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Socializing getting the shaft, from us the players?

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  • TerranahTerranah Stockton, CAPosts: 3,605Member
    In SWG my characters had their little lives and my friends had theirs.  Roleplay just seemed to come naturally on account of how the game was designed, and socializing naturally followed.  I haven't had much cause for socializing since, or at least not to the same degree.  I think most mmo these days are not designed for socializing beyond the utilitarian.
  • TardcoreTardcore MinskPosts: 2,325Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Most socialization occurs during "downtime." Games today just do not have downtime. You instantly heal after every fight and queue up for group content and go. People seldom sit and chat anymore.

    Yeah I think this pretty much nails it. People are just caught up in the game rush. More and more developers adding solocentric, or at least smaller more focused group content has sent the social portion of these games into a tighter and tighter spiral, where any interaction with the majorty of other players isn't needed anymore. Well at least until you need some warm bodies to PUG a dungeon, but most games haved added tools to turn even that experience into a completely non-personal one.

     

    It seems as more companies "streamline" MMOs they start to resemble certain "other" types of games, and the community seems to be mutating with them.

     

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  • FreezzoFreezzo EnschedePosts: 235Member

    So lets take a recent example. Just this friday I decided to pick up GW2 and when the installation was done I jumped into the game. At every dynamic event, heart, wherever I saw people I said "Hi." or "Enjoying the game?". Aside from a few random yes/hi answers nobody even stopped to talk.

    If you want socialisation you have to seek it out is what I read a lot here. Talking to other players doesn't seem to work. Talking in map (area) chat doesn't seem to work either, because of LFG spam. Looking for a guild that's not just massive in size, but focused on a smaller group (below the 40 people mark) are rare. I ended up transfering servers because I found out some friends from other games were playing there. I remember the days where people talked to one another, asked to group/play together (as grouping is just the formality) and actually wanted to meet people in these games...

    I think quite a lot has to do with the pacing of the game. GW2 is a fast game. You go in, do stuff, you're done. A themepark. I play it my way and press the walk button, enjoy the environment, want to chat to other people and have fun with others in a game. I detest single player games, not because they're bad, but because I like playing with or against other people. If a game is entertaining and there's a lot of nice/social people around then I will have fun and so will they.

    Also on a sidenote: The first MMORPG I played was a korean grindfest, but I played it for a long time because all of the active playerbase knew eachother. You had a reputation, guilds had reputations and even hate (world boss killstealing and all that), but at least there was a community where people knew eachother. Also the better xp when in a group helped, but you did need a full group of 7 for it to get the xp bonus. (about 5x kill speed for 80% of xp per kill, which is huge for a grind game)

    "We need men who can dream of things that never were." - John F. Kennedy
    And for MMORPGs ever so true...

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tardcore
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Most socialization occurs during "downtime." Games today just do not have downtime. You instantly heal after every fight and queue up for group content and go. People seldom sit and chat anymore.

    Yeah I think this pretty much nails it. People are just caught up in the game rush. More and more developers adding solocentric, or at least smaller more focused group content has sent the social portion of these games into a tighter and tighter spiral, where any interaction with the majorty of other players isn't needed anymore. Well at least until you need some warm bodies to PUG a dungeon, but most games haved added tools to turn even that experience into a completely non-personal one.

     

    It seems as more companies "streamline" MMOs they start to resemble certain "other" types of games, and the community seems to be mutating with them.

     

    You are correct, this does nail it, it' s not really the players so much as the game mechanics themselves, they just don't permit time for socialization, at least outside of the voice chat you might have going on with your guildmates. (and even then).

    Apparently this is what the majority of the player base wanted, but if so I can't figure out why they all leave so quickly after just a few months. (OK, welll maybe that's what they wanted too, a quick in and out experience.)

    Until they slow the pacing down some, socialization in MMO's isn't likely to return anytime soon, everyone is just too busy "playing the game", which is what they prefer these days it seems.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,672Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Most socialization occurs during "downtime." Games today just do not have downtime. You instantly heal after every fight and queue up for group content and go. People seldom sit and chat anymore.

    How do you explain UO?

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Dewm

    But nowdays everything is so fast paced, you join a random group, 1-2minutes.. you get auto transported to the begenning on the dungeon, you zone in...start kiling stuff and all of the skills happen so fast and have fast enough of a cooldown that not many people chat and there is no communications, which not only leads to less socializing but also less communications leads to more mistakes = more disasters.. frustration etc..

    so I guess I'm wondering what your opinion is.

    Sometimes, people begin to talk despite all of the barriers placed in their way.

    Maybe it's time we stopped blaming corporations for (literally) everything.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • TobiasGreyTobiasGrey Worcester, MAPosts: 166Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Dewm

    But nowdays everything is so fast paced, you join a random group, 1-2minutes.. you get auto transported to the begenning on the dungeon, you zone in...start kiling stuff and all of the skills happen so fast and have fast enough of a cooldown that not many people chat and there is no communications, which not only leads to less socializing but also less communications leads to more mistakes = more disasters.. frustration etc..

    so I guess I'm wondering what your opinion is.

    Sometimes, people begin to talk despite all of the barriers placed in their way.

    Maybe it's time we stopped blaming corporations for (literally) everything.

    Maybe it's time we start to realize that game mechanics have an impact on how people play a game?

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,672Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Dewm

    But nowdays everything is so fast paced, you join a random group, 1-2minutes.. you get auto transported to the begenning on the dungeon, you zone in...start kiling stuff and all of the skills happen so fast and have fast enough of a cooldown that not many people chat and there is no communications, which not only leads to less socializing but also less communications leads to more mistakes = more disasters.. frustration etc..

    so I guess I'm wondering what your opinion is.

    Sometimes, people begin to talk despite all of the barriers placed in their way.

    Maybe it's time we stopped blaming corporations for (literally) everything.

    Maybe it's time we start to realize that game mechanics have an impact on how people play a game?

    If your argument is that they should have more locations, tool and resources for social interaction, then I agree.

    If your argument is that the game has a regular cadence of progression and without forcing people to pause they will just run in their exercise wheel til they pass out, then I disagree - that's a people issue.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • SlampigSlampig Chantilly, VAPosts: 2,376Member Uncommon

    It is totally the fault of the players, and the newer generation of players that came into the genre after WoW got so huge. I see this influx of gamers that came from the consoles and first-person shooters. They were used to quick deathmatches and that type of gameplay and carried it into the MMORPGs that we love.

    To blame the game mechanics is goofey. The games  don't keep people from saying hello while in a group. I seem to always find time to do that when I group up. It is laziness from the players that brings this type of thread about.

    That's my take on the subject, so whatever.

    That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  • TobiasGreyTobiasGrey Worcester, MAPosts: 166Member
    Originally posted by Slampig

    It is totally the fault of the players, and the newer generation of players that came into the genre after WoW got so huge. I see this influx of gamers that came from the consoles and first-person shooters. They were used to quick deathmatches and that type of gameplay and carried it into the MMORPGs that we love.

    To blame the game mechanics is goofey. The games  don't keep people from saying hello while in a group. I seem to always find time to do that when I group up. It is laziness from the players that brings this type of thread about.

    That's my take on the subject, so whatever.

    Your lack of understanding and perspective is astounding.

    It's basic human nature to take the easy way out. When games provide that easy way, even social players will take it sometime. Not everyone is made of stone.

    However, if a game is social, it will encourage other social players to join it, and a community will form.

    You blame the people, ok... anti social games attract the anti social people. The social people go to the social games.

    So it IS based on the mechanics.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,672Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by Slampig

    It is totally the fault of the players, and the newer generation of players that came into the genre after WoW got so huge. I see this influx of gamers that came from the consoles and first-person shooters. They were used to quick deathmatches and that type of gameplay and carried it into the MMORPGs that we love.

    To blame the game mechanics is goofey. The games  don't keep people from saying hello while in a group. I seem to always find time to do that when I group up. It is laziness from the players that brings this type of thread about.

    That's my take on the subject, so whatever.

    Your lack of understanding and perspective is astounding.

    It's basic human nature to take the easy way out. When games provide that easy way, even social players will take it sometime. Not everyone is made of stone.

    However, if a game is social, it will encourage other social players to join it, and a community will form.

    You blame the people, ok... anti social games attract the anti social people. The social people go to the social games.

    So it IS based on the mechanics.

    Can you explain what you mean by "if a game is social"?

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • TobiasGreyTobiasGrey Worcester, MAPosts: 166Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by Slampig

    It is totally the fault of the players, and the newer generation of players that came into the genre after WoW got so huge. I see this influx of gamers that came from the consoles and first-person shooters. They were used to quick deathmatches and that type of gameplay and carried it into the MMORPGs that we love.

    To blame the game mechanics is goofey. The games  don't keep people from saying hello while in a group. I seem to always find time to do that when I group up. It is laziness from the players that brings this type of thread about.

    That's my take on the subject, so whatever.

    Your lack of understanding and perspective is astounding.

    It's basic human nature to take the easy way out. When games provide that easy way, even social players will take it sometime. Not everyone is made of stone.

    However, if a game is social, it will encourage other social players to join it, and a community will form.

    You blame the people, ok... anti social games attract the anti social people. The social people go to the social games.

    So it IS based on the mechanics.

    Can you explain what you mean by "if a game is social"?

    If a game is built around players working together, be it with crafting, housing, dungeons, general PvE and survivability, it will

    a) attract people that enjoy that kind of socializing

    b) it'll mold other people playing the game into being more social, because it's more beneficial for them to be social

    When a game gives you the same or better rewards for NOT socializing... no social atmosphere will take root, because it doesn't need to.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,672Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by Slampig

    It is totally the fault of the players, and the newer generation of players that came into the genre after WoW got so huge. I see this influx of gamers that came from the consoles and first-person shooters. They were used to quick deathmatches and that type of gameplay and carried it into the MMORPGs that we love.

    To blame the game mechanics is goofey. The games  don't keep people from saying hello while in a group. I seem to always find time to do that when I group up. It is laziness from the players that brings this type of thread about.

    That's my take on the subject, so whatever.

    Your lack of understanding and perspective is astounding.

    It's basic human nature to take the easy way out. When games provide that easy way, even social players will take it sometime. Not everyone is made of stone.

    However, if a game is social, it will encourage other social players to join it, and a community will form.

    You blame the people, ok... anti social games attract the anti social people. The social people go to the social games.

    So it IS based on the mechanics.

    Can you explain what you mean by "if a game is social"?

    If a game is built around players working together, be it with crafting, housing, dungeons, general PvE and survivability, it will

    a) attract people that enjoy that kind of socializing

    b) it'll mold other people playing the game into being more social, because it's more beneficial for them to be social

    When a game gives you the same or better rewards for NOT socializing... no social atmosphere will take root, because it doesn't need to.

    So it's the Grouping = Socializing argument. I guess that could work, however it's never been seen to extend any level of socializing beyond the guild/clan unit.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • TobiasGreyTobiasGrey Worcester, MAPosts: 166Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by Slampig

    It is totally the fault of the players, and the newer generation of players that came into the genre after WoW got so huge. I see this influx of gamers that came from the consoles and first-person shooters. They were used to quick deathmatches and that type of gameplay and carried it into the MMORPGs that we love.

    To blame the game mechanics is goofey. The games  don't keep people from saying hello while in a group. I seem to always find time to do that when I group up. It is laziness from the players that brings this type of thread about.

    That's my take on the subject, so whatever.

    Your lack of understanding and perspective is astounding.

    It's basic human nature to take the easy way out. When games provide that easy way, even social players will take it sometime. Not everyone is made of stone.

    However, if a game is social, it will encourage other social players to join it, and a community will form.

    You blame the people, ok... anti social games attract the anti social people. The social people go to the social games.

    So it IS based on the mechanics.

    Can you explain what you mean by "if a game is social"?

    If a game is built around players working together, be it with crafting, housing, dungeons, general PvE and survivability, it will

    a) attract people that enjoy that kind of socializing

    b) it'll mold other people playing the game into being more social, because it's more beneficial for them to be social

    When a game gives you the same or better rewards for NOT socializing... no social atmosphere will take root, because it doesn't need to.

    So it's the Grouping = Socializing argument. I guess that could work, however it's never been seen to extend any level of socializing beyond the guild/clan unit.

    Have you ever played an MMO before WoW? In DAoC, the primary form of grouping was with PUGs. There were occasional guild events, but since there was no instancing and you benefitted from working with others more than by yourself, people socialized.

    And no, its not the "grouping = socializing" argument. It's the "if there are game mechanics that reward people for working together in ANY capacity, there is the groundwork for socializing" argument.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    So it's the Grouping = Socializing argument. I guess that could work, however it's never been seen to extend any level of socializing beyond the guild/clan unit.

    Really? I read it as the "co-dependency = socializing", ala EQ1.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • TobiasGreyTobiasGrey Worcester, MAPosts: 166Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    So it's the Grouping = Socializing argument. I guess that could work, however it's never been seen to extend any level of socializing beyond the guild/clan unit.

    Really? I read it as the "co-dependency = socializing", ala EQ1.

    Co-dependency is not the same as giving better rewards for doing things as a group. In DAoC you could solo all you wanted, but it wasn't going to be as fast as grouping. Grouping is a much harder thing to do, so by design it should yield a greater reward, or people won't do it, and then the feature will vanish for those that like it. It happened in DAoC after they added /level 20 and kill tasks to the game.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    So it's the Grouping = Socializing argument. I guess that could work, however it's never been seen to extend any level of socializing beyond the guild/clan unit.

    Really? I read it as the "co-dependency = socializing", ala EQ1.

    Co-dependency is not the same as giving better rewards for doing things as a group. In DAoC you could solo all you wanted, but it wasn't going to be as fast as grouping. Grouping is a much harder thing to do, so by design it should yield a greater reward, or people won't do it, and then the feature will vanish for those that like it. It happened in DAoC after they added /level 20 and kill tasks to the game.

    I'm starting to think DAOC might have been a bit of a unique animal in terms of how the group mechanics worked, Mythic seemed to have hit more or less the perfect storm in terms of balance between soloing and grouping, at least in terms of encouraging players to group.

    I didn't play every title back then (who had the time), but the ones I did play had nothing really resembling it.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • TobiasGreyTobiasGrey Worcester, MAPosts: 166Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    So it's the Grouping = Socializing argument. I guess that could work, however it's never been seen to extend any level of socializing beyond the guild/clan unit.

    Really? I read it as the "co-dependency = socializing", ala EQ1.

    Co-dependency is not the same as giving better rewards for doing things as a group. In DAoC you could solo all you wanted, but it wasn't going to be as fast as grouping. Grouping is a much harder thing to do, so by design it should yield a greater reward, or people won't do it, and then the feature will vanish for those that like it. It happened in DAoC after they added /level 20 and kill tasks to the game.

    I'm starting to think DAOC might have been a bit of a unique animal in terms of how the group mechanics worked, Mythic seemed to have hit more or less the perfect storm in terms of balance between soloing and grouping, at least in terms of encouraging players to group.

    I didn't play every title back then (who had the time), but the ones I did play had nothing really resembling it.

     

    DAoC did indeed do a ton right. The camp bonus system which encouraged groups to travel around? Group bonus xp? The exponential rate of increasing efficiency when a group added players? I wish WoW had copied DAoC's model, maybe then the game would be more enjoyable to play for everyone. But, the Blizzard devs were all raiders from EQ, so they recreated a watered down version of that experience, warts and all.

  • LorkiiLorkii Vancouver, BCPosts: 88Member
    I can say with all honesty, I made more friends and chatted more with 1 Darkness Falls Princes raid in DAOC, then I have in all games combined since WoW. It s sad but true, only other game that comes close and was FFXI. Really miss the old school ways. Too many console gaming, go go go go go go crowd entered the genre.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,672Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    So it's the Grouping = Socializing argument. I guess that could work, however it's never been seen to extend any level of socializing beyond the guild/clan unit.

    Really? I read it as the "co-dependency = socializing", ala EQ1.

    Co-dependency seems to be related but separate from what he is saying. His post and the follow up reply were about group rewards and grouping. I completely agree that co-dependency is a way to get players functioning as a group, albeit a borderline sick one. :) .

    Getting people to group to do tasks and getting people to socialize are two completely different things, the former being one possible way to work toward the other but the argument that grouping = socializing is false, as collaborative efforts and creative expression, especially outside the realm of combat mechanics, have proven to create far more social interaction beyond the insular guild unit.

    The strength of collaborative or creative content lies in its voluntary nature. This is in stark contrast to grouping and co-dependency, where the reason for forming the group is necessity, as they are handicapped or hindered from progressing further without doing so.

    If you read the posts about grouping as a social catalyst, they have one thing in common - combat rewards. It is a consistent theme. Now, if we are going to say that MMOs are now and shall forever be just fantasy level-based games where combat is the only path of progression, then I would agree with their stance wholeheartedly. However, virtual worlds such as UO, ATITD, Socialotron, Puzzle Pirates, EVE Online, Muxlim, and a host of others do exist and do offer content that promotes socializing without forcing people to be tethered to another guy in order to get a reward as the reason to do it.

    Lawmaking, player councils, game-filled taverns, and other features allow players to go places to meet up with others looking to socialize. Player-editable books and paper, bulletin boards, broadcast and chat tools, ladder/tournament tools, playter event tools and social network sites ( ex: BSN and  EQPlayers) also facilitate this both in-game and out.

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • TobiasGreyTobiasGrey Worcester, MAPosts: 166Member
    Originally posted by Lorkii
    I can say with all honesty, I made more friends and chatted more with 1 Darkness Falls Princes raid in DAOC, then I have in all games combined since WoW. It s sad but true, only other game that comes close and was FFXI. Really miss the old school ways. Too many console gaming, go go go go go go crowd entered the genre.

    Well in DAoC, raids were an open affair. Anyone could join in the fun. In games like WoW and EQ, they're locked out, linear progression, clique/elistist guild exclusive events.

  • grimalgrimal Stamford, CTPosts: 2,874Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tardcore
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Most socialization occurs during "downtime." Games today just do not have downtime. You instantly heal after every fight and queue up for group content and go. People seldom sit and chat anymore.

    Yeah I think this pretty much nails it. People are just caught up in the game rush. More and more developers adding solocentric, or at least smaller more focused group content has sent the social portion of these games into a tighter and tighter spiral, where any interaction with the majorty of other players isn't needed anymore. Well at least until you need some warm bodies to PUG a dungeon, but most games haved added tools to turn even that experience into a completely non-personal one.

     

    It seems as more companies "streamline" MMOs they start to resemble certain "other" types of games, and the community seems to be mutating with them.

     

    This absolutely.

    I'm just afraid of the day when people forget how to socialize at all in these games; or are we already there?

    P.S. Tard - I very much enjoy reading your posts (completely serious). What MMO are you playing these days?

  • LorkiiLorkii Vancouver, BCPosts: 88Member
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by Lorkii
    I can say with all honesty, I made more friends and chatted more with 1 Darkness Falls Princes raid in DAOC, then I have in all games combined since WoW. It s sad but true, only other game that comes close and was FFXI. Really miss the old school ways. Too many console gaming, go go go go go go crowd entered the genre.

    Well in DAoC, raids were an open affair. Anyone could join in the fun. In games like WoW and EQ, they're locked out, linear progression, clique/elistist guild exclusive events.

    I agree, but DAOC in general, had way more socializing then those games combined. Just going on what I experienced.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,672Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    So it's the Grouping = Socializing argument. I guess that could work, however it's never been seen to extend any level of socializing beyond the guild/clan unit.

    Really? I read it as the "co-dependency = socializing", ala EQ1.

    Co-dependency is not the same as giving better rewards for doing things as a group. In DAoC you could solo all you wanted, but it wasn't going to be as fast as grouping. Grouping is a much harder thing to do, so by design it should yield a greater reward, or people won't do it, and then the feature will vanish for those that like it. It happened in DAoC after they added /level 20 and kill tasks to the game.

    I'm starting to think DAOC might have been a bit of a unique animal in terms of how the group mechanics worked, Mythic seemed to have hit more or less the perfect storm in terms of balance between soloing and grouping, at least in terms of encouraging players to group.

    I didn't play every title back then (who had the time), but the ones I did play had nothing really resembling it.

    DAoC was definitely a unique animal, and I think even Mythic is searching for the answer to what magic they had created there that made the game as much of a social experience as it was. Some that I feel really contributed to the experience:

    • Common mythology - people came into the game with a working knowledge of the lore and were offered a choice of which area of the lore they preferred. Coming out the gate the game had already put people with common interest together. They gave a diverse group of people a common topic to work with and a comon interest to share.
    • Relatively dedicated crafters - you probably remember who your guild's crafters were. Your guild's crafters probably remember the names of the other crafters in their realm, as they traded with them and spent a lot of time at the same forges and crafting stations with them. There were roles beyond just Killer of Things and people in those other roles spent time with similarly interested parties.
    • Strong forum and community support - Team Leads, an active forum community and a site that regularly promoted player creations and player sites let players build their communities around the web. MMOs currently work toward bringing all the info under their official site. The communities that built around sites such as UO Stratics, DAoC Catacombs and Allakhazam are rare these days. I admit, this one is a double edged sword, as the loss of the smaller communities is replaced by better availability and a central location for information for the community as a whole.
     
    There's probably a dozen more aspects that contributed to the atmosphere of DAoC, with "staring at the wall waiting for a bar to fill up so I might as well talk" being really low on the list. :)
     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • GrumpyMel2GrumpyMel2 Catskills, NYPosts: 1,832Member
    Originally posted by Calerxes

    There is plenty of interdependency in modern MMO's its just not forced it happens naturally through playing the game. If you choose not to see it thats your problem. 

    Calerxes, I think you have some confusion about the use of the term "interdependancy"....by it's very definition it is "forced"..

    "interdependence" is a relationship in which each member is mutually dependent on the others.

    Dependent means not just that you want some form of assistance from the other individual but that you actualy NEED it.

    Now, you may or may not like the concept of interdependance in a game but by it's very definition it is "forced"...if not then it's something else... perhaps "interaction" would qualify....

    Personaly, I think "interedependance" as a design goal for a game makes for a better game community, atmosphere and player experience (i.e. "fun" ).

    Clearly it is POSSIBLE to play socialy in modern MMO's (or games without those design mechanics) but that does not mean such games are actualy CONDUSCIVE to such play.

    For example, I'm an avid RP-er and was part of quite an active RP guild in LOTRO. While we were able to do stuff....for the most part we fealt that the game and it's mechanics were FIGHTING AGAINST what we were trying to do rather then SUPPORTING it. I'll give you some specific examples of what I'm talking about.

                  - Kinda tough to RP storylines and the actual movement of events in a completely static environment where nothing ever changes and the players actions essentialy have no effect on the environment. By contrast in the MUD's I've played in, the GM's actualy ran storylines/arcs themselves which the players participated in, the players actions made a difference in the outcome of those storylines and actualy had significant lasting effects on the game environment.

                 - Significantly limited in the content on could RP against, when much of that content was tucked away in "private instances" with predefined group sizes that would not fit into your RP group (meaning such content/environments could not be used without excluding members).

              - Difficult to RP in Open World areas and present any real sense of danger/difficulty to the group when most of the open world content was scaled to a single individuals and even doing it with even 2 characters was so laughably easy that you could do it while asleep.

              - Difficult to RP in Open World areas because in doing so we were actualy distrubing the play of other players who were trying to use those areas to level and were not interested in nor understood the concept of RP-ing and did not want it "messing up thier game."  As a RP-er, RPing only really works well when those around you are participating. It's an inclusive activity.... and the last thing you want to do is disturb someone elses play who is not interested in it....so you are essentialy "ghetto-ized" to try to find someplace that is deserted of others in order to pursue your chosen play style without annoying others....because there is no clear understanding that (RP-ing) is a commonly accepted focus of play among the community.

             - No PvP allowed in the Open World (other then timed duels)....so difficult to construct your own storylines that involve conflict. The one place that allows PvMP.... the players there mostly see that as a "competitive PvP environment" so attempting to use that as a backdrop for conflict generates complaints among the other players in that environment...because once again you are disturbing thier play...and they view what you are doing as not an accepted/intended  use of that environment (see point above).

    I could go on...as there are plenty of others...but hopefully I am making my point. Yes, we could RP (and socialize) in that game (LOTRO) but functionaly we were left with little better mechanisms then we could have gotten out of a chat room. In fact in many ways less.....since at least in a chat room you aren't disturbing other peoples use of that environment..... and LOTRO was actualy supposed to be one of the most heavly RP oriented modern MMO's released.

    Yes you could do it....and yes you could socialize...but it was largely IN SPITE of the game...and not DUE TO IT. Contrast this to some of the older MUDS where the entire design focus of the game is built around supporting that style of play.

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