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Why GW2 Lacks Longevity

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  • SaintPhilipSaintPhilip Bree, MIPosts: 713Member
    Originally posted by cahenderson
    Originally posted by EricDanie
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip

    I will watch the Video later if I have time- But honestly I do not need to...Pretty sure I know whats said.

    I agree too- It does lack longevity. Its not a full fledged MMORPG (more like an ARPG with Massive Online components). Its very casual...

    But, its fun. And it doesnt need Longevity like a subscription title,

    GW2 has done some very creative marketing and essentially sold a F2P cash shop game for $50- $60. Then they will get a small Xpac out every year or so for another $40- $50. Most have at least purchased Bag space from the CS... They are making money hand over fist and do not NEED high player retention (just enough to keep the servers active) and each Xpac will bring an influx of former players back to the game for a short time.

    This was a genius marketing Blitz. And the game is fun.

    No. It doesnt have "staying power" and if it were based on a "sub" I would feel pretty ripped off and (obviously) not re sub...But they already sold me a box and some Bag Space and I play a few hours a week (and plan to play at a casual rate) and it makes a nice second Online game to play while taking a break from your main Game.

    I am happy.

    curious in your opinion as to how it's not a full fledged MMO? 

    My guess is because there is no gear grind to become and/or remain competitive. It is there for vanity (in the end it's just a game, even stats are for vanity), it's just not mandatory and it's not padded with weekly/daily timers either.

    Yeah, there's a certain type of player that can only measure their success by the 'teh lewtz' they get. GW2 isn't the game for them.

    Hmmmm- See I think you are trying to make something Black or White that is actually shades of grey.

    So if you dont like 'teh lewtz' why play a game with any levels, progression or anything at all? Why not play a game where there is no loot at all and everyone is 100% the same at all times.

    People like 'teh lootz' and treasure, and uniquness and being recognized for good play, etc...Most people, in fact. I enjoy finding better weapons and armor (or crafting them) which is why I play these games. If I wasnt worried at all about progressing my gear I would p-lay one of the hundreds of games that require no gear and hell, have no persistance at all.

     

  • JimmydeanJimmydean Ypsilanti, MIPosts: 1,270Member
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip
    Originally posted by cahenderson
    Originally posted by EricDanie
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip

    I will watch the Video later if I have time- But honestly I do not need to...Pretty sure I know whats said.

    I agree too- It does lack longevity. Its not a full fledged MMORPG (more like an ARPG with Massive Online components). Its very casual...

    But, its fun. And it doesnt need Longevity like a subscription title,

    GW2 has done some very creative marketing and essentially sold a F2P cash shop game for $50- $60. Then they will get a small Xpac out every year or so for another $40- $50. Most have at least purchased Bag space from the CS... They are making money hand over fist and do not NEED high player retention (just enough to keep the servers active) and each Xpac will bring an influx of former players back to the game for a short time.

    This was a genius marketing Blitz. And the game is fun.

    No. It doesnt have "staying power" and if it were based on a "sub" I would feel pretty ripped off and (obviously) not re sub...But they already sold me a box and some Bag Space and I play a few hours a week (and plan to play at a casual rate) and it makes a nice second Online game to play while taking a break from your main Game.

    I am happy.

    curious in your opinion as to how it's not a full fledged MMO? 

    My guess is because there is no gear grind to become and/or remain competitive. It is there for vanity (in the end it's just a game, even stats are for vanity), it's just not mandatory and it's not padded with weekly/daily timers either.

    Yeah, there's a certain type of player that can only measure their success by the 'teh lewtz' they get. GW2 isn't the game for them.

    Hmmmm- See I think you are trying to make something Black or White that is actually shades of grey.

    So if you dont like 'teh lewtz' why play a game with any levels, progression or anything at all? Why not play a game where there is no loot at all and everyone is 100% the same at all times.

    People like 'teh lootz' and treasure, and uniquness and being recognized for good play, etc...Most people, in fact. I enjoy finding better weapons and armor (or crafting them) which is why I play these games. If I wasnt worried at all about progressing my gear I would p-lay one of the hundreds of games that require no gear and hell, have no persistance at all.

     

    Might I suggest frozen bubble! Got me through many boring classes in highschool.

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by eggy08

    so i could jump into wow right now with entry pvp gear and compete against people in full gladiator>? Or be usefull in the hardest raids with not a single piece of raid gear?

     

    Umm.. then you never played WoW back when ger mattered. Back when DKP was the only way you got gear and it would take you countless weeks to get pieces of gear because only a few pieces dropped a night and you either waited or bought pieces from badges which still took 2-3 weeks per piece. But honestly, you've been 80 for how long and how many epics do you have? Because I have epic weapon, 1 accessory, and 4 pieces of armor and I hardly have played since I hit 80 and only been 80 maybe a week or 2. But you call WoW easy? Maybe since they dumbed everything down to the point where they started handing people epics for participation.

    Highlighted the important part. 

    so you are saying I could compete right now with entry level pvp gear against the top geared players or be useful in any raid with entry level epics? honest question as I haven't played wow in a few years.

    Sure you could compete with them. You wouldn't perform any better than someone jumping into WvWvW though with full blues compared to someone with full level 80 exotics. Same with explorable dungeons, you'd be licking the floor most fights.

    ill say this I haven't played wow in years but when I did if I had entry level PVP gear i would have 0 chance against anyone with highest set of gear.. Right now my level 31 ele does damn good in WvW and depending on build can be damn useful in both damage and support. Just look at the gear stat difference between entry level 80 gear in GW2 vs exotics then very top gear in wow vs entry level gear...

