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Please describe what makes a good end game

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  • GoldenArrowGoldenArrow TurkuPosts: 1,187Member Uncommon

    For me it's

    A) Reason to log-in every day and the real incentive to do so.

    B) Endless progression on my main character.

    C) Good community.

    D) Different options for endgame that are all equally valid and fill the B)

    E) All of the above needs to be _fun_

    If my character is "perfect" and can't progress any further in any possible way (i.e brick wall) my incentive to play the game drops enormously. In this case my only incentive is to get ready for upcoming content.

    In short: Endless progression for my main character, different options for endgame and fun.

    Everything else is negotiable.

     

    Games that have fulfilled by standards are pretty much.

    FFXI / Eve Online / Rift / Shattered Galaxy (MMORTS/RPG) / Atlantica Online (ruined by insane cashshop)

    Also TSW, but I'm really struggling with the fun part on it. Not to mention the progression cap is rather fast to achieve.

  • RizelStarRizelStar Raleigh, NCPosts: 2,773Member
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins

    With regard to GW2 endgame.  I'd like to see:

     

    1) more interesting WvWvW

    2) DE's that take over a zone and can move into another zone - just let the DE's overrun a zone sometimes and motivate the players to push them back

    3) More interesting/challenging world bosses

    4) Fun instances - not a grind for tokens

    Yea these would be good additions.

    I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

    I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

    P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

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  • rodingorodingo Posts: 2,346Member Uncommon
    For me it's simply PvP.  It was like that for me in Neocron (actually that was not just endgame), SWG, Planetside (actually all PvP),WoW, AoC, LoTRO, WAR, SWTOR, and GW2.  I tried raiding a few times, but after leveling through pve content I couldn't stomach more of it in the form of a raid.  Doing pve to get gear, to do pve, to get gear, to do pve..... just doesn't make a legitimate end game for me.  I wonder how many "high fives" and "good games" the original creator of raids got once devs realized that was the ultimate carrot on the stick.

    "If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  • VyntVynt Glendale, CAPosts: 632Member Uncommon

    I think for GW2's endgame, it would just need a few tweaks.

    I see the GW2 endgame mostly as the WvW.

    Sure you can work on getting exotic armor, doing achievements, going through all the other content, and that is touted as a great thing, but you can do that in all the other games. Most people don't really care to it seems.

    I might go back through other content, but most likely, I'm not going to do it all. Usually the other content I miss I save for an alt, but I do that in all MMOs I play.

    Other MMOs usually have some kind of continued progression at endgame, not all the same. Sometimes it is gear (which GW2 sort of has), others are extra skills from pve, like the AA in EQ, or realm abilities from pvp in daoc. There is usually something to keep people going. I know people will say fun keeps them going, but those other games are fun and have that extra stuff. It is kind of needed to have continued sustained playing, replayability.

     

    The way I see that for GW2 is tweaking the WvW. Add in some points for kills to further customize a character, similar to daoc. That drastically improved the rvr there. Removing a player cap would be huge, but unsure if GW2s can support that. The queues hurt the pvp. There probably wouldn't be queues if people weren't made level 80, but that was their design choice, so have to live with it. Would have liked to see pvp restricted to bunches of levels like the daoc BGs had (with no cap of players). Just a personal preference.

     

  • TobiasGreyTobiasGrey Worcester, MAPosts: 166Member
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    I've seen a lot of posts complaining that GW2 has no end-game recently.  But, to be honest, I really don't see how the end-game in GW2 is any worse than that in WoW.

    End game in GW2 is a LOT better than WoW.

    A good end game is dynamic content. In DAoC this came in the form of the Darkness Falls dungeon, which contained raiding and PvE spots, infused with a bit of PvP, and its frontier, which was always changing because it was entirely player driven.

    GW2 is halfway to DAOC's PvP model. If it can put in realm ranks, a Darkness Falls, better relics, it'll have some of the best end game since DAoC.

     

    Also, DAoC had regular raids, that were entirely optional, non tiered, and done for fun, not as work or progression. The raids were based on dynamic AI, rather than scripted for specific numbers and classes. IT allowed for a lot of different groups to get a lot of different experiences out of the raids. A 30 man dragon raid was totally different from a 150 man dragon raid.

