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Please describe what makes a good end game

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  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by MMOwanderer
    Originally posted by Cakeisyummeh Originally posted by halflife25 For me personally perfect end game would be player generated content. Give players some tools so that they can make their own content.
    That'd kill lore a little.
    How so?

    player driven content


    Do you drive the 'content', or does the 'content' drive you?

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by gbooster

    I think ANet will start realising this too as they sift through the feedback and are able to see how many people keep playing after a month or so. They are really excellent at listening to the player base.

    I think Anet remembers the same crowd leaving GW1, for the same reasons, in even shorter time.  "What? Only 20 levels! Omg!" (the classic 'failed to read the box' reaction).

    It's an experimental thing; can we get players to accept something different from what they're used to?

    Gamers are a pretty reactionary bunch; that answer's generally "no".  And I don't think it was terribly unpredictable.

    I remember 2005.  The first reaction, for tens of thousands of players, was "WoW had X. Why can't this game have X too?"

    Sure enough, 2012.  Same reaction.

    Every game premeire since 2004, in fact.  "Why can't we make this game just like WoW?"

    Remember SWTOR, in January? "Why can't we have a new game that isn't just like WoW?"

    Remember Rift? "Why can't we have a new game that isn't just like WoW?"

    very true and I just don't want another one of those types games they are already flooding the market with them and obviously that sort of "endgame" isn't working all that well as many haven't been as successful as people hoped for. Many for years have been asking for something new and now we get something new the complaint is it's not like the rest...

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,275Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Aerowyn

    what is the purpose of getting highest rank of anything in any game? fame fortune?

    You'd be amazed just how many Raiders are entirely driven by their Ranking (on a server, in the country, in the world) on a specific web site.

    Egoboo works for a while as a motivator, yep.

    oh I know it well as I used to be like that.. but once I got that ranking it was like okay whoop whoop now what.. lets wait 6 more months and they add another set of rankings.. i did this for years but it gets to a point you gotta say why am I doing this again? I just don't see the drive in that type of play anymore and glad a game came out where I can enjoy most of what it has to offer and not worry about getting "to the top". 

    Once we got our sever first and world ranking, we began competing against the world on an individual level. World ranking in dps, world rankings in healing and tanking. 

     

    Personal progression.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,587Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by gbooster

    I think ANet will start realising this too as they sift through the feedback and are able to see how many people keep playing after a month or so. They are really excellent at listening to the player base.

    I think Anet remembers the same crowd leaving GW1, for the same reasons, in even shorter time.  "What? Only 20 levels! Omg!" (the classic 'failed to read the box' reaction).

    It's an experimental thing; can we get players to accept something different from what they're used to?

    Gamers are a pretty reactionary bunch; that answer's generally "no".  And I don't think it was terribly unpredictable.

    I remember 2005.  The first reaction, for tens of thousands of players, was "WoW had X. Why can't this game have X too?"

    Sure enough, 2012.  Same reaction.

    Every game premeire since 2004, in fact.  "Why can't we make this game just like WoW?"

    Remember SWTOR, in January? "Why can't we have a new game that isn't just like WoW?"

    Remember Rift? "Why can't we have a new game that isn't just like WoW?"

    When developers deliver what players ask for, they get ripped.  When developers try to be different, they get ripped.

    Welcome to mmorpg.com.

    You have summed up the problem with the whole dam industry.

    Developers need to adopt new rules. And the 1st one is DO SOME RESEARCH! find out, not what players say they want, but what will they do? From there find the balance between work and reward. Find that line wher you can keep a player invested in heis character and also feel like they have actually earned what they have.

    Rule no. 2.  For god sake, DO NOT under any circumstances believe the players when they tell you what they want. Because if you give it to them, you've slit your own throat.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by bcbully

    Once we got our sever first and world ranking, we began competing against the world on an individual level. World ranking in dps, world rankings in healing and tanking. 

    Personal progression.

    We did too.  Always a kewl new trophy at the end of the treadmill.

    That was at the end of BC, when the raiding guilds raided each other for quality players (easier than carrying a newb through atunements); too much work replacing the defectors and retirees, eventually.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • YakkinYakkin irvine, CAPosts: 919Member

    The best endgame is one that fits into that specifc game's design philosophy, not what is considered "popular" or "traditional".

    Least that's what I can understand. How exactly you reach such a thing is beyond me.