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • eggy08eggy08 erie, PAPosts: 525Member
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by eggy08
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by eggy08

    so i could jump into wow right now with entry pvp gear and compete against people in full gladiator>? Or be usefull in the hardest raids with not a single piece of raid gear?

     

    Umm.. then you never played WoW back when gear mattered. Back when DKP was the only way you got gear and it would take you countless weeks to get pieces of gear because only a few pieces dropped a night and you either waited or bought pieces from badges which still took 2-3 weeks per piece. But honestly, you've been 80 for how long and how many epics do you have? Because I have epic weapon, 1 accessory, and 4 pieces of armor and I hardly have played since I hit 80 and only been 80 maybe a week or 2. But you call WoW easy? Maybe since they dumbed everything down to the point where they started handing people epics for participation.

    Highlighted the important part. 

    Regardless. It still takes a while to get the full set. Much longer than a few weeks of grinding. Then the next tier comes out and you're at it again. So honestly I'm missing the fact that this game is any longer considering once you get that full set, you're done and you don't have to worry about grinding again since there won't be another tier of gear until maybe an expansion comes out.

    So the positive of GW2 > games like WoW isn't the fact that there is no treadmill, there obviously is, but that it is on a lower speed than WoWs?  7-10 months (wow patches) vs 1 yr (GW expansions). Hmm. I guess.

    And you know for a fact that GW expansion will come out in a year? I'm sorry, but can you provide evidence for this? Maybe a quote from Anet?

    Either way, GW2 basically put in this feature of exotics and legendaries so that people would stop complaining so much about longevity. So honestly, it's a good feature. Is it a treadmill thou? No, because if an expansion comes out you don't need the epics to get to the next tier of gear do you? Nor do you need it for anything end game. Does it assist in beating explorer modes or beating players without it in WvW? sure, but not to the point that it's necessary. Is it sufficient enough to give you a slight advantage? Yes, but unlike WoW, you can live without it and it requires a tad bit more skill based over gear based.

    Example would be that in GW2, going from yellow to exotic might help you live one more attack from a mob, but it can't make fights trivial. In WoW, once you get better gear as a tank or a healer or a dps, you basically blow through everything like it doesn't matter anymore whether or not you know anything about damage mitigation or strategies. That and in PvP, once you get top end gear, it's almost impossible for entry level players to touch you as opposed to in GW2. The fact that sPvP is normalized basically negates anyone bitching about gear at all since you are given whatever you want there.

  • JimmydeanJimmydean Ypsilanti, MIPosts: 1,270Member
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by eggy08

    so i could jump into wow right now with entry pvp gear and compete against people in full gladiator>? Or be usefull in the hardest raids with not a single piece of raid gear?

     

    Umm.. then you never played WoW back when ger mattered. Back when DKP was the only way you got gear and it would take you countless weeks to get pieces of gear because only a few pieces dropped a night and you either waited or bought pieces from badges which still took 2-3 weeks per piece. But honestly, you've been 80 for how long and how many epics do you have? Because I have epic weapon, 1 accessory, and 4 pieces of armor and I hardly have played since I hit 80 and only been 80 maybe a week or 2. But you call WoW easy? Maybe since they dumbed everything down to the point where they started handing people epics for participation.

    Highlighted the important part. 

    so you are saying I could compete right now with entry level pvp gear against the top geared players or be useful in any raid with entry level epics? honest question as I haven't played wow in a few years.

    Sure you could compete with them. You wouldn't perform any better than someone jumping into WvWvW though with full blues compared to someone with full level 80 exotics. Same with explorable dungeons, you'd be licking the floor most fights.

    ill say this I haven't played wow in years but when I did if I had entry level PVP gear i would have 0 chance against anyone on full gladiator gear.. Right now my level 31 ele does damn good in WvW and depending on build can be damn useful in both damage and support. Just look at the gear stat difference between entry level 80 gear in GW2 vs exotics then very top gear in wow vs entry level gear...

    Exotics are a 13 percent increase over Rares, and Rares even more than that over blues. I'm sure one of your videos has the exact figures. Either way, gear still plays a large role in GW2.   Your 31 ele doing "damn good" in WvWvW is a perception issue. I'm sure you stand on top of towers and rain down your terrible damage dealing AoE like the best of them, but I'm also sure my warrior would tear you apart in seconds.

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Jimmydean

    ill say this I haven't played wow in years but when I did if I had entry level PVP gear i would have 0 chance against anyone on full gladiator gear.. Right now my level 31 ele does damn good in WvW and depending on build can be damn useful in both damage and support. Just look at the gear stat difference between entry level 80 gear in GW2 vs exotics then very top gear in wow vs entry level gear...

    Exotics are a 13 percent increase over Rares, and Rares even more than that over blues. I'm sure one of your videos has the exact figures. Either way, gear still plays a large role in GW2.   Your 31 ele doing "damn good" in WvWvW is a perception issue. I'm sure you stand on top of towers and rain down your terrible damage dealing AoE like the best of them, but I'm also sure my warrior would tear you apart in seconds.

    still not seing how I can be useful in wow pvp.. unless they REALLY toned down gear from what it was.. and if all GW2 gear grind IS the same as wow according to you then why are people bitching over longevity and having nothing to strive for or make them feel more powerfull?