     

    Asheron's Call also had good end game, with its branching monthly updates where the actions of the players changed the shape of the world.

     

    WoW has none of this.

  • laseritlaserit Vancouver, BCPosts: 1,952Member Uncommon

    I would love to see somebody try "live content" have some Gm's control Epic boss's and attack town's and zones and anything else that creativity can come up with. Something that's not scripted but live and would never be the same.

    I remember back to some of the early days in UO, there were some guild's that were heavy into RP and some just liked to be evil. The mayhem and the posse's were great fun.

    "If you make an ass out of yourself, there will always be someone to ride you." - Bruce Lee

  • SylviodroodSylviodrood Moorpark, CAPosts: 7Member
    have people not figured out yet that the end game is WvW and explorable dungeons and to get kool skins. not giants raids...a good 1/2 of the "endgame" can be done at lvl 1. i just dont understnad what the compalint is here. lvl 80 is to just make sure that one gets all the skills and traits. why are the people on this site handicapped
  • TobiasGreyTobiasGrey Worcester, MAPosts: 166Member
    Originally posted by laserit

    I would love to see somebody try "live content" have some Gm's control Epic boss's and attack town's and zones and anything else that creativity can come up with. Something that's not scripted but live and would never be the same.

    I remember back to some of the early days in UO, there were some guild's that were heavy into RP and some just liked to be evil. The mayhem and the posse's were great fun.

    Agreed. This is something Darkfall has been playing around with, but they have too much on their plate to go all the way with this.

     

    Originally posted by Sylviodrood
    have people not figured out yet that the end game is WvW and explorable dungeons and to get kool skins.

    WoW players aren't too keen to figure things out... or do anything other than WoW over and over. If something isn't like WOW, they yell until it becomes WoW. Then the devs wonder why they're losing subscribers...

  • fivorothfivoroth LondonPosts: 3,665Member Uncommon
    What makes a good endgame in a MMORPG? I have no clue. I have never seen any MMO where endgame was done well. Raids were not too shabby the first few times I tried it but after that endgame is just grind to keep you playing/subbed.

    Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  • TigerAeroTigerAero Fort Campbell, KYPosts: 127Member
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    I've seen a lot of posts complaining that GW2 has no end-game recently.  But, to be honest, I really don't see how the end-game in GW2 is any worse than that in WoW.  However this could just be due to my inexperience with the end game in WoW, or my specific preferences...after all, the end game to WoW never appealed to me, so I never experienced it.

    So for those who think GW2 has a poor end game, could you please describe to me what you feel a good end game would be?  Maybe an example game?  I'm not saying this to be snide, I just honestly don't understand why people are complaining about this, and I want to understand.

     

    Once you hit 80 there's nothing other then spvp/wvw to get you to login to that specific character anymore. One benefit to B2P games. You can throw it out/uninstall when you're done...nothing to keep you here, unless you lose your job or other stuff goes on.

  • TobiasGreyTobiasGrey Worcester, MAPosts: 166Member
    Originally posted by TigerAero
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    I've seen a lot of posts complaining that GW2 has no end-game recently.  But, to be honest, I really don't see how the end-game in GW2 is any worse than that in WoW.  However this could just be due to my inexperience with the end game in WoW, or my specific preferences...after all, the end game to WoW never appealed to me, so I never experienced it.

    So for those who think GW2 has a poor end game, could you please describe to me what you feel a good end game would be?  Maybe an example game?  I'm not saying this to be snide, I just honestly don't understand why people are complaining about this, and I want to understand.

     

    Once you hit 80 there's nothing other then spvp/wvw to get you to login to that specific character anymore.

    So there's nothing except a dynamically changing player driven environment to keep you logging in? That sounds a SHIT load better than raids.

  • TigerAeroTigerAero Fort Campbell, KYPosts: 127Member
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by TigerAero
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    I've seen a lot of posts complaining that GW2 has no end-game recently.  But, to be honest, I really don't see how the end-game in GW2 is any worse than that in WoW.  However this could just be due to my inexperience with the end game in WoW, or my specific preferences...after all, the end game to WoW never appealed to me, so I never experienced it.

