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I miss the trinity, how about you?

ZikariZikari SingaporePosts: 78Member

Please stay with me for a second and read my opinion before ranting solely because of the title.

First a quick history of what I played in the past. I was playing Holy Priest for most of my 'hardcore' raiding career in WoW from Vanilla till Lich King, later causally pugged as Paladin Tank for Cataclysm. I played Warrior Priest and Zelot on the Warhammer Online battlefields and cleared dungeons as Mitra Priest and later Guardian in Age of Conan. Lately I came to play The Secret World and mainly tanked during my dungeon runs, while occasionally going DPS.

Now Guild Wars 2 is my first MMO not using the Tank/Healer/DPS split as basis for it's dungeon play and honestly I am having a hard time getting used to it. Maybe that’s the wrong term, having a hard time liking or appreciating the benefits is more accurate. As others have stated in other threats, a lack of trinity does not mean you can randomly throw together any 5 players without taking their build into consideration and have a chance on success. Big problem here, most players don't seem to be aware of this, with the result that dungeon runs in pick-up groups tend to be very chaotic and unorganized

The trinity, gave players a baseline tactic to approach every situation, the players of each role knew what their job was upon entering the dungeon, send the tank to catch the mobs, make sure no one dies, kill everything, simple but yet you could build tons of fun encounters around that baseline. Now people don’t have an initial understanding what they are supposed to do. Everybody seems to fight for himself and only looks out for other to raise them up after they have been downed. Mob Aggro, while following some rules, seems to be a bit of a mystery and it doesn’t really let you prepare your skill deck before an encounter, since it is making a huge difference if all the adds and the boss are chasing you, or someone else (aggro depending on player health is a very very annoying mechanic).

There are other things to be found in the dungeons that I would consider problematic from a design perspective, trash heavy, long walks after wipes, graveyard zerging, very high health-pools for bosses and trash and barely telegraphed one-shot mechanics are the most obvious. I love the game, I love exploring, doing events and the WvW, but the dungeons so far have been more frustrating than anything else. I am not saying they are to hard, the difficulty is okay for the most part, but the gameplay is hectic and random, that makes it frustrating on failure, since it is very hard to analyse what went wrong and how to do better.

 

This lead to a series of questions that I answered myself:

 

Does the lack of trinity make looking for groups easier? - YES, definitely

Did I have more or less fun playing GW 5 man dungeons than 5 man dungeons in games with a trinity model? - LESS FUN, this is an subjective statement.

Am I having less fun because there is no trinity? - TO A LARGE DEGREE YES, the trinity enforced collaboration, while without, it is more everyone for himself, which goes against the idea of an team effort required to overcome a dungeon challenge.

Will it be more fun in a fixed group? - MOST LIKELY, my experience is based on PUG's, I am perfectly aware that a well build team will have an completely different experience.

 

What’s your take on this, do you miss the trinity in the 5 player dungeons of Guild Wars 2?

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Comments

  • bubalubabubaluba LjubljanaPosts: 434Member
    If no trinity is good be sure that Blizzard would adopt this idea. They tried to create something new in gw2 but only what they did is simplification of everything.
  • ZikariZikari SingaporePosts: 78Member
    Originally posted by bubaluba
    If no trinity is good be sure that Blizzard would adopt this idea. They tried to create something new in gw2 but only what they did is simplification of everything.

    I wouldn't see it is simpler, but the final question that needs to be asked is: "Is it more fun?" And this one feels more like a no to me. It is a new approcach, it is breaking away from the norm, but is it an innovation for the better of the gameplay?

  • demzdemz Sterling, VAPosts: 25Member

    Honestly, yes. I kind of miss it. Only because everyone is ranged. I reckon it is the outcome when everyone can do everything. So what class are you? I am a warrior. I use a bow/gun. Everyone everywhere uses range because being melee sucks rotten stinking donkey butthole. Sure there are those few that love to tell you they are awesome and the other 500000 billion% are wrong but for the most part, no, it is not fun. 

    As melee (not healer or tank those non-existent pricks) I have to double tap buttons twice (got two in me) to avoid things but if there is more than a few mobs near each other I am screwed. Or I could stand back and hit my cooldowns and randomly stroll around while I train on melee. Without some idea of what, if anything, someone is doing it feels like a giant cluster-you-know-what. 

