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Final nail in the coffin.

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  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Torgrim
    Originally posted by botrytis
    It is not the nail. Sorry - MMO's are niche games that cater to a smaller number of player. Many different types of business models will be supported. That is unless their business drops to 0 overnight and I don't think that will happen.

     

    MMOs are not niche game anymore sorry to break the bubble, they were niche post WoW.

    I don't know if that's true.

    i would say there are more people playing them before. Many more.

    but from what i see, and granted this is anecdotal evidence, the people I meet who even play video games, mostly play single player games or opt for board/pen and paper games. Or they play games like bazinga or angry birds.

    I think outside of places like PAX or Gen Con, the people I met who played online games could be counted on a hand and a half. These are people outside my social circle (of which only 3 play video games and only one plays an mmo which is WoW).

    Of that hand and a half, all but two solely played Wow. The last remaining two Consisted of a LOTRO player and a gamer guy who seemed to play everthing but other than wow didnt' really like mmo's but would try them out.

    I"m just not seeing mmo's being talked about as if they were commonplace. And among gamers I don't see a lot of them in my daily activity.

     

     

     

    All I was pointing out. I talk to people who play Halo and other games like that not MMO's.

     

    Thanks!

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • ZinzanZinzan NorthPosts: 1,351Member
    Originally posted by lordpenquin

    Is GW2 the final nail in the coffin of the western $15/month mmorpg?  Will there be any company that releases a game post GW2 that isn't free to play or buy to play?  Is any company foolish to attempt to charge a monthly fee for a new MMORGP?

     

     

    Thats cute, he doesn't realise GW2 is far from F2P.

    Give is it a few months, 6 tops and there will be a ~$50 x-pack....that plus ingame necessities such as bank slots, character slots etc and most players still wind up paying the equivalent of a monthly subs fee over a 12 month period :)

    It's just a different business model, no-one does anything for free these days.

    Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy :)

  • Bushi131Bushi131 of angelsPosts: 62Member

    It's about time consumer get their money worth, subs are from the past yet so many keep sucking it like it's better to pay, thinking me paying, it give me quality.

    Wel for the record, you paying it's just you paying, it doesn't change whatever they are doing with their games.

    Good game are good game and it goes the same for bad games. (means, bad games are bad games)

    Paying as nothing to do with the game, exept that most of the games studios will find new way to keep you paying, not for you to have fun just keep you paying and if you do have fun, well that is your luck.

     

    2 identical chairs one cheap, the other one really expensive, 100 people tried the chair , only 5 said that they where the same therefor taking the cheap one, the other 95% go figure because the expensive chair was more confortable.

    It was done and it is true.

     

    Get your money worth people, if you earned your money with work just don't give it away like this.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,587Member Uncommon

    what games since WoW have actually been worthy of a subscription?

    I don't think the decline in the P2P model is the model, I think it's the fact that people just don't like the games.

    EA blamed the sub model on it's failre of SWTOR.

    What are they gogin to say when they can't give the game away? 

    I wonder why the fact that we've had a slump of crappy games never even get's looked at as a factor for the decline in the model. Is it because so many people are looking for evidence to justify GW2 revenue model?

  • YakkinYakkin irvine, CAPosts: 919Member
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    what games since WoW have actually been worthy of a subscription?

    I don't think the decline in the P2P model is the model, I think it's the fact that people just don't like the games.

    EA blamed the sub model on it's failre of SWTOR.

    What are they gogin to say when they can't give the game away? 

    I wonder why the fact that we've had a slump of crappy games never even get's looked at as a factor for the decline in the model. Is it because so many people are looking for evidence to justify GW2 revenue model?

    Because it would mean admitting your product is crap and that you were trying to swindle people into buying a subpar product, which is the last thing any company wants to admit?

  • SirBalinSirBalin Joppa, MDPosts: 1,150Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lordpenquin

    Is GW2 the final nail in the coffin of the western $15/month mmorpg?  Will there be any company that releases a game post GW2 that isn't free to play or buy to play?  Is any company foolish to attempt to charge a monthly fee for a new MMORGP?

     

     

    This is just so funny how some people think that because they have an opinion, its the gospel.  I personally and most in the community I play with prefer pay to play.  Now if i'm paying and content doens't get added...sure theres a problem.

    Incognito
    www.incognito-gaming.us
    "You're either with us or against us"

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,204Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Enigmatus
    Originally posted by Drolkin

    15/month=More content updates, so no, it isn't the final nail, it's a different buisness model.

    You think there will be NEW content in GW2 next month?  Nope, because it isn't p2p.

    Watch, 2 years from now p2p games out now will have more new content than GW2.

    I cannot think of any P2P games off the top of my head, maybe except for RIFT, that even updates their content that fast. Hell, even WoW, the king of P2P MMOs, updates at the pace of a glacier going up a slight incline.