    So for those who think GW2 has a poor end game, could you please describe to me what you feel a good end game would be?  Maybe an example game?  I'm not saying this to be snide, I just honestly don't understand why people are complaining about this, and I want to understand.

     

    Once you hit 80 there's nothing other then spvp/wvw to get you to login to that specific character anymore.

    So there's nothing except a dynamically changing player driven environment to keep you logging in? That sounds a SHIT load better than raids.

     

    Yep. I love DE's. I can "flutter" from one to another without having to party with a single person. :P

     

    I never said there is no end game...but it's the reason 1/2 of  our guild, Nexus Gaming (an original pre-launch guild), has left the scene.

  • TobiasGreyTobiasGrey Worcester, MAPosts: 166Member
    Originally posted by TigerAero
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by TigerAero
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    I've seen a lot of posts complaining that GW2 has no end-game recently.  But, to be honest, I really don't see how the end-game in GW2 is any worse than that in WoW.  However this could just be due to my inexperience with the end game in WoW, or my specific preferences...after all, the end game to WoW never appealed to me, so I never experienced it.

    So for those who think GW2 has a poor end game, could you please describe to me what you feel a good end game would be?  Maybe an example game?  I'm not saying this to be snide, I just honestly don't understand why people are complaining about this, and I want to understand.

     

    Once you hit 80 there's nothing other then spvp/wvw to get you to login to that specific character anymore.

    So there's nothing except a dynamically changing player driven environment to keep you logging in? That sounds a SHIT load better than raids.

     

    Yep. I love DE's. I can "flutter" from one to another without having to party with a single person. :P

     

    I never said there is no end game...but it's the reason 1/2 of  our guild, Nexus Gaming (an original pre-launch guild), has left the scene.

    I was referring to the RvR, which is kind of the selling point of GW2.

  • SylviodroodSylviodrood Moorpark, CAPosts: 7Member
    Originally posted by TigerAero
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by TigerAero
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    I've seen a lot of posts complaining that GW2 has no end-game recently.  But, to be honest, I really don't see how the end-game in GW2 is any worse than that in WoW.  However this could just be due to my inexperience with the end game in WoW, or my specific preferences...after all, the end game to WoW never appealed to me, so I never experienced it.

    So for those who think GW2 has a poor end game, could you please describe to me what you feel a good end game would be?  Maybe an example game?  I'm not saying this to be snide, I just honestly don't understand why people are complaining about this, and I want to understand.

     

    Once you hit 80 there's nothing other then spvp/wvw to get you to login to that specific character anymore.

    So there's nothing except a dynamically changing player driven environment to keep you logging in? That sounds a SHIT load better than raids.

     

    Yep. I love DE's. I can "flutter" from one to another without having to party with a single person. :P

     

    I never said there is no end game...but it's the reason 1/2 of  our guild, Nexus Gaming (an original pre-launch guild), has left the scene.

    just sounds to me you were on a crappy server.

    post edit. BASED Jade Quarry

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    I would answer if I did not think the OP's question really wasn't a question rather than a statement that GW 2's "endgame" is just fine.
  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by TigerAero
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    I've seen a lot of posts complaining that GW2 has no end-game recently.  But, to be honest, I really don't see how the end-game in GW2 is any worse than that in WoW.  However this could just be due to my inexperience with the end game in WoW, or my specific preferences...after all, the end game to WoW never appealed to me, so I never experienced it.

    So for those who think GW2 has a poor end game, could you please describe to me what you feel a good end game would be?  Maybe an example game?  I'm not saying this to be snide, I just honestly don't understand why people are complaining about this, and I want to understand.

     

    Once you hit 80 there's nothing other then spvp/wvw to get you to login to that specific character anymore.

    So there's nothing except a dynamically changing player driven environment to keep you logging in? That sounds a SHIT load better than raids.