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip

    So if you dont like 'teh lewtz' why play a game with any levels, progression or anything at all? Why not play a game where there is no loot at all and everyone is 100% the same at all times.

    People like 'teh lootz' and treasure, and uniquness and being recognized for good play, etc...Most people, in fact. I enjoy finding better weapons and armor (or crafting them) which is why I play these games. If I wasnt worried at all about progressing my gear I would p-lay one of the hundreds of games that require no gear and hell, have no persistance at all.

    i dont think you can relate to people that play mmos for other reasons than having nicer gear

    its not a matter of disliking the loots, the issue is enjoying the game beyond the loot

     

    using myself as an example,

     

    Everquests 3rd expansion was Luclin, it was an expansion i didnt like except for the new system of AA

     

    so i spent the full year running pickup dungeon groups in Kunark dungeons

    - there was no gear to be had, I already had it or didnt want it

    - i was already level 60, there were no levels for me to increase

    - the only thing i got for character progression was coin, gems, and AA points

     

    i had alot of fun running pickup groups in non-instanced kunark dungeons during that year (2002)

  • ZuvielifyZuvielify Fremont, CAPosts: 168Member
    Originally posted by MosesZD
    snip

    5 and 6 aren't my cup o' tea. People who are playing for this and enjoying it will have a good time in GW2

    7. Are you really going to reroll to see all of the branches in the story? If you are, I am impressed at your ability to redo 97% of the game content to see 3%

    8. 1 year? questionable, imo. If it's the same as above, then I say 1 Month

     

    This is a post about longevity, not about how fun it is to level in GW2. Once you reach the end, and you will reach the end, most people will get bored and leave. Some will come back for the expansions

     

    Once again, you can only speak for yourself.   I will say the current evidence points to your wishful thinking rather than actual behaviors of the game's population.  

     

    How it will play out in the long-run...   We will see.  

     

    I don't want this game to fail at all. I dont mean to come off that way. I think there is a lot of good about GW2. I complain because I wanted it to be more than it is. It's my own fault. If other people are having fun, I don't mean to take that away from them. 

     

    Honestly, I am just complaining about it not being exactly what I had hoped for. I will still log in occasionally, but I will treat it like I treat Battlefield 3

     

    Edit: I will add this though. Even though the game wasn't what I hoped it would be, I do believe that a large amount of other people either already do agree, or will agree given some more play time. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. Like you said, we'll see in time. 

  • SaintPhilipSaintPhilip Bree, MIPosts: 713Member
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip

    So if you dont like 'teh lewtz' why play a game with any levels, progression or anything at all? Why not play a game where there is no loot at all and everyone is 100% the same at all times.

    People like 'teh lootz' and treasure, and uniquness and being recognized for good play, etc...Most people, in fact. I enjoy finding better weapons and armor (or crafting them) which is why I play these games. If I wasnt worried at all about progressing my gear I would p-lay one of the hundreds of games that require no gear and hell, have no persistance at all.

    i dont think you can relate to people that play mmos for other reasons than having nicer gear

    its not a matter of disliking the loots, the issue is enjoying the game beyond the loot

     

    using myself as an example,

     

    Everquests 3rd expansion was Luclin, it was an expansion i didnt like except for the new system of AA

     

    so i spent the full year running pickup dungeon groups in Kunark dungeons

    - there was no gear to be had, I already had it or didnt want it

    - i was already level 60, there were no levels for me to increase

    - the only thing i got for character progression was coin, gems, and AA points

     

    i had alot of fun running pickup groups in non-instanced kunark dungeons during that year (2002)

    Yes I fully agree with you. But I felt that poster was trivializing the importance of gear as an element needed for an RPG . Gear should never be the end all or the game becomes Diablo (which is fun, but...)but its fun to discover treasure and gain more powerful items.

    Its a balancing act.

    I personally hate end game "gear grind" but understand its importance for a sect of players and to an overall games longevity (with present game mechanics)-  I do not want a gear centric game at all. I prefer crafted gear being the best and degrading over time. This provides an interdependance and a vibrant economy...But that is a whole 'nother discussion =P

    ***I fully relate to people who do not want a gear grnd and find something else in these games- But we all think gear and treasure is fun. This IS a part of the "everything else" until it becomes the "center"

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip

    Yes I fully agree with you. But I felt that poster was trivializing the importance of gear as an element needed for an RPG . Gear should never be the end all or the game becomes Diablo (which is fun, but...)but its fun to discover treasure and gain more powerful items.

    Its a balancing act.

    I personally hate end game "gear grind" but understand its importance for a sect of players and to an overall games longevity (with present game mechanics)-  I do not want a gear centric game at all. I prefer crafted gear being the best and degrading over time. This provides an interdependance and a vibrant economy...But that is a whole 'nother discussion =P

    gear is fun too;  thanks for elaborating

  • eggy08eggy08 erie, PAPosts: 525Member
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Jimmydean

    ill say this I haven't played wow in years but when I did if I had entry level PVP gear i would have 0 chance against anyone on full gladiator gear.. Right now my level 31 ele does damn good in WvW and depending on build can be damn useful in both damage and support. Just look at the gear stat difference between entry level 80 gear in GW2 vs exotics then very top gear in wow vs entry level gear...