    RIFT is the only game I can think of that actually has kept up a decent content update schedule.  Most games seem to have banked content so they can release updates after their go live, but after a year or so they dwindle.  We'll see how RIFT does with their update schedule post Storm Legion.

    Personally I'm done with subs until they up the ante.  There are decent games out now that don't require a subscription and I'm happy with that.  I'll be watching to see how Blade and Soul, FFXIV, TSO, and other major title releases do in the next year or so as sub games.  I just don't think there is enoug room in the market for more than one or two sub games per them (ie: EVE and space, RIFT and WoW fantasy, etc).

  • rodingorodingo Posts: 2,346Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lordpenquin

    Is GW2 the final nail in the coffin of the western $15/month mmorpg?  Will there be any company that releases a game post GW2 that isn't free to play or buy to play?  Is any company foolish to attempt to charge a monthly fee for a new MMORGP?

     

     

    It's funny how many people missed what the OP wrote just becuase he mentioned "GW2".  They see (something something GW2), check to see if it's positive or negative, then respond in typical fashion.

    These forums are so polarized right now about anything GW2 related.  Can anyone remember a game that has stirred so much hater/fanboy emotion.  I don't know if I should be disgusted or laugh my arse off at a lot these threads or the replies from teh usual suspects.  Specially on a forum for a game they don't even play.  Weird? No...Typical? Yes...

     

    EDIT:

    I forgot to say something along the lines of,.."jeez can't someone state their opinion without being attacked?", as seen in defense of so many obvious troll threads.

    "If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  • Requiem1066Requiem1066 londonPosts: 274Member

     

    If the P2P model disapears then it will because of the consumer and not because of one single game .. The people willing to pay subs for games has been on the decline for years, even before GW2 came out and the fact is there are so many F2P games out now compared to a few years ago that people have options.

     

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  • MuntzMuntz Minneapolis, MNPosts: 332Member Uncommon

    The P2P model made sense when gear / communication cost for the service was high. That's no longer true but the tradition continues. Beleive me when I say many markets would love a consumer base that is used to and even expects a monthly fee. 

    The payment model has little to do with how good or bad a game its. There is no implied contract  in any payment method to say that profits will be injected back into player experience. The company does that all on there own for reputation with the goal to  get addional money. From my experience GW1 delivered I think GW2 will too.

  • ReklawReklaw Am.Posts: 6,476Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torgrim
    Originally posted by botrytis
    It is not the nail. Sorry - MMO's are niche games that cater to a smaller number of player. Many different types of business models will be supported. That is unless their business drops to 0 overnight and I don't think that will happen.

     

    MMOs are not niche game anymore sorry to break the bubble, they were niche post WoW.

    I still believe MMORPG's today are niche, but I do agree current MMO's are not.

     

  • dariuszpdariuszp PrzeworskPosts: 182Member
    Originally posted by lordpenquin

    Is GW2 the final nail in the coffin of the western $15/month mmorpg?  Will there be any company that releases a game post GW2 that isn't free to play or buy to play?  Is any company foolish to attempt to charge a monthly fee for a new MMORGP?

    It's all about quality my friend. Give me MMORPG that is a true sandbox MMO with high quality and lot of different stuff to do and I will gladly pay 15$/month. Even more.

    GW2 just rised the stakes. Because they provided quality like on one ever did and still they only require from you to buy the box.

  • HalandirHalandir nnPosts: 758Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Drolkin

    15/month=More content updates, so no, it isn't the final nail, it's a different buisness model.

    You think there will be NEW content in GW2 next month?  Nope, because it isn't p2p.

    Watch, 2 years from now p2p games out now will have more new content than GW2.

     

    You may be on to something there.

    A P2P game with monthly content updates and  "expansions" that are free to subscribers... Yeah that model might work but please tell me if we have any game (except, to an extent EVE) that actually does that? Oh right your game does not exist, I get it...

    I am certain a small amount of 15 $/€ a month games will exist in 2-3 years. NEW Mainstream/financially very successful ones: Not so much.

    Here's a hint: WoW has classleading customer support but out of every $15/month only $3 actually pays for gamedevelopment/support. (And "content updates" seems rather sparse looking in from outside WoW.)

    Contrary to popular belief a lot of people are smart enough to ask where the last $12 went...

     

     

    We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
    (repeat ad infinitum)

  • monster8memonster8me forest city, NCPosts: 25Member
    i dont think its the final nail however i hope it does influence some more quality b2p games on down the road
  • heartlessheartless Brooklyn, NYPosts: 4,993Member

    The subscription model is an outdated relic of the past when bandwith and server costs were very expensive. Now, they are so cheap that most companies combine them together with other misc. office expenses like printer ink and coffee filters on their earnings report.

    The reason we continue to pay subscription fees is because we've been conditioned to expect them. Most people actually associate subscription fees with quality, when it couldn't be further from the truth.

