am stuck on it and can't see anything else. I was looking forward to another system. But now after playing for a while and having a blast with Guild Wars 2 I just question if this particular change is a change for the better. There might be a better system out there then the trinity, most definitely there is, but the way dungeons in GW2 play and feel, I think this one is not. It works perfectly for PVP, and I would say on the battlefields this is btter than a trinity based approach, but in the dungeons, I just think the classic model was more fun to play with.

    I wasn't trying to say that you, specifically, were; however a lot of people are. It shows both in their playstyle and criticisms about the game. I hear you in quesitoning whether or not this is necessarily 'the best way', but I'd also suggest that (if this trend actually picks up), there won't necessarily be a 'best way' for a while. Because the trinity is a very linear way of looking at MMO mechanics, and what Anet is doing is turning that into a much broader spectrum. Such a mindset allows for a lot of different approaches, and can result in many different types of non-trinity games.

    As for dungeons, what exactly bothers you about the model? In a lot of ways it makes PvE feel a lot more like PvP. There will always be a difference, but the AI of the mobs makes PvE a lot more dynamic. The chaotic nature of it does take some getting used to, but I suppose it all comes down to if you'd rather be sitting in a Que for an hour, looking for a tank / healer, or would you rather jump in instantly, but risk having some unconventional fights.

    Personally, I've had some of the most fun with the least likely setups. Full thief parties, wierd mixes of necros / mesmers / engineers; all way more fun than having some overly support-heavy guardian in the front spamming regen & block. I even found it quite enjoyable (and challenging) trying to tank as a squishy dps class sometimes.

  • crazynannycrazynanny PopowoPosts: 173Member

    OP - it's nostalgia mainly.

    Trinity system while not something bad is less complex in general, as you need to pay attention just for one thing. Green bars as healer, big boss/mobs as tank, rotation as dps. While simplicity isn't necessairly flaw, it wasn't the source of your fun. It was fitting the puzzle(heal, dps, tank) into dungeon design. So yeah I agree first clear of dungeon in trinity modle was darn satysfying. But after that, you got stuck in one old boring scheme, tank stays here, dps/healer here and off we go. It's shallow and it's BORING!

    Not to mention biggest trinity flaw - blaming each other. Bad healer, bad tank, bad dps. While you can be still a bad player in GW2 it's harder to be ignorant and just put a blame on someone. You know when someone is not pulling their weight because they should do same things as you. Also this forces more cooperation and more friendliness then "L2P n00b" or "LFG XYZ dungeon, 56421+ GS , link achiev pls".

    In GW2 everyone needs to pay attention to everything. You heal, buff, debuff, dps and tank mobs. To lesser degree of course than dedicated class. This requires darn good cooperation and participation in battle, rather than "I stand here and pew pew cuz I'm dps".

     

    It will take time to get used to new system however, which will change encouters from death zerg into cooperate to progress.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,946Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by crazynanny

    OP - it's nostalgia mainly.

    Trinity system while not something bad is less complex in general, as you need to pay attention just for one thing. Green bars as healer, big boss/mobs as tank, rotation as dps. While simplicity isn't necessairly flaw, it wasn't the source of your fun. It was fitting the puzzle(heal, dps, tank) into dungeon design. So yeah I agree first clear of dungeon in trinity modle was darn satysfying. But after that, you got stuck in one old boring scheme, tank stays here, dps/healer here and off we go. It's shallow and it's BORING!

    Not to mention biggest trinity flaw - blaming each other. Bad healer, bad tank, bad dps. While you can be still a bad player in GW2 it's harder to be ignorant and just put a blame on someone. You know when someone is not pulling their weight because they should do same things as you. Also this forces more cooperation and more friendliness then "L2P n00b" or "LFG XYZ dungeon, 56421+ GS , link achiev pls".

    In GW2 everyone needs to pay attention to everything. You heal, buff, debuff, dps and tank mobs. To lesser degree of course than dedicated class. This requires darn good cooperation and participation in battle, rather than "I stand here and pew pew cuz I'm dps".

    It will take time to get used to new system however, which will change encouters from death zerg into cooperate to progress.

    I agree, if someone dies 20 times in a Wow dungeon they blame the healer or possibly the tank. When the same thing happen in GW2 they complain that the game is too hard.

