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I didn't expect this....
DKLond
Member RarePosts: 2,273
Be warned - this is a post that compares GW2 to WoW - and it's made by someone who is not ashamed of still liking WoW.
Believe it or not, I'm playing WoW again. Didn't intend to - I just wanted to check out the latest patch with the new talent system. I stopped playing right before WotLK - and have checked it very briefly a couple of times since then. But for the first time, I'm enjoying myself beyond just a quick check.
As for GW2, I will give it points for trying new things - and I concede that their take on exploration is fantastic for an MMO (can't compare to a good singleplayer RPG, though) - and I really like a few of the things they've added.
I like the scaling system - as it makes all content somewhat relevant at all levels. That said, it's a bit simplistic and sort of a cop-out way of doing it. It mostly serves to point out that the game would probably have made more sense completely without levels. It's like they were confused about wanting a game without gating/grind mechanisms - but still wanted to stay closer to a traditional model, fearing the mainstream audience would not accept anything else.
I like the fluidity of combat - even despite the simplistic nature of the arsenal. I know fans believe that other games have a ton of obsolete powers, but that's not my experience. In WoW, almost all available skills/powers serve a very logical and pragmatic purpose. I won't deny that some games, like EQ2, have a bunch of pointless stuff - but even that game still has a vastly superior arsenal overall. But the actual "feel and flow" of GW2 combat is excellent.
The best part of GW2 is that it reminded me of why I normally enjoy playing these games in the first place, and that I'm actually a big fan of power progression and the social requirement that goes into not having everything automated regardless of your personal dedication. Honestly, I really like that other people have the opportunity to be assholes and to annoy me - and that's also why I play on a PvP server in WoW. People SHOULD be able to act in accordance with their nature - because that brings out meaningful social interaction. I like meeting people and I like that it takes something to help others, because it clearly demonstrates that you're a nice person - and not just doing it for extra XP. Social interaction should definitely NOT be forcibly pleasant. It's just such a weak and watered down approach in GW2.
I find that I'm NOT a fan of automatic grouping with no communication required - and I'm NOT a fan of having 95% of PvE be about spamming two abilities without worrying about my role in the encounter.
I'm NOT a fan of having a limited arsenal and having it be almost fully available at level 30. I love having toys to look forward to, and I love the complexity of a ton of meaningful skills and abilities to choose from.
Funny thing is that the levelling process is much more pleasant in WoW these days, and I detect almost no "blatant grind". It's just that there are things to work towards if you want them, but you can gear up rather fast - and you can have a max level character in about a week.
The quests are much better today, as well. Certainly much more engaging than the cyclical repetition of a handful of dynamic events in GW2. I'm enjoying the light-hearted "detective story" in Westfall more than anything I experienced in my personal story in GW2.
Sure, it's still WoW at the core - and it's still a game that can take up a lot of time if you let it, but I find that it's vastly superior to GW2 in almost every single way. It doesn't hurt that it's got an insane amount of content after 8 years of being the most popular MMO 
Still, it's a very old game - and I can't blame anyone for being sick of it. Nothing can last forever - but it's amazing that I can still be so entertained by WoW. I played it intensely for 3 years back with Vanilla and TBC - and I never thought I'd be back in any real way. It says something about the quality of the core design and mechanics - and I think people are being incredibly emotional when they lash out against it - as so many seem to do these days.
I'm even contemplating getting Mists of Pandaria - even if I absolutely hate the idea of having Kung Fu Pandas in my RPG.
Comments
i thought you made a good post but regarding this
the yello describes the WOW Dungeon Finder to me
EQ2 fan sites
I agree that the dungeon finder is a part of this modern problem with instant gratification being the primary entertainment approach.
It's hard to defend it while saying what I did about communication and social interaction. Truth is... it's a balance. I don't know the perfect balance. I mean, we could do away with all kinds of convenience features - and just let people work hard for every last experience point or copper. But we're past that - and WoW certainly added a ton of convenience features even in vanilla.