    Dynamically changing player driven environment?? Are we playing the same game?! Or are you actually claiming that flipping control points back and forth qualifies for dynamically changing player driven environment? image

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member
    Originally posted by Yamota
    I would answer if I did not think the OP's question really wasn't a question rather than a statement that GW 2's "endgame" is just fine.

     I do think it's fine, but I honestly want to hear from people who do not think it's fine to understand why they feel this way.

    Not everything on this forum has to be fanboi/hater motivated, shocking I know ;).

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by TigerAero
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    I've seen a lot of posts complaining that GW2 has no end-game recently.  But, to be honest, I really don't see how the end-game in GW2 is any worse than that in WoW.  However this could just be due to my inexperience with the end game in WoW, or my specific preferences...after all, the end game to WoW never appealed to me, so I never experienced it.

    So for those who think GW2 has a poor end game, could you please describe to me what you feel a good end game would be?  Maybe an example game?  I'm not saying this to be snide, I just honestly don't understand why people are complaining about this, and I want to understand.

     

    Once you hit 80 there's nothing other then spvp/wvw to get you to login to that specific character anymore.

    So there's nothing except a dynamically changing player driven environment to keep you logging in? That sounds a SHIT load better than raids.

    Dynamically changing player driven environment?? Are we playing the same game?! Or are you actually claiming that flipping control points back and forth qualifies for dynamically changing player driven environment? image

     He's talking about world versus world.

    There's also guilds claiming keeps and flying their banners, and siege emplacements that can literally be put anywhere on the map to create unique challenges and choke points, but let's just ignore those shall we ;).

    Also...I played Darkfall for some time and TBH, it was basically about just flipping control points (cities) in the end.  Yeah, it happened much less frequently in than in GW2, but it was still basically the same.

    GW2's WvW is actually what I always wanted the sieges in Darkfall to be.  But instead, they were just a bunch of guys hitting buildings with hammers and stealing other dudes' stuff.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • TigerAeroTigerAero Fort Campbell, KYPosts: 127Member
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by TigerAero
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    I've seen a lot of posts complaining that GW2 has no end-game recently.  But, to be honest, I really don't see how the end-game in GW2 is any worse than that in WoW.  However this could just be due to my inexperience with the end game in WoW, or my specific preferences...after all, the end game to WoW never appealed to me, so I never experienced it.

    So for those who think GW2 has a poor end game, could you please describe to me what you feel a good end game would be?  Maybe an example game?  I'm not saying this to be snide, I just honestly don't understand why people are complaining about this, and I want to understand.

     

    Once you hit 80 there's nothing other then spvp/wvw to get you to login to that specific character anymore.

    So there's nothing except a dynamically changing player driven environment to keep you logging in? That sounds a SHIT load better than raids.

    Dynamically changing player driven environment?? Are we playing the same game?!

     He's talking about world versus world.

     

    which is nothing more then flipping points, waiting on timer and getting loot. :P

  • TobiasGreyTobiasGrey Worcester, MAPosts: 166Member
    Originally posted by TigerAero
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by TigerAero
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    I've seen a lot of posts complaining that GW2 has no end-game recently.  But, to be honest, I really don't see how the end-game in GW2 is any worse than that in WoW.  However this could just be due to my inexperience with the end game in WoW, or my specific preferences...after all, the end game to WoW never appealed to me, so I never experienced it.

    So for those who think GW2 has a poor end game, could you please describe to me what you feel a good end game would be?  Maybe an example game?  I'm not saying this to be snide, I just honestly don't understand why people are complaining about this, and I want to understand.

     

    Once you hit 80 there's nothing other then spvp/wvw to get you to login to that specific character anymore.

    So there's nothing except a dynamically changing player driven environment to keep you logging in? That sounds a SHIT load better than raids.

    Dynamically changing player driven environment?? Are we playing the same game?!

     He's talking about world versus world.

     

    which is nothing more then flipping points, waiting on timer and getting loot. :P

    And there's nothing more to raids than hitting a monster until its dead. Boring.

     

    See, I can make something sound dumb by leaving out all the features too.