    Exotics are a 13 percent increase over Rares, and Rares even more than that over blues. I'm sure one of your videos has the exact figures. Either way, gear still plays a large role in GW2.   Your 31 ele doing "damn good" in WvWvW is a perception issue. I'm sure you stand on top of towers and rain down your terrible damage dealing AoE like the best of them, but I'm also sure my warrior would tear you apart in seconds.

    still not seing how I can be useful in wow pvp.. unless they REALLY toned down gear from what it was.. and if all GW2 gear grind IS the same as wow according to you then why are people bitching over longevity and having nothing to strive for or make them feel more powerfull?

    Because the case is different from one person to another. One says he completed the game in no time, got all epics, did all explorable modes (call BS on this because they take a long time and some are bugged), exc. exc. and that the game is too short. Next person says the game takes too much time and its cattered around time > skill. Another says exotics are pointless and gear grind is optional, while another says that exotics matter... its never going to change. Noone can make up their mind on complaints because there is at least 1 person out there that feels the opposite and that the opposite is making the game worse.

  • UkiahUkiah Austin, TXPosts: 273Member
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip
    Originally posted by cahenderson
    Originally posted by EricDanie
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip

    I will watch the Video later if I have time- But honestly I do not need to...Pretty sure I know whats said.

    I agree too- It does lack longevity. Its not a full fledged MMORPG (more like an ARPG with Massive Online components). Its very casual...

    But, its fun. And it doesnt need Longevity like a subscription title,

    GW2 has done some very creative marketing and essentially sold a F2P cash shop game for $50- $60. Then they will get a small Xpac out every year or so for another $40- $50. Most have at least purchased Bag space from the CS... They are making money hand over fist and do not NEED high player retention (just enough to keep the servers active) and each Xpac will bring an influx of former players back to the game for a short time.

    This was a genius marketing Blitz. And the game is fun.

    No. It doesnt have "staying power" and if it were based on a "sub" I would feel pretty ripped off and (obviously) not re sub...But they already sold me a box and some Bag Space and I play a few hours a week (and plan to play at a casual rate) and it makes a nice second Online game to play while taking a break from your main Game.

    I am happy.

    curious in your opinion as to how it's not a full fledged MMO? 

    My guess is because there is no gear grind to become and/or remain competitive. It is there for vanity (in the end it's just a game, even stats are for vanity), it's just not mandatory and it's not padded with weekly/daily timers either.

    Yeah, there's a certain type of player that can only measure their success by the 'teh lewtz' they get. GW2 isn't the game for them.

    Hmmmm- See I think you are trying to make something Black or White that is actually shades of grey.

    So if you dont like 'teh lewtz' why play a game with any levels, progression or anything at all? Why not play a game where there is no loot at all and everyone is 100% the same at all times.

    People like 'teh lootz' and treasure, and uniquness and being recognized for good play, etc...Most people, in fact. I enjoy finding better weapons and armor (or crafting them) which is why I play these games. If I wasnt worried at all about progressing my gear I would p-lay one of the hundreds of games that require no gear and hell, have no persistance at all.

     

    And that's fine. Games like WoW/LotRO/SWTOR, they all orient around the gear treadmill. Generally, how you progress in those games is by acquisition of better gear. You run dungeons to get dungeon gear, which makes it possible for you to do Beginner Raid, which gives you Rank1 gear which means you can now do Intermediate Raid. Same for the pvp in those games.

     

    GW2 is NOT that game. It is a continuance of the philosophy they established in GW1. Whether it was in PVE or PVP, the gear was the same level. The progression became how much better YOU got at your character. Yes, the gear treadmill games DO require some level of player skill. However, the focus was on the GEAR. The GW franchise is about YOU progressing. 

     

    "But that's not really progression" I hear people say. From your perspective, it's not. However, as much as 'you' are baffled by this, the rest of 'us' are almost equally baffled by the gear treadmill. "What do you do once you have the best gear?" we ask.

    "Now? Now we PLAY THE GAME"....

  • UkiahUkiah Austin, TXPosts: 273Member
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by eggy08

    so i could jump into wow right now with entry pvp gear and compete against people in full gladiator>? Or be usefull in the hardest raids with not a single piece of raid gear?

     

    Umm.. then you never played WoW back when ger mattered. Back when DKP was the only way you got gear and it would take you countless weeks to get pieces of gear because only a few pieces dropped a night and you either waited or bought pieces from badges which still took 2-3 weeks per piece. But honestly, you've been 80 for how long and how many epics do you have? Because I have epic weapon, 1 accessory, and 4 pieces of armor and I hardly have played since I hit 80 and only been 80 maybe a week or 2. But you call WoW easy? Maybe since they dumbed everything down to the point where they started handing people epics for participation.

    Highlighted the important part. 

    so you are saying I could compete right now with entry level pvp gear against the top geared players or be useful in any raid with entry level epics? honest question as I haven't played wow in a few years.

    Sure you could compete with them. You wouldn't perform any better than someone jumping into WvWvW though with full blues compared to someone with full level 80 exotics. Same with explorable dungeons, you'd be licking the floor most fights.

    ill say this I haven't played wow in years but when I did if I had entry level PVP gear i would have 0 chance against anyone on full gladiator gear.. Right now my level 31 ele does damn good in WvW and depending on build can be damn useful in both damage and support. Just look at the gear stat difference between entry level 80 gear in GW2 vs exotics then very top gear in wow vs entry level gear...

