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Originally posted by TobiasGrey Originally posted by Aerowyn Originally posted by gbooster A reward system / incentives to keep playing. Most people want to feel like they are progressing their character. The game is really lackign in that area.
how so? it has more rewards/incentives than any other MMO out at release and actually more than many have now..
Yeah no, thats total BS. GW2 is half baked in that department. That's why its RvR is lacking. It has no yet implemented as many progression systems as the game it copied, DAoC. One there are realm ranks, relics, and a Darkness Falls style dungeon, then we'll talk.
I agree,they should of had a Darkness Falls type dungeon from the very start,imagine that.As for the comment quoted,i had to laugh at that myself.
Originally posted by Sylvarii Originally posted by TobiasGrey Originally posted by Aerowyn Originally posted by gbooster A reward system / incentives to keep playing. Most people want to feel like they are progressing their character. The game is really lackign in that area.
Funny because a game could have 100 differn't types of rewards/achievements/incentives yet if someone feels those aren't important to them they all of a sudden aren't there.. saying that GW2 has tons of stuff all around to strive for.. maybe not enough in a single department for some people but overall has a ton of stuff.. not stuff everyone wants or will feel is worth going for but that doesn't change the fact there is a lot of stuff to acomplish for a just released MMO.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
SImple enought, a good amount of people that want to pay a monthly subscription.
I'm kind of shocked there's no Darkness Falls. I think it must be because GW2 is going for a very... PvP and PvE should never cross over feel... But they copied almost everything from DAoC, but left out one of the features that people remember the most about DAoC. Boggles the mind.
I'll tell you what doesn't make a good endgame. Making the "best" items such a ridiculous grind that there is no way on earth you'd complete it without using the cash shop to purchase gold. Here's a quick run down of what you'll need for a legendary weapon:
1 million Karma
100% map completion.
500 WvWvW Badges (good luck, takes 3 hours to get in)
400 skill in 2 specific professions.
300 skill points.
30+ of a single explorable dungeon completion.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the best items being difficult to obtain. Theres a difference between difficult, and grinding 2 shot mobs for months on end to get the gold / karma needed though. Given the option between a raid heavy endgame, and one like this, I'll take the raids thanks.
There is one person close to getting the legendary. He ran out of gold however. He spent roughly 2,000 USD in the cash shop to buy gold / boosts.
Originally posted by ShakyMo I could see arenanets take on darkness falls coming with an expansion. They will have more competition for rvr type pvp then with planetside2 and TESO.
We can hope. More companies need to be like Anet... they need to look at what made the Golden Age MMOs so great and start bringing back the ideas. The MMO noobies that have been around since WoW will see them as new features, and us Vets will see a return of the mechanics that made those old games our favorites.
With TESO... man they really could have something special if they got rid of all the quest grinding and instance nonsense. The directors spoke of how important public dungeons are, and they're right. But that importance is lost as soon as you put phasing and instancing in. Public dungeons cannot coexist with heavily instanced ones.
Is it ok to have no good definition for that? Or just that endgame means its the end of the game for me?Like I'm bored with it now and want to move on etc, it is the end of the game for me
The problem I have with 'endgame' ,is that any activity that is only there for max lvl toons in a MMO (or any activity whatsoever), is just another feature for me. And imo no game has to be designed around any specific feature. It is no guarantee for a fun game I think.
I see myself as lucky in that I have a very broad taste in games and have no set of requirements for a MMO. I do have my preferences for certain features if they happen to be included in a MMO, but I don't demand those features to be included (except when I think that the ip requires it like with SWTOR and spacecombat). I'm happy to get surprised by innovative devs, but at the same time I like to see good implementations of excisting features too.
Wasn't that underground dungeon with traps and the chest in the middle in the Eternal Battlegrounds their version of DF?