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,962Member Uncommon

    I dont miss the trinity at all, but then have I played plenty of Guildwars during the years (side by side with a whole bunch of other MMOs though).

    I dont mind the healer really but the tank just make any combat into incredible boring skill rotation.

    I think it just take some time getting used to, many people have played trinity games 5-16 years and beliving that 3 weeks of GW2 would change the way you play completely is a bit naive.

    In a few months if you still play I think you will get the real backfeeling of the none trinity combat, you know when you dont have to think but just react to anything.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,962Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bubaluba
    If no trinity is good be sure that Blizzard would adopt this idea. They tried to create something new in gw2 but only what they did is simplification of everything.

    Not really, Blizzard wont totally revamp the base mechanics of Wow no matter what, not worth the chanse.

    And it is not simplification, the trinity is as simple as anything can get. 1 guy tank, 1 guy heal, 3 guys DPS is still the simplest mechnic around. Often everyone can just stand still and rotate skills.

    Then of course trinity can be more advanced with CC and buffing, but you really dont need them in modern MMOs like you did in EQ.

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member

    No.  My reason is simply the number of years I spent adhering to this so-called standard.  It works, but I needed a break from it, and GW2 provided that, maybe a year or two late, but it's still a very refreshing change.  Sure, I may miss it again someday, but at least now MMO devs have been shown there can be more than one system, which should provide enough variety for everyone in the years to come.

    Note: this is not to say I don't like the Trinity.  It's just not necessary for a game to be called an MMO or to be enjoyable.

  • ScalplessScalpless SnowballvillePosts: 1,396Member Uncommon

    I think it's something that'll get more fun as players learn how to play. From what I've seen, a good GW2 group consists of characters that collaborate more actively than in your typical trinity game, because their roles intersect. For example, when you've got a good tank, you only have to worry about not stepping on his toes and you're going to be fine. If you're playing with a Guardian, you have to look at what skills he's using, stay in his shielding bubbles, protect him when necessary, etc. It's still not particularly complicated, but it's better than most trinity setups I've seen.

    Graveyard zerging is something ANet is looking into nerfing, so it'll probably disappear soon enough.

  • dariuszpdariuszp PrzeworskPosts: 182Member
    Originally posted by Zikari 

    Does the lack of trinity make looking for groups easier? - YES, definitely

    Did I have more or less fun playing GW 5 man dungeons than 5 man dungeons in games with a trinity model? - LESS FUN, this is an subjective statement.

    Am I having less fun because there is no trinity? - TO A LARGE DEGREE YES, the trinity enforced collaboration, while without, it is more everyone for himself, which goes against the idea of an team effort required to overcome a dungeon challenge.

    Will it be more fun in a fixed group? - MOST LIKELY, my experience is based on PUG's, I am perfectly aware that a well build team will have an completely different experience.

     

    What’s your take on this, do you miss the trinity in the 5 player dungeons of Guild Wars 2?

    Game isn't lacking trinity. Most of the classes can be spec to one of the holy trinity role. As example my first class (thief) was DPS oriented with evasive movements. My second class (elementalist) took healer role. Third (guardian) is very very defensive. He can take few hits without a scratch, protect, do little of group healing and he can buff party.

    Trick is that people should decide what role they take in party.

    Trinity never enforced collaboration. Trinity enforced ONE ROLE for YOUR ENTIRE TIME. You were doomed to heal or be punching bag whole f***** time. In GW2 you can take any role you want and they just switch to something else. 

    You have problems with dungeon ? That's your problem. After years spend doing same thing over and over again in WOW with one of your characters you forgot how to think for yourself. How we do it ? First of all we have a guild. Second, we talk with each other and know each other. Third - we gather some people, decide who is doing what and we go with this sh**.

    And it's working fine. 

    Seriously, WoW and other MMO held your hand all your life and now when some game give you freedom of choice, you have no idea what to do with it and you want to go back of being slave. Are you like that in real life ? Want to be ruled ? I think not. So don't do it here. Adapt and have fun of go back to WoW.

  • Ren128Ren128 BrisbanePosts: 68Member Uncommon

    I don't miss 45 minutes dungeons ques as dps.