    Exotics are a 13 percent increase over Rares, and Rares even more than that over blues. I'm sure one of your videos has the exact figures. Either way, gear still plays a large role in GW2.   Your 31 ele doing "damn good" in WvWvW is a perception issue. I'm sure you stand on top of towers and rain down your terrible damage dealing AoE like the best of them, but I'm also sure my warrior would tear you apart in seconds.

     

    If you could get to him. If he's a better player, he's probably going to win. If YOU'RE a better player, you're going to win. NEITHER of you is going to coast by or get pwned because of your gear.

  • YakkinYakkin irvine, CAPosts: 919Member
    Originally posted by cahenderson

    "But that's not really progression" I hear people say. From your perspective, it's not. However, as much as 'you' are baffled by this, the rest of 'us' are almost equally baffled by the gear treadmill. "What do you do once you have the best gear?" we ask.

    "Now? Now we PLAY THE GAME"....

    I don't wanna sound like I'm ragging on WoW, but that part always confused me. If you only start playing the game AFTER you get all that loot, then what the hell were we doing for the past 90 levels?!

  • UkiahUkiah Austin, TXPosts: 273Member
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip

    So if you dont like 'teh lewtz' why play a game with any levels, progression or anything at all? Why not play a game where there is no loot at all and everyone is 100% the same at all times.

    People like 'teh lootz' and treasure, and uniquness and being recognized for good play, etc...Most people, in fact. I enjoy finding better weapons and armor (or crafting them) which is why I play these games. If I wasnt worried at all about progressing my gear I would p-lay one of the hundreds of games that require no gear and hell, have no persistance at all.

    i dont think you can relate to people that play mmos for other reasons than having nicer gear

    its not a matter of disliking the loots, the issue is enjoying the game beyond the loot

     

    using myself as an example,

     

    Everquests 3rd expansion was Luclin, it was an expansion i didnt like except for the new system of AA

     

    so i spent the full year running pickup dungeon groups in Kunark dungeons

    - there was no gear to be had, I already had it or didnt want it

    - i was already level 60, there were no levels for me to increase

    - the only thing i got for character progression was coin, gems, and AA points

     

    i had alot of fun running pickup groups in non-instanced kunark dungeons during that year (2002)

    *THIS*

    My first MMO was Asheron's Call. My third was Eve Online. 

    I only mention those two, despite the myriad of others I played, because AC was my 'virgin' experience and Eve was about skill and tactics. A lot of people don't understand why I prefer that style of game. I sort of understand the gear focused group, because I admit i LOVE looting a corpse to see what I got. But at the end, I played Eve far more/longer than any other game because of the anti 'rock-paper-scissors' aspect.

     

    We're all talking about WoW here, let's be honest. And for what WoW offers, it does it really well. I played it, but I never really enjoyed it. I certainly never enjoyed the PVP. We've all extolled the virtues of Rock-Paper-Scissors, but I've come to loathe it. If Scissors always beats Paper, and I always play paper, Scissors is always going to beat me.

    Eve and GW suggest a different mechanic: There is a counter for everything. In Eve, cruisers were bigger than frigates, but you could outfit and tactic your way into using a frigate to beat a cruiser. A swarm of frigates COULD take out a battleship. OR, the battleship could take out the swarm of frigates if we was outfitted specifically for it, but then he'd be less useful against cruisers and other battleships.

    GW requires you to make choices in your skills and tactics. As Taugrim pointed in a recent blog, you CAN make a build oriented 100% around CC/control. And you're going to sacrifice dps and other things to do it. But even then, it doesn't  automatically mean you can't beat someone in a 1v1. It comes down to the player skill and how well they know their class and yours.

  • SaintPhilipSaintPhilip Bree, MIPosts: 713Member
    Originally posted by cahenderson
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip
    Originally posted by cahenderson
    Originally posted by EricDanie
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip

    I will watch the Video later if I have time- But honestly I do not need to...Pretty sure I know whats said.

    I agree too- It does lack longevity. Its not a full fledged MMORPG (more like an ARPG with Massive Online components). Its very casual...

    But, its fun. And it doesnt need Longevity like a subscription title,

    GW2 has done some very creative marketing and essentially sold a F2P cash shop game for $50- $60. Then they will get a small Xpac out every year or so for another $40- $50. Most have at least purchased Bag space from the CS... They are making money hand over fist and do not NEED high player retention (just enough to keep the servers active) and each Xpac will bring an influx of former players back to the game for a short time.

    This was a genius marketing Blitz. And the game is fun.

    No. It doesnt have "staying power" and if it were based on a "sub" I would feel pretty ripped off and (obviously) not re sub...But they already sold me a box and some Bag Space and I play a few hours a week (and plan to play at a casual rate) and it makes a nice second Online game to play while taking a break from your main Game.

    I am happy.

    curious in your opinion as to how it's not a full fledged MMO? 

    My guess is because there is no gear grind to become and/or remain competitive. It is there for vanity (in the end it's just a game, even stats are for vanity), it's just not mandatory and it's not padded with weekly/daily timers either.

    Yeah, there's a certain type of player that can only measure their success by the 'teh lewtz' they get. GW2 isn't the game for them.

    Hmmmm- See I think you are trying to make something Black or White that is actually shades of grey.

    So if you dont like 'teh lewtz' why play a game with any levels, progression or anything at all? Why not play a game where there is no loot at all and everyone is 100% the same at all times.