I honestly don't know how I feel about the dungeon finder - because it's easy to sidestep it if you have friends. It's there for people who don't have friends to play with regularly - and who don't have the time to gather a group.
I think I'm used to it - and I don't think it would be good to go back to not having it. But I think such features need to be implemented with great care - and I think social interaction and communication should be high priority in most parts of MMO design.
i agree with you
i think future features of GW2 will help - like Guild Halls and player housing
especially if players are encouraged to visit other players homes
edit:
it annoys me that WOW has no interest in allowing DFs to use only your local server as an option
Cross Server dungeon finders suck for socialization
EQ2 fan sites
Fanboy here:
I can understand your opinion of the game and why you prefer WoW over GW2. While I don't agree with some of your conclusions about the game's mechanics, I can respect your logic. The only thing I take issue with is ressing players for XP. Seriously, it's annoying when I die to have to run back to the event, armour repair and everything so I just want to spare any other player the hassle too. I have seem a group of 5 ungrouped player wade in res and sheild one other player and the reward for that doesn't really justify the hassle.
Call it XP if you want but to me it's all about feeling like you made a difference in someone else's day. It's a small thing but a good thing.
Other than that, have fun in WoW.
There is NO miracle patch.
95% of what you see in beta won't change by launch.
Hope is not a stategy.
______________________________
"This kind of topic is like one of those little cartoon boxes held up by a stick on a string, with a piece of meat under it. In other words, bait."
Like the OP I did go back to WoW recently because I was away from home and my laptop isn't really ment for gaming but still play WoW well on low settings . The PVP is still a lot of fun but PVE has gone downhill no end especially while leveling .
The problem is two fold easy access to the instanced battlegrounds and dungeons using the finder tools has made the vast world outside of the city a little like the Australian outback . Its there but hardly anyone uses it . You can actually go from 1-60 without seeing another player while questing I did it recently with my mage . ( i wanted to see what the changes were like from cata to the vanilla worlds ) .This lack of players makes leveling a lot easier as well when playing on a pvp server .
I also have done some 5 man dungeons while leveling another character ( a hunter ) they are so easy now its impossible to fail at them . In a way WoW has suited me because I've had the flu and wanted something to take my mind off of it that doesn't require too much thinking to play .
I've still got till the 25 th till my sub runs out soon after I will be back home and back to playing GW2 full time again . WoWs nice to go back to I wont rule it out in the future for a month or two a year .
As for MoP to be honest I hate the idea of the Panderen leaves me cold and I've made up my mind not to buy it untill it has 75 percent off of it or it is offered free in the way they did Cataclysm .
My bets are the OP will enjoy a month or two then get bored and move on to another game .
OP, you gave your own honest assessment and provided actual reasoning for your decisions. That's nice to see. Just wanted to say thanks from someone that's sick of hearing empty "This sucks cause I say so!" posts.
I will never get the argument about the small number of skills meaning the lack of complexity. In WoW, my warrior had something like 40 skills? More? I used about 7 on a regular basis in my rotation. I had another 5-6 that were situational at best, or "panic button" moves. The rest were never used.
GW2: My Mesmer is sword+pistol, and either greatsword or staff depending on my mood (still deciding which works better). I have 5 abilities on my main weapon set, 5 on my off. 1 heal, 3 utility, one epic. Every one of these gets used, and frequently. . I have another half dozen utility skills and a couple epics I can swap to out of combat if I decide a situation needs it. And most of those abilities could be used frequently as well, if I chose. I just don't use them out of personal preference most of of the time.
To me the skill amount feels just about right: I've got all the tools I need to get the job done, a few stiuational/panic attack thingies...and no useless fluff that I'll never use. I also don't get the "I get bored of only having five buttoms to hit" stuff that I hear from some people. (Not you per se, OP). In WoW, most rotations involved 10 or less buttons. Many only had 5-6 in the "core" of the rotation. And you always hit the same ones, more or less in the same pattern. Over and over. There were a very "priority" rotations (Prot warrior comes to mind), but even then it usually felt like I was just hitting the same couple buttons over and over. To me, WoW skill useage felt far more repetitive.