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  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member

    If a B2P game offers better content than a Sub based game, logic dictates the B2P title would win the consumer.

  • Kaelano1Kaelano1 Peoria, ILPosts: 375Member
    Originally posted by heartless

    The subscription model is an outdated relic of the past when bandwith and server costs were very expensive. Now, they are so cheap that most companies combine them together with other misc. office expenses like printer ink and coffee filters on their earnings report.

    The reason we continue to pay subscription fees is because we've been conditioned to expect them. Most people actually associate subscription fees with quality, when it couldn't be further from the truth.

    I would associate sub fees to recognition of a job well done in the distribution of continued fresh content, but yeh, lately that doesn't seem to be the case reliably, anywhere, huh.

  • AldersAlders Jack Burton'sPosts: 1,857Member Uncommon

    What about the other end of the spectrum?  How is GW2 affecting the F2P market?  How can those games, with their P2W cash shops and little updates, possibly compete with the quality of GW2?  How can all those converted MMO's to the FTP model possibly justify their silly class and content locks?  That's where i see the bar being raised first. 

     

  • Requiem1066Requiem1066 londonPosts: 274Member
    Originally posted by Alders

    What about the other end of the spectrum?  How is GW2 affecting the F2P market?  How can those games, with their P2W cash shops and little updates, possibly compete with the quality of GW2?  How can all those converted MMO's to the FTP model possibly justify their silly class and content locks?  That's where i see the bar being raised first. 

     

    By being FREE :p

    I would assume across the whole F2P market that more people play them than will ever play Gw2 or WoW for the simple fact they are free.

    image

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,204Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Alders

    What about the other end of the spectrum?  How is GW2 affecting the F2P market?  How can those games, with their P2W cash shops and little updates, possibly compete with the quality of GW2?  How can all those converted MMO's to the FTP model possibly justify their silly class and content locks?  That's where i see the bar being raised first. 

    A lot of things have been shoved under the F2P moniker.  A lot of those Freemium games either have heavy content gates like LotRO or core game systems opened only through a subscription (EQ2 and AoC).  I do agree with you that those games could be hit the hardest, but it depends on if they're being supported by a dedicated fan base or not.  If those niche games have a dedicated core that want to play in that world no matter what then the affect could be lessened.  However, they aren't going to garner the interest from the rest of the community.

    The ante is being upped all over the place and it is good for us, the gamers.

  • AldersAlders Jack Burton'sPosts: 1,857Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Alders

    What about the other end of the spectrum?  How is GW2 affecting the F2P market?  How can those games, with their P2W cash shops and little updates, possibly compete with the quality of GW2?  How can all those converted MMO's to the FTP model possibly justify their silly class and content locks?  That's where i see the bar being raised first. 

    The ante is being upped all over the place and it is good for us, the gamers.

     

    Completely agree.

  • gessekai332gessekai332 New York City, NYPosts: 877Member Common
    sub model is dead. in investors eyes, the only mmo that is able to be successful with this model is WoW, and that is an isolated case as no other mmorpg has or will be able to replicate that (including whatever new mmorpg blizzard plans to make in the future). Most investors/companies nowadays understand this trend and will put money into a game during the hype phase when the stock is the highest and pull out their money either right before launch or right after release (example: CEO of funcom), effectively putting the game on life support mode.  There is no incentive for most companies to do any work on the game after launch because that is where most of their money has been made (box sales), and sub numbers will almost always plummet after that.

    Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)

  • Kaelano1Kaelano1 Peoria, ILPosts: 375Member
    Originally posted by gessekai332
     There is no incentive for most companies to do any work on the game after launch because that is where most of their money has been made (box sales), and sub numbers will almost always plummet after that.

    This has been my argument with B2P. My logic is perfect. It's the "other developers", screwing up consistent content release, that are proving me wrong.

  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,232Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by botrytis
    It is not the nail. Sorry - MMO's are niche games that cater to a smaller number of player. Many different types of business models will be supported. That is unless their business drops to 0 overnight and I don't think that will happen.

    yea, 10 million users on one game are niche *g* and lets not count all those asians playing l2 and other games.

     

    what are the maingames in your opinion? console games? :P

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • MithrandolirMithrandolir The Deep Woods, NJPosts: 1,698Member Uncommon

    I am thoroughly engrossed in GW2 and loving every second of it, and I am truly thankful that a game that I will likely end up playing for a very long time happens to be sans monthly fees. But I would be playing it regardless, it's value to me exceeds that of monthly mmorpg subscription fees.

    When the next wave of mmorpgs releases, I will judge them not on their subscription model (or lack thereof) but instead on their fun factor to me, overall value to me.

    I'll play a game I find great/fun whether it has a fee or not. I will not play a game that I do not enjoy just because it's free of monrhtly fees.

     

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