  • gimmesomegimmesome Rancho Cucamonga, CAPosts: 362Member

    Unfortunately, it seems that the mainstream crowd thinks "good end game" means nothing more than raiding for gear over and over until an expansion comes out with a new raid to grind over and over for even better gear.

     

    I personally don't buy it.       It's a treadmill.     

    To me, a good end game is not vertical progression, but instead, horizontal progression.      No endless chase to become bigger and stronger than everyone else.      

     

    Sandbox dynamics allow for this, as they don't limit the player to activities offered only by the development team(s).   However, with this comes the arguement that lore is ruined when you give players the tools to tailor the game world to their liking.    I think that is an excuse.    If developers didn't spend so much time and money trying to create the next big raid boss, perhaps they could focus on a more organic approach to the lore.   This would make the players who spend the time in their game feel very appreciated and gratified that some of the things they helped build or create or organize is now part of the official story.

     

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member
    Originally posted by TigerAero
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by TigerAero
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    I've seen a lot of posts complaining that GW2 has no end-game recently.  But, to be honest, I really don't see how the end-game in GW2 is any worse than that in WoW.  However this could just be due to my inexperience with the end game in WoW, or my specific preferences...after all, the end game to WoW never appealed to me, so I never experienced it.

    So for those who think GW2 has a poor end game, could you please describe to me what you feel a good end game would be?  Maybe an example game?  I'm not saying this to be snide, I just honestly don't understand why people are complaining about this, and I want to understand.

     

    Once you hit 80 there's nothing other then spvp/wvw to get you to login to that specific character anymore.

    So there's nothing except a dynamically changing player driven environment to keep you logging in? That sounds a SHIT load better than raids.

    Dynamically changing player driven environment?? Are we playing the same game?!

     He's talking about world versus world.

     

    which is nothing more then flipping points, waiting on timer and getting loot. :P

     I edited my post above after Yamota edited his...but my WvW experience isn't anywhere near how you describe it.  It's more about desperate struggles between servers to dominate.  I haven't seen any "keep trading" ala Ilum AT ALL in this game.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • AusareAusare adamstown, MDPosts: 850Member
    Sandbox as it stands now days means open world pvp. The least liked feature in mmo. So how does dynamic sandbox pve content get made?
  • TobiasGreyTobiasGrey Worcester, MAPosts: 166Member
    Originally posted by gimmesome

    Unfortunately, it seems that the mainstream crowd thinks "good end game" means nothing more than raiding for gear over and over until an expansion comes out with a new raid to grind over and over for even better gear.

    That's not the mainstream audience. That's the WoW audience. And past history shows ignoring them helps games a long long way, and listening to them will sink your game faster than you can blink.

  • TigerAeroTigerAero Fort Campbell, KYPosts: 127Member
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by TigerAero
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by TobiasGrey
    Originally posted by TigerAero
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    I've seen a lot of posts complaining that GW2 has no end-game recently.  But, to be honest, I really don't see how the end-game in GW2 is any worse than that in WoW.  However this could just be due to my inexperience with the end game in WoW, or my specific preferences...after all, the end game to WoW never appealed to me, so I never experienced it.

    So for those who think GW2 has a poor end game, could you please describe to me what you feel a good end game would be?  Maybe an example game?  I'm not saying this to be snide, I just honestly don't understand why people are complaining about this, and I want to understand.

     

    Once you hit 80 there's nothing other then spvp/wvw to get you to login to that specific character anymore.

    So there's nothing except a dynamically changing player driven environment to keep you logging in? That sounds a SHIT load better than raids.

    Dynamically changing player driven environment?? Are we playing the same game?!

     He's talking about world versus world.

     

    which is nothing more then flipping points, waiting on timer and getting loot. :P

    And there's nothing more to raids than hitting a monster until its dead. Boring.

     

    See, I can make something sound dumb by leaving out all the features too.

     

    But it's equally the truth. My guild, NXG, grab 30 to 40 people and we take the entire map area of our choosing then sit and wait on timer to flip (entire process is like 2 hours a night-max) and loot while we go.

     

    With a group of 30 to 40 it's quite easy to flip points sit on them and wait for teh epic lootz.

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