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Socializing getting the shaft, from us the players?

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  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Most socialization occurs during "downtime." Games today just do not have downtime. You instantly heal after every fight and queue up for group content and go. People seldom sit and chat anymore.

    How do you explain UO?

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Originally posted by Dewm

    But nowdays everything is so fast paced, you join a random group, 1-2minutes.. you get auto transported to the begenning on the dungeon, you zone in...start kiling stuff and all of the skills happen so fast and have fast enough of a cooldown that not many people chat and there is no communications, which not only leads to less socializing but also less communications leads to more mistakes = more disasters.. frustration etc..

    so I guess I'm wondering what your opinion is.

    Sometimes, people begin to talk despite all of the barriers placed in their way.

    Maybe it's time we stopped blaming corporations for (literally) everything.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • TobiasGreyTobiasGrey Member Posts: 166
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Dewm

    But nowdays everything is so fast paced, you join a random group, 1-2minutes.. you get auto transported to the begenning on the dungeon, you zone in...start kiling stuff and all of the skills happen so fast and have fast enough of a cooldown that not many people chat and there is no communications, which not only leads to less socializing but also less communications leads to more mistakes = more disasters.. frustration etc..

    so I guess I'm wondering what your opinion is.

    Sometimes, people begin to talk despite all of the barriers placed in their way.

    Maybe it's time we stopped blaming corporations for (literally) everything.

    Maybe it's time we start to realize that game mechanics have an impact on how people play a game?

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Dewm

    But nowdays everything is so fast paced, you join a random group, 1-2minutes.. you get auto transported to the begenning on the dungeon, you zone in...start kiling stuff and all of the skills happen so fast and have fast enough of a cooldown that not many people chat and there is no communications, which not only leads to less socializing but also less communications leads to more mistakes = more disasters.. frustration etc..

    so I guess I'm wondering what your opinion is.

    Sometimes, people begin to talk despite all of the barriers placed in their way.

    Maybe it's time we stopped blaming corporations for (literally) everything.

    Maybe it's time we start to realize that game mechanics have an impact on how people play a game?

    If your argument is that they should have more locations, tool and resources for social interaction, then I agree.

    If your argument is that the game has a regular cadence of progression and without forcing people to pause they will just run in their exercise wheel til they pass out, then I disagree - that's a people issue.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • SlampigSlampig Member UncommonPosts: 2,342

    It is totally the fault of the players, and the newer generation of players that came into the genre after WoW got so huge. I see this influx of gamers that came from the consoles and first-person shooters. They were used to quick deathmatches and that type of gameplay and carried it into the MMORPGs that we love.

    To blame the game mechanics is goofey. The games  don't keep people from saying hello while in a group. I seem to always find time to do that when I group up. It is laziness from the players that brings this type of thread about.

    That's my take on the subject, so whatever.

    That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  • TobiasGreyTobiasGrey Member Posts: 166
    Originally posted by Slampig

    It is totally the fault of the players, and the newer generation of players that came into the genre after WoW got so huge. I see this influx of gamers that came from the consoles and first-person shooters. They were used to quick deathmatches and that type of gameplay and carried it into the MMORPGs that we love.

    To blame the game mechanics is goofey. The games  don't keep people from saying hello while in a group. I seem to always find time to do that when I group up. It is laziness from the players that brings this type of thread about.

    That's my take on the subject, so whatever.

    Your lack of understanding and perspective is astounding.

    It's basic human nature to take the easy way out. When games provide that easy way, even social players will take it sometime. Not everyone is made of stone.

    However, if a game is social, it will encourage other social players to join it, and a community will form.

    You blame the people, ok... anti social games attract the anti social people. The social people go to the social games.

    So it IS based on the mechanics.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by Slampig

    It is totally the fault of the players, and the newer generation of players that came into the genre after WoW got so huge. I see this influx of gamers that came from the consoles and first-person shooters. They were used to quick deathmatches and that type of gameplay and carried it into the MMORPGs that we love.

    To blame the game mechanics is goofey. The games  don't keep people from saying hello while in a group. I seem to always find time to do that when I group up. It is laziness from the players that brings this type of thread about.

    That's my take on the subject, so whatever.

    Your lack of understanding and perspective is astounding.

    It's basic human nature to take the easy way out. When games provide that easy way, even social players will take it sometime. Not everyone is made of stone.