Originally posted by Worfi Originally posted by Kuinn Originally posted by Worfi You dn't need to do anything. That's the point. You just have more choices to do. Let us see how GW2 offers end game: - end game starts from level 1 - that can everyone say No - explore all maps, vistas, skill points, hearts - thats in every game No - run alts, do all storys, all events, all crafting professions - thats in every game No - you have dungeons in two mode - thats in every game Yes - you can farm stones for epic (and in this game you have actually are encurage not to finish dungeon but to farm just first boss) - seen Miss Only difference i saw is that you have less content here and you dont pay monthly fee. You grind repetitive hearts, all the same de, and other games just give you better rewards for your time and offer you all the same us here while you level but on last level they unlock arenas, rated BG, raids, heroic mode dungeons, challenges and here you don't unlock anything... No
1 win / 4 losses / 1 no contest!
Than you didn't play other games or just delude yourself... yada yada
I've played most 3xA themepark mmorpgs ever released in western market. My answers is based on those experiences. I suggest taking a deep look into a mirror if you're going to talk about delusions.
Originally posted by MMOwanderer Originally posted by ShakyMo I could see arenanets take on darkness falls coming with an expansion. They will have more competition for rvr type pvp then with planetside2 and TESO.
No, it's more their version of an RvR dungeon Mythic added sometime in 2005, I forget what its called... passage of conflict I believe.
Darkness Falls is primarily a PvE zone, only available to the realm who has the most keeps under control (after New Frontiers, the most towers under control). It's where a lot of the best money and gear came from so people were pretty fierce about controling it.
Here's how it worked.
Darkness Falls was a massive MASSIVE dungeon with about a dozen floors to it (think levels of hell) the deeper you went the harder the mobs. Each realm had their own side, and they met at the crossroads in the middle of the 9th level. The raid mobs were all under level 9.
So you have realms A B and C.
Realm A has the most keeps and thus controls Darkness Falls. Everyone from level 15 to level 50 is in their getting loot and killing things.
Suddenly, Realm B takes control of the dungeon. No more people from Realm A can enter Darkness Falls, but the people already inside it aren't booted out.
People from Realm B start to swarm the dungeon and form a huge group to "purge" all the Realm A peopel. They fight through the 9 levels, get to the crossroads, and work their way to Realm A's side, killing everyone they can. These battles were intense as Realm A would slowly lose numbers they couldn't replenish, while Realm B would just keep pushing.
Occasionally Realm A would form a warband and fight to Realm B's side and prevent the other realm from pushing out of their own entrance.
Some players would just log off as soon as the dungeon switched sides and play on an alt. Hours and hours later, they'd log back in when all the fighting has died down and start ganking enemy players who had been lulled into a false sense of security. A witch hunt would start with everyone running around trying to find the guy as he hid throughout the dungeon.
This is why people loved Darkness Falls, and GW2 desperately needs their own version of it.
for me these are enough ^^
Originally posted by loulaki for me these are enough ^^
Wow, thats a pretty awful list. Really reaching in some areas...
"Find and use a vial of black dye.
Find a vial of black dye and give it to a friend"
Participate in World versus World
Help your world win in WvW"
Streching much? They should have cut out the BS and just made a shorter list.
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour Originally posted by Cakeisyummeh Originally posted by halflife25 For me personally perfect end game would be player generated content. Give players some tools so that they can make their own content.
That'd kill lore a little.
Fun is more important than lore and besides the lore can be adjusted to fit the new systems.
and how would this so called new system work? I dont even want to imagine the bugs and glitches and possible hacks.
Originally posted by Epic1oots Originally posted by TwoThreeFour Originally posted by Cakeisyummeh Originally posted by halflife25 For me personally perfect end game would be player generated content. Give players some tools so that they can make their own content.
Specified player development area(s) / list of player made instances to hot join. If there are bugs/glitches, you just port out.
Originally posted by halflife25 Originally posted by Cakeisyummeh Originally posted by halflife25 For me personally perfect end game would be player generated content. Give players some tools so that they can make their own content.
In some cases, I agree that player made content sometimes outshines what the devs put together. In most cases, though, there is a reason players are NOT developers. Too many times I have seen the results of the "Wouldn't this be cool?" mindset.