  • aries623aries623 Sterling Heights, MIPosts: 28Member
    For me, the perfect end game would be no end game, just an open world I can get lost in and make my own story....
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Enigmatus
    How exactly you reach such a thing is beyond me.

    EQ had an answer.  DaOC had an answer.  UO had (kinda) a third.

    The mmo universe hasn't really advanced all that much since.

    Invent an alternative that works as well as raiding or PvP, and you'll likely make a fortune.  But an awful lot of people have been pondering that problem for a very long time.  The best we've got is a vast variety of Partial Answers, and the two main ones.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • soulmirrorsoulmirror Jax, FLPosts: 112Member
    That there is not an end game....  Guild / player run events, exploration that does not take days to complete, crafting that does not take days to master, thriving auction house, Actual Guild wars, scalable content for "boss mobs", guild houses / cities, crafting is required to unlock certain zones, server / world 1st completed or best where you get something for attaining or keeping a title.  The list goes on, the more you get away from MMO's on rails or short times to max level, the better off the game is in the long run.
  • GruugGruug Chillicothe, ILPosts: 1,311Member Uncommon

    Good "end game" is no end game. Think about it!

     

     

    Let's party like it is 1863!

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,275Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by bcbully

    Once we got our sever first and world ranking, we began competing against the world on an individual level. World ranking in dps, world rankings in healing and tanking. 

    Personal progression.

    We did too.  Always a kewl new trophy at the end of the treadmill.

    That was at the end of BC, when the raiding guilds raided each other for quality players (easier than carrying a newb through atunements); too much work replacing the defectors and retirees, eventually.

    The trophy/gear didn't matter at that point, atleast not for us. Pass, pass, pass. It was me the warlock vs  the mages in my guild. We pushed each other to truly incredible levels. 

     

    I went from a newb trying to run from Darn to IF to a top 20 world parsing warlock. Top 10 tanks and healers came along. The hard work paid off.

  • JimmydeanJimmydean Ypsilanti, MIPosts: 1,270Member

    I enjoyed raiding in EQ because you did it to see more content, not to "get all the best gear available". 

    You ran WToV so that you could go to NToV and experience the big named dragons. It was a great feeling to finally step into NToV and learn the encounters.

    You raided Ssra temple to obtain key items for the boss of that zone, as well as the next zone Vex Thal. You obtained gear during these raids to help you survive the next tier of content.

     

    WoW is similar, but it did one thing very wrong.  WoW is gated by content patches.  No matter how many times you run Dragon Soul, you won't progress further until WoW releases something new. 

    And in GW2s end game, if you don't PVP... well GW2 doesn't have PVE endgame. Farming for legendary / exotic weapons is all about spending real cash to buy gold in the store. Literally need 500+ gold to obtain a legendary. The only one close atm purchased 500k gems to turn into xp/craft/karma boosts and gold.

  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member
    Originally posted by Reklaw
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    I've seen a lot of posts complaining that GW2 has no end-game recently.  But, to be honest, I really don't see how the end-game in GW2 is any worse than that in WoW.  However this could just be due to my inexperience with the end game in WoW, or my specific preferences...after all, the end game to WoW never appealed to me, so I never experienced it.

    So for those who think GW2 has a poor end game, could you please describe to me what you feel a good end game would be?  Maybe an example game?  I'm not saying this to be snide, I just honestly don't understand why people are complaining about this, and I want to understand.

    Sorry perhaps I should not comment in this topic as I aint playing GW2, but....

    End game for me would be a full player run economy, including item decay so there alway's be demand.

    The so called endgame in today's MMORPG are so incredible limited as it consist mostly out of combat, combat and more combat. Nothing wrong with having combat in a MMORPG as it should definitly be in a MMORPG. But common this genre should be so far beyond just a combat game that it ammeses me to see that most current MMORPG turn into simple multiplayer FPS type games.

    But then rises the question can the niche old school player substain the masses of today, cause due to my own experiance the old school player has the patience to slowly build him/her self up on the economy ladder where the current new gen player will complain a week after release that the ingame economy sucks....

    So hmmmm the question is rather difficult to answer with so many different type of players, because what I asume to be a great end game I am sure many would not like it as the masses still show they go for more combat oriented MMO's. Still glad they have plenty of that but what about the old minority, those of us who truly grew up with this genre from it's beginning? Though not speaking for ALL old school MMORPG players but do feel due to my ingame experiance with ingame friends that there is a minority crowed out there that would like a MMORPG to go far beyond just being a combat online game.