    Big improvement.

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member

    I wasn't a particular fan of the trinity system but now that it is not here anymore I miss it. Specially compared to whatever Arena Net has replaced it with. For example I used to play CC/Healer utility class and I cant seem to do that properly here. Either the heals/CC are too weak, too small radius or too long cooldown. So right now I dont know what kind of role my Elementalist does as the only thing he can do consistently is DPS.

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    Originally posted by crazynanny

    OP - it's nostalgia mainly.

    Trinity system while not something bad is less complex in general, as you need to pay attention just for one thing. Green bars as healer, big boss/mobs as tank, rotation as dps. While simplicity isn't necessairly flaw, it wasn't the source of your fun. It was fitting the puzzle(heal, dps, tank) into dungeon design. So yeah I agree first clear of dungeon in trinity modle was darn satysfying. But after that, you got stuck in one old boring scheme, tank stays here, dps/healer here and off we go. It's shallow and it's BORING!

    Not to mention biggest trinity flaw - blaming each other. Bad healer, bad tank, bad dps. While you can be still a bad player in GW2 it's harder to be ignorant and just put a blame on someone. You know when someone is not pulling their weight because they should do same things as you. Also this forces more cooperation and more friendliness then "L2P n00b" or "LFG XYZ dungeon, 56421+ GS , link achiev pls".

    In GW2 everyone needs to pay attention to everything. You heal, buff, debuff, dps and tank mobs. To lesser degree of course than dedicated class. This requires darn good cooperation and participation in battle, rather than "I stand here and pew pew cuz I'm dps".

     

    It will take time to get used to new system however, which will change encouters from death zerg into cooperate to progress.

    I hear this alot, that the trinity system is simplistic and/or boring but it really depends on what level of difficulty you are doing. Properly managing aggro, DPS, healing and at the same time CC adds can be quite a challenge depending on what kind of content you are going.

    In GW 2 you cant do anything, but DPS, consistently. You cant really manage aggro because there are no taunts, you cant heal consistently nor can you CC concistently. Basically everyone can do a little bit of everything which, for me, has just resulted in one-dimensional combat where everyone has, more or less, the same role as everyone else. I dont see the improvment here.

  • TardcoreTardcore MinskPosts: 2,325Member
    Originally posted by Yamota

    I wasn't a particular fan of the trinity system but now that it is not here anymore I miss it. Specially compared to whatever Arena Net has replaced it with. For example I used to play CC/Healer utility class and I cant seem to do that properly here. Either the heals/CC are too weak, too small radius or too long cooldown. So right now I dont know what kind of role my Elementalist does as the only thing he can do consistently is DPS.

    Well dps AND run around like a spastic with ants in his pants.

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  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,946Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Yamota

    I hear this alot, that the trinity system is simplistic and/or boring but it really depends on what level of difficulty you are doing. Properly managing aggro, DPS, healing and at the same time CC adds can be quite a challenge depending on what kind of content you are going.

    In GW 2 you cant do anything, but DPS, consistently. You cant really manage aggro because there are no taunts, you cant heal consistently nor can you CC concistently. Basically everyone can do a little bit of everything which, for me, has just resulted in one-dimensional combat where everyone has, more or less, the same role as everyone else. I dont see the improvment here.

    Instead of tanking you need to kite if you plan to get anywhere in a dungeon.  And preferably you leave over to the next player after a short while.

    It actually do take a lot of teamwork, even if some dungeonbosses are really boring and can be killed by just DPSing them.

    But this is dungeons, the open world is not the same. Then again, 60 mixed trinity players on a single box with no coordination would be even more one dimensional.

  • ZikariZikari SingaporePosts: 78Member
    Originally posted by aesperus

    As for dungeons, what exactly bothers you about the model? In a lot of ways it makes PvE feel a lot more like PvP. There will always be a difference, but the AI of the mobs makes PvE a lot more dynamic. The chaotic nature of it does take some getting used to, but I suppose it all comes down to if you'd rather be sitting in a Que for an hour, looking for a tank / healer, or would you rather jump in instantly, but risk having some unconventional fights.