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Creslin321 I've seen a lot of posts complaining that GW2 has no end-game recently. But, to be honest, I really don't see how the end-game in GW2 is any worse than that in WoW. However this could just be due to my inexperience with the end game in WoW, or my specific preferences...after all, the end game to WoW never appealed to me, so I never experienced it. So for those who think GW2 has a poor end game, could you please describe to me what you feel a good end game would be? Maybe an example game? I'm not saying this to be snide, I just honestly don't understand why people are complaining about this, and I want to understand.
I haven't experienced GW2's endgame, so my reply isn't in opposition to the game, only to express what I feel is a good endgame.
The number one thing, and is interwoven in all my suggestions is PROGRESSION. I must always be able to further gain power on my character.
I think every MMORPG must have several types of endgames, because any 1 type gets boring, so having several allows people to mix them up, furthering the longetivity of the game. I'll give a list, and then example games.
1. Realm versus Realm (3 faction PvP) with Real Ranks
3. Small Group Dungeons
4. Alternate Advancement
5. Player Generated Content
Okay, so now on to some explanations and examples.
1. DAoC was my first MMO, and it's suprising how much they got right, while later games failed. RvR was one such feature, a 3 faction warfare in the frontiers, which didn't have a player cap and wasn't zoned. But having RvR wasn't good all by itself, it needed Real Ranks, which it had. When you earned enough Real Points, your gained a Real Rank, which gave you a point to spend on Real Abilities, which made your character stronger, or gave him extra abilities, depending on your choice.
2. Raiding wasn't always about gear progression. DAoC had raiding, but the purpose of it was to earn Master Levels, which granted extra powerful abilities. Master Levels were earned only after hitting the max level cap. To those who like gear progression, which is another way to grow your character post level cap, WoW is a good example.
3. Not everyone likes raiding, but may like grouping. Max level dungeons, much the same way as raids, gives those players a way to advance their character through dungeon progression. Same idea as raiding, except on a group sized scale.
4. EQ2 had an awesome alternative advancement system. It was an alternative way to make your character stronger, and gave you something extra to strive for during and after the leveling process. DAoC also added a form of alternative advancement through Real Ranks, Master Levels, and Champion Levels, all of which gave you something to strive for after max level. People played DAoC for years before finally maxing their characters out AFTER they hit max level.
5. SWG is a good example of player generated content. The ability to have player ran cities, ran by a mayor, gave players something to do once they hit max level. The player ran economy, which was really deep, played into this too. Faction pride in that game (Rebels vs. Imperials) lent to encouraging people to PvP for no other reason than that itself, but control of planets aided in that effort.
As far as I know, there isn't any real progression in GW2. During the leveling process, you really don't feel any more powerful than you did starting the game, due to level scaling. Because of the easiness of world PvE, earning skill points to get a wider selection of utility skills doesn't feel like progression either, because you rarely need to use them. In fact, you rarely need to use more than autoattack and your most powerful AOE ability. As for WvW PvP, you don't earn any ranks, nor can you make your character any more powerful than what he was when you first rolled that character. According to many posters in these forums, max level gear (stats-wise) is easy to obtain, so there's not even that for progression. In other words, you have no way of making your character more powerful after hitting level cap, thus no reason than "for fun" to do anything once your character has hit max level.
Since fun diminishes after each repitition of the same activity when that activity does nothing to make your character more powerful, the longevity of the game is much smaller after a player hits max level than say games like WoW and DAoC and their ilk that offers something to strive for that takes a lot of time to achieve.
In summary, players in general like to advance their characters (make them stronger), so when that process ends, so does the fun for many people. When the fun ends, so does the game.
Originally posted by Kuinn Originally posted by Worfi Originally posted by Kuinn Originally posted by Worfi You dn't need to do anything. That's the point. You just have more choices to do. Let us see how GW2 offers end game: - end game starts from level 1 - that can everyone say No - explore all maps, vistas, skill points, hearts - thats in every game No - run alts, do all storys, all events, all crafting professions - thats in every game No - you have dungeons in two mode - thats in every game Yes - you can farm stones for epic (and in this game you have actually are encurage not to finish dungeon but to farm just first boss) - seen Miss Only difference i saw is that you have less content here and you dont pay monthly fee. You grind repetitive hearts, all the same de, and other games just give you better rewards for your time and offer you all the same us here while you level but on last level they unlock arenas, rated BG, raids, heroic mode dungeons, challenges and here you don't unlock anything... No
Than you are just deluded fun boy troll...