    People like 'teh lootz' and treasure, and uniquness and being recognized for good play, etc...Most people, in fact. I enjoy finding better weapons and armor (or crafting them) which is why I play these games. If I wasnt worried at all about progressing my gear I would p-lay one of the hundreds of games that require no gear and hell, have no persistance at all.

     

    And that's fine. Games like WoW/LotRO/SWTOR, they all orient around the gear treadmill. Generally, how you progress in those games is by acquisition of better gear. You run dungeons to get dungeon gear, which makes it possible for you to do Beginner Raid, which gives you Rank1 gear which means you can now do Intermediate Raid. Same for the pvp in those games.

     

    GW2 is NOT that game. It is a continuance of the philosophy they established in GW1. Whether it was in PVE or PVP, the gear was the same level. The progression became how much better YOU got at your character. Yes, the gear treadmill games DO require some level of player skill. However, the focus was on the GEAR. The GW franchise is about YOU progressing. 

     

    "But that's not really progression" I hear people say. From your perspective, it's not. However, as much as 'you' are baffled by this, the rest of 'us' are almost equally baffled by the gear treadmill. "What do you do once you have the best gear?" we ask.

    "Now? Now we PLAY THE GAME"....

    The context of my post was a responce to someone who I felt was trivializing the importance of gear in an mmorpg (even GW2). You are making this a whole seperate issue- But I agree with you , as it were. I am not defending WoWs gear treadmill but rather saying it adds longevity to the game.

    See, this isnt about "fun " factor, or which "game" is best, etc anymore than its about graphics.

    Its about longevity. It about what will keep someone playing. 

    That aside, with no sub and 18 billion boxes sold, GW2 is a success (its niot about failure or success either). We are 3 weeks or so in and I and others feel there isnt enough to hold our attention for long...This isnt GW2 VS [insert game]

  • LaromussLaromuss vancouver, BCPosts: 324Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by cahenderson
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip
    Originally posted by cahenderson
    Originally posted by EricDanie
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip

    I will watch the Video later if I have time- But honestly I do not need to...Pretty sure I know whats said.

    I agree too- It does lack longevity. Its not a full fledged MMORPG (more like an ARPG with Massive Online components). Its very casual...

    But, its fun. And it doesnt need Longevity like a subscription title,

    GW2 has done some very creative marketing and essentially sold a F2P cash shop game for $50- $60. Then they will get a small Xpac out every year or so for another $40- $50. Most have at least purchased Bag space from the CS... They are making money hand over fist and do not NEED high player retention (just enough to keep the servers active) and each Xpac will bring an influx of former players back to the game for a short time.

    This was a genius marketing Blitz. And the game is fun.

    No. It doesnt have "staying power" and if it were based on a "sub" I would feel pretty ripped off and (obviously) not re sub...But they already sold me a box and some Bag Space and I play a few hours a week (and plan to play at a casual rate) and it makes a nice second Online game to play while taking a break from your main Game.

    I am happy.

    curious in your opinion as to how it's not a full fledged MMO? 

    My guess is because there is no gear grind to become and/or remain competitive. It is there for vanity (in the end it's just a game, even stats are for vanity), it's just not mandatory and it's not padded with weekly/daily timers either.

    Yeah, there's a certain type of player that can only measure their success by the 'teh lewtz' they get. GW2 isn't the game for them.

    Hmmmm- See I think you are trying to make something Black or White that is actually shades of grey.

    So if you dont like 'teh lewtz' why play a game with any levels, progression or anything at all? Why not play a game where there is no loot at all and everyone is 100% the same at all times.

    People like 'teh lootz' and treasure, and uniquness and being recognized for good play, etc...Most people, in fact. I enjoy finding better weapons and armor (or crafting them) which is why I play these games. If I wasnt worried at all about progressing my gear I would p-lay one of the hundreds of games that require no gear and hell, have no persistance at all.

     

    And that's fine. Games like WoW/LotRO/SWTOR, they all orient around the gear treadmill. Generally, how you progress in those games is by acquisition of better gear. You run dungeons to get dungeon gear, which makes it possible for you to do Beginner Raid, which gives you Rank1 gear which means you can now do Intermediate Raid. Same for the pvp in those games.

     

    GW2 is NOT that game. It is a continuance of the philosophy they established in GW1. Whether it was in PVE or PVP, the gear was the same level. The progression became how much better YOU got at your character. Yes, the gear treadmill games DO require some level of player skill. However, the focus was on the GEAR. The GW franchise is about YOU progressing. 

     

    "But that's not really progression" I hear people say. From your perspective, it's not. However, as much as 'you' are baffled by this, the rest of 'us' are almost equally baffled by the gear treadmill. "What do you do once you have the best gear?" we ask.

    "Now? Now we PLAY THE GAME"....

    For myself I found gear was not my driving force in the long run but in the later zones (level 75 -80 and 80)  I found myself engage in bigger fight/war that was raging and the events really required the effort of a lot of players and from various events to prepare for the bigger ones which required a full front war effort.  For example Lyssa event comes to mind, this one kept me coming back with newly recruited players and wanting to accomplish it since it really did help everyone in the end as it opened up access to skill point challenges, gear, spawn points and other missions.  So in the end it was seeing what I would be doing/accomplishing with others, rather than just thinking about what I would get in return (armor), I felt part of the world.   Immersion is the key and I feel that if they can make it just as dynamic and more immersive in the sense that everything you do in the zone does affect other players than it will have great longevity.  