    That summary really nails it, it makes PvE feel more like PvP! I kind of liked the classic PvE concept of the encounters being more or less predictable, not necessaryly easy, but predictable. Way to go is, you go in, whatch what the boss is doing, check what your group can do, then think about what each of your players need to do in order to win. Then you execute your plan and either win, or wipe and adjust the tactic.

    The way you do this didn't very much differ wheter it is a 5 man dungeon or a 10, 25, 40 man raid. I normally tend to take the lead and explaining encounters and mechanics, especially in PUG's (kind of second nature as long time tank/healer). In Trinity games, the people coming in as Healer, Tank or DPS, are aware of their role and what is expected to them. In GW2 I mostly don't even know where to start, Most people coming in the dungeons with the Zerg-it-down mindset from the dynamic events. I have no clue what the other 4 guys are capable off and what they are skilled and geared for.

    So besides giving general comments like, don't melee, whatch out for the rockets, clear the flowers first, the adds explode stay away from them, there is not much planning I can do. While in trinity games I always have the feeling of solving a little puzzle to bring down a boss by having the team push the right button at the right moment while standing at the right spot, in GW2 it feels like I can't see the puzzle pieces and just throw them at the table and hope they will fit after some tries. I miss the feeling of being in control of what is happening. This for me at least is the essence of PvE, and again, as long as it is controllable it can be very tightly tuned and require perfection in execution.

    Now writing this down and thinking about it, maybe it's not the lack of trinity per se, but the lack of insight into most profession mechanics by all of the team. I miss the discussions I had in TSW withing PUGS about what we can do, players where way more engaging in actually coming up with a tactic and we tried multipe setups for an encounter until it worked (2 tanks, additional off-heal, healtank or all dps on the kite). In GW2 most PUGS will not really discuss encounters, just run in and die then try again, if I make suggestions, most will do what I say, If I am very lucky with even verifying by typing a simple 'k' in group chat.

  • Zeus.CMZeus.CM ZagrebPosts: 1,788Member
    No more LFG for healer, DPS or tank for 30 minutes. Thank you Arenanet.
  • The_KorriganThe_Korrigan EastPosts: 2,630Member
    Thankfully for those who miss it, 99% of the MMORPG on the market use it - so they don't lack choice of a game to go play ;-)

    If you wonder why I don't answer your posts, it's most likely because you are on my block list - so don't waste your time.

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  • JackdogJackdog Charleston, SCPosts: 6,344Member

    don't miss the trinity at all, can remember many times having to stop a raid or big dungeon crawl becasue the healers wife decided it was time for him to quit or the CC'er losing her connection. Nothing more fun than sitting and spamming tank LFG asswhup dungeon right?

    don't miss naked corpse runs either, or full loot PvP or ginding 38926 more large nasty whozits so I can make level 38

    I miss DAoC

  • ZikariZikari SingaporePosts: 78Member
    Originally posted by Jackdog
    don't miss the trinity at all, can remember many times having to stop a raid or big dungeon crawl becasue the healers wife decided it was time for him to quit or the CC'er losing her connection. Nothing more fun than stinning and spamming tank LFG asswhup dungeon right?

    Nobody will argue, that having to fill a specific role was a pain in the but and is gladly as good as gone with GW2. However when you purely compare the fun you have playing in the GW dungeons, compared to trinity games (if you played any), is it more or less fun. Let's just assume the start-up time would be the same and looking for replacements wouldn't be an issue, is it more entertaining and satisfying to play PvE like this?

  • XasapisXasapis VolosPosts: 5,561Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zeus.CM
    No more LFG for healer, DPS or tank for 30 minutes. Thank you Arenanet.

    Instead you can have your instant gratifcation corpsezerg with groups that are most of the time undergeared, solo based specced and clueless about synergies. Not much of an improvement. Sometimes waiting a while to get a quality experience surpasses instant gratification mixed with frustration.

    And please don't try to defend him by mentioning guild or friend runs. LFG obviously imply random people and the majority of random people have learned to work solely for themselves on every other aspect of GW2. In contrast, pure tanks and healers have to live through a frustrating experience on every other aspect of gameplay (in other games obviously) in order to have a great experience in groups.

  • delete5230delete5230 Posts: 2,944Member Uncommon

    I do have to say that GW2 dungeons have less strategy without healer, tank and dps, OTHER THAN TAGGING WHO TO KILL FIRST. A well oiled team ONLY consist of how much dps is put out and lots of resurrecting down players. Something else that helps is knowing where traps are and getting out of the red circles of damaging AOE's, but this is a solo tactic nothing to do with a team.