    I disagree.  I think its fine to have a smattering of non-combat activities but IMO, combat should always be 90% of the endgame content.

    Some of the non-combat endgame I like are:

    • Player Housing
    • Exploration based activites like jumping puzzles, hard to reach areas or dynamic areas that change based on the fauna and weather
    • politics and meaningful factions
    • robust guild structures such as Asherons Call Allegiance system which utilyzes patrons and vassals
    To me though a game should include alot of combat centric activities at endgame that are indepth and varied such as:
    • Huge open worlds with hundreds of places to explore with rare and differing bosses/mini-bosses such as castles, keeps, villas, non-linear dungeons, caves, grottos and places you might actually find something nasty.  At the end have the boss drop a key to his treasure chest.
    • Dynamic Asherons Call/Diablo style loot systems
    • multiple paths of progression
    • open ended skill system with the ability to create the style of gameplay that suits the player (balance be damnded)
    • multi layer questing system that takes groups (i.e. plural groups) a while to finish that includes activities such as puzzle solving, jumping, traps and split paths that promote unity and teamwork.
    • good old fashion open ended dungeons that promote teamwork and unity
     
    Now basically I want Asherons Call re-imagined, as it was my first MMO I will always remain highly partial to its system but until such a time as AC is remade in todays generation of MMO's, GW2 is sufficiently engaging with myriads of ways to keep me playing for the forseable future.

    Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

    Playing: GW2
    Waiting on: TESO
    Next Flop: Planetside 2
    Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.

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  • RaysheRayshe London, ONPosts: 1,284Member
    Challenge, thats all i really need is to have a actual Challenge. i havent played GW2 so i cannot comment on its endgame however alot of MMO's are cakewalks at the end.

    Because i can.
    I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
    Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  • HazelleHazelle Brampton, ONPosts: 760Member

    Meaningful player ownership within the game world.

    Meaningful player control over the game world.

    Without players having a stake in the game world they are just tourists and will act like tourists.

  • AoriAori Carbondale, ILPosts: 1,886Member Uncommon

    Player politics and open pvp are essential for me to a good end game. Scripted content isn't a long term challenge, its what mmo's are trending towards. If I wanted that i'd stick to single player games.

    The reason I got into MMO's was PvP.. now we have the all bark crowd and we can't thrust a sword down their throats to stop their yelping.

  • CoatedCoated Woodside, CAPosts: 339Member Uncommon

    Well I can tell you one thing, GW2 should not be on anyones list of 'good end game'.

     The biggest thing out of everything that should be placed at the front lines is 'Community'. GW2 has no community. I do quests mindlessly, I do events mindlessly and I do dungeons/pvp/raids mindlessly. Theres just no incentive to form bonds with players. The game pushes for anonimity and that is where it hurts. It's not just GW2's fault. Every MMO (including WOW) has devolved into this mindless idiocy. Even non MMORPG's are dropping 'community' and trying to WOW (no pun) the masses with this concept of instant gratification at the cost of socialization.

    Where the hell is the community in these games? I might as well be playing a single player RPG.

  • stratasaurusstratasaurus Seattle, WAPosts: 220Member
    Originally posted by halflife25
    For me personally perfect end game would be player generated content. Give players some tools so that they can make their own content.

    Hey there is a game coming out for you from what I have read.  Called Neverwinter.  Anyways my problem with GW2 end game is that it comes off as very socialist to me.  Everyone has equal gear regardless of how hard you have worked for it etc etc.  Maybe I'm a dying breed of American but I like my games where you get what you work for.  If I can't do explorer mode dungeons then I don't deserve to have as good of gear as people that can do them.  Oh and not seeing player names of oponent in pvp is just stupid, makes it feel like your not even doing pvp(though that really isn't endgame and is off topic).

  • WootloopsWootloops Melville, NYPosts: 165Member
    Originally posted by stratasaurus
    Oh and not seeing player names of oponent in pvp is just stupid, makes it feel like your not even doing pvp(though that really isn't endgame and is off topic).

    I'd say that's one of the biggest issues with the endgame. In PvP you want to become the best and be known for it, and maintain that title. Except in GW2 no one can even see your name. In all the medieval and fantasy movies and such, everyone is always saying "remember my name". That's the main goal of a lot of their lives: to be known, to have a legacy. But not in GW2.