    On a side note though, I do have a too much time on my hands since I'm on standby for major surgery this friday(been waiting for the past two months)  that I did blow through the content fairly fast and found that I had to break for a day or two before returning (which ties into the fundamentals of level design.  Players do get tired physically, mentally from doing too much for too long).  Any ways now i'm ranting but just my thoughts.

  • UkiahUkiah Austin, TXPosts: 273Member
    Originally posted by Enigmatus
    Originally posted by cahenderson

    "But that's not really progression" I hear people say. From your perspective, it's not. However, as much as 'you' are baffled by this, the rest of 'us' are almost equally baffled by the gear treadmill. "What do you do once you have the best gear?" we ask.

    "Now? Now we PLAY THE GAME"....

    I don't wanna sound like I'm ragging on WoW, but that part always confused me. If you only start playing the game AFTER you get all that loot, then what the hell were we doing for the past 90 levels?!

    Exactly. Hence the GW2 assertion "We want the entire game to be endgame". 

  • UkiahUkiah Austin, TXPosts: 273Member
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip
    Originally posted by cahenderson
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip
    Originally posted by cahenderson
    Yeah, there's a certain type of player that can only measure their success by the 'teh lewtz' they get. GW2 isn't the game for them.

    Hmmmm- See I think you are trying to make something Black or White that is actually shades of grey.

    So if you dont like 'teh lewtz' why play a game with any levels, progression or anything at all? Why not play a game where there is no loot at all and everyone is 100% the same at all times.

    People like 'teh lootz' and treasure, and uniquness and being recognized for good play, etc...Most people, in fact. I enjoy finding better weapons and armor (or crafting them) which is why I play these games. If I wasnt worried at all about progressing my gear I would p-lay one of the hundreds of games that require no gear and hell, have no persistance at all.

     

    And that's fine. Games like WoW/LotRO/SWTOR, they all orient around the gear treadmill. Generally, how you progress in those games is by acquisition of better gear. You run dungeons to get dungeon gear, which makes it possible for you to do Beginner Raid, which gives you Rank1 gear which means you can now do Intermediate Raid. Same for the pvp in those games.

     

    GW2 is NOT that game. It is a continuance of the philosophy they established in GW1. Whether it was in PVE or PVP, the gear was the same level. The progression became how much better YOU got at your character. Yes, the gear treadmill games DO require some level of player skill. However, the focus was on the GEAR. The GW franchise is about YOU progressing. 

     

    "But that's not really progression" I hear people say. From your perspective, it's not. However, as much as 'you' are baffled by this, the rest of 'us' are almost equally baffled by the gear treadmill. "What do you do once you have the best gear?" we ask.

    "Now? Now we PLAY THE GAME"....

    The context of my post was a responce to someone who I felt was trivializing the importance of gear in an mmorpg (even GW2). You are making this a whole seperate issue- But I agree with you , as it were. I am not defending WoWs gear treadmill but rather saying it adds longevity to the game.

    See, this isnt about "fun " factor, or which "game" is best, etc anymore than its about graphics.

    Its about longevity. It about what will keep someone playing. 

    That aside, with no sub and 18 billion boxes sold, GW2 is a success (its niot about failure or success either). We are 3 weeks or so in and I and others feel there isnt enough to hold our attention for long...This isnt GW2 VS [insert game]

    Trimming out some of the stuff to keep this down...

     

    I understand your point and I agree we're not as far apart in the argument as either of us originally thought. BUT... You can't say you doubt the games longevity because it lacks the gear progression WITHOUT drawing comparisons to the games that DO have it.

    You said, "Its about longevity. It about what will keep someone playing." You're asserting the thing that keeps you playing is the gear progression. I'm saying it IS the fun factor and the LACK of the gear progression that keeps me playing. Because I don't have the gear progression to rate my improvement, I have to do it via other means. *I* have to get better at playing my profession and it is in THIS aspect I find the most "fun factor" and "longevity".

     

  • ElSandmanElSandman BrisbanePosts: 94Member
    Originally posted by Jimmydean

    .....

    Really? Because I'm level 80, and getting full exotics is a hell of a grind. 42k karma per horribly statted piece, many G worth of mats for a horribly statted crafted set, or run countless explorable dungeons for the actual good exotics. I don't remember heroic dungeon gear / PVP gear being difficult / time consuming to get in WoW.

    Yep exactly!  This is the paradox of the game, and its PR hype.  Lets complain about every other game's grind and yet have the one of the most grindy end games of all.  A grind that matters very much in WvWvW.

  • SaintPhilipSaintPhilip Bree, MIPosts: 713Member
    Originally posted by ElSandman
    Originally posted by Jimmydean

    .....

    Really? Because I'm level 80, and getting full exotics is a hell of a grind. 42k karma per horribly statted piece, many G worth of mats for a horribly statted crafted set, or run countless explorable dungeons for the actual good exotics. I don't remember heroic dungeon gear / PVP gear being difficult / time consuming to get in WoW.

    Yep exactly!  This is the paradox of the game, and its PR hype.  Lets complain about every other game's grind and yet have the one of the most grindy end games of all.  A grind that matters very much in WvWvW.

    LOL this is funny-

    I will tell you why. If there really is a "grind" at the end (for non cosmetics) then I have been misinformed and my point(s) is/are moot. I was under the assumption that at 80 everyone was pretty well the same via gear (statwise) and only cosmetics could change.