    Why can't mmo deves make tanks and healers more dps so they would enjoy soloing more is beyond me....People would play them more. 

    Vanguard makes healers very strong in solo, there are never a lack of healers because they are fun to solo. ( this is the only mmo that I know of )

  • JackdogJackdog Charleston, SCPosts: 6,344Member
    Originally posted by Zikari
    Originally posted by Jackdog
    don't miss the trinity at all, can remember many times having to stop a raid or big dungeon crawl becasue the healers wife decided it was time for him to quit or the CC'er losing her connection. Nothing more fun than stinning and spamming tank LFG asswhup dungeon right?

    Nobody will argue, that having to fill a specific role was a pain in the but and is gladly as good as gone with GW2. However when you purely compare the fun you have playing in the GW dungeons, compared to trinity games (if you played any), is it more or less fun. Let's just assume the start-up time would be the same and looking for replacements wouldn't be an issue, is it more entertaining and satisfying to play PvE like this?

    just one or two, started with a MUD named MUME back in the very early 90's, played UO, DAoC, SWG, EQ2, LoTRO, and TOR for at least 6 months minimum each, beta tested about a dozen more including Vanguard, EvE, AoC and some more readily nad best forgotten games.

    I am so glad the trinnity is gone, time to move on with this genre. naked corpse runs are dead also just as they  should be.

    I miss DAoC

  • DibdabsDibdabs FelvershamPosts: 2,604Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zikari
     

    What’s your take on this, do you miss the trinity in the 5 player dungeons of Guild Wars 2?

    I was totally fed up with 'the trinity' and I am glad to see the back of it.

    HOWEVER... there are much more efficient ways of taking down a mob than everyone "getting their gun off".  There's a reluctance on the part of some players to swap to a support spec because zerging the boss does eventually get the job done, even if droves of characters die in the process.  (I think something as simple as a 15-second "time out" on death might go some way to curing this attitude, but that's another topic entirely)

    For example, as a Ranger, I rarely ever see another Ranger use Spirits to boost players in the melee - all there is is loads of traps being set.  As an Engineer, I rarely see another Engineer use an Elixir Gun and Medkits, just loads of gun turrets.  Don't get me wrong, the traps and gun turrets do the job eventually, but it just seems messy and chaotic.

  • KhinRuniteKhinRunite ManilaPosts: 879Member
    Originally posted by Xasapis
    Originally posted by Zeus.CM
    No more LFG for healer, DPS or tank for 30 minutes. Thank you Arenanet.

    Instead you can have your instant gratifcation corpsezerg with groups that are most of the time undergeared, solo based specced and clueless about synergies. Not much of an improvement. Sometimes waiting a while to get a quality experience surpasses instant gratification mixed with frustration.

    And please don't try to defend him by mentioning guild or friend runs. LFG obviously imply random people and the majority of random people have learned to work solely for themselves on every other aspect of GW2. In contrast, pure tanks and healers have to live through a frustrating experience on every other aspect of gameplay (in other games obviously) in order to have a great experience in groups.

    There's a solution to that: teach clueless people how to specc for group. There's bunch of skill points lying about in the game, and thanks to Tiered utility a player will inevitably pick up a AOE heal or buff, or support skill. It takes time to educate the masses, but it's not impossible.

    In a Holy Trinity game there's no soultion to the issue presented. You're stuck waiting for the right class to fill the role, or you're stuck looking for a group who needs your class.

  • The_KorriganThe_Korrigan EastPosts: 2,630Member
    Originally posted by delete5230

    A well oiled team ONLY consist of how much dps is put out and lots of resurrecting down players.

    Nope, a well oiled team of good players will very rarely have to resurrect down players. It's a PuG of bad players which does that.

    If you wonder why I don't answer your posts, it's most likely because you are on my block list - so don't waste your time.

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  • IPolygonIPolygon ViennaPosts: 707Member Uncommon
    Don't miss it. But I've always been someone looking at the bigger picture. I prefer Total War over any Craft and WvW over group member dependency and D2 chaotic over Baldur's Gate-like click and pause gameplay.
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