As to the level process...meh. Once you've done the 70 or so quests in Westfall, that's it. And you know where they all are. You have an optimal order you can find to knock them all out in an hour or two. And, coming back to them as a high level player, it's mostly "run here, 1-shot everything, run there." In GW2 I have sent multiple characters through the same zone...and due to the nature of DEs, none have had the exact same experience. I've seen different events on each one.
I will admit part of it to is the thril of exploring. In WoW, we all know where everything is. I could still probably map out every quest chain in Westfall in my head. I've done it all. In GW2, it's new, it's fresh...and I have no idea what's in this cave. So the mystery and fun is still there. WIll it be there when I have 5 level 80s and 100% completion? We'll see.
OP why not play both?
edit: As someone else mentioned, thank you for the mature outlook in the comparison, it's very nice to see.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Interesting reading...
I can agree with almost all of the op points but I have a question. Have you foraged deep in the combinations that you can made in GW2 with the "rasgos" ? (I dont know whats the world in english, they are the talents like).
I surprised myself yesterday in pvp using very nice and devastating combinations with my Necro like the one that make blinds froze.
I guess "rasgos" in GW2 are much deeper than people still have figured and they change the abilities in a big degree.
But, but, but he attacked me when I was low life!
Yes, HE DID, why you cant do the same to him?
Uf that will take me a lot of time...
HERE IS YOUR QUEST!
i had similar experience leveling in WOW, 9 months ago December 2011
while leveling in WOW outdoor content,
I rarely saw anyone due to mix of phasing, players using DFs, game being top heavy
in GW2 im constantly seeing people - thanks to autoscaling
being 80 in GW2 doesnt make the low level zones irrelevant
EQ2 fan sites
"Combo" would be the word we'd use. And they are a lot of fun. They remind me of FFXI's skillchains (renkei) with the punishing timing removed.
And thanks for reminding me about something else that adds complexity to GW2's combat.
Although I don't agree completely with the OP, I think he does make a good a point with this :
'I like the scaling system - as it makes all content somewhat relevant at all levels. That said, it's a bit simplistic and sort of a cop-out way of doing it. It mostly serves to point out that the game would probably have made more sense completely without levels. It's like they were confused about wanting a game without gating/grind mechanisms - but still wanted to stay closer to a traditional model, fearing the mainstream audience would not accept anything else.'
I don't think its a cop-out way of doing it though. Because the way xp and drops work when downscaled its more then just lowering your lvl. But I agree with thinking that they decided to go for a lvl based progression system because the mainstream audience wouldn't accept it otherwise. And a part of the mainstream audience also gets confused now because of it. Thinking that in GW2 it is also just about the lvling to max lvl and then finding that the road ends at lvl80 because there is no 'endgame'. While the whole point of the downscaling is that the devs intended you to enjoy the other areas that you missed during lvling. Something this part of the mainstream audience is simply not interested in. They need a more obvious carrot.
I know . In fact I don't know of any game world thats deader than WoW at the moment . I wish in WoW they would get rid of the finder tools on PVP servers and confine them to PVE ones . I enjoy world PVP and even dont mind being ganked now and again as it adds a feeling of danger to the game . It was the biggest mistake Blizzard ever made in WoW . If people want finder tools and teleporting straight to dungeons , raids and battlegrounds through the finder tools they can always create characters on PVE servers but why destroy PVP ones .
I only played WoW trial (3 times in the past years) and couldn't get into it. I really wanted to like it but it's just not my thing. Fell in love with GW2 the first time I logged in. Have fun in WoW.
Well the OP really likes WoW and said some good things about GW2 also.
Personally you just set up a good combo of events for me. But I will be playing GW2 because it's B2P and I am currently playing it. SWToR will be F2P here soon and I will also be playing that. Vanguard is an awesome game in it's on ways *minus the bugs and that is getting some of my time as well. I have allowed myself one subscription game a month and I will be playing WoW/MoP just to check it out. If I don't like MoP it's back to Rift for my sub based game.