    However, if a game is social, it will encourage other social players to join it, and a community will form.

    You blame the people, ok... anti social games attract the anti social people. The social people go to the social games.

    So it IS based on the mechanics.

    Can you explain what you mean by "if a game is social"?

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • TobiasGreyTobiasGrey Member Posts: 166
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by Slampig

    It is totally the fault of the players, and the newer generation of players that came into the genre after WoW got so huge. I see this influx of gamers that came from the consoles and first-person shooters. They were used to quick deathmatches and that type of gameplay and carried it into the MMORPGs that we love.

    To blame the game mechanics is goofey. The games  don't keep people from saying hello while in a group. I seem to always find time to do that when I group up. It is laziness from the players that brings this type of thread about.

    That's my take on the subject, so whatever.

    Your lack of understanding and perspective is astounding.

    It's basic human nature to take the easy way out. When games provide that easy way, even social players will take it sometime. Not everyone is made of stone.

    However, if a game is social, it will encourage other social players to join it, and a community will form.

    You blame the people, ok... anti social games attract the anti social people. The social people go to the social games.

    So it IS based on the mechanics.

    Can you explain what you mean by "if a game is social"?

    If a game is built around players working together, be it with crafting, housing, dungeons, general PvE and survivability, it will

    a) attract people that enjoy that kind of socializing

    b) it'll mold other people playing the game into being more social, because it's more beneficial for them to be social

    When a game gives you the same or better rewards for NOT socializing... no social atmosphere will take root, because it doesn't need to.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by Slampig

    It is totally the fault of the players, and the newer generation of players that came into the genre after WoW got so huge. I see this influx of gamers that came from the consoles and first-person shooters. They were used to quick deathmatches and that type of gameplay and carried it into the MMORPGs that we love.

    To blame the game mechanics is goofey. The games  don't keep people from saying hello while in a group. I seem to always find time to do that when I group up. It is laziness from the players that brings this type of thread about.

    That's my take on the subject, so whatever.

    Your lack of understanding and perspective is astounding.

    It's basic human nature to take the easy way out. When games provide that easy way, even social players will take it sometime. Not everyone is made of stone.

    However, if a game is social, it will encourage other social players to join it, and a community will form.

    You blame the people, ok... anti social games attract the anti social people. The social people go to the social games.

    So it IS based on the mechanics.

    Can you explain what you mean by "if a game is social"?

    If a game is built around players working together, be it with crafting, housing, dungeons, general PvE and survivability, it will

    a) attract people that enjoy that kind of socializing

    b) it'll mold other people playing the game into being more social, because it's more beneficial for them to be social

    When a game gives you the same or better rewards for NOT socializing... no social atmosphere will take root, because it doesn't need to.

    So it's the Grouping = Socializing argument. I guess that could work, however it's never been seen to extend any level of socializing beyond the guild/clan unit.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • TobiasGreyTobiasGrey Member Posts: 166
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by Slampig

    It is totally the fault of the players, and the newer generation of players that came into the genre after WoW got so huge. I see this influx of gamers that came from the consoles and first-person shooters. They were used to quick deathmatches and that type of gameplay and carried it into the MMORPGs that we love.

    To blame the game mechanics is goofey. The games  don't keep people from saying hello while in a group. I seem to always find time to do that when I group up. It is laziness from the players that brings this type of thread about.

    That's my take on the subject, so whatever.

    Your lack of understanding and perspective is astounding.

    It's basic human nature to take the easy way out. When games provide that easy way, even social players will take it sometime. Not everyone is made of stone.

    However, if a game is social, it will encourage other social players to join it, and a community will form.

    You blame the people, ok... anti social games attract the anti social people. The social people go to the social games.

    So it IS based on the mechanics.

    Can you explain what you mean by "if a game is social"?

    If a game is built around players working together, be it with crafting, housing, dungeons, general PvE and survivability, it will

    a) attract people that enjoy that kind of socializing

    b) it'll mold other people playing the game into being more social, because it's more beneficial for them to be social

    When a game gives you the same or better rewards for NOT socializing... no social atmosphere will take root, because it doesn't need to.

    So it's the Grouping = Socializing argument. I guess that could work, however it's never been seen to extend any level of socializing beyond the guild/clan unit.

    Have you ever played an MMO before WoW? In DAoC, the primary form of grouping was with PUGs. There were occasional guild events, but since there was no instancing and you benefitted from working with others more than by yourself, people socialized.