     

     

  • vort3xvort3x Jebem vam materPosts: 129Member

    I guess it's a double edged blade. The trinity itself has some really annoying properties to it (endless waiting for the healer, DPS classes not being able to get into dungeons,...), while the absence of trinity doesn't seem to be the way to go, since it removes some of the tactics, that are ok, and it removes letting people roleplay classes that they have been used to roleplaying, and enjoyed them. Some people just like being healers, tanks, ranged DPS,...

    I think DC Universe Online resolved this issue the best. Any class you chose could be either DPS or Healer/Tank/Controler. You could simply switch the class, changed the gear, and of you go... So everyone could roleplay their class if needed, but if not needed they could still join the dungeon as DPS. And most of the time people were on their primary class - Healer/Tank or Troll. I find this solution really commendable. Too bad SOE screwed that game up with greediest business model...

  • dariuszpdariuszp PrzeworskPosts: 182Member
    Originally posted by vort3x

    I guess it's a double edged blade. The trinity itself has some really annoying properties to it (endless waiting for the healer, DPS classes not being able to get into dungeons,...), while the absence of trinity doesn't seem to be the way to go, since it removes some of the tactics, that are ok, and it removes letting people roleplay classes that they have been used to roleplaying, and enjoyed them. Some people just like being healers, tanks, ranged DPS,...

    I think DC Universe Online resolved this issue the best. Any class you chose could be either DPS or Healer/Tank/Controler. You could simply switch the class, changed the gear, and of you go... So everyone could roleplay their class if needed, but if not needed they could still join the dungeon as DPS. And most of the time people were on their primary class - Healer/Tank or Troll. I find this solution really commendable. Too bad SOE screwed that game up with greediest business model...

    You can do the same in GW2. You can spec as healer and you are ready to go. Same with tanking. But here not every class have enough defensive skills.

  • chefdiablochefdiablo Barrie, ONPosts: 202Member

    I do not miss the trinity system. This might have to do with the fact that my first MMO did not have a trinity system.

    I do agree with many people regarding some of the content. Champion encounters seem bland when there are twenty players going all out and death seems unlikely. I have only played a ranged character though and perhaps these mobs are more challenging as a melee class or weapon choice.

    Group content still has plenty of challenges however many of which are at the behest of random players.

    I still find ways to die, there are plenty of challenges remaining, and I am still having fun.

    The absence of the trinity is not taking away from my pleasure of playing the game.

  • ZikariZikari SingaporePosts: 78Member
    Originally posted by dariuszp
    Originally posted by Zikari 

    Does the lack of trinity make looking for groups easier? - YES, definitely

    Did I have more or less fun playing GW 5 man dungeons than 5 man dungeons in games with a trinity model? - LESS FUN, this is an subjective statement.

    Am I having less fun because there is no trinity? - TO A LARGE DEGREE YES, the trinity enforced collaboration, while without, it is more everyone for himself, which goes against the idea of an team effort required to overcome a dungeon challenge.

    Will it be more fun in a fixed group? - MOST LIKELY, my experience is based on PUG's, I am perfectly aware that a well build team will have an completely different experience.

     

    What’s your take on this, do you miss the trinity in the 5 player dungeons of Guild Wars 2?

    Game isn't lacking trinity. Most of the classes can be spec to one of the holy trinity role. As example my first class (thief) was DPS oriented with evasive movements. My second class (elementalist) took healer role. Third (guardian) is very very defensive. He can take few hits without a scratch, protect, do little of group healing and he can buff party.

    Trick is that people should decide what role they take in party.

    Trinity never enforced collaboration. Trinity enforced ONE ROLE for YOUR ENTIRE TIME. You were doomed to heal or be punching bag whole f***** time. In GW2 you can take any role you want and they just switch to something else. 

    You have problems with dungeon ? That's your problem. After years spend doing same thing over and over again in WOW with one of your characters you forgot how to think for yourself. How we do it ? First of all we have a guild. Second, we talk with each other and know each other. Third - we gather some people, decide who is doing what and we go with this sh**.

    And it's working fine. 

    Seriously, WoW and other MMO held your hand all your life and now when some game give you freedom of choice, you have no idea what to do with it and you want to go back of being slave. Are you like that in real life ? Want to be ruled ? I think not. So don't do it here. Adapt and have fun of go back to WoW.