  • WorfiWorfi RijekaPosts: 16Member


    Originally posted by Creslin321 So for those who think GW2 has a poor end game, could you please describe to me what you feel a good end game would be?  
    Hmmm, for start not saying end game starts from level 1... That would be success for Anet
  • saurus123saurus123 nonePosts: 570Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Coated

    Well I can tell you one thing, GW2 should not be on anyones list of 'good end game'.

     The biggest thing out of everything that should be placed at the front lines is 'Community'. GW2 has no community. I do quests mindlessly, I do events mindlessly and I do dungeons/pvp/raids mindlessly. Theres just no incentive to form bonds with players. The game pushes for anonimity and that is where it hurts. It's not just GW2's fault. Every MMO (including WOW) has devolved into this mindless idiocy. Even non MMORPG's are dropping 'community' and trying to WOW (no pun) the masses with this concept of instant gratification at the cost of socialization.

    Where the hell is the community in these games? I might as well be playing a single player RPG.

    strange quite opposite in my case

     

    maybe you should look for a guild not for zerg lemmings

  • UtukuMoonUtukuMoon ParisPosts: 1,066Member
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by gbooster

    A reward system / incentives to keep playing. Most people want to feel like they are progressing their character. The game is really lackign in that area.

    how so? it has more rewards/incentives than any other MMO out at release and actually more than many have now.. just because your idea of rewards/incentives may only mean making you more powerful that doesn't discount GW2 has plenty of rewards and incentives to continue playing. Progression isn't only power..

    One thing I do hope they add though is some sort of progression for weapon skills or a system that is like the utitlity skill system and you can select differn't weapon skills for the same weapon.

    Nope it doesn't,up against a game like Vanguard at release,GW2 is lacking in incentives and content.Saying it has more incetives/rewards than any other MMO at release is just over zealous fan talk.

  • MosesZDMosesZD Kirkwood, MOPosts: 1,383Member
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    I've seen a lot of posts complaining that GW2 has no end-game recently.  But, to be honest, I really don't see how the end-game in GW2 is any worse than that in WoW.  However this could just be due to my inexperience with the end game in WoW, or my specific preferences...after all, the end game to WoW never appealed to me, so I never experienced it.

    So for those who think GW2 has a poor end game, could you please describe to me what you feel a good end game would be?  Maybe an example game?  I'm not saying this to be snide, I just honestly don't understand why people are complaining about this, and I want to understand.

     

    Day 1:  Get up.  Run daily.  You know, the same daily you've done nine months in a row now.

    Day 2: Get up. Run daily. You know, the same daily you've done nine months in a row now.

    Day 3: Get up. Run daily. You know, the same daily you've done nine months in a row now.

    Day 4: Get up. Run daily. You know, the same daily you've done nine months in a row now.

    Day 5: Get up. Run daily. You know, the same daily you've done nine months in a row now.

    Day 6: Get up. Run daily. You know, the same daily you've done nine months in a row now.

    Day 7: Get up. Run daily. You know, the same daily you've done nine months in a row now.    Raid, the same raid you've been running for two months now.   Don't get your drop.   Pretend that it matters and get ready to chase that carrot next week and yell at anyone who tells you it's just a pointless cycle.

     

    Lather, rinse, repeat...      Watch your MMO company laugh all the way to the bank as you and tens of thousands, if not millions, of others don't figure out how you're being taken...

     

  • MosesZDMosesZD Kirkwood, MOPosts: 1,383Member
    Originally posted by Sylvarii
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by gbooster

    A reward system / incentives to keep playing. Most people want to feel like they are progressing their character. The game is really lackign in that area.

    how so? it has more rewards/incentives than any other MMO out at release and actually more than many have now.. just because your idea of rewards/incentives may only mean making you more powerful that doesn't discount GW2 has plenty of rewards and incentives to continue playing. Progression isn't only power..

    One thing I do hope they add though is some sort of progression for weapon skills or a system that is like the utitlity skill system and you can select differn't weapon skills for the same weapon.

    Nope it doesn't,up against a game like Vanguard at release,GW2 is lacking in incentives and content.Saying it has more incetives/rewards than any other MMO at release is just over zealous fan talk.

     

    It's always boring when someone comes in pretends failure/niche MMO X, Y or Z was the pinnacle.    If it was, we'd have all played it.  But, in reality, it wasn't.   It was a pile of crap and. at best, a niche game.

     

    Especially Vanguard which burned and died its first month.    Friggin' Toon Town Online did better.

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