    And no, its not the "grouping = socializing" argument. It's the "if there are game mechanics that reward people for working together in ANY capacity, there is the groundwork for socializing" argument.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    So it's the Grouping = Socializing argument. I guess that could work, however it's never been seen to extend any level of socializing beyond the guild/clan unit.

    Really? I read it as the "co-dependency = socializing", ala EQ1.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • TobiasGreyTobiasGrey Member Posts: 166
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    So it's the Grouping = Socializing argument. I guess that could work, however it's never been seen to extend any level of socializing beyond the guild/clan unit.

    Really? I read it as the "co-dependency = socializing", ala EQ1.

    Co-dependency is not the same as giving better rewards for doing things as a group. In DAoC you could solo all you wanted, but it wasn't going to be as fast as grouping. Grouping is a much harder thing to do, so by design it should yield a greater reward, or people won't do it, and then the feature will vanish for those that like it. It happened in DAoC after they added /level 20 and kill tasks to the game.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,435
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    So it's the Grouping = Socializing argument. I guess that could work, however it's never been seen to extend any level of socializing beyond the guild/clan unit.

    Really? I read it as the "co-dependency = socializing", ala EQ1.

    Co-dependency is not the same as giving better rewards for doing things as a group. In DAoC you could solo all you wanted, but it wasn't going to be as fast as grouping. Grouping is a much harder thing to do, so by design it should yield a greater reward, or people won't do it, and then the feature will vanish for those that like it. It happened in DAoC after they added /level 20 and kill tasks to the game.

    I'm starting to think DAOC might have been a bit of a unique animal in terms of how the group mechanics worked, Mythic seemed to have hit more or less the perfect storm in terms of balance between soloing and grouping, at least in terms of encouraging players to group.

    I didn't play every title back then (who had the time), but the ones I did play had nothing really resembling it.

     

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

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  • TobiasGreyTobiasGrey Member Posts: 166
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    So it's the Grouping = Socializing argument. I guess that could work, however it's never been seen to extend any level of socializing beyond the guild/clan unit.

    Really? I read it as the "co-dependency = socializing", ala EQ1.

    Co-dependency is not the same as giving better rewards for doing things as a group. In DAoC you could solo all you wanted, but it wasn't going to be as fast as grouping. Grouping is a much harder thing to do, so by design it should yield a greater reward, or people won't do it, and then the feature will vanish for those that like it. It happened in DAoC after they added /level 20 and kill tasks to the game.

    I'm starting to think DAOC might have been a bit of a unique animal in terms of how the group mechanics worked, Mythic seemed to have hit more or less the perfect storm in terms of balance between soloing and grouping, at least in terms of encouraging players to group.

    I didn't play every title back then (who had the time), but the ones I did play had nothing really resembling it.

     

    DAoC did indeed do a ton right. The camp bonus system which encouraged groups to travel around? Group bonus xp? The exponential rate of increasing efficiency when a group added players? I wish WoW had copied DAoC's model, maybe then the game would be more enjoyable to play for everyone. But, the Blizzard devs were all raiders from EQ, so they recreated a watered down version of that experience, warts and all.

  • LorkiiLorkii Member Posts: 88
    I can say with all honesty, I made more friends and chatted more with 1 Darkness Falls Princes raid in DAOC, then I have in all games combined since WoW. It s sad but true, only other game that comes close and was FFXI. Really miss the old school ways. Too many console gaming, go go go go go go crowd entered the genre.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    So it's the Grouping = Socializing argument. I guess that could work, however it's never been seen to extend any level of socializing beyond the guild/clan unit.

    Really? I read it as the "co-dependency = socializing", ala EQ1.

    Co-dependency seems to be related but separate from what he is saying. His post and the follow up reply were about group rewards and grouping. I completely agree that co-dependency is a way to get players functioning as a group, albeit a borderline sick one. :) .

    Getting people to group to do tasks and getting people to socialize are two completely different things, the former being one possible way to work toward the other but the argument that grouping = socializing is false, as collaborative efforts and creative expression, especially outside the realm of combat mechanics, have proven to create far more social interaction beyond the insular guild unit.

    The strength of collaborative or creative content lies in its voluntary nature. This is in stark contrast to grouping and co-dependency, where the reason for forming the group is necessity, as they are handicapped or hindered from progressing further without doing so.