    Chill, the thing is, the complete freedom of choice ends at forming a successful dungeo group. You still need synergies and certain skills like burn/posin removal and stuff like that. Every profession can fullfill different rules based on build and weapon choise, but you still need to speck and gear for that particiular role and then find a group where your build makes sense.

    It's not so different from being a slave to the standard, just that the roles are diffent ones, and by not being the standard ones it is very confusing to specialize and even know if the group you are running is useful or not. Regarding the freedom, The Secret World had a nice compromise, you could be anything everytime, by a couple of clicks, but you still needed the gear matching the role (tank/heal/dps). There I could join a dungeongroup as DPS, but jump in as tank for a boss and off-heal the next. In GW2 I join a dungeon with my Guardian build for Boon and Heal Support and it might not even be needed. Realistically PUGS now, just throw any 5 people together and then while you start playing you figure out what each is doing and what is missing. So you might end up with groups that are more or less gimped by trait builds and weapon choices...

     

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,916Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ren128

    I don't miss 45 minutes dungeons ques as dps.

     

    I'm in this camp also.  In queue or shouting on LFG gets old really fast.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • KhinRuniteKhinRunite ManilaPosts: 879Member
    As long as the game doesn't keep me from enjoying group content simply because "I am not this class", or because "We don't have this class in the group yet", I'm happy. No, I won't miss the Holy Trinity.
  • gessekai332gessekai332 New York City, NYPosts: 877Member Common
    i played dps in other mmorpgs and i am playing dps again now.

    Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)

  • vort3xvort3x Jebem vam materPosts: 129Member
    Originally posted by dariuszp
    Originally posted by vort3x

    I guess it's a double edged blade. The trinity itself has some really annoying properties to it (endless waiting for the healer, DPS classes not being able to get into dungeons,...), while the absence of trinity doesn't seem to be the way to go, since it removes some of the tactics, that are ok, and it removes letting people roleplay classes that they have been used to roleplaying, and enjoyed them. Some people just like being healers, tanks, ranged DPS,...

    I think DC Universe Online resolved this issue the best. Any class you chose could be either DPS or Healer/Tank/Controler. You could simply switch the class, changed the gear, and of you go... So everyone could roleplay their class if needed, but if not needed they could still join the dungeon as DPS. And most of the time people were on their primary class - Healer/Tank or Troll. I find this solution really commendable. Too bad SOE screwed that game up with greediest business model...

    You can do the same in GW2. You can spec as healer and you are ready to go. Same with tanking. But here not every class have enough defensive skills.

    Well yeah, you can, but it seems people don't really get the impression that they need to roll anything but "DPS". Noone is shouting out that they need someone to roll healer to help them get through the dungoen. They just need "somebody". If you know what i mean... 

  • gwei1984gwei1984 GrazPosts: 373Member Uncommon

    I really loved to play tanks and healers. Was just more fun, than dps. More responsibility and difficulty. Guess thats one other point why i dont like group play in GW2.

    Also some advanced group tactics in dungeons would be nice. Running in circles and resurrecting is just not fun.

    Hodor!

  • JimmyYOJimmyYO Columbus, OHPosts: 520Member
    I don't get how everyone being DPS is so groundbreaking from Tank, Healer, Dps? Zerging everything to death might be fun at first but give it another month or two, assuming they aren't merging servers by then.
  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon

    Absolutely not.

    Honestly, I'm glad we (finally) get an MMO that requires some actual thought when it comes to combat. Most don't. I understand the divide, though.

    The trinity system is easy. Extremely easy. It requires minimal thought, if any, and anyone can jump into it and do fine right off the bat. (WoW has proven this). Many people are comfortable with taking the most obvious path of least resistance in games.

    Personally, it kind of saddens me how many people are stuck on the trinity model. Not only do they not see anything else, they refuse to believe it's even possible. This is all inspite of the model only existing in MMOs, and yet there being no real reason for it. I love how in GW2 I can jump in with any combination of classes (and I've done some of the hardest content with most class combinations), and all it takes is a quick bit of planning / coordination and amazing things start to happen. I love being able to discover the best way of tackling content, rather than having it handed to me on a silver platter and having to wait for people to magically fill the roles no one really wants to do.

    MMOs have been stuck in a trinity rut for over a decade. As long as people are too unwilling to step outside their comfort zone to try something new, that won't change. I think it's about time we had something different.