What I'm getting at is just because a new game is out, you don't have to run it into the ground playing it. The OP seemed to like GW2 but prefers WoW and I don't understnad why both can't be played.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
maybe I am just tired of seeing all of the I want a game that is noting like WoW but when a comapny does something different it gets trashed posts
I miss DAoC
I cannot agree with both of the highlighted sections enough. It's not about difficulty at all. It's about instant gratification.
I'm not going back!!!
Imo Cata should have been WoW2. I think they would have about 3 million more players than they do now if it was.
Blizzard streamlined the fun out the game in Cata. After years of playing too much and always needeing to do this or that, I woke up one morning in Cata with nothing to do.
GW2 took out the need to socialize to do arbitary leveling while allowing players to help each other out without having to worry about kill stealing or getting no reward othe than a "thank you/" WoW did the same thing by making the majority of the game strickly soloable. In WoW 1-80 can be done without ever grouping with more than a single person other person, and the content that requires group can be auto poped. In GW2, everything is done in a group setting. GW2's approach is better IMO.
Unlike WoW though, Dungeons require you to find a group manually. This is better IMO since it structures were social interaction is necessary, in content designed to be more structured.
IMO, the only thing that WoW has above every game released since its inception, is years of content development and refinement. Give ANET a year to refine the content and you'll see more group oriented stuff coming out.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
i think he talks about traits - minor abilities(every 5 points) and major abilities (every10 points), well thats very important and really makes a huge difference on GW2, the other thing its the non standing combat system on GW2 , or you get smashed in secs, in other games thats doesn't matter as you only need gear and follow the pattern instructions and click on some skills (macros)
I'm just interested why this review is posted in Guild Wars 2 forum, not WoW forum.
It can be just as equally a review of WoW as for GW2.
I get a kick how so many people have "almost all the skills" unlocked by level 30, but there is no way they have all the elites unlocked, and if they have more than 2 elites unlocked than they are missing well over half of the slot skills. They don't even have a chance a reading what the greater elite skills are in the game yet. They haven't progressed the trait system at all and probably don't know anything about changing trait abilities. Everybody wants to be a critic though.
Here is a positive for you though. MoP is really looking like it's one of the least anticipated expansions ever. Nobody talks about it, nobody raves about it's greatness or it's weakness. Nobody cares. And to the previous poster who commented on why it's not in a WoW thread. Would anyone even read it if it was put in the WoW forums?
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
Well-written post, even though I disagree on almost every point.
Particularly re. DEs - I've gone through the same zone with the same character at different times and had quite different DE experiences. There's often something new; not always, some things are the same, sure, but often some things are different. Particularly if you hang around a bit and follow a chain unfolding, it can be different at different times depending on whether other DEs elsewhere have failed or succeeded.
So the "texture" of the world definitely feels dynamic rather than static (i.e. quest hub, hoovering quests up via the most efficient "path").
maybe cause after we play at least 100 hours GW2 , and try to go to WoW it feels like we are playing crappy xiting game! i understand you m8.
No, it is about regular Blizzard stubborness. They need to merge servers but since they said that is a sign of a failing game in the past they try anything to avoid that. Merging the servers and a good LFG tool would have worked better and still kept th social aspect of the game.
i liked reading ur post. maybe im wrong but while readign it i always felt like you are excusing yourself for liking WoW. there is absolutely no need for that. i love WoW and i played it since 2007 with some breaks (few months) and i still like it alot because it still is the best MMORPG out there u can buy for money and no other game managed to change that sofar (god knows many many tried).
the problem why many ppl get sick with it after years its because they need a CHANGE and they play it night and day for months nonstop.. if u do that u get sick of ANY game..ive been there!
Play some WoW..play some f2p game maybe (i love to play world of tanks..such a great game to play for a few hours) then maybe play some GW2 or whatever u want..i play many single player games to mix it up.
i also quite agree to some of your points. just dont care about ppl hating wow..