    If you read the posts about grouping as a social catalyst, they have one thing in common - combat rewards. It is a consistent theme. Now, if we are going to say that MMOs are now and shall forever be just fantasy level-based games where combat is the only path of progression, then I would agree with their stance wholeheartedly. However, virtual worlds such as UO, ATITD, Socialotron, Puzzle Pirates, EVE Online, Muxlim, and a host of others do exist and do offer content that promotes socializing without forcing people to be tethered to another guy in order to get a reward as the reason to do it.

    Lawmaking, player councils, game-filled taverns, and other features allow players to go places to meet up with others looking to socialize. Player-editable books and paper, bulletin boards, broadcast and chat tools, ladder/tournament tools, playter event tools and social network sites ( ex: BSN and  EQPlayers) also facilitate this both in-game and out.

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • TobiasGreyTobiasGrey Member Posts: 166
    Originally posted by Lorkii
    I can say with all honesty, I made more friends and chatted more with 1 Darkness Falls Princes raid in DAOC, then I have in all games combined since WoW. It s sad but true, only other game that comes close and was FFXI. Really miss the old school ways. Too many console gaming, go go go go go go crowd entered the genre.

    Well in DAoC, raids were an open affair. Anyone could join in the fun. In games like WoW and EQ, they're locked out, linear progression, clique/elistist guild exclusive events.

  • grimalgrimal Member UncommonPosts: 2,935
    Originally posted by Tardcore
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Most socialization occurs during "downtime." Games today just do not have downtime. You instantly heal after every fight and queue up for group content and go. People seldom sit and chat anymore.

    Yeah I think this pretty much nails it. People are just caught up in the game rush. More and more developers adding solocentric, or at least smaller more focused group content has sent the social portion of these games into a tighter and tighter spiral, where any interaction with the majorty of other players isn't needed anymore. Well at least until you need some warm bodies to PUG a dungeon, but most games haved added tools to turn even that experience into a completely non-personal one.

     

    It seems as more companies "streamline" MMOs they start to resemble certain "other" types of games, and the community seems to be mutating with them.

     

    This absolutely.

    I'm just afraid of the day when people forget how to socialize at all in these games; or are we already there?

    P.S. Tard - I very much enjoy reading your posts (completely serious). What MMO are you playing these days?

  • LorkiiLorkii Member Posts: 88
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by Lorkii
    I can say with all honesty, I made more friends and chatted more with 1 Darkness Falls Princes raid in DAOC, then I have in all games combined since WoW. It s sad but true, only other game that comes close and was FFXI. Really miss the old school ways. Too many console gaming, go go go go go go crowd entered the genre.

    Well in DAoC, raids were an open affair. Anyone could join in the fun. In games like WoW and EQ, they're locked out, linear progression, clique/elistist guild exclusive events.

    I agree, but DAOC in general, had way more socializing then those games combined. Just going on what I experienced.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    So it's the Grouping = Socializing argument. I guess that could work, however it's never been seen to extend any level of socializing beyond the guild/clan unit.

    Really? I read it as the "co-dependency = socializing", ala EQ1.

    Co-dependency is not the same as giving better rewards for doing things as a group. In DAoC you could solo all you wanted, but it wasn't going to be as fast as grouping. Grouping is a much harder thing to do, so by design it should yield a greater reward, or people won't do it, and then the feature will vanish for those that like it. It happened in DAoC after they added /level 20 and kill tasks to the game.

    I'm starting to think DAOC might have been a bit of a unique animal in terms of how the group mechanics worked, Mythic seemed to have hit more or less the perfect storm in terms of balance between soloing and grouping, at least in terms of encouraging players to group.

    I didn't play every title back then (who had the time), but the ones I did play had nothing really resembling it.

    DAoC was definitely a unique animal, and I think even Mythic is searching for the answer to what magic they had created there that made the game as much of a social experience as it was. Some that I feel really contributed to the experience:

    • Common mythology - people came into the game with a working knowledge of the lore and were offered a choice of which area of the lore they preferred. Coming out the gate the game had already put people with common interest together. They gave a diverse group of people a common topic to work with and a comon interest to share.
    • Relatively dedicated crafters - you probably remember who your guild's crafters were. Your guild's crafters probably remember the names of the other crafters in their realm, as they traded with them and spent a lot of time at the same forges and crafting stations with them. There were roles beyond just Killer of Things and people in those other roles spent time with similarly interested parties.
    • Strong forum and community support - Team Leads, an active forum community and a site that regularly promoted player creations and player sites let players build their communities around the web. MMOs currently work toward bringing all the info under their official site. The communities that built around sites such as UO Stratics, DAoC Catacombs and Allakhazam are rare these days. I admit, this one is a double edged sword, as the loss of the smaller communities is replaced by better availability and a central location for information for the community as a whole.
     