I've played most 3xA themepark mmorpgs too (wow, rift, aion, tera, swtor, tsw, sto, war, gw, gw2...), and i have fun in all of them. Some things i liked more, some less. And i enjoyed so much in all of them even some features where missing or bad. I were just sad seeing so many potential wasted in some of them, but hey there is allways hope. But i never delud myself that one is so better than other or killed wow or whatever...
It's quite interesting to see have people defend end game less than month after game realesed. Those who say it lacks a lot (arguably most) of end game features are right. And that is just a fact. Even Anet say they will put more dungeons, de, pvp ranks and gametypes, events, etc. So that is truth. No one who says game lacks end game features is not arguing wheter there will be more of it in next months. They just say how things stand now. Having all that in mind i still can't understand you funboys talking nonsens or repeating Anet marketing stuff... Can't you just play game and enjoy what is in the game and hope you will have the same amount of fun, or more in 6 months or year and for those who say it don't have end game honestly say "sorry if you don't how something to do now, do what is in or check whats new in 6 months ..."
To return on topic... Just put things you see people like in all other MMO's out and than put something your own, unique. Don't do false marketing because people are not stupid. Give them more options what to do and so everybody can find something for himself/herself. For example SWTOR could add ranked pod racing, huttball teams with seasons and rankings, pazzak and more games and gambling in Nar shada casino, specific class dailys, factions who you can join based on dark/light side points etc. Just think outside box but don't forget things people like to do. Because in the end if your game lack only one feature people will say that's all ok but you dont have *****"put whatever you want here".
Originally posted by TobiasGrey Originally posted by MMOwanderer Originally posted by ShakyMo I could see arenanets take on darkness falls coming with an expansion. They will have more competition for rvr type pvp then with planetside2 and TESO.
Sounds beyond amazing.
Many other MMOs in the past have done with without bugs and glitches... are you really so blinded by the small scope of WoW clones of the last 8 years that you can't imagine a world with player content? Let me guess, you can't imagine a game without instances either?
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour Originally posted by TobiasGrey Originally posted by MMOwanderer Originally posted by ShakyMo I could see arenanets take on darkness falls coming with an expansion. They will have more competition for rvr type pvp then with planetside2 and TESO.
No kidding. I never played DAOC but i did know that DF was an underground dungeon so assumed that GW2's one was inspired by it.
Thanks for the info Tobias. Now i really would love to see something like that in WVW.
Originally posted by MMOwanderer Originally posted by TwoThreeFour Originally posted by TobiasGrey Originally posted by MMOwanderer Originally posted by ShakyMo I could see arenanets take on darkness falls coming with an expansion. They will have more competition for rvr type pvp then with planetside2 and TESO.
No problem. I think everyone would like to see it. I'm considering sending an email to Anet just trying to figure out if its on the planning sheet or if they're totally unaware of it. (I can't imagine they are, I do not doubt they have a few former DAoC players/programmers there, as their RvR is almost a carbon copy of DAoC's).
Also, just a point of clarification, the entrance to Darkness Falls was within the PvE sections of each Realm.
Good End Game would be a good assortment of mini-games: Collections...Housing (decorating)...player run economy (player run stores with vendors ala SWG) - anything as an option to combat. Wow has finally figured this out by adding in the Pet Combat system for MOP and while you may think it's funny or lame - it WILL be very popular.
SWG had one of the best end games ever - I spend hours and hours just on the Beast master profession - collecting materials and growing beasts in incubators...selling stuff in my shop which was great because players had to visit your shop to buy things which promoted community. Had that game been run right and not ruined by the idiots in charge - it would have been as big as Wow if not bigger.
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.