  • CernanCernan Charlotte, NCPosts: 359Member

    Yes and no to your question.

     

    No, I don't completely miss the trinity.  I loved City of Heroes and their defender approach was an awesome alternative to a spambot healer.  Yes, you still needed tank/dps/denfender int CoH. I just wish some other game, like GW2, would have used there alternatives to strict healing.  The closet thing in GW2 is probably an Elementalist that focuses on Chills and Blinds ( D/F build which is what I'm trying to play.)  Storm Defenders and Kinetics Defenders were amazing healer alternatives in CoH teams (knock back auras, negative accuracy auras, knockdown ice slicks.)  I remember when the game came out and everyone thought you needed an Empath healer to do content.  Slowly they learned the benefits other Defenders could bring.  I feel GW2 is mostly missing this feeling.  Instead of giving an alternative to strict healing, they just sprinkled around heals on every class.  

     

    Yes, I  miss the coordination.  I'm also with on you on mobs with insane health and 1 hit kills.  I fought some cave harpy that casts lava fonts that did 1.5 times my total health in damage.  We had about 15 people there and it was just a cluster fudge.  There was a telegraphed circle about 1 sec before the actual spell hit.  If you were  in the middle of the circle, you died.  You didn't have time to dodge far enough away to survive.  That's not a fun fight.  It's a boring fight.  The boss has one main attack that kills you if your hit.   The only strategy is run in  circles for 10 minutes while you slowly work down the insane amounts of hp she has.  

  • XasapisXasapis VolosPosts: 5,561Member Uncommon

    The problem is there is nothing different in GW2 dungeon system than other mmorpgs, besides:

    • Not having a tank (obviously)
    • Not having a corpse lock
    The game still have healers and dps. Utility is still there in all other games as well. Healing is just spread to everyone instead of being the responsibility of one person. And everyone is a lot tougher than in other games, plus you get the invulnerability dogde perk.
     
    Really, the game is build around dynamic events and WvW. It's also build around the common denominator, aka everyone being dps as primary. Dungeons obviously suffer due to this, but not much once you overgear them.
  • ZikariZikari SingaporePosts: 78Member
    Originally posted by aesperus

    Absolutely not.

    Honestly, I'm glad we (finally) get an MMO that requires some actual thought when it comes to combat. Most don't. I understand the divide, though.

    The trinity system is easy. Extremely easy. It requires minimal thought, if any, and anyone can jump into it and do fine right off the bat. (WoW has proven this). Many people are comfortable with taking the most obvious path of least resistance in games.

    Personally, it kind of saddens me how many people are stuck on the trinity model. Not only do they not see anything else, they refuse to believe it's even possible. This is all inspite of the model only existing in MMOs, and yet there being no real reason for it. I love how in GW2 I can jump in with any combination of classes (and I've done some of the hardest content with most class combinations), and all it takes is a quick bit of planning / coordination and amazing things start to happen. I love being able to discover the best way of tackling content, rather than having it handed to me on a silver platter and having to wait for people to magically fill the roles no one really wants to do.

    MMOs have been stuck in a trinity rut for over a decade. As long as people are too unwilling to step outside their comfort zone to try something new, that won't change. I think it's about time we had something different.

    I wouldn't say I am stuck on it and can't see anything else. I was looking forward to another system. But now after playing for a while and having a blast with Guild Wars 2 I just question if this particular change is a change for the better. There might be a better system out there then the trinity, most definitely there is, but the way dungeons in GW2 play and feel, I think this one is not. It works perfectly for PVP, and I would say on the battlefields this is btter than a trinity based approach, but in the dungeons, I just think the classic model was more fun to play with.

  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Two of my favorite "roles" in MMO's are tanking and healing.  So yeah, I kind of miss the trinity thing.  DPS just feels so simplistic to me.  Especially in this game where you spend most of your time just zerging around randomly.

    You make me like charity

  • UtukuMoonUtukuMoon ParisPosts: 1,066Member

    ArenaNet haven't removed the holy trinity of tanking damage, healing damage, and dealing damage in Guild Wars 2. They consolidated it. Everyone can tank, everyone can heal, and everyone can nuke. 

    Nope,the holy trinity dispite ArenaNets claims is alive and kicking in GW2.

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