    IF you are correct this voids at lease most of my argument about longevity (other than the interdependence/social areas) but also kinda sucks =D

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,596Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by cahenderson
    Originally posted by Enigmatus
    Originally posted by cahenderson

    "But that's not really progression" I hear people say. From your perspective, it's not. However, as much as 'you' are baffled by this, the rest of 'us' are almost equally baffled by the gear treadmill. "What do you do once you have the best gear?" we ask.

    "Now? Now we PLAY THE GAME"....

    I don't wanna sound like I'm ragging on WoW, but that part always confused me. If you only start playing the game AFTER you get all that loot, then what the hell were we doing for the past 90 levels?!

    Exactly. Hence the GW2 assertion "We want the entire game to be endgame". 

    But most of what players have labled as "endgame" in GW2, isn't. I remember doing what has generally been described as endgame in GW2, back in TBC WoW after hitting 70 so I could afford epic flight training. Going back, hitting up all the quests I missed, finishing the zones I didn't complete along the way. It's really not endgame, it's not new, and it's been done.

  • ElSandmanElSandman BrisbanePosts: 94Member
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip
    Originally posted by ElSandman
    Originally posted by Jimmydean

    .....

    Really? Because I'm level 80, and getting full exotics is a hell of a grind. 42k karma per horribly statted piece, many G worth of mats for a horribly statted crafted set, or run countless explorable dungeons for the actual good exotics. I don't remember heroic dungeon gear / PVP gear being difficult / time consuming to get in WoW.

    Yep exactly!  This is the paradox of the game, and its PR hype.  Lets complain about every other game's grind and yet have the one of the most grindy end games of all.  A grind that matters very much in WvWvW.

    LOL this is funny-

    I will tell you why. If there really is a "grind" at the end (for non cosmetics) then I have been misinformed and my point(s) is/are moot. I was under the assumption that at 80 everyone was pretty well the same via gear (statwise) and only cosmetics could change.

    IF you are correct this voids at lease most of my argument about longevity (other than the interdependence/social areas) but also kinda sucks =D

    Perhaps, but the question I would ask, is do you really want to get on this gear grind in this high unsocial game in the first place?

    I am not really hearing that these dungeons are well designed, great fun experiences.  I am hearing that they are chaotic, zerg-fests resulting  in expensive repair bills (Cash shop anyone?).

    So yes, you are right that it is a good thing that you have to earn your end game gear, but do you really want to in this game?

     

  • TerrorizorTerrorizor Red Beer, ABPosts: 326Member
    Originally posted by ElSandman
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip
    Originally posted by ElSandman
    Originally posted by Jimmydean

    .....

    Really? Because I'm level 80, and getting full exotics is a hell of a grind. 42k karma per horribly statted piece, many G worth of mats for a horribly statted crafted set, or run countless explorable dungeons for the actual good exotics. I don't remember heroic dungeon gear / PVP gear being difficult / time consuming to get in WoW.

    Yep exactly!  This is the paradox of the game, and its PR hype.  Lets complain about every other game's grind and yet have the one of the most grindy end games of all.  A grind that matters very much in WvWvW.

    LOL this is funny-

    I will tell you why. If there really is a "grind" at the end (for non cosmetics) then I have been misinformed and my point(s) is/are moot. I was under the assumption that at 80 everyone was pretty well the same via gear (statwise) and only cosmetics could change.

    IF you are correct this voids at lease most of my argument about longevity (other than the interdependence/social areas) but also kinda sucks =D

    Perhaps, but the question I would ask, is do you really want to get on this gear grind in this high unsocial game in the first place?

    I am not really hearing that these dungeons are well designed, great fun experiences.  I am hearing that they are chaotic, zerg-fests resulting  in expensive repair bills (Cash shop anyone?).

    So yes, you are right that it is a good thing that you have to earn your end game gear, but do you really want to in this game?

     

    Are we gaining this enlightenment from someone who doesn't play the game?

  • ElSandmanElSandman BrisbanePosts: 94Member
    Originally posted by Terrorizor
    Originally posted by ElSandman
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip
    Originally posted by ElSandman
    Originally posted by Jimmydean

    .....

    Really? Because I'm level 80, and getting full exotics is a hell of a grind. 42k karma per horribly statted piece, many G worth of mats for a horribly statted crafted set, or run countless explorable dungeons for the actual good exotics. I don't remember heroic dungeon gear / PVP gear being difficult / time consuming to get in WoW.

    Yep exactly!  This is the paradox of the game, and its PR hype.  Lets complain about every other game's grind and yet have the one of the most grindy end games of all.  A grind that matters very much in WvWvW.

    LOL this is funny-

    I will tell you why. If there really is a "grind" at the end (for non cosmetics) then I have been misinformed and my point(s) is/are moot. I was under the assumption that at 80 everyone was pretty well the same via gear (statwise) and only cosmetics could change.

    IF you are correct this voids at lease most of my argument about longevity (other than the interdependence/social areas) but also kinda sucks =D

    Perhaps, but the question I would ask, is do you really want to get on this gear grind in this high unsocial game in the first place?

    I am not really hearing that these dungeons are well designed, great fun experiences.  I am hearing that they are chaotic, zerg-fests resulting  in expensive repair bills (Cash shop anyone?).

    So yes, you are right that it is a good thing that you have to earn your end game gear, but do you really want to in this game?

     

    Are we gaining this enlightenment from someone who doesn't play the game?

    I have a level 32 thief and a level 16 Mesmer.

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