    There's probably a dozen more aspects that contributed to the atmosphere of DAoC, with "staring at the wall waiting for a bar to fill up so I might as well talk" being really low on the list. :)
     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • GrumpyMel2GrumpyMel2 Member Posts: 1,832
    Originally posted by Calerxes

    There is plenty of interdependency in modern MMO's its just not forced it happens naturally through playing the game. If you choose not to see it thats your problem. 

    Calerxes, I think you have some confusion about the use of the term "interdependancy"....by it's very definition it is "forced"..

    "interdependence" is a relationship in which each member is mutually dependent on the others.

    Dependent means not just that you want some form of assistance from the other individual but that you actualy NEED it.

    Now, you may or may not like the concept of interdependance in a game but by it's very definition it is "forced"...if not then it's something else... perhaps "interaction" would qualify....

    Personaly, I think "interedependance" as a design goal for a game makes for a better game community, atmosphere and player experience (i.e. "fun" ).

    Clearly it is POSSIBLE to play socialy in modern MMO's (or games without those design mechanics) but that does not mean such games are actualy CONDUSCIVE to such play.

    For example, I'm an avid RP-er and was part of quite an active RP guild in LOTRO. While we were able to do stuff....for the most part we fealt that the game and it's mechanics were FIGHTING AGAINST what we were trying to do rather then SUPPORTING it. I'll give you some specific examples of what I'm talking about.

                  - Kinda tough to RP storylines and the actual movement of events in a completely static environment where nothing ever changes and the players actions essentialy have no effect on the environment. By contrast in the MUD's I've played in, the GM's actualy ran storylines/arcs themselves which the players participated in, the players actions made a difference in the outcome of those storylines and actualy had significant lasting effects on the game environment.

                 - Significantly limited in the content on could RP against, when much of that content was tucked away in "private instances" with predefined group sizes that would not fit into your RP group (meaning such content/environments could not be used without excluding members).

              - Difficult to RP in Open World areas and present any real sense of danger/difficulty to the group when most of the open world content was scaled to a single individuals and even doing it with even 2 characters was so laughably easy that you could do it while asleep.

              - Difficult to RP in Open World areas because in doing so we were actualy distrubing the play of other players who were trying to use those areas to level and were not interested in nor understood the concept of RP-ing and did not want it "messing up thier game."  As a RP-er, RPing only really works well when those around you are participating. It's an inclusive activity.... and the last thing you want to do is disturb someone elses play who is not interested in it....so you are essentialy "ghetto-ized" to try to find someplace that is deserted of others in order to pursue your chosen play style without annoying others....because there is no clear understanding that (RP-ing) is a commonly accepted focus of play among the community.

             - No PvP allowed in the Open World (other then timed duels)....so difficult to construct your own storylines that involve conflict. The one place that allows PvMP.... the players there mostly see that as a "competitive PvP environment" so attempting to use that as a backdrop for conflict generates complaints among the other players in that environment...because once again you are disturbing thier play...and they view what you are doing as not an accepted/intended  use of that environment (see point above).

    I could go on...as there are plenty of others...but hopefully I am making my point. Yes, we could RP (and socialize) in that game (LOTRO) but functionaly we were left with little better mechanisms then we could have gotten out of a chat room. In fact in many ways less.....since at least in a chat room you aren't disturbing other peoples use of that environment..... and LOTRO was actualy supposed to be one of the most heavly RP oriented modern MMO's released.

    Yes you could do it....and yes you could socialize...but it was largely IN SPITE of the game...and not DUE TO IT. Contrast this to some of the older MUDS where the entire design focus of the game is built around supporting that style of play.

  • GrumpyMel2GrumpyMel2 Member Posts: 1,832
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by Khaeros
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey

    In modern games, there is no harsh world to band people together

     

    If we can band people together in 'games' that have zero game mechanics (like MUSHes, which are mostly just roleplaying frameworks), then I can certainly do it in any MMORPG structure, whether it be themepark or sandbox, old or new, text or DX11.

     

    That's the difference.  I don't need the game to give me a sense of socialization.  We create and invoke that sense out of nothing. 

    When a game is built around anti social mechanics, it draws anti social people to it. That is the community that forms. Your weird philosophy is pretty flawed. I can like working together with people all I want, but if people never group, never respond to chat, and never interact with you, there's jack shit you can do about it.

    If a game doesn't encourage community and socializing, a social community WILL NOT develop, no matter how much you want it to.

     

    Khaeros has already stated that he facilitates the making of a community he doesn't need the game to encourage him to socialise he goes out there and makes it happen. There seems to be a crowd of old time gamers who expect the game to dictate to the populous what to do while others go out and make it happen regardless of mechanics, I find RP servers are the best places for this.

    I think that many of us "old time gamers" expect that the game has a specific design focus so that it encourages a player community with a specific and somewhat like minded set of expectations on what that game environment is about, so that people have an easier time finding individuals with that style of play interest and there are fewer conflicts involved when using that environment for clashing styles of play. We also expect the game will have mechanics that support that style of play. It's the difference between something that is labled as simply "Field" and something labled "Softball field".... If I show up at the "Softball field" I can reasonably expect most of the others there are going to be interested in playing softball...not football or golf. No one else there will have justifiable cause for people using the field to play softaball instead of football or golf..... and the field will likely have a diamond and basepaths laid out...rather then a bunch of holes with flags sticking out of them.

    I think this is true of modern MMO's as well.....but the design focus does not appear to include most of the forms of socialization that many of us "old time gamers" recognize, enjoy and are interested in. It seems mostly focused on progression, solo-play and instanced based RAIDING of static PVE Dungeons. That's certainly fine if your interested in that sort of thing. I may even, once in a blue moon, feel like indulging in that myself. However my entertainment time is far too valuable to be wasted on products that aren't really designed to support the type of play I enjoy....and communities that by-in-large are not welcoming of it, nor really even understand it. YMMV.

    Edit: As a consumer, why would anyone want to use a product that was not designed to support your intended use of it. Had a minimal feature set to utilize for that intended use and has quite a number of feature that actively retard that intended use?  I would never buy something like that would you?

    I really think Dev's want to have thier cake and eat it too.....They want to sell a product to people that have incompatible intended uses of that product, and then they can't understand why many folks aren't satisfied with that design. Sorry guys, that's not the way real world product design works. You pick an intended audience, you design a product with features that appeal to that audience and you market and sell to that audience. If you want to widen your audience...you need to design a different product with a different focus and a different set of features. You aren't going to build one vehicle that appeals well to the eco-freindly sub-compact crowd, the muscle car guys and the guys who want a monster off-road vehicle with a large bed to haul stuff.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,628

    People think having 500 facebook "friends" is being social. People think one liners on twitter is being social. People think posting pictures of their breakfast is being social. Making insta group action mmos is only part of the problem. We are living in an age of fucked up interaction all around. We watch reality tv shows where people fight and cry over nothing, then log onto facebook to see of anyone commented on our youtube link. Everybody wants to be heard but nobody has anything worth listening to.

  • DewmDewm Member UncommonPosts: 1,337
    Originally posted by Foomerang

    People think having 500 facebook "friends" is being social. People think one liners on twitter is being social. People think posting pictures of their breakfast is being social. Making insta group action mmos is only part of the problem. We are living in an age of fucked up interaction all around. We watch reality tv shows where people fight and cry over nothing, then log onto facebook to see of anyone commented on our youtube link. Everybody wants to be heard but nobody has anything worth listening to.

    true story.

    Please check out my channel. I do gaming reviews, gaming related reviews & lets plays. Thanks!
    https://www.youtube.com/user/BettyofDewm/videos

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432


    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky Most socialization occurs during "downtime." Games today just do not have downtime. You instantly heal after every fight and queue up for group content and go. People seldom sit and chat anymore.
    How do you explain UO?

    I can't. Never played UO. I take it this was an exception? Did you instantly heal after fights and queue up for group content and go? Were there LFD and LFR tools available, or something similar? I truly have no idea what UO was like. It was heavily PvP based and I never was interested in that aspect so never gave it